General PEELies Discussion

[on:]

Hi. Many of you already know that the PEELies for 2011 will be run by myself, and my council of helper-elves. For those of you who didn't know this, now you do.

I see that [-mArc-] has already posted an extract from the minutes of the last meeting, so most of you will now be up to speed with the way that the PEELies is going to work this year. The process is still under refinement, so next year it might differ again and the year after that the whole thing might be thrown out of the window in favour of a gameshow where people compete for fabulous prizes and to stay out of the shark tank.
So... here's what's going on. This year, the council consists of the following people:

• Nutmeg - Nutmeg is a moderator for this forum. Her role will be to close what must be closed, open what ought to be opened, and to delete whatever she thinks is extraneous bullshit. This has almost certainly come as as much of a surprise to her as it has to you. Be gentle with her as she tests the limit of her new powers and responsibilities.
  
• Xanfor - He's also a moderator. His role will also be that of providing closure where closure is called for, begin that which begs for beginning, and to enforce the tortuously strict anti-spam laws that will be in effect.
  
• i_c_weiner - Weiner's still running The Madness, so he's not going to be asked to do anything too strenuous. But he'll be involved in the council's dark mutterings when we convene to make decisions. Expect manipulations most machiavellian from this one!
  
• SpaceMaN - SpaceMaN will be putting pen to paper to honour the winners with the rest of the council, but might not show up for the regularly scheduled secret conclaves being held on IRC. As long as he reads his PMs and follows the instructions though, you should see his somewhat unique stamp on aspects of the proceedings.
  
• Bend-err - He will be attending the secret meetings to try and throw the rest of the council members off-balance. His role in this event will be to weigh up the pros and cons of various situations, and get drunk before making suggestions involving blackjack and hookers..

There are a couple of other people who'll be helping out, but these folks have ever-so-kindly agreed to donate their time and some of their blood to run the PEELies this year. What we decide as a council will be law. There will be no arguing, or I'll be unleashing the psychic crocodiles to hunt you down in the spirit plane.

Most of the speechwriting will be done by these folks, and they'll be helping to put their own stamp on the awards themselves, too. They'll be helping to finalise the category list over the next couple of days, and they'll be helping me make some key decisions, such as whether to put the poison in the kool-aid or the jello shots.

Expect great things from them!

Spam in this thread will be deleted... but I'll leave it open for comments just in case somebody actually has a cromulent question or something wise and relevant to say. If you're involved with the PEELies (or want to be) but don't see your name on the list, come into futuramachat on IRC and I'll give you instructions on how to join the PEELies chatroom (it's quite simple and painless but you do need a chat client). If you're on the list, you should be in there whenever you're online from now until the end of December. That's where decisions will be made and such. If you're on the council and not in the chatroom, you've effectively lost your voice and disenfranchised yourself

[Reply #1 on:]

Questions, comments, anything that doesn't fit in other threads, all belongs here. Spam or general uselessness will be deleted. Posts may be ruthlessly edited.

Enjoy.

[Reply #2 on:]

If I'm gonna win the Most Prolific Poster award for spam then I don't want it. Not that it is spam, but most people think all my posts are.

[Reply #3 on:]

What do we even mean by "Most Prolific Poster" anyway, though? The connotation seems almost negative to me in the first place (like how, say, James Patterson is a really prolific author--but that doesn't make him a good one). Quality over quantity and whatnot.

For my part, though: I nominated you, Danny, because you simply post a lot. The majority of your posts are perfectly fine, I think. Maybe some of them can be considered spammy, but I don't mean the nomination offensively and shall rescind it if you've taken it as such.

[Reply #4 on:]

No it's fine. But yeah, I don't get why I'm being nominated if it's for a not-so-good reason.

[Reply #5 on:]

What do we even mean by "Most Prolific Poster" anyway, though? The connotation seems almost negative to me in the first place (like how, say, James Patterson is a really prolific author--but that doesn't make him a good one). Quality over quantity and whatnot.

That's so very true. I took it to mean quantity AND quality, but that's only because tnuk said he doesn't want to reward bad behavior. The title "Most Prolific Poster" doesn't exactly imply that the posts are worth reading, though, just that there are lots of them.
 

[Reply #6 on:]

That's so very true. I took it to mean quantity AND quality, but that's only because tnuk said he doesn't want to reward bad behavior. The title "Most Prolific Poster" doesn't exactly imply that the posts are worth reading, though, just that there are lots of them.

If that's the case I'm bound to be nominated...

[Reply #7 on:]

Don't worry DannyJC13. To be honest you didn't even come to mind when I voted for that category (I don't mean that in a bad way, just a neutral way). You did however come to mind for the merchandise category, which I'm sure you'd be pleased with as it shows how passionate you are about everything relating to the show...

[Reply #8 on:]

If I'm gonna win the Most Prolific Poster award for spam then I don't want it. Not that it is spam, but most people think all my posts are.

In that case, just claim you were so awesome that even your spam was better than other's folks insightful posts...

[Reply #9 on:]

Don't worry DannyJC13. To be honest you didn't even come to mind when I voted for that category (I don't mean that in a bad way, just a neutral way). You did however come to mind for the merchandise category, which I'm sure you'd be pleased with as it shows how passionate you are about everything relating to the show...

Thanks Otis, yeah Randi nominated me in that category too.

In that case, just claim you were so awesome that even your spam was better than other's folks insightful posts...

They may break my face if I say that...

[Reply #10 on:]

If there are specific on-top awards, and then general awards for both, shouldn't there be specific off-topic awards too?

[Reply #11 on:]

There are, and am coming soon, Josh.

[Reply #12 on:]

If there are specific on-top awards, and then general awards for both, shouldn't there be specific off-topic awards too?

No. In fact, I'm amalgamating all awards into one PEELie. It'll just be called "The Official 2011 PEELie" and will be given in recognition of general excellence. To me.

Um, I mean, there will be off-topic awards. The on-topic and general awards are technically more important, and my brief is not to let the off-topic stuff overshadow them. So there will not be a huge number. There will be more awards this year than in any other year though, Josh.

The reason the nominations for the off-topic stuff haven't been opened yet is that the list is still under review. I've sent the almost-final list out to the council members, but noticed a couple of potential niggles that I'd like to iron out (and have been doing so with the help of wikiPEELia).

Feel free to send in your on-topic nominations in the meantime. You can do so via the threads, or via PM. There's no email nominating this year, so you don't have to worry about me harvesting your email addresses.  It'll probably be a couple of days before the off-topic nominations are officially open, because there are still details to take care of.

[Reply #13 on:]

Will voting still be done by e-mail or PM once nominations are done? Or possibly just by having people post what their vote is in a thread (with no post editing allowed)?  Because honestly I don't think they should be done via PEE polls. You know, what with fake accounts and all, the fact that we know people use them for voting, and that (from my experience on the PEELies council the last several years) people seem to be more obsessed with turning the tide of PEELies to their whim than with POTM or anything else.

PEEL PM would probably be a really good way to do it. That way you don't have to remind people to include their username in the subject line and there's no chance of people voting as somebody they're not.

[Reply #14 on:]

Turning it to our whim? We'd never.

[Reply #15 on:]

Wasn't at all suggesting the people in charge would. Just saying that to have as fair a vote turnout as possible, PEE polls simply aren't that reliable, as they're easily abused and very difficult to tell when they have been, especially when fake accounts are at play.

Pretty sure that's the reason polls haven't been used in the PEELies for the several years before last year.

[Reply #16 on:]

People will vote in the polls and the poll results will be taken into account when the council make their decision. Winning the poll does not mean automatically winning the award. That should take away any motivation for people to vote using fake accounts.

[Reply #17 on:]

Taken into account how?

[Reply #18 on:]

I wanted to draw and scan a huge complex machine and post it saying "WITH THIS!" but I can't find a piece of blank paper. So you'll just have to imagine it.

[Reply #19 on:]

Here you go tnuk:

[Reply #20 on:]

If you're involved with the PEELies (or want to be) but don't see your name on the list, come into futuramachat on IRC and I'll give you instructions on how to join the PEELies chatroom (it's quite simple and painless but you do need a chat client).

Three days later, apparently this offer has expired. Thought people should know this.

[Reply #21 on:]

People will vote in the polls and the poll results will be taken into account when the council make their decision. Winning the poll does not mean automatically winning the award. That should take away any motivation for people to vote using fake accounts.

Or any motivation to vote at all. Why bother voting if in the end, the Council has the ultimate say on who wins? Doesn't that make the entire voting process superfluous?

If the Council gets to decide who gets what award in the end, then forget the voting process, since nobody's votes will make a difference. Have us do the nominations, then just let the Council look at the list of the six people with the most nominations for each category and decide among themselves who it should be out of those.

Unless you have an actual formulaic plan for how number of votes will actually affect who the Council chooses, in which case maybe you should explain it to us so we understand why we're voting at all. Otherwise this plan makes no sense.

[Reply #22 on:]

The problem here is that you just compared two things that are distinctly different.

[Reply #23 on:]

I think the "taking into account" does not mean the Jury does decide at random, completely ignoring the pools.

The way I get it (e.g. "Greatest Fry Fan" Award):

- There are two Peelers, both made many posts about Fry. The Jury would have chosen one the them, but the poll favors the other. Okay...if it's justified, the poll result can be used.
- The poll is won by a Peeler who made only ONE post about Fry in the whole year. It's rather obvious that this result does not make to much sense, and the Jury will have to decide.

(TNUK, please do correct me if my example is not really fitting...)

[Reply #24 on:]

Had you done what tnuk wrote you might have had a chance, but instead you just jumped into the channel criticising the way we run the PEELies, surely you can see the error of you way here?

[Reply #25 on:]

Had you done what tnuk wrote you might have had a chance, but instead you just jumped into the channel criticising the way we run the PEELies, surely you can see the error of you way here?

You have high expectations in Josh.  I admire that.

[Reply #26 on:]

Yeah, the offer's still open to anybody who knows how to follow instructions.

[Reply #27 on:]

So basically the default winner will always be the winner of the poll, unless the Council has an outstanding reason why that shouldn't be the case? Will the Council have to explain their decisions to us, or will the poll results never be revealed?

[Reply #28 on:]

Removing posts I don't feel are necessary. Ahoyhoy!

Inquisitor Hein (I'ma call you Hein from now on because the full username is way too long) - the gist of it, yes. If we feel that the overall winner of a certain poll has gotten there through trickery, fake accounts and general bullshit, then they will not be awarded the PEELie for said award. I can't see it happening though, because last year almost all of the polls matched our predictions anyway - with a few surprising winners who fit the bill in the end just as much as the predicted member had.

Josh: I'm telling you nothing.



You. Specifically you.

[Reply #29 on:]

Actually I had the same suspicions reading this before Josh chimed in. I want to be motivated to vote, but if it just might be overturned anyway, why bother...nominations should be made and then it should just be left up to the Council, or votes should be cast the oldskool way, through PM or email.

[Reply #30 on:]

Like I say, the chances of the overall votes from PEELers being overturned are slim. We will take everything into account, unless we think you've all gone batshit crazy by naming ilovebender.com the most missed, for instance.

Yeah.

[Reply #31 on:]

I was about to nominate KurtPikachu2001 for best fanfiction writer...

[Reply #32 on:]

No Randi I think poll is still useful. There should be a poll for every award. Maybe just a poll where the votes are hidden. I think It will be very useful in helping them make the decision. I think all PEELers should have some kind of input, not just the council. However, it's also a good idea that the poll is not the deciding factor, as voting on PEEL can be very messy with fake accounts and such. And then it's not as much of a popularity contest.

Basically, tnuk's original plan described earlier for choosing a winner should stay that way.

[Reply #33 on:]

Inquisitor Hein (I'ma call you Hein from now on because the full username is way too long) - the gist of it, yes. If we feel that the overall winner of a certain poll has gotten there through trickery, fake accounts and general bullshit, then they will not be awarded the PEELie for said award. I can't see it happening though, because last year almost all of the polls matched our predictions anyway - with a few surprising winners who fit the bill in the end just as much as the predicted member had.

Like I say, the chances of the overall votes from PEELers being overturned are slim. We will take everything into account, unless we think you've all gone batshit crazy by naming ilovebender.com the most missed, for instance.

Sounds good to me.

I give permission for this contest to continue.

[Reply #34 on:]

Like I say, the chances of the overall votes from PEELers being overturned are slim. We will take everything into account, unless we think you've all gone batshit crazy by naming ilovebender.com the most missed, for instance.

Yeah.

Although I'm sure you're joking, I see no good reason why ilovebender.com couldn't be considered for most missed Peeler.  Although there were a few people who did not enjoy the cut of his jib, he did have an interesting username and he was rather outgoing.

No Randi I think poll is still useful. There should be a poll for every award. Maybe just a poll where the votes are hidden. I think It will be very useful in helping them make the decision. I think all PEELers should have some kind of input, not just the council. However, it's also a good idea that the poll is not the deciding factor, as voting on PEEL can be very messy with fake accounts and such. And then it's not as much of a popularity contest.

Basically, tnuk's original plan described earlier for choosing a winner should stay that way.

I don't believe that fake accounts are nearly as much of a problem as people seem to suggest.  However, all of the methods have their faults; the polls will always be anonymous and it's possible to manipulate the outcome.  Emailing the votes in require far more effort on the part of the council to count, and can easily be manipulated by the council members if not outright ignored, but only if all of the council members who can see the votes allow it.  The last method of having the council just pick who they want to win refutes the idea that this is something run by peelers for peelers.

I'm of the opinion that including a majority of peel on some of the details and explaining the process to them in some adequate way is most reasonable.

[Reply #35 on:]

I'm of the opinion that including a majority of peel on some of the details and explaining the process to them in some adequate way is most reasonable.

The details of the process don't really matter to the people who aren't on the council. But since you're on the council and I can't trust you not to share the information with people, here is as much detail as anybody needs:

I'll probably reset the polls just before closing them, and share the poll results with the council only. The council will then deliberate, and either accept the result of the poll or propose that a certain candidate should win despite the poll results.

If the council feel that the results of the poll, an explanation as to why the award was not given to the poll winner, or even both of these should be kept out of the thread, then that's what will happen. Basically, the popular vote is pretty much just a second, far more popular method of nominating people for consideration. Ultimately, the council will make the decision of who is awarded a PEELie, and for what. This means that your vote is extremely important, as it gives the council an idea of the majority opinion on PEEL. It gives some idea as to what the support for their decision is likely to be.

In practice, the vast majority of awards are likely to go to the poll winners. If there are close calls, if there are cases where perhaps an unpopular PEELer has been overshadowed by a less deserving (but more popular) PEELer, then the council will make the decision to award the trophy to the candidate who is objectively determined as the worthier, rather than the one who got all the votes simply because PEEL collectively thought they were being "cool" by voting for them. This is a big part of why we're wanting the reasons behind your nominations.

The council will be looking at nomination reasons, at the statements made by people in the voting threads, and the overall "flavour" that the result has compared to these. Please don't think for a second that your votes will be unimportant or will not carry any weight. They just won't be the final word on the matter.

There are several awards that have been pre-decided. Some PEELers have also been ruled out as being elegible for awards (Inactivity, registration date, lack of any real impact, etc, being some of the criteria on which these were assessed), and some PEELers will probably get put onto polls simply to make up the numbers. All in all, the process requires careful consideration, and the fact is that a poll of sheer numbers doesn't always accurately reflect the truth of a situation.

There's also the possibility for ties, and the potential for some of the on-topic awards not to get voted on because maybe all the people who are voting simply don't care enough about who is the best fanfiction writer. These were factors in the decision to transfer the actual decision back to the council this year.

Plus, there are always going to be a bunch of morons out to screw things up for everybody. If we made all the polls with six options and had option 6 as "TEST. DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS OPTION", there would be at least one vote for it on each poll by the end of voting.

At the end of the day, I'm not only running the PEELies to a set of guidelines from [-mArc-] and to a set of inherited and often contradictory standards from previous years, I'm also trying to make sure that the PEELies actually makes the board's longstanding and deserving contributors feel that they're appreciated, rather than simply handing out meaningless accolades to people we all like. Whilst the latter would certainly be quite a popular decision, I think it's contrary to the aim of the PEELies: to recognise and reward excellence in various areas within the community.

With that in mind, please note that the council may well be open to bribery, and should you feel that you deserve a particular award (or just covet it), then you should probably try persuading a council member to argue your case when it comes to deliberation.

[Reply #36 on:]

So are we gonna get a Lifetime Achievement Award one of these years?

[Reply #37 on:]

You're gonna get whichever awards we feel like awarding this year. And you'll like it! And then you'll finish your tequila so we can have some celebratory beers, and you'll like it!

[Reply #38 on:]

So are we gonna get a Lifetime Achievement Award one of these years?

PEEL isn't a lifetime old yet. Don't rush into these things. You can only give one of those out per lifetime, after all.

[Reply #39 on:]

Ralph Snart is eventually going to end up with several of those.