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Author Topic: The old "Everything is worse now" discussion - General Futurama Discussion. SPOILER ALERT  (Read 22876 times)
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Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #400 on: 08-21-2011 19:11 »

Although no 6B episode has reached the high standard of TLPJF, the average of the second half of the season has been far higher...

Although I agree that no 6B ep has reached the lofty heights of TLPJF, I do think that Möbius Dick comes close. That ep is my second favourite out of the entire Season 6 batch, and it certainly is an example of greatness within 6B...
spira

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« Reply #401 on: 08-21-2011 19:13 »

Mobius Dick was good, Egg Man was very good, and the last three all look like they're going to be excellent. I'm definitely enjoying 6B, though of the two parts of 6 I am not sure which one I prefer.
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #402 on: 08-21-2011 19:15 »

I'm sure once 6B has fully aired there will be a thread to discuss such things laff...
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

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« Reply #403 on: 08-21-2011 19:17 »
« Last Edit on: 08-21-2011 19:18 »

6B has been a big disappointment so far,

Way too many people have been saying this, I think it's been better than 6A.

That's how I feel.  I've really wanted to like 6B so far, but I really can't.    There just haven't been enough episodes that I genuinely enjoyed watching and wanted to watch again.  Now I have to make myself watch the episodes a second time in the hope i will enjoy them more (which usually isn't the case, sadly.)   Sure 6A had some duds like IAGDL, TDVC and AOTKA, but there were enough episodes that I really enjoyed to make up for them like TLPJF, TPOB, PI, TDK and LN.)  Even if the last 3 episodes are complete knockouts, the number of mediocre or episodes I disliked will far outweigh the ones i really enjoyed.  Sure its quality not quantity, but thats how I feel.  A season should be consistently good, and its better to produce four or five great episodes, rather then have 20 lousy ones and 2 great or solid ones.

One thing I will say (again) is that a lot of creativity has gone into the animation and art style.  (MD and Neutopia had some breathtaking backdrops and animation.)  I don't think it's meaningless eye candy, a lot of thought has gone into creating these worlds and breathing life into them.  I didn't enjoy ACO all that much, but the evolving robot planetoid was just GORGEOUS, and managed to keep becoming more creative and beautiful, until it reached a crescendo in the lovely 1920s robot city.  

Speaking of ACO, I wonder what happened to Dr Widnar.  Did she end up evolving into a gas creature, or did she land on another planet and have her body clock slowing down?  It would be nice to see her in a future episode, prodding all the squishy meaty carbon based lifeforms.
Gorky

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« Reply #404 on: 08-21-2011 19:31 »

I think 6B has had a lot more average episodes than 6A had, but not as many spectacular ones. 6A had a few big duds ("Proposition Infinity" and the Holiday Spectacular come to mind), but it also had TLPJF and "The Prisoner of Benda," which are among the best episodes of the series. This season, meanwhile, has had consistently entertaining episodes (with the exception of "The Silence of the Clamps," which I kind of hated), but none that have been real knock-outs. I'd say that it's unfair to compare season 6A to season 6B, since that's like comparing the first eleven episodes of season three with the last eleven episodes of season three; this batch of twenty-six episodes was produced all at the same time, so I think it makes the most sense to judge the season as a whole.

Then again, I'm kind of a nonsensical person, so my idea of good sense may be way off the mark.
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #405 on: 08-21-2011 19:50 »

On the whole I believe 6B so far is slightly worse, but not by much because 6A had some very bad eps too. They both have amazing eps like TLFJF and Möbius Dick, but they both have crap like Holiday Craptacular and Yo Leela Leela. As Gorky has pointed out, it's not entirely fair to compare them at this point. I, like many believe that the last few eps have the potential to be the best! Not long to find out...
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

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« Reply #406 on: 08-21-2011 19:57 »

True, but what am I saying, even if all 3 of the last ones are all TLPJF level, the overall quality will still not be as good as that of 6a.  There will still be less solid episodes then there were duds, which is the opposite of 6a.
homerjaysimpson

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« Reply #407 on: 08-21-2011 20:00 »

Worse season ever unless the last 3 episodes are any good. The biggest problem is too many f*cking montages in every dam show this season.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

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« Reply #408 on: 08-21-2011 20:04 »

Worse season ever unless the last 3 episodes are any good. The biggest problem is too many f*cking montages in every dam show this season.

Montages?  Uusally Futurama's montages are hilarious (Fry am the Egg Man, Bend Her, I Meatbag, Late Philip J Fry) Heartwarming (Leela's Homeworld and Jurassic Bark) or both (Bendless Love, A Flight to Remember).   I can't really think of many in this season, but montages are one thing the Futurama crew do very well.
spira

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« Reply #409 on: 08-21-2011 20:05 »

I feel like 6A was all over the place whereas 6B has been consistently around 7.5/10, with exceptions like Neutopia (lower) and Egg Man (higher). They average out to be the same.

I like the montages.
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #410 on: 08-21-2011 20:08 »
« Last Edit on: 08-21-2011 20:16 »

True, but what am I saying, even if all 3 of the last ones are all TLPJF level, the overall quality will still not be as good as that of 6a.  There will still be less solid episodes then there were duds, which is the opposite of 6a.

If the last three were all TLPJF level (top ten eps of all time quality for me) then holy fricken' molly it'd easily trump 6A. I highly doubt that all three will be, and even if only one of them was I'd be more than happy, but all three? Well, then 6B would definitely take the lead for me no question...

Worse season ever unless the last 3 episodes are any good. The biggest problem is too many f*cking montages in every dam show this season.

I agree, I dislike the overuse of montages too, they fuck me right off as well. They can be used well in moderation, but it's been too much lately. I mean, this is one of the major problems with modern Simpsons, we don’t need it plaguing Futurama as well no no...
futurefreak

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« Reply #411 on: 08-21-2011 21:10 »

I rather enjoy the montages, the series started strong with them like in Brannigan Begin Again, The Deep South, The Cyber House Rules, Leela's Homeworld...etc.
I think a consequence of airing the episodes out of order is that there was some character overload towards the start of the season (a lot of Scruffy, for example), and it's thinned out as the season has progressed.

But Scruffy has been prominent throughout, not just the near the start...
He's been in I would guess more than half the 6B episodes. That's about as much as he appeared throughout the original run. They overused him way too much, and now his character is burnt out. I'd rather prefer not to see him again until like, the final final episode, because whereas before I used to love Scruffy now I just find him a tad repetitive and annoying hmpf

So far on a whole I much rather enjoy the 6A episodes to 6B. Nothing can compare to The Late Philip J. Fry, even in the original run, it was so perfectly executed and well thought out. I also loved Lethal Inspection, it was great insight into Hermes character that didn't involve his accountant bureaucrating (since that background has pretty much been explored). The other episodes were good too, there wasn't one I really couldn't stand, there were a few I think I may have thought were "okay" but their jokes in the episode are what saved them from being terrible.

This run is completely different. None of these storylines are making sense to me (notably All the Presidents Heads and The Tip of the Zoidberg), they feel hastily written and not thought out at all. I did enjoy Law and Oracle very much, I think that was my favorite so far this year. It was funny, had good integration of secondary characters, and had a nice story to be told of Fry actually doing something not stupid - I liked seeing a rare noble side of him.

I really enjoyed Fry Am the Egg Man too - it had a nice little story of Fry wanting to take care of the egg, but for a dark reason, which to me is the essence of Futurama humor. The creature was drawn well, he was weird but at the same time cute, I loved it. And integrating a visit to a foreign planet was a good move to bring in some crowd perspective on the situation. I really liked this episode too.

Most of the other episodes though were either just "okay" or didn't like at all. Yo Leela Leela is the worst episode ever conocted, written, and played out in the Futuramaverse. It was very Simpsony, that is something I would have expected Marge's character to do. It was bland, boring, and not excitingly futuristic at all, which is why I started watching Futurama to begin with. Yes it involved another planet, but you can't just throw that into the plot to "kind of" make it a space story; Fry Am the Egg Man had another planet too, but the story was already so well integrated with sci fi that them going to the other planet didn't seem just haphazardly thrown in there at last minute. On top of, Leela's character was all over the place in that episode.

I agree with what some are saying, that many of these episodes are stories that "don't need to be told" - The Silence of the Clamps, while it had some funny points and I did enjoy just watching it, involved a Clamps story that could have been left on the back burner. The Tip of the Zoidberg story between Professor and Zoidy could have been told much better, I found the whole story flawed and their reasoning behind the conclusion too unbelievable. Mobius Dick - despite the awesome but too short Firefly reference - is also an episode I could pass over. I know I am in the minority on that one, but it was just too pointless for me to enjoy, maybe because of what they had done to Leela's character throughout this season.

There were just too many episodes that made me cringe watching them this year, as opposed to last year where I genuinely enjoyed most of them (even Holiday Spectacular despite them not indicating that it was a What If episode mad ).   
cyber_turnip

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« Reply #412 on: 08-21-2011 21:27 »

When I feel like a montage works, I love it, but I often find them quite jarring in the show and I think it is partly due to the over-use.

I love the montages in The Late Philip J. Fry, Lethal Inspection and The Tip of the Zoidberg for instance -they all got the right choices of music for their respective emotions and what have you...
Other montages please me less so. I find the one in That Darn Katz! and Proposition Infinity a bit off-putting, but I don't know if it's just the music because I find some of the gags quite funny.
DannyJC13

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« Reply #413 on: 08-21-2011 21:28 »

Hating an entire season just because of some montages? Bit much...
flesheatingbull

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« Reply #414 on: 08-21-2011 21:32 »

FATE was brilliant,

It's FATEM. Egg Man. Not Eggman.

I apologise for nothing!
DannyJC13

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« Reply #415 on: 08-21-2011 21:37 »

I Meatbag,

Whaaaat?! You mean I, Roommate?
futurefreak

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« Reply #416 on: 08-21-2011 21:43 »
« Last Edit on: 08-21-2011 21:52 »

I agree with Cyber Turnip, the choice of music does make a difference. The episodes I mentioned (Brannigan Begin Again, The Deep South, The Cyber House Rules, Leela's Homeworld) all had perfect music synced to the animation. Some, like the one at the end of Jurassic Bark, are especially tearjerkers.

I'll have to go back and watch the ones post Season 6 to see if I noticed any that felt off to me.
DannyJC13

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« Reply #417 on: 08-21-2011 21:45 »

I noticed The Silence of the Clamps had some great new music in the PE turn arounds. big grin
Svip

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« Reply #418 on: 08-21-2011 22:07 »

I Meatbag,

Whaaaat?! You mean I, Roommate?

I, Meatbag is Act I of "Anthology of Interest II".  Although both has a montage, so I am not sure.
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #419 on: 08-21-2011 22:23 »

I think the balance of montages in the original run was just right. Some of them were done so well that they were actually episode highlights (see Leela's Homeworld for example). In the new run, some of them are good, but a lot of them seem useless. A lot of the criticism with these news eps is that they try to cram too much into such a short amount of time...

Here's an idea, how about cutting the montage and actually getting some of the more worthwhile and integral plot points sorted. Perhaps then it might not seem so forced and certain pacing problems could be improved confused...
futurefreak

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« Reply #420 on: 08-21-2011 22:49 »

I just watched The Series Has Landed the other night. Wow, what a difference in the pacing, as you guys were saying. The show could actually breathe, and focus on those important moments like when Fry is outside the lunar lander and Leela says to him, "Fry, look around. It's just a crummy plastic flag and a dead man's tracks in the dust." And you have that lengthy moment of disappointment from Fry.

These episodes feel like they are trying to tell too much in a short span of time. Cut out the extravagant unnecessary plotlines, and focuse on one storytelling goal. And if you have to, KISS (keep it simple, stupid) because sometimes the most basic of plots (like Fry getting excited to explore the moon in The Series Has Landed and Leela brushing this off) are often the most real to watch and be connected to.

I know with the development of the series that you can't have a basic plot like that one anymore because Fry isn't new to the future, but do something analagous to that now. The Tip of the Zoidberg was all over the map with the Yetiism and hypermalaria and the Professor and Zoidberg relationship. It should have been kept simple - in retrospect, I kinda see the whole Yeti plot a little unnecessary, aside from the fact to show that the Professor wasn't actually dying. But that could have easily been dealt with a number of ways, instead of bringing this big white monster into the fray. I would have enjoyed more focus on the characters than additional subplots like that.
cyber_turnip

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« Reply #421 on: 08-21-2011 22:51 »

I Meatbag,

Whaaaat?! You mean I, Roommate?

I, Meatbag is Act I of "Anthology of Interest II".  Although both has a montage, so I am not sure.

I imagine that SpaceGoldfish meant "I, Meatbag" as it had a spectacularly awesome montage containing one of Futurama's finest moments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uha4yRj4Z8
Gorky

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« Reply #422 on: 08-21-2011 22:53 »

I think montages have been used so much in the new run precisely because the run-time is shorter now than it was years ago on Fox. It's easier and more efficient to move the plot along with a thirty-second montage of various scenes than to write one three-minute long scene that advances the plot in a similar manner but much more slowly. Or at least that's my take. I do agree that they've been overused and are kind of hit-or-miss in terms of quality.
Svip

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« Reply #423 on: 08-21-2011 22:55 »

@futurefreak:  Watch a season 3 or 4 episode, the pacing is much different from season 1.
Gorky

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« Reply #424 on: 08-21-2011 23:01 »

I think the pacing of the first two episodes is actually much different from what follows, possibly because those two episodes are introductory. I do love those quiet moments that futurefreak is talking about, though; we haven't gotten a lot of those this season, which is part of the reason I loved "Fry Am the Egg Man"--it had great pacing, and there were a few quieter, more emotional moments.
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #425 on: 08-21-2011 23:05 »

I think montages have been used so much in the new run precisely because the run-time is shorter now than it was years ago on Fox. It's easier and more efficient to move the plot along with a thirty-second montage of various scenes than to write one three-minute long scene that advances the plot in a similar manner but much more slowly. Or at least that's my take. I do agree that they've been overused and are kind of hit-or-miss in terms of quality.

This is probably one of the reasons, which also explains the overuse of montages in The Simpsons these days; however I find that when they are overused they are a cheap way of trying to put things across instead of doing things properly. When it works, it's because it enriches the episode and often has some sort of emotional resonance, or is choc full of great gags. When it doesn’t, it ruins the flow of an episode and leaves cheap and unpleasant aftertaste. Less is more...
futurefreak

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« Reply #426 on: 08-21-2011 23:06 »

Svip: I didn't feel Season 3 or Season 4 episodes were so rushed that the story suffered though. The pacing is way faster than Season One, sure, but it didn't affect the development of episodes like Spanish Fry or The Farnsworth Parabox. Both told excellently and each had a much to say, hell the plot of Spanish Fry completely took a detour midway through and it still worked!
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

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« Reply #427 on: 08-21-2011 23:44 »
« Last Edit on: 08-21-2011 23:45 »

I Meatbag,

Whaaaat?! You mean I, Roommate?

I, Meatbag is Act I of "Anthology of Interest II".  Although both has a montage, so I am not sure.

I imagine that SpaceGoldfish meant "I, Meatbag" as it had a spectacularly awesome montage containing one of Futurama's finest moments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uha4yRj4Z8

Goria Esteban might write atrocious children's books, but Conga is on my ipod because of Futurama.  Along with Year In the Year 2525 and Baby Love Child.   One thing Futurama does well is pair great music with great montages.

That Darn Katz had a great montage, but it deserved some good music.  

One of my favorite non Futurama montages is in American Dad, when you see Francine's mundane existance as a housewife slowly grinding her down, (the smiley face breakfast she makes every morning for her family slowly starts to turn into a sad one, the bacon smile turns into a frown, and the fried egg eyes start to have ketchup tears), and develops into a crescendo with her smiling at a monarch butterfly, which then gets splatted by her son.  All the while Mr Blue Sky by the Electric Light Orchestra is playing.

I could actually go on and on about my favorite Futurama montages. Many of them are classics, and let's face it, with the shorter running times, they are a great way to compress many different jokes and plot points into a much shorter span. One thing Futurama does exceptionally well, is montages.
flesheatingbull

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« Reply #428 on: 08-22-2011 00:13 »

no 'Bend it'?
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #429 on: 08-22-2011 00:32 »

I could actually go on and on about my favorite Futurama montages. Many of them are classics, and let's face it, with the shorter running times, they are a great way to compress many different jokes and plot points into a much shorter span. One thing Futurama does exceptionally well, is montages.

I still strongly object to them using montages simply due to shorter run times. They should only be used sparingly when required to enrich an episode, not as a way to condense things. It is entirely possible to write and re-write an episode so that it doesn't require a montage as a lazy way out, even one with a shorter run time...

It really shouldn't be used for this purpose alone, it's a dangerous thing and it's already grating on at least one person more than me. They should either stop trying to condense so much into such a short time, or cut the fat more carefully...
cyber_turnip

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« Reply #430 on: 08-22-2011 00:46 »

I Meatbag,

Whaaaat?! You mean I, Roommate?

I, Meatbag is Act I of "Anthology of Interest II".  Although both has a montage, so I am not sure.

I imagine that SpaceGoldfish meant "I, Meatbag" as it had a spectacularly awesome montage containing one of Futurama's finest moments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uha4yRj4Z8

Goria Esteban might write atrocious children's books, but Conga is on my ipod because of Futurama.  Along with Year In the Year 2525 and Baby Love Child.   One thing Futurama does well is pair great music with great montages.

That Darn Katz had a great montage, but it deserved some good music.  

One of my favorite non Futurama montages is in American Dad, when you see Francine's mundane existance as a housewife slowly grinding her down, (the smiley face breakfast she makes every morning for her family slowly starts to turn into a sad one, the bacon smile turns into a frown, and the fried egg eyes start to have ketchup tears), and develops into a crescendo with her smiling at a monarch butterfly, which then gets splatted by her son.  All the while Mr Blue Sky by the Electric Light Orchestra is playing.

I could actually go on and on about my favorite Futurama montages. Many of them are classics, and let's face it, with the shorter running times, they are a great way to compress many different jokes and plot points into a much shorter span. One thing Futurama does exceptionally well, is montages.

I agree with every single point you make very strongly except for Gloria Esteban's children's books -but that's only because I haven't read them.
But yes, strongly enough to quote what you said and say that I agree strongly.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

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« Reply #431 on: 08-22-2011 00:49 »

I feel special now.  : )  And Gloria Esteban writes horrible children's books.  Another celebrity who thinks you can write Where the Wild Things Are or The Very Hungry Catarpillar in your lunchbreak.
totalnerd undercanada

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« Reply #432 on: 08-23-2011 17:12 »

I'd like to throw my support behind Futurama's montages as well. Partially because they tend to do them so well, with good music and a wide selection of funny, but mainly because the discussion reminded me of I, Meatbag and made me rewatch it. I had forgotten how much I enjoyed Bender's rampage of excess and indulgence.

WoOoooOOOooo!
Mongo

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« Reply #433 on: 08-23-2011 18:24 »
« Last Edit on: 08-23-2011 18:30 »

Here is a direct comparison of Season 6A with Season 6B, using the average PEEL ratings of each episode.

Since there are still three episodes in 6B to be rated, I have included two charts, the first with the 6B episodes shifted to the left (the worst possible comparison, since the final three episodes would have to be worse than the worst 6B episode so far), and the second with the 6B episodes shifted to the right (the best possible comparison, since the final three episodes would have to be better than the best 6B episode so far). Click on the image for the full-sized chart.

Given what I know of the final three episodes, I suspect that the second chart is closer to the eventual truth. I expect Overclockwise and Reincarnation, and possibly Cold Warriors as well, to be better than Mobius Dick and Law & Oracle, the highest-rated 6B episodes.

If that is the case, then Season 6B will end up slightly better than Season 6A in the quality of its episodes.



totalnerd undercanada

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« Reply #434 on: 08-23-2011 18:31 »

Use the CGEF ratings rather than PEEL's. PEEL always seems to have a more extreme reaction and a smaller sample size. CGEF is slightly more reasonable and unbiased, giving a smaller skew to the data.

Additionally, you need some kind of baseline for a true comparative assessment. How about putting the average episode score for each season (1-5) on there?

Otherwise, you had the same idea I did. I was going to wait until the end of 6B and then embark upon the creation of another uberchart to determine once and for all whether there is a point marking a noticeable decline in overall quality.

Mongo

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« Reply #435 on: 08-23-2011 18:36 »

Actually, I was going to wait until 6B had finished airing as well, for obvious reasons.  But the discussion on this thread has been about precisely this issue -- whether 6B was as good as 6A, or if it had fallen in quality, and I decided that even with the final three episodes not yet aired (even though they all appear to be good-to-excellent episodes, hence moving the average quality of 6B upwards), there was value in doing the comparison now.

I will look at CGEF, I am not familiar with their rating system.
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #436 on: 08-23-2011 19:15 »

I appreciate the effort that's gone into the graphs. I too think it would be best and fairest to wait until 6B is over, but I understand your reasoning behind making them now. They still serve a purpose to intrigue. I agree with the improvements that TNUK suggested, but I think that perhaps it would also be interesting to make a Peel graph and a separate CGEF graph for comparison for the crack of it. Just a thought...
Mongo

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« Reply #437 on: 08-23-2011 19:41 »
« Last Edit on: 08-23-2011 19:49 »

Here is the CGEF data.  Each production season has its episodes arranged in descending order of CGEF rating.

Keep in mind that the final three episodes of Season 6 have not yet aired.  I expect at least two of them (Overclockwise and Reincarnation) to get a CGEF score of at least 90, with the third (Cold Warriors) to be in the mid-to-high 80s.  This would have the effect of moving the entire Season 6 set upwards.

The result would be the upper half (by CGEF rating) of Season 6 episodes being fully equal to the upper halves of the previous seasons, while the lower half have distinctly lower ratings than the lower halves of any other season (Season 3 being the closest to Season 6).

As always, click on the image for the full-sized chart.

totalnerd undercanada

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« Reply #438 on: 08-23-2011 19:57 »

If that graph is anything to go by, Season 7 will contain new lows but also one to two awesome episodes, and Season 8 will be glorious.

Either way, I like the graph. I'm going to wait until Season 6 finishes airing before I produce anything based on CGEF or PEEL's data though. It'll give me something to do during the off-season.
Gorky

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« Reply #439 on: 08-23-2011 20:15 »

Why don't you spend the off-season getting pudgy and knocking up supermodels, like our greatest sports heroes?
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