Star Wars: Return of the Thread

[Reply #320 on:]

There hasn't been any good Star Wars content since 1997.  Some of it since then has been merely mediocre rather than truly awful, but none of it has actually been good.

There's definitely been more misses than hits, but I do think The Mandalorian was genuinely great. I'm a bit sceptical about its future though since it looks like they're going to be forcing crossovers via the other shows.

[Reply #321 on:]

I saw Rogue One on opening week in an incredible cinema with a group of Peelers, and I still enjoy rewatching it from time to time. Seems like a lifetime ago.

[Reply #322 on:]

I consider Clone Wars, Rogue One , Rebels and Mandalorian to be actually good Star Wars

[Reply #323 on:]

I did kind of like the first Clone Wars cartoon (the Genndy Tartakovsky one, not the later CGI cartoon).

I've never seen The Mandalorian, but I hear good things about it from people who have.

[Reply #324 on:]

The CGI Clone Wars show is a total mess. It's like... 40% awful, 40% mediocre and 20% great. And it's not even like the quality changes on a season-by-season basis. It's just inconsistent the entire way through! Star Wars: Rebels is the same, but less extreme.

[Reply #325 on:]

I didn't think Rebels was too bad, at least in comparison to some other parts of the franchise. I haven't really been keeping up with the latest material: I got the feeling that it had reached the stage of just manufacturing stuff for the sake of keeping the franchise alive, but perhaps I'm just being cynical.

[Reply #326 on:]

Oh my..

Kenobi ..how could they screw this so much?

its like ep 8 all over again

[Reply #327 on:]

Oh my..

Kenobi ..how could they screw this so much?

its like ep 8 all over again

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say it's more in line with the prequels; kind of shitty but still watchable.

But yeah, it's most definitely disappointing. I want the Third Sister to hurry up and die already because I can't stand listening to her speak.

[Reply #328 on:]

The prequels were silly ... overblown sometimes and overconfusing others.. but they werent so full retarded as the stuff we say last week...

it was like if taken out of scooby doo...  3rd episode had some dumb stuff.. but 4th..... it just went fulltard

[Reply #329 on:]

It sounds like you guys both have higher opinions of the prequels than I do, but if this show is even worse, then I'm glad that it's only on Disney+ where I'll never have to see it.

[Reply #330 on:]

I didnt liked the prequels at all.. the only one i mildly acept would be revenge of the sith and even so the movie has big problems (the fall to the dark side of Anakin is too sudden and fast..  some really ackward and weird moments where it should be a dramatic event (like Obi Wan and Yoda finding out Anakin turned against the Jedi, or Yoda fighting Palpatine wich ends too sudenly and dissapointingly) and a lack of continuty here and there...

But even so they didnt had plainly stupid stuff like the sequels had plenty (specially in ep 8) but this...
The positive thing is its making stupid stuff like Resistance look good

And its breaking canon at an alarming pace

Show spoiler

Having Obi Wan and Anakin meet before their encounter in the Death Star is bad enouht allready.. but ok i could eat it if done really well.. but not only is being done utterly bad..  having Leia allready irremediably linked to not only Kenobi  ..but to the Jedi underground and proto-rebelion in plain sight of not just the whole entire Empire but Vader himself? and then you want me to believe she would be an Imperial senator just a few years from now?

I tought ok the inquisitor can find out and then Oni Wan kills her before she can report Vader ..but no.. they do all that right in front of the entire base and Vader included

[Reply #331 on:]

It sounds like you guys both have higher opinions of the prequels than I do, but if this show is even worse, then I'm glad that it's only on Disney+ where I'll never have to see it.

Yeah, I wouldn't say I've got particularly high opinions of the prequels. It does get some nostalgia points (I was 11 when ROTS came out) but they deserve all the criticism they get. The one thing they did well was lay a solid groundwork for other Star Wars media to build off.

But here's something great that just made my day. I purchased the Din Djarin's starfighter Lego set, and they fucked up by sending me 4. That's like... $300 worth of free Lego.

[Reply #332 on:]

The one thing they did well was lay a solid groundwork for other Star Wars media to build off.

They paved over the previous 20 years worth of groundwork that already existed.

$300 worth of free Lego is nothing to sneeze at.  Although if three extra sets add up to $300 worth, I suppose that means that a single Lego set costs $100 now?  Sounds about right.

[Reply #333 on:]

I thought Obi-Wan was OK which is about the best you can hope for from Star Wars now honestly.

All these shows, Mandalorian post season 1, Book of Boba Fett, Obi-Wan. None of them are as offensively bad as Episode 8. They're just kind of there. I watch them in kind of the same way I'd watch a middle of the road sitcom in the 1990s like King of Queens and never think of it again. Like, "Yeah, the kids are in bed, I want to relax and eat this piece of pizza, I'll watch this, I guess."

I think these shows like Book of Boba Fett and Obi-Wan are probably about as good as Episode III or Episode VII which is about as good as Star Wars has been since the 1980s outside of season 1 of The Mandalorian which now appears to be an anomaly.

It could have been worse, look at Piccard season 2.

Actually that's a perfect description of this show. It could have been worse.

[Reply #334 on:]

I actually thought the Obi-Wan finale was okay, or at least the confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader was. The shit with the Third Sister was stupid; I find it very hard to believe Obi-Wan would let her walk away knowing that she's aware of Luke.

Overall, the plot was okay but the execution was pretty poor. So many of the flaws in this show could be rectified with some better writing and/or editing.

[Reply #335 on:]

I actually thought the Obi-Wan finale was okay, or at least the confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader was. The shit with the Third Sister was stupid; I find it very hard to believe Obi-Wan would let her walk away knowing that she's aware of Luke.

Yeah I agree. The shit with Vader and Obi-Wan was great. I like the idea that Vader never beats Obi-Wan. Even in Episode IV Obi-Wan is the one who actually wins their dual.

The third sister would have been better if she was just a villain whose ambition got her on Vader's bad side as opposed to that weak secret hero plot twist. The way things are going with Disney Plus, they're probably going to try and make a series about her.

Overall, the plot was okay but the execution was pretty poor. So many of the flaws in this show could be rectified with some better writing and/or editing.

It started out as a movie before it got shunted onto Disney Plus when Solo in theatres tanked, didn't it? They probably took a two hour movie's worth of material and stretched it out over six hours. There probably is a decent movie in there somewhere. If you just took the best parts and cut them together into a two-hour movie, I honestly think it would have been better than the entire sequel trilogy.

[Reply #336 on:]

So, Andor is actually good. Like, really good. It makes the last few decades of Star Wars look like a fucking joke in comparison. It is kind of weird to think that some random, not particularly memorable character from Rogue One ended up shitting all over Obi-Wan and Boba Fett.

But the writing is sharp, the pacing is deliberate and it hits hard with the set pieces. It looks stunning as well, especially episode 6. For those who might be sceptical, do be warned that it's a little slow (the action is pretty infrequent), but all the payoffs and dialogue along the way is outstanding.

Also, Mon Mothma is played by Moira from Overwatch. Neat!

[Reply #337 on:]

Andor was amazingly good..

is so striking after Kenobi that the did something with such quality..and i mean quality in writing and acting..not just on sets and effects..

And to round it up it was made by a guy who claims doesnt like Star Wars and knows almost nothing about it.. but aparently Tony Gilroy knows how to work good and he just took the help of those who know to fill up the history in the Star Wars canon context... something wich should be the norm.. and that almost no one does despite they claiming to be ubber star wars nerds (atjem... JJ Abrams.. atjem Rian Johnson... )

Its not just well done but quite well writen.. of course it wont break molds and beat other writing works but for Star Wars its very high level..

[Reply #338 on:]

I hope Disney and Lucasfilm will greenlight similar projects to Andor... it just goes to show that good writing can go a long way (Though having recently watched Glass Onion, I can definitely say Rian Johnson is a good writer. Dunno what on Earth happened with TLJ). I'm excited for Ahsoka, but slightly dreading how it might turn out. At best, it'll be a glorified live-action Rebels sequel.

Also, I was a defender of Andor from the day it was announced. People would say "Who cares about this nobody! Why would anyone want this?!" To which I would think, "Hey, Cassian Andor is practically a blank canvas. There's plenty of potential!" I'm sure when Tolkien announced Lord of the Rings people said "Who gives a shit about Bilbo's nephew! Give me the Hobbit 2: Smaug's Revenge!" And it turns out, I was right about Cassian. They fleshed out his motivations whilst keeping them consistent with his Rogue One appearance, and even showed other awesome stuff like the inner workings of the Imperial bureaucracy and the early stages of the Rebel alliance.

Maybe I should be a Star Wars writer. I've got a great idea for an Ewok vs Gungan battle.

[Reply #339 on:]

If a final apocalyptic battle culminates with the destruction of both Ewoks and Gungans it'll be a winner!

Also, what am I missing?? The other day I thought I'd check it out and watched the first episode. Andor has great style and the sets and costumes are absolutely gorgeous, but it seems so heavy-handed trope-ish to me. From the interactions between the characters in the bar to the stock situation #14 with the camp of oppressed indigenous people and their ancient rituals. I liked the introduction of the gung-ho Imperial underling baddie.

It feels like Avatar to me: stunningly beautiful, with a trope-filled, formulaic plot. I shut it off halfway through and came back to finish it the next day, with not much desire at this point to watch any more. Maybe I'm just old and jaded?

[Reply #340 on:]

Well, like I said a couple of posts above, it takes a little while to open up and the first couple of episodes aren't truly indicative of the show's quality. At the very least, I would try to watch the first three episodes (which concludes the first story arc).

After that, episode 4 introduces several new POV characters (including the main antagonist) which massively increases the scope of the show, and finally shows the Empire being scary in a realistic way. Blowing up Alderaan is evil in a cartoonish supervillain way, but Andor shows the Empire operating like the highly effective fascist state they are, and the way it oppresses the everyday lives of regular people.

I can assure you though, the plot takes some unexpected turns and doesn't lean on clichés too hard. The main draw for me though is the quality of the dialogue and acting. Stellan Skarsgård and Andy Serkis put every other Star Wars performance to shame.

[Reply #341 on:]

Thx for the encouragement; I'll try to check out a couple more episodes.

[Reply #342 on:]

I'm sure when Tolkien announced Lord of the Rings people said "Who gives a shit about Bilbo's nephew! Give me the Hobbit 2: Smaug's Revenge!"

Don't give Peter Jackson ideas.

[Reply #343 on:]

So, prepare to hate me; I thought Andor was just a touch too grim. I kinda want something a little lighter.

[Reply #344 on:]

A little late and whatnot but I thought Andor was superb; easily ranks amongst my favourite Star Wars ever, and that's not just because it's somewhat set in the OT era.

I'll expand on that if anyone is ever interested but in the meantime I think I agree with most of what everyone has said about Boba Fett and Obi-Wan. Both could have been excellent but for me Boba Fett lacked the spark that made me invested in the setting and characters and Obi-Wan, while having some good moments, had some incredibly weak writing in general.

Then we get to Mando S3. I just... ekh! It's not like I didn't care for the Mandalorians, or was angered by the prominence given to Bo-Katan; I just thought it wasn't told very well. I was watching it thinking it was akin to being invited round to Jon and Dave's house to see them play with their Star Wars toys but they're a little too excited and seemingly at a drop of a hat we all have to leave.

I don't think it's only because Andor came out that we had a spoilt vision of what Star Wars shows could be like; Mando S3 was weak.

Funny thing was, I also watch The Bad Batch which is little more than a Clone Wars spin-off. I was watching S2 and the entire first half of the season seemed to be cheesy filler episodes, with a few exceptions - until I started treating it as an episodic adventure-of-the-week, but that's by-the-by. Thing is, it really upped it's game for the second half - or at least it seemed to, because it was direct competition with Mando S3 by then - and dang it, I would leave Wednesday going "but the Bad Batch episode was better!"

All that said and done, even though I didn't really get into Rebels, I'm still looking forward to Ashoka. I'm just hoping the story's handled well; I like the characters already, I want a good show.

It does sort of confirm that I will still automatically Consume Product for Star Wars; I don't actually see a time (yet) where I'll consciously reject watching a show or movie (if they ever get released again). But then I will still bemoan various aspects in hindsight. I think so much of the Disney era could have been utterly fantastic, but there's just these little flaws that have doomed a lot of it to mediocrity and most of it has, in my opinion, been down to writing and direction (in general).

Anyway, I spout all this because I realise I've missed having a place to vent about it; more fool me!

[Reply #345 on:]

Season 3 of Mandalorian was bad. They're so afraid of changing the status quo; every time it looks like something interesting is about to happen, they backtrack. It's just so... bland.

[Reply #346 on:]

I agree with you guys. Mandalorian was a show that once held such great promise. The SE02 ending was superb. But then SE03 decided to shoot the series in the foot, and the show went completely off the rails. The show ceased being about Din, and became Bo Katan's show. It's all well and good to explore her character, but I don't recall her ever being quite so unlikable as she is in this series. The writing made her feel like she was being foisted into Din's place because they could do it, not because they'd given her some really interesting characterization to change her into someone worthy of the Darksaber. It also felt pretty ridiculous that in one episode, she goes through trials to cleanse herself along with Din, and from then on can't take her helmet off. But an episode later, Armorer says she can take her helmet off whenever because suddenly she can be a link between the factions of Mandos. What, Din couldn't have done that without a cleansing? He couldn't have done that after he was cleansed? He still held the Darksaber (unless he didn't; cannot be arsed to look it up to double check). I thought the whole point is that he leads ALL Mandalorians with that thing. He gets to say whatever he wants, do whatever he wants. Guess that's not how it works because plot!

Like Zed, I found I was far more invested in Bad Batch more and more every week. The cliffhanger of that show's season meant far more to me than whatever Mando was doing. I legit jumped ship on Mando before bothering with the Lizzo episode and don't foresee myself returning to it for the SE04 that's supposedly planned. Din with have a diminished role. Grogu will be an annoying marketing ploy like he was in this season, and Bo will have taken the show over. Which, again, is cool in theory, but in practice? IT won't do her justice.

I'm also skeptical of Ahsoka now that so many of the live action entries have been very mediocre. I want to see the Rebels crew again, but I'm not sure how I feel about these characters essentially taking over the Heir to the Empire story line (if that's indeed where they're going with it). I'm also not sure how well the characters will translate from cartoon into a more serious realm. Time will of course tell but the trailers haven't edged me out of neutral at best on the show's promise. And I say that as a huge fan of Ahsoka.

The one thing I'll give this show is that, if I'm correct and saw who I think I saw, they made Jacen Syndulla look vastly less hideous than he was in the end scene of Rebels. So that's a plus.

[Reply #347 on:]

I don't recall her ever being quite so unlikable as she is in this series.

Funny, because to me it feels like they're handwaving her history of terrorism and war crimes in favour of making her more heroic.

[Reply #348 on:]

I think that Bo Katan was always meant to be ultimately redeemed, that Dave Filoni introduced her with specific plans, but the feeling I got from her was that she was an ally of convenience, with "complicated morality", rather than necessarily the hero of the story.

I liked her dynamic in S2; I genuinely questioned whether or not she would be a threat to Din in S3. But nothing in S3 really naturally followed on from S2. I know it's a massive conspiracy, often peddled by biased sections of the community, but I find it somewhat hard not to think that there was an intervention (of some form or another) that derailed Jon Favreau's original plans and it really shows. I mean, that's not a great reflection on Jon and the show runners either, but one has to wonder.

On the subject of Ahsoka = Heir to the Empire; I'll have to admit that I'm not ever so familiar with the latter. I know of it - for me I see Thrawn and go "wahey, I know him from TIE Fighter!" - so I can't say for certain how I'll feel about its handling. Except, of course, from what I know, it'll seem poor form to re-tell it while completely side-lining all the main characters. We'll see how they go. One thing I would say, however, though this is probably wildly over-thinking, but with further talk of Mark Hamill passing on the character of Luke, maybe they're finally going to properly recast him. So many people have pointed out how Sebastian Stan would be a great fit, and apparently Mark has been one of them. If they have finally recast Luke, and are keeping it as a surprise, that might yet make it possible to have Luke play a much more active role in everything going on, even if Ashoka really does seem to be Rebels Season 5. I guess we'll see. Still leaves Han and Leia et al out of the picture, but who knows?

[Reply #349 on:]

I don't recall her ever being quite so unlikable as she is in this series.

Funny, because to me it feels like they're handwaving her history of terrorism and war crimes in favour of making her more heroic.

I'm bad at words, but Zed's said what I was trying to convey pretty succinctly. I'm more than happy to have Bo be an outright antagonist/war criminal. She's fine as a convenient ally. I'd also be perfectly happy to see her make up for those things to wrap her arc up in a nice little gift box. It's just that execution is where it all fell into the hole. Maybe I'm on the 'huffing the copium' train as the youths like to say, but I feel like there was meddling with Favreau's vision after SE02 happened. And I'm not sure it's Dave's doing, like some of the fans swear up and down about. He's not a perfect creative, but who is? And anyways, fandom was bitching about George and how bad of a dude he was for making the prequels until he sold Star Wars off.

If anyone's responsible for the shift of Mando, I'd say it's KK. Whether she simply asked for the redirection and Favreau and co gladly did them, or something more serious was involved, no clue. All I know is that from how SE02 ended, things should've taken a vastly different direction than what we got. The whole point of the finale was that it had emotional gravitas. Mando completed his mission, and could move on to his own thing. Aaaaand then they threw the gravitas out the window. It'd be akin to having Vader sacrifice himself to stop Palpatine, only for Palpatine to suddenly show up again like 'lol just kidding!' OH WAIT.

Sebastian would be perfectly fine as Luke. He very much looks the part, and I'm sure he can act it too. I hesitate to think he'll show up at all though. I suppose we'll see, but I think back to all the rumor mills that the old tried and true cast are 'cobwebbed' as they've deemed it. Utterly untouchable in a vain attempt to make their own mediocrity shine artificially brighter. I do hope that's wrong, and that we can have the legacy characters back in some way. But that's a double-edged sword. I think back to Kenobi and Boba Fett, and how neither of them were handled especially well. Especially Boba.

[Reply #350 on:]

You raise so many points I can't address without rambling so I'll try and keep it short.
Preview/ tl;dr : I agree, though!

I know a lot of people blame KK for meddling, but then, I know quite a few that blame KK for every single thing they don't like about any new Star Wars content, and utterly refuse to believe she had any influence on any single thing they have liked. I don't know think anyone outside the industry knows the actual truth though. I suspect it'll only come out in the wash after she leaves; whenever that will be...

[cuts out loooong spiel about Andor and the other shows]

[cuts out looongish spiel about the sequel trilogy]

The sequels ultimately upset me because I felt, first and foremost, that the narrative was sabotaged by either poor-planning or overreaching interference. Definitely poor execution! But I really liked the characters; I just felt they (and their actors) were done dirty. It's maddening that that's what I feel overall about most of the Star Wars shows as well.

By the end of the Mando S3 finale, almost every plot-point from the end of S2 is not so much resolved but actually reversed, and blatantly so. If that was pre-planned then it's shockingly bad, but if it's the result of pressure from above then they're all fools!

It does reflect badly on Filoni; when he was praised, it was because he was seen as George Lucas' right-hand-man and he was the only one that got Star Wars etc and that he redeemed the Prequels (because everyone has now forgotten how much they hated them, as you say). Now, the worry is that he's just a hack. I think one of the most egregious examples of the latter is Cade Bane pitching up in BoBF. Now, don't get me wrong, I fangasmed when I saw him, but then I thought of my parents who were also watching the show. They're old-school, they remember Star Wars the first time, they're fans, but they know nothing of the Expanded Universe, but they adored the Mandalorian. I imagined their reaction though: "Who the fuck is this?" Made me think of how many ways they could have introduced his character better. Made me think of how many little ways they could have handled the narrative better in general and made the show so much better overall. Annoyed me, greatly. 

My biggest beef with Obi-Wan was that while (some of) the set pieces were awesome, so many of them relied on abysmally shitty plot holes and contrivances to even actually occur it just proved that spectacle was the only consideration that went into the show. I know that wasn't on Filoni though.

Do I think Ahsoka will be compromised by overreaching interference... I don't think so, so much. I kinda feel that Filoni has been given this to be his own little pet going forward, plus with that promise of the wrap-up/cross-over film should it all go well. This will be the proof of whether he's actually good enough. As I said before, I suspect I'll be judging it mostly on the quality of the storytelling.

Further to your point on Boba being mishandled, I can't help but think that Temuera Morrison is ready to bash some heads together over how it went down. Katee Sachkoff too; she gave such a passionate and detailed description of Bo's creation and history in a pre-season interview I saw and her reaction to S3 seemed to be "wow, they cut out so much!". Add to that that they're begging John Boyega to come back for the next Rey movie, because again they did him and his character so dirty too. Who knows whether Oscar Isaac would even consider coming back?

It's such a crying shame!

But I mention future feature films; it's ridiculous how many films have been announced/advertised only for them to fall completely by the wayside or be outright cancelled. I forget which Star Wars youtuber it was, but I think it's a commonly held point; it does seem that many of the announcements seemed to be "We're pleased to announce [currently popular director] will do their own Star Wars film! ...You know, when they get round to it, after they're done with a few other projects, sometime in the future..." - why the fuck not right now!?.

But yeah, the other legacy characters. Would they recast Han Solo, or reuse Alden Ehrenreich? I fear the death of Carrie Fisher put such an emotional weight on the character that they really don't know what to do with adult Leia anymore. While I'm hopeful that Sebastian Stan might yet be introduced (or who knows, maybe someone even better somehow?) I agree there's a reluctance. The concept of him playing Luke will have to be established before the audience sees him; much the same with the other characters. I know why Lucasfilm may also feel that that's not likely to be accepted by some or even most fans but if they took that decision they could at least open the door to a lot more potential. Right now, it seems like the Ghost Crew is out to save the New Republic, with Mon Mothma's seemingly reluctant approval, while the galactic heroes everyone knows will respond with complete apathy? Or, Thrawn is actually reduced to a blink-and-you-miss-it event on the fringe of the galaxy? Doesn't bode well, either way.

Right, ramble over for now!

[Reply #351 on:]

First two episodes of Ahsoka are passable, so it's already a cut above TBoBF and Obi-Wan. It's nice seeing the crew from Rebels show up in live-action... Hera, Sabine, Chopper. I feel like it did an okay job of reintroducing the dynamics between these characters, although somebody else who hasn't seen Rebels will need to weigh in on that. I am slightly concerned by Ahsoka herself being so far the least interesting character in her own show. And...

Show spoiler

Fuck off with having yet another boring-ass map being this story's McGuffin! That said, I do feel like it kind of works here, compared to the bullshit in the sequel trilogy. I'm assuming Morgan's witch magic is how she found Thrawn's location, and the map orb isn't just connected to him because reasons.

It does feel like it's missing something, although I'm not sure what. Perhaps Andor set my expectations too high. Yet at the same time, those expectations were bonked back to neutral levels because of Mando s3.

I'm eager to see more, at the very least!

[Reply #352 on:]

There hasn't been any good Star Wars content since 1997.  Some of it since then has been merely mediocre rather than truly awful, but none of it has actually been good.

The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie.

[Reply #353 on:]

There hasn't been any good Star Wars content since 1997.  Some of it since then has been merely mediocre rather than truly awful, but none of it has actually been good.

The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie.

Disgustingly wrong. The correct answer is Rise of Skywalker. Nothing is more original and gripping as Palpatine returning somehow.

In all seriousness, I checked out the first two episodes of Ahsoka last week. I'll check out the episode(s?) that drop this week. But I've gotta say... while it's sitting higher for me than Kenobi and Book of Boba Fett in terms of 'how BS is this', it's certainly not touching Mando's first two seasons. That could be rose-tinted goggles of course; I've never been compelled to re-watch Mando whatsoever.

Also, I had a lot of little gripes with the continuity of Ahsoka in comparison to Rebels' timeline. I get that Disney doesn't know what a timeline or canon even is, but I really would've thought they'd have had at least a little more regard for events...

Show spoiler

Sabine seems to have regressed as a character in this show. She comes off, to me, as bitchy and emo as she's ever been. I get that she lost Ezra, but by the time the Rebels' epilogue happened, she was hardly painted as an emo recluse. She seemed determined to help Ahsoka find Ezra if anything. Also... what happened to her having trained to use the Darksaber with Kanan? She never went off and trained with Ahsoka to use a lightsaber, and she shouldn't be called a padawan if she isn't a Force-user. What's more, I thought Ezra took his lightsaber with him when he tricked Thrawn? Why would Sabine have it? Also, I wasn't under the impression that Sabine or anyone else thought Thrawn and Ezra had legitimately died when they went off into Hyperspace with the purrgil. I got the impression that everyone thought both were MIA at worst, and that the eventual/long-term goal was to find Ezra specifically.

Of course there's also-

Show spoiler

Speaking of the purrgil: I thought Rebels established that Thrawn and Ezra were both flung into regions unknown, at random, with no way to find them with a map of any sort? How would a map lead to them if that was the case? Will they explain why that's possible later on? Did Ezra or Thrawn send this orb into known space so they could be found? If you ask me, we didn't need a physical macguffin to start the search for them. Ahsoka going out into the edges of the known galaxy to poke around and hear tales of Thrawn and Ezra being out and about would've worked far better. That could have led to the same outcome of Ahsoka and Morgan both racing to get to Thrawn first, and might've been a little more interesting if done correctly.

One more thing that I can't let off the hook:

Show spoiler

I guess lightsabers stabbing people through the chest can definitely no longer kill people, and  I guess now the hole can magically teleport so your character lives. Oh, and what is actually good fight choreography? Cuz it ain't here.

Also, Zed, you've made lots of excellent points. We'll definitely see going forward if Dave's got chops or not for live action. Personally at this point, I inclined to think he's more suited to cartoons, where you can get away with contrivances and holes and whatnot. And you're so right about them tossing in characters from all over the place into these shows. The average Shmoe won't understand what a Cad Bane is, or any character not in the core six films unless you give them story as to why they're even there.

[Reply #354 on:]

I would largely agree on the response to Ahsoka so far; I liked both of them, so far, but recognise there are some flaws.

Generally speaking, I would put them roughly on par with Mando S1-2; which is "very good", but not without criticism. So, below Andor (though Andor's first two weren't exactly perfect either), but I felt far better about them than I did with BoBF, Obi and definitely Mando S3 so that's a good sign.

I'm also going to have to admit guilt to being swayed by other people's criticism; I never really got into Rebels as I think I said before; I recognise the characters, know the storyline but won't be able to judge definitively on particular points of characterisation and plot. In other words, I can't say for certain how I feel about Sabine's character.

What I will agree with is that Ahsoka unfortunately seems among the least interesting of the characters so far, which is disappointing to say the least. I would give Dave some slack; he's often talked about Ahsoka growing as a character from an insufferable little brat that everyone hated into a plucky, resourceful and dependable warrior that everyone loved. This could be Ahsoka as an old(er) and wiser character now, and that would make some sense, but I want more fun from her. Still early days though; I think there's a layout where both she and Sabine are somewhat bitter and stubborn so hopefully she'll come out of her shell a bit more.

I say all that, Luke changed a tonne from ANH to ROTJ; by the latter, the adventurous, snippy farm boy is well and truly gone. I saw it pointed out just the other day; this was all planned, right down to his wardrobe going from white in ANH to beigey-grey in ESB to full-on black in ROTJ.

That said, my previous point remains.

On to other points:

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The other glaring criticism I find mentioned a lot is the (yet-another) star map - now I'm not too fussed if the map-finding-McGuffin plot might be wrapped up pretty quickly, because they've seemingly found Thrawn and just need to get there, but people are asking things like "how are you finding a guy, just been lost, by using a map that dates back to Roman times?" and I don't think it's particularly well explained. But it could yet be - I just hope it's not left drifting out in the open - you know, so people end up going "oh, so I guess it was just a MASSIVE plot contrivance...".

There's also the lightsaber question

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My God, was Qui-Gon a dumbass for allowing such a wound to kill him, because it seems most other people easily survive it... I've seen some passable defences but it's almost a meme by now... sorry, it IS a meme by now...

I'm holding judgement on the Cade Bane analogy for now. I will think of my parents again and while I imagine they'll happily recognise some of the actors involved (one in particular, should be obvious to British viewers) I know even Ahsoka means barely anything to them so it'll be a test to see whether they'll ever come to particularly care about any of the returning characters at all.

But there are some good points, just to turn it around a bit. I am intrigued by the Dark Jedi pair and want to see where they're going; it's bitterly sad to think of Ray Stevenson not being around anymore though.

Whether or not I'm totally on top of the characters or not, I do quite like Hera so far; good casting and characterisation. I've not got anything to say against any of the cast, it should be said, but yeah, we'll see on the others.

I've seen some people say that it feels more Star Wars-y, and is better in that regard than Andor, and I do agree to a point; I definitely did like the feel of the episodes.

I also really liked the music too; Kevin Kiner's work has really grown on me recently and I thoroughly enjoyed the whole score. I also recognised some nice little bits of cinematography, such as when Shin is spying on Sabine, then there's a musical beat and the shot reveals the threat behind her - I liked that bit a lot.

So yeah, largely positive so far. Will have to see how it goes though.

[Reply #355 on:]

Nothing is more original and gripping as Palpatine returning somehow.

Yeah, original.

[Reply #356 on:]

From a storytelling perspective, there was no good reason for Palpatine to come back, "somehow" or otherwise. They didn't even do anything worthwhile with him after they brought him back, unlike Darth Maul's resurrection. Instead, all they accomplished was undermining Return of Jedi.

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Sabine seems to have regressed as a character in this show. She comes off, to me, as bitchy and emo as she's ever been. I get that she lost Ezra, but by the time the Rebels' epilogue happened, she was hardly painted as an emo recluse. She seemed determined to help Ahsoka find Ezra if anything. Also... what happened to her having trained to use the Darksaber with Kanan? She never went off and trained with Ahsoka to use a lightsaber, and she shouldn't be called a padawan if she isn't a Force-user. What's more, I thought Ezra took his lightsaber with him when he tricked Thrawn? Why would Sabine have it? Also, I wasn't under the impression that Sabine or anyone else thought Thrawn and Ezra had legitimately died when they went off into Hyperspace with the purrgil. I got the impression that everyone thought both were MIA at worst, and that the eventual/long-term goal was to find Ezra specifically.

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I agree with the regression of Sabine's character... I feel like they forgot that quite a lot of time has passed since Rebels, and she would be in her early thirties by this point; not a moody teen. Who knows, maybe they'll expand on Ahsoka "leaving" her, and conjure up a reasonable explanation for her attitude. Speaking of which, I believe her lightsaber training with Ahsoka is entirely new information for this show because you're right; that never happened previously. I imagine she wanted to upkeep her skills following the darksaber training she did with Kanan. And by the way, I'm like 80% sure that Ezra DID give Sabine his lightsaber before he went whaling with Thrawn.

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Speaking of the purrgil: I thought Rebels established that Thrawn and Ezra were both flung into regions unknown, at random, with no way to find them with a map of any sort? How would a map lead to them if that was the case? Will they explain why that's possible later on? Did Ezra or Thrawn send this orb into known space so they could be found? If you ask me, we didn't need a physical macguffin to start the search for them. Ahsoka going out into the edges of the known galaxy to poke around and hear tales of Thrawn and Ezra being out and about would've worked far better. That could have led to the same outcome of Ahsoka and Morgan both racing to get to Thrawn first, and might've been a little more interesting if done correctly.

The way I see it...

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The purrgil fucked off to wherever, bringing Thrawn and Ezra with them, and eventually ended up in another galaxy. It's been a long time; it stands to reason that they'd eventually make a pit stop somewhere. Being a nightsister, Morgan "sensed" Thrawn's location in a new galaxy (or perhaps Thrawn somehow found a a way to ping his location to her), and perhaps already knew about the maps to other galaxies. The maps don't specifically point to Thrawn and Ezra, but the galaxy they now inhabit.

[Reply #357 on:]

From a storytelling perspective, there was no good reason for Palpatine to come back, "somehow" or otherwise. They didn't even do anything worthwhile with him after they brought him back, unlike Darth Maul's resurrection. Instead, all they accomplished was undermining Return of Jedi.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought when I read Dark Empire.  (I mean, except for the part about Darth Maul.  Obviously I didn't think about Darth Maul at all, because he didn't exist yet.)

It's utterly baffling that some thirty years later someone thought it would be a good idea to put such a bad idea in a movie.

[Reply #358 on:]

The way I see it...

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The purrgil fucked off to wherever, bringing Thrawn and Ezra with them, and eventually ended up in another galaxy. It's been a long time; it stands to reason that they'd eventually make a pit stop somewhere. Being a nightsister, Morgan "sensed" Thrawn's location in a new galaxy (or perhaps Thrawn somehow found a a way to ping his location to her), and perhaps already knew about the maps to other galaxies. The maps don't specifically point to Thrawn and Ezra, but the galaxy they now inhabit.

It's been some time since I watched any of Rebels, so you could be right. He could've passed his saber on to her as a memento while he was gone. I can look that over if that's not the case; it's pretty trivial overall. I can also see your idea of the map thing being what happened, but it hasn't been explained so eloquently so far, and may never be. So it reads kinda scummy without context.

Going into this week's episode... the fact that it was only a half hour long really helped me not feel like I was being bored to tears. Ahsoka still has this sort of bored or far too stoic air about her, even when she's doing wild things more in line with how we know her to act

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like running outside the ship to fight starfighters because sure why not? Anakin would do it.

Maybe you're right and maybe she'll start cracking that shell and be more like her other iterations? One can hope. I also agree with your sentiment on the map thing. I just wish they'd have openly explained it more or less in that manner, and they haven't done so. I have little hope that they will either.

Also, on another sour note,

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they are legitimately running with the 'Sabine is a Force user' idea. Heaven's sake. If anything in this show drives me up a wall it's this. It's now not enough to have badass Mando training to get things done? Why is it that now, that isn't enough to help fight a threat when it's always been perfectly fine before?

On the flip side, why the heck was Ahsoka that bad at piloting her ship in combat? Ship combat is like- one of the times Ahsoka could and should be a very dangerous individual and yet her and Sabine both floundered around in that whole battle like they were inept rookies. I get that they sucked at communicating with one another but my god. Years of battling the Empire should've still gotten them really flipping far. Sabine should've been hitting targets even early on.

I will say that the moment with Hera and Jacen was sort of cute. It's also nice that he doesn't look quite as ridiculous in live action as he did in Rebels. Still a bit of a choice to make him look pretty much entirely human except for his hair given prior canon. But whatever. At least his skin isn't tinged green as well. Also, there's a vague intrigue to the dark Jedi Master and his apprentice but my goodness. Can she blink? I don't think she blinked the entire time she was in the third episode. I'm sure they're trying to go for a creepy, dead-inside sort of vibe but whoof.

Overall it's- It's conflicting. So many small issues add up to put a burr in my shorts over this show. I'll never re-watch it; there's nothing of great import or interest to bother. If I wasn't such a massive Star Wars nerd, this show would probably score far better with me than it does. Certainly it's watchable, and most of the visuals are fine.As a caveat, I'll say that the choreography in this show and really all the others is lackluster. Easily the weakest aspect of this show outside of stunting Rosario from actually acting with range.

going forward, I'm mostly waiting to see Thrawn and now Mikkelsen will carry him into live action. I'm going to go in with the expectation he will be nothing like how Zahn writes him at any point in his career, but as a bare minimum I want to see him actually have villainous gravitas. I know it's a lot to ask of the franchise since anything Post-Rebels Era SW has steadily worked to strip Star Wars of the Wars part of itself but geez. That's why we love these stories. We see horrors and how heroes overcome them.

[Reply #359 on:]

I'm going to go in with the expectation he will be nothing like how Zahn writes him at any point in his career,

That's a particularly low expectation, but I can see why you have it. Personally, I expect just the barest hint of Zahn's Thrawn, given that Filoni and Favreau are involved and are supposedly fans of the Zahn trilogy's Thrawn.