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Author Topic: Star Wars: Untouched or Altered?  (Read 1992 times)
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PEE Poll: Star Wars:  Untouched or Altered?
Untouched.  Leave classics alone!   -21 (80.8%)
Altered.  The changes make it better!   -5 (19.2%)
Total Voters: 26

DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
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« on: 09-19-2004 02:49 »

So a certain DVD set comes out on Tuesday, and I for one can't wait to not buy it.

But this isn't about my viewpoint...what do you think?  Do you prefer the Star Wars movies to be left untouched, or do you like seeing it changed? (Note that the new set isn't actually the 1997 versions, its new versions with more changes.)  Also, remember to keep any debating civil.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #1 on: 09-19-2004 02:54 »

Most of the changes (such as the spectacular nude scene with Princess Leia and her seventeen clones) were for the better.
evan

Urban Legend
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« Reply #2 on: 09-19-2004 02:56 »

Untouched.  What are the new bits added to the series?  That stupid CGI dance in RotJ, the stupid CGI Jabba in SW, Greedo shooting first, stupid distracting CGI in Mos Eisley, etc.  The original effects seemed "realer" to me when I was a kid, moreso than the CGI did when I grew up.
Tweek

UberMod
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« Reply #3 on: 09-19-2004 03:10 »

I have avoided seeing the altered versions, I want it to be the same as when I first saw it in 1977.
David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #4 on: 09-19-2004 03:51 »

It's the original versions or nothing for me.
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #5 on: 09-19-2004 04:34 »

The new ones would have been good if they were directed right and didn't punch holes in the extended Universe. And no Jar-Jar would have been a hell of an improvement.
David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #6 on: 09-19-2004 05:53 »

We're not talking about the prequels, Nurdy.  We're talking about the Special Editions, and the Even More Special Editions that are coming out on DVD.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #7 on: 09-19-2004 05:57 »

The only touching that I wanted them to do, is cleaning up the original films for transfer to DVD's...
Grim

Professor
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« Reply #8 on: 09-19-2004 06:38 »

What I dont get is the fact they decide they want to fix up some of the special effects, so they modernise some of them and leave others old. If they want to modernise them I say all or none!

For instance, the snow beastie thingy that captures Skywalker and hoists him up by his ankles in that ice cave, when it was done in the 80s I'm sure it was cutting edge, why wasnt this beast CGI-ified, it looks really bad against their updated bits and pieces.

Personally I'm all for them releasing 2 versions, the special edition and the unadulterated version.
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #9 on: 09-19-2004 08:03 »

I'd rather have the 97 edition of the movies.
M Jackson
Professor
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« Reply #10 on: 09-19-2004 10:04 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Grim:
For instance, the snow beastie thingy that captures Skywalker and hoists him up by his ankles in that ice cave, when it was done in the 80s I'm sure it was cutting edge, why wasnt this beast CGI-ified, it looks really bad against their updated bits and pieces.

Correct me if i'm wrong BUT I believe that in the original version you never actually saw the snow beast (isn't it called a Wampa?) ALL the shots where you see the beast were specially filmed and added in for the 1997 special edition. So what you're saying doesn't work becasue the beast is a special effect from 1997, and personally I think it look good and fits in to the film perfectly.  smile Again, I may well be wrong about this but i'm pretty sure i'm right.


And now for my two cents.

I should start of by saying i'm only 19, I wasn't there "in the begining" I've never seen the original version of the films. But quite frankly I don't want or need to.

I was 12 when I was introduced to Star Wars. In 1997 my Dad insisted that he took me to see the films. I didn't want to go "They're lame" I kept saying. I didn't know anything about Star Wars at this point, but for some reason I'd got it into my head that I didn't like them  hmpf

Eventually I was dragged along to the cinema, still very grumpy about being forced to watch this "load of rubbish". As soon as the film started though I was STUNNED. I just sat there in AWE I was TOTALLY BLOWN AWAY. I loved every minute of it. Now belive me, I KNOW what a bad film is. But, no amount of constant trashing from hardcore original fans will convince me that the Special Editions are bad films! I love them. Maybe these people can't except them because they just can't get used to the improvements. But as somebody who watched them with a clean slate or fresh perspective, I can judge them as films in their own right.
I love the 1997 Special Editions and i'm sure i'll love the DVD versions too(which i'll be getting Monday morning).

I will admit that there's ONE thing that's wrong with the special editions. The infamous Greedo shooting first. Like I said i've not seen the original BUT I can tell that Han shooting first makes more sense and makes him even cooler   smile Not only that, but as Greedo shoots it looks like the image has been manipulated and Han kind of slides about to the right for a few frames  confused . Apparently the DVD version has been changed yet again so that they shoot simultaniously. Third time lucky? Maybe this is one thing George SHOULD have left untouched. But it's his film, he can do what he wants  tongue

Oh, and I love the prequels too, but that's a story to be told at another time and place.....and thread.  smile
Tweek

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« Reply #11 on: 09-19-2004 10:41 »

I think you see the snow beast in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back, alas I can't check as I've lent my tape to my nephews  tongue
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #12 on: 09-19-2004 10:43 »

You may see a Glimpse of it so people watching have some idea what is happening.

I agree with M, I love the 97 edition because I'm from that generation of Star Wars fan.
M Jackson
Professor
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« Reply #13 on: 09-19-2004 10:59 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Tweek:
I think you see the snow beast in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back, alas I can't check as I've lent my tape to my nephews   tongue

I don't think you see it, you just hear it. I'm basing this on the short making of doc that is included before each of the films on my 97 Special Edition VHS'. Basically George Lucas something along the lines of...

"although you could argue it's more artistic to only hear the monster, some people found the sequence confusing. So we shot the new footage of the guy in the suit and I think the sequence works much better now"
It's along those lines anyway. I can't be bohered to go and check for an exact quote. And I guess that once I get the DVDs tommorow I won't ever watch my VHS copies again. Ow well, the circle of life....
Tweek

UberMod
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« Reply #14 on: 09-19-2004 11:11 »

I don't think you see the whole thing, I'm fairly sure you see flashes of parts of it including the face, I might be wrong though, I haven't seen it for a while, I'll have to get my tape back.
Mr. Potter

Professor
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« Reply #15 on: 09-19-2004 11:18 »

The changes for this new edition don't sound that bad. What I still don't understand is why Lucas insists on hiding the original versions. Why don't do it like Spielberg that released both versions of E.T. at the same time?
VelourFog

Space Pope
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« Reply #16 on: 09-19-2004 11:21 »

It's not so much that I agree or disagree with what changes he's made, I object to the fact that he keeps on making changes and refuses to allow the originals to be released.

It's a lot easier to make a legitimate case for altering something once (technology, budget, problems with the studio that compromised the original "vision"), but when you are almost continually making changes the way Lucas seems to be it just gets to be so much bs. Of course if he put out original versions I'm sure no one would really care how long and hard he fucked around with changes.
M Jackson
Professor
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« Reply #17 on: 09-19-2004 11:25 »
« Last Edit on: 09-19-2004 11:25 »

I've just had a VERY random thought. How come Darth vader dies so easily in ROTJ? Basically he gets his hand chopped off. SO WHAT, it was mechanical + everyone else in the Star Wars universe who has it happen to them seems to manage OK. Then he gets a skock from Palpatines lightning, but only a bit + Luke survived a much bigger shock! Then he just falls over and starts to die. I'm not complaining really, but when you think about it, he dies a bit easily. Or am I forgeting something?
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #18 on: 09-19-2004 12:04 »

The shock must screwed up his life support system, which without he cannot breath.
Action Jacktion

Professor
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« Reply #19 on: 09-19-2004 13:01 »

As others have said, I wouldn't mind the new versions if the original versions were still available.

In another topic I made a list of the changes in the DVD verisons that were not in the 1997 versions.  At least one previous change has been removed, while others have been further altered.  I don't know if "improving" the "improvements" is a good idea, because where do you draw the line?  The new Jabba might look better than the 1997 Jabba (though I think the 1997 version looks more like the original puppet), but in a few years they'll have the technology to make it look even better.  Will they do yet another version?
Mr Fuzzywuvems

Bending Unit
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« Reply #20 on: 09-19-2004 13:11 »

They'll bring out another version when Hi-def DVD arrives.
M Jackson
Professor
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« Reply #21 on: 09-19-2004 14:20 »
« Last Edit on: 09-19-2004 14:20 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nurdbot:
The shock must screwed up his life support system, which without he cannot breath.

Ah, wise words, wise words indead   smile

+ I expect that Revenge of the Sith will detail just how the life support system works. I've read somewhere that after Anakin falls into the lava it is Palpatine who saves him, do you think that he also gets a bit burnt in the proccess and that's why his skin becomes like it is in Return of the Jedi? That seems to make sense, it's just that I remeber hearing George Lucas once say that the evil inside Palpatine is literally coroding his skin over time. Nice idea but I hope the lava explanation is used instead.
Nasty Pasty

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« Reply #22 on: 09-19-2004 14:40 »

I think that the movies should be cleaned up to make them DVD quality, but I disagree with the CG additions. Leave the scenes the way we enjoyed them.
newhook_1

Urban Legend
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« Reply #23 on: 09-19-2004 14:40 »

They'd be wise not to reveal that Anakin is Vader in episode 3. We should think that Anakin is dead, and that ObiWan is lying to Luke in episode 4 when he says Vader killed Anakin(Viewers would think it was actually Obi Wan). That way it won't ruin the impact of the line "Luke, I am your father!" Just think about, it would be even more of a bombshell than before.

Palpitine should just introduce Vader as his "enforcer" in episode 3, without mentioning that he saved Anakin.

Of course, I 'm only saying this in the intrest of preserving the storyline for people new to Star Wars.


Anyways, I prefer that the special effects be patched up (animated dewbacks, the landspeeder etc), but I'd rather that no new scenes be added or major changes be made to scenes (Jabba in episode 4).
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #24 on: 09-19-2004 14:43 »

Urgh, the new song makes me wanna upchuck.
Sivak

Delivery Boy
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« Reply #25 on: 09-19-2004 14:45 »

I didn't see Star Wars until around 1995 or so on TV.  The first one I saw was Empire.  I liked the films.  I never really had any complaints about the additions to them.  It's not quite the same as Lord of the Rings Extended Editions.  The only thing that seemed unnecessary to me is why they put the new Anakin at the end of RotJ.  I know the original actor looks nothing like him, and I know he won't look anything like that when he's older, but whatever...

From what I recall, the only real additions were just some better backgrounds in a few places, a few extra short scenes, a few improved visuals, and a celebration on the various worlds at the end of RotJ.

The good extras, I thought, were seeing the actual Sarlaac, seeing the wampaa, and a little more BG to the interior of Bespin.  Bespin was just a big, white area before.  The others were okay, not great.

Anyway, that's my take on it.
Nurdbot

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« Reply #26 on: 09-19-2004 15:06 »

In otherwords, detail good. Cutting bits out and sticking new bits in that suck bad.

What George needs is a website with Polls so he could ask the fans what they thinks first, but that never happens unless becomes the deep south Poll tommorow.
Bobby King

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #27 on: 09-19-2004 15:20 »

got my copy yesterday, I like the new one very much, even if you can see Naboo in the end of episode VI 
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
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« Reply #28 on: 09-19-2004 15:38 »

Untouched. Don't mess with my childhood icons.
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
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« Reply #29 on: 09-19-2004 15:51 »

You Trekkie Traitor!  wink

But yeah, at the very least release the original editions alongside the new versions (I'm suprised to hear that they've revamped them again, though).
Action Jacktion

Professor
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« Reply #30 on: 09-19-2004 16:02 »
« Last Edit on: 09-19-2004 16:02 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by Sivak:
The only thing that seemed unnecessary to me is why they put the new Anakin at the end of RotJ.  I know the original actor looks nothing like him, and I know he won't look anything like that when he's older, but whatever...
I think the official explanation is that Anakin reverts to what he looked like before he officially went over to the Dark Side.  Of course, he becomes good again before he dies, so it seems like it would make more sense to see the older one.

   
Quote
The good extras, I thought, were seeing the actual Sarlaac, seeing the wampaa, and a little more BG to the interior of Bespin.  Bespin was just a big, white area before.  The others were okay, not great.
I hope the DVD version didn't remove the guy with the ice cream maker.
VelourFog

Space Pope
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« Reply #31 on: 09-19-2004 16:40 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nurdbot:
 What George needs is a website with Polls so he could ask the fans what they thinks first, but that never happens unless becomes the deep south Poll tommorow.
The only way he'd use polls is to determine the what the fans want and do the opposite. He's a fan hating bastard.
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #32 on: 09-19-2004 16:54 »

Oh god, why do all the great things owners and writers hate the fans!?  cry
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #33 on: 09-19-2004 17:11 »
« Last Edit on: 09-19-2004 17:11 by totalnerduk »

Because many of the fans bear a similarity to you.

Edit: (  tongue ).
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #34 on: 09-19-2004 17:20 »

Hey, I payed money for the games I play.
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #35 on: 09-19-2004 17:58 »

I didn't....
>_>
<_<

Any I too wouldn't have a problem with him making changes to the film except for two things.  The originals were released (hell they could do double sided DVDs with the original on one side, and the tampered goods on the other).  The other reason is that he just keeps tampering with his fucking films.  What next, Indiana Jones with new and improved CGI boulder (maybe this time it won't be a boulder, I'm sure they can be even more "imaginative" ) chasing after him in the cave?  roll eyes

/me shakes his head
Nixorbo

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« Reply #36 on: 09-19-2004 18:24 »

The only, ONLY change I had a problem with (in '97) was Greedo shooting first.  Not because it takes away from Han's character, or something nerdy like that, but rather because THEY WERE TWO FREAKING FEET AWAY FROM EACH OTHER.  YOU DO NOT MISS FROM 2 FEET AWAY.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #37 on: 09-19-2004 18:28 »

That's the main gripe I had with it, too. When I saw that, I went into a full minute of shouting and gibbering madly at the TV.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #38 on: 09-19-2004 18:43 »
« Last Edit on: 09-19-2004 18:43 »

There's actually an interesting story about that, Winna.  They WERE going to redo the Indiana Jones films....but of all things, "South Park" may have been what stopped them.
 http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/articles/showarticle.php?ID=253

Anyways, I'll finally offer my perspective.

Now, I will submit that I largely grew up on the Special Editions.  I saw the originals first through rentals that year (also taped original Star Wars off the tv and watched it a ton), but when the Special Edition tapes were coming out we pre-ordered them and I watched them incessantly.

Now I loved them.  Someone earlier (who apparently has only seen the Special Editions) was defending them and saying they are not bad.  And they aren't.  But frankly the originals are just better.

Even when I first saw the special editions, some things didn't seem right.  The Sarlacc, with its gaping CGI beak, seemed somehow less ambiguously scary then then before.  The Jabba the Hutt scene in Star Wars just seemed unneccasary and dull.  Other little things did seem like improvements (new ship shots during the first Death Star battle) but it was truly a mixed bag.  But again I still loved them, because hey, I was a kid and loved anything Star Wars (I even convinced myself into liking Phantom Menace.  To be fair though I didn't need to convince myself to enjoy Attack of the Clones, which I really did enjoy).

This last summer I acquired the original versions on tape via a garage sale, and finally watched them recently.  And really, they do seem better.  CGI effects like the Mos Eisley entrace, the dewback, etc. often just seem distracting, often detracting from the point of the scene or just looking generally out of place.  Frankly, looking back the CGI effects actually tend to look significantly worse then the models.  They look unnatural and don't feel "real".  Yes, the singer puppet at Jabba's Palace in ROTJ looks somewhat embarrassing now, but at least she doesn't have an overly long and tedious musical number that has nothing to do with anything (and isn't even subtitled!) in the original.

But even barring which version is better...what Lucas is now doing with this dvd is just embarrassing.  Its not even the version I saw most as a child, its a "new" version that NO ONE has grown up with...and he expects everyone to just embrace it?  Yes, some will buy into it just as I did as a kid, often if only because they're such fans that even if they changed the word "Wookie" to "fur challenged animal" and digitally replaced the entire cast with ewoks they would buy it in desperation of needing to have the movies on dvd at all.  But newsflash, Lucas....ROTJ's ending has touched people profoundly for over two decades.  When a movie has that kind of impact for that long, its just a bad idea to fiddle with it. 

And the worst part to me is just the fact that he won't let the originals be seen again.  I read somewhere (might've been Aint it Cool News) that some film organization was holding this festival or something where they were showing the most important films of various decades.  For the 70's, they obviously picked Star Wars.  They needed the rights, but were told they could only show it if they played the 1997 version....no actually representing the true history of the movies, oh no.  Its like the Orwell 1984 mentality has now invaded Lucasfilm.  These are films that should and will be shown in film schools.  They are important history.  To just erase them.....I think that's just as bad as the thieves who stole the famous "Scream" poster in August.

But anyways, just sharing my feelings...continue discussion. 
Jack_Sparrow
Crustacean
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« Reply #39 on: 09-19-2004 19:15 »

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