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Author Topic: Thoughts on 6ACV07 - The late Philip J. Fry - SPOILERS  (Read 40581 times)
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cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #240 on: 07-31-2010 22:46 »

But they didn't "arrive" after they'd "left". They arrived beforehand, killing their past selves.

I know they didn't literally arrive AFTER they left, I was obviously referring to the chronology of the episode's narrative. I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant too. Don't be so pedantic.

They'd be with the original Leela and so on and all that time we saw in the future without Fry and the Professor would never have existed.

But it did exist. It does exist. Within an open loop. Had they not killed the originals, then it wouldn't, since the whole thing would (from the point of view of any observer) simply consist of the time machine "arriving", then the originals "departing". No time without Fry, Bender and Farnsworth would pass.

If you believe it to be cyclical time (which it isn't) then it didn't happen. Fry and the Professor went all the way around and arrived earlier than when they'd left meaning the events we saw with an ageing Leela didn't happen. The fact that we did see them, to be is just another piece of a mountain of evidence telling us that time isn't cyclical but the universe literally started again.
It has nothing to do with them killing the originals or not. If they don't kill their duplicates, they carry on with 2 Frys, 2 Professors and 2 Benders. None of that Leela going off with Cubert stuff. If they do kill their duplicates, things continue with 1 Fry, 1 Professor and 1 Bender. None of that Leela going off with Cubert stuff. There's absolutely no way for that side-plot to happen within a cyclical timeline as we saw it. It just doesn't work.

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As things stand, the time without them passed, and they squished themselves before they could depart and cause that to happen. But had they not departed already, they could not squish themselves, and so they must have departed. Were this a seperate and new universe, squishing themselves would not be a paradox. However, the self-squishing stops the episode from simply not having happened, by stopping the events within that loop from happening. Yet they happened, meaning that the loop is not closed. Since the loop is not closed, the paradox is free to exist, and to be corrected.
Or maybe time isn't cyclical and the universe started again. Makes a lot more sense, really, doesn't it?

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As for the time machine being now ten feet higher, that's not what I meant by "identical".
The time machine wasn't 10 feet higher, the universe was 10 feet lower.

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Each time that time cycles, it plays out differently depending on the interferences from the previous cycle, meaning that with the time machine, the travellers can change things. Without it, things happen as they happen, with the previous cycle being unable to interfere with the current one, without something to physically carry travellers (or something else) through the ending and the beginning.
So you're now bringing the concept of alternate timelines into things? Doesn't that contradict Occam's razor a hell of a lot more than just accepting that the universe is just created again and again?

Everything repeats itself, it doesn't literally start over. Hell, Fry could go back to the year 1999 (well, the third timeline's year 1999) and shoot himself in the head without any paradox now, since it's a future version of himself that he'd be killing.
This is absolutely correct.


totalnerduk, I think you're really over-thinking things here. I don't care how much more cyclical time works within scientific possibility, the writers clearly didn't intend it to be that way. Not only is there Fry's line in The Cryonic Woman but there are countless hints from the episode itself that suggest otherwise.

And I still don't see why the universe repeating itself isn't a scientific possibility, nothing said that the universes were 100% identical. They were just clearly very similar. And as for the time machine being present at the big bang, it existed outside of time. And as for the big bang having fewer atoms to work with in the first place -there are many things that could explain this such as it happening each time a universe is created or another time machine coming along. Who knows? My point is that regardless of how much you hate it, if you watch the episode, they obviously didn't intend for it to be cyclical time.

The Professor's dialogue suggests its a new universe. He might be wrong, but he's generally always correct unless it's for the purpose of a plot point which it wasn't here.
We see the original universe's future without Fry and the Professor and Bender. This makes 0 sense if time is cyclical as it would never have happened.
They kill their duplicates. There would be no need for that to happen if time were cyclical as all they'd actually have to do is wait a minute for their past selves to leave in the time machine. It'd be generating an utterly pointless paradox that doesn't need to exist to close a time loop as you put it. If time really is cyclical, killing themselves just causes further problems.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #241 on: 07-31-2010 22:50 »
« Last Edit on: 07-31-2010 22:52 by totalnerduk »

Cyclical time. You're wrong. I don't feel like typing out another long rebuttal, so this is what you get: Cyclical time. You're wrong.

You just said it yourself. Time repeating itself. Rather than, you know, new time.

God, I must be tired. I meant that to be the other way round.

I am also tired. From now on I have the energy to disagree, but not to explain. tongue
Erdrik

Professor
*
« Reply #242 on: 07-31-2010 23:06 »

10/10 awsome episode.

totalnerduk, Im gunna go ahead and disagree with you simply becuase of how much of a jerk your being.  laff

Tho aside from that reason I definetly.. still disagree with you.
Cyclic time would cuase a paradox if they kill their future selves before said future selves leave in the time machine.
No paradox would be created if it is linear time with new universes spawning after the each ones death.

What you are suggesting is actualy what I will refer to as spiraling time.
where in each loop around is changed by the previous.

Feel free to disagree with me.
FemJesse

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #243 on: 07-31-2010 23:54 »

Cyclic time would cuase a paradox if they kill their future selves before said future selves leave in the time machine.
No paradox would be created if it is linear time with new universes spawning after the each ones death.
Right, and then how come they had to kill their paradox copies upon returning unless they were at some point existing outside of time to create a new copy.
Erdrik

Professor
*
« Reply #244 on: 08-01-2010 00:18 »

I never said they weren't outside of time at some point.
Being outside of time is what prevented them from being destroyed when the universe ended.
That much is not what I disagree with.

My point is, in a cyclic time universe, any thing they do to what is essentialy their past selves will also effect their current selves.
IE were the universe cyclic in nature, squishing their past selves with their time machine would prevent their past selves from going to the future.
If their past selves never went to the future then they never went to the future.
If they never went to the future then they never squished their past selves.
IE time paradox.

However if time is linear then they are not actualy killing themselves.
Rather they are killing identicaly recreated versions of themselves(universe #3 versions).
In which case they are only preventing the UV#3 group from traveling forwards in time to UV#4, which does not prevent UV#1 groups original time traveling trip. IE No paradox.

Crash_7

Professor
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« Reply #245 on: 08-01-2010 00:18 »

I finally got around to viewing it.  Easily the best of the new season.  Equals any episode from the original run, in my opinion.  10.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #246 on: 08-01-2010 00:32 »

I finally got around to viewing it.  Easily the best of the new season.  Equals any episode from the original run, in my opinion.  10.

Any episode?  You do know that not all the episodes of the original run were brilliant like this one?
homerjaysimpson

Space Pope
****
« Reply #247 on: 08-01-2010 00:32 »

Best episode of the season so far. It really made you think about time.
TServo2049
Delivery Boy
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« Reply #248 on: 08-01-2010 00:33 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 04:05 »

My take on it: Screw all this technical stuff. Fry doesn't seem to care whether it's universe 1 or universe 3, or whether this Leela is Leela 1 or Leela 3. (Remember what robot Fry said in Rebirth: "I love Leela, any Leela.")

And besides, a non-robot/Farnsworth-Parabox-alternate-universe-equivalent/time paradox duplicate Fry and a non-robot/AU Leela are finally dating! Do the shippy dance! love
Crash_7

Professor
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« Reply #249 on: 08-01-2010 00:46 »

I finally got around to viewing it.  Easily the best of the new season.  Equals any episode from the original run, in my opinion.  10.

Any episode?  You do know that not all the episodes of the original run were brilliant like this one?

??  Yeah, by saying it equals any from the original run, I'm saying it's at least as good as any of them, including the best of those.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #250 on: 08-01-2010 00:48 »

I finally got around to viewing it.  Easily the best of the new season.  Equals any episode from the original run, in my opinion.  10.

Any episode?  You do know that not all the episodes of the original run were brilliant like this one?

??  Yeah, by saying it equals any from the original run, I'm saying it's at least as good as any of them, including the best of those.

Including the worst of those as well.  And that is my problem.  I hate the whole 'original run' vs 'new run' sentiment.
Fnord
Starship Captain
****
« Reply #251 on: 08-01-2010 00:52 »

And some spell-checking could probably be used here.

What would a spell checker help in this case?  'Bacteriology' is in the spell checker, but not 'proctology'.  In addition, both 'ceasing' and 'seizing' are in the spell checker.

Sorry, I meant "proofreading" there. My bad.

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Quote
EDIT EDIT: And Bender says "Yabba Dabba Doo", not "Jabba Dabba Doo". Durn kids haven't seen The Flintstones.

I saw The Flintstones in Danish, don't sue me!

Okay, I'll let you go on this one. But there are plenty of people in the USA who can't spell their own language.
Ralph Snart

Agent Provocateur
Near Death Star Inhabitant
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #252 on: 08-01-2010 00:58 »


Including the worst of those as well.  And that is my problem.  I hate the whole 'original run' vs 'new run' sentiment.

But that's how most people are going to view the old run vs. the new run.  Somebody made a comment about the straight-to-DVDs not being canon, but TLPJF shows that the writers/creators do view them as canon.

The old run vs the new run have one major difference - the old run had Fry chasing Leela and Leela staying aloofly distant.  the new run has started with them starting a new relationship.  In a way, the new run is making Leela appear more likable and sympathetic.  It's also showing Fry asbecoming more aware of what it takes to make a relationship succeed, so these two main characters have major differences from the FOX run.

And to all of the Susan Boil haters, I enjoyed AOTKA.  Actually, I've enjoyed ever one of the CC's run of Futurama.  Here's hoping for another 26 episode order to be announced soon.
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #253 on: 08-01-2010 01:08 »

But that's how most people are going to view the old run vs. the new run.  Somebody made a comment about the straight-to-DVDs not being canon, but TLPJF shows that the writers/creators do view them as canon.

As if Rebirth didn't establish that?
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #254 on: 08-01-2010 01:17 »

And some spell-checking could probably be used here.

What would a spell checker help in this case?  'Bacteriology' is in the spell checker, but not 'proctology'.  In addition, both 'ceasing' and 'seizing' are in the spell checker.

Sorry, I meant "proofreading" there. My bad.

That's true.  Still; having English as a second language and being a dyslexic doesn't help.  But I think my transcription did rather well.  Only minor issues!

Quote
Quote
EDIT EDIT: And Bender says "Yabba Dabba Doo", not "Jabba Dabba Doo". Durn kids haven't seen The Flintstones.

I saw The Flintstones in Danish, don't sue me!

Okay, I'll let you go on this one. But there are plenty of people in the USA who can't spell their own language.

They are probably speaking 'American'.


Including the worst of those as well.  And that is my problem.  I hate the whole 'original run' vs 'new run' sentiment.

But that's how most people are going to view the old run vs. the new run.  Somebody made a comment about the straight-to-DVDs not being canon, but TLPJF shows that the writers/creators do view them as canon.

I always considered the films canon.  I consider every episode and film canon; regardless of how much I enjoyed them in general.  I understand why some Star Warsfans might not consider the prequel canons, because they in general, all round, suck.  But I can understand some saying, 'it's a package, you can't just pick canon'.  And as a Futurama fan, I stand by this ideal.  This is also why I cannot be a Star Wars fan.  I hate the prequels too much.

Plus what cyber_turnip said.

The old run vs the new run have one major difference - the old run had Fry chasing Leela and Leela staying aloofly distant.  the new run has started with them starting a new relationship.  In a way, the new run is making Leela appear more likable and sympathetic.  It's also showing Fry asbecoming more aware of what it takes to make a relationship succeed, so these two main characters have major differences from the FOX run.

I realise that the new run would be different, anyone being surprised by this is an idiot.  Seriously.  But in the same way, season 4 is rather different from season 1.  In season 1 and 2, Leela was much more a 'mother character' (examples like "My Three Suns" and "Brannigan, Begin Again" should highlight this), then progressed into a love interest for Fry in season 3 and 4.

A show has to change over time, otherwise it gets stuck in a rut.  In addition, if Leela remained reluctant to give Fry something in return, her character would become less and less appreciated by fans.  You can't have two characters in any show being pursuing either one-sided or by both without ever concluding on the matter.  It gets boring and annoying in the long run.

And to all of the Susan Boil haters, I enjoyed AOTKA.  Actually, I've enjoyed ever one of the CC's run of Futurama.  Here's hoping for another 26 episode order to be announced soon.

I enjoyed AOTKA too!  But still, the Susan Boil joke didn't carry it for me.  But I refuse to focus my criticism on an episode on one miss joke.

Also, I doubt it will be a 26 episode order.  But there's always hope.  Ahahaha...
* Svip wipes tear.
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #255 on: 08-01-2010 01:33 »


 Ham bone!

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #256 on: 08-01-2010 01:44 »

It's two words?!  NOW you tell me.

Wait, no, you're wrong.  It is one word.  I thought hobbitboy was smarter than that.  Exposing himself as incorrect.
Ghost and Horse

Crustacean
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« Reply #257 on: 08-01-2010 02:39 »

So is the fact that I am new here and the fact that the debate seems to have died down and the fact that I am really not adding anything to the discussion mean that I shouldn't put in my two cents that I can't believe there are actually people who came out of this episode thinking that time is cyclical and that they ended up back at the beginning of the same universe and not a physical third universe even though that is entirely what the episode implied?
EvilChicken

Bending Unit
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« Reply #258 on: 08-01-2010 02:58 »

Who was the little sklit who put 1/10.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #259 on: 08-01-2010 02:58 »

Skilt?
Joysauce

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #260 on: 08-01-2010 03:21 »

I agree with TNUK.
wowbagger

Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #261 on: 08-01-2010 03:26 »

Was anyone else hoping to see a restaurant during the end of the universe?

Great call! I didn't think of this at the time of watching it, but in hindsight... this would have been an excellent opportunity to reference one of the all time great scifi comedies (from another all time great scifi comedy)!
Crash_7

Professor
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« Reply #262 on: 08-01-2010 03:58 »

Quote from: Svip

Including the worst of those as well.  And that is my problem.  I hate the whole 'original run' vs 'new run' sentiment.

I...don't think you're quite getting my gist, but whatever.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #263 on: 08-01-2010 04:01 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 04:11 »

Why? Generally speaking, if the Professor says something, that's what happened -unless it's pointed out that he's wrong later.

Eh, I don't know about that.  For one thing, the Professor is senile and often wrong for the sake of comedy.  And even when he is right, oftentimes it's merely to explain something to the audience that's actually definitive: e.g., his latest experiment is causing the crew to age backwards, or a giant trash ball is headed towards earth.  Basic plot info, and not the sort of thing that the audience would actually debate about later, in other words.

If nothing else, I sort of think the writers intended for this episode to be sort of confusing and ambiguous, and to inspire the sort of nerdy debates that we're seeing here and that I'm sure the writers are having plenty of fun reading.  So I don't feel the Professor's statement was necessarily the case, or rather, that it was meant to be the only valid interpretation.  Even the fact that they essentially just kill the clones/alternate versions of themselves before they could jet off seems to me to just be meant to be funny (the same way BBS wrapped up everything nicely...and then trotted out all the Benders "before they were logically supposed to" for laughs) rather than a particular "clue," although I'm sure they've put quite a few clues towards different interpretations into this one.

I will point out (I'm not sure if it's been pointed out before; it was on Infosphere) that the Professor's remote in Universe/Timeline A changes to something more resembling a car key in Universe/Timeline C, which could suggest that it is, indeed, an almost but not exactly identical alternate universe...but it could also suggest again that they're "time clones" and the changing remote is merely a way of differentiating them as such.

Now, regarding the new episodes vs. old..I agree with Svip.  It would be one thing if there were really large, jarring differences in the show stylistically in the current episodes vs. the FOX ones.  But the differences so far seem to me to be natural progression of the series.  The way the Fry/Leela angle is treated now vs. the original run is certainly one difference, but that was something that changed at least slightly every season...not something that changed all of sudden with the new shows.  Really, for a show to be canceled so long ago (eight years, production-wise!) and still feel this much like itself upon return is kind of remarkable.  It almost feels like it never left to me.
SorynArkayn

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #264 on: 08-01-2010 04:03 »

This was the first truly great new episode of Futurama this season. I rated it a 9/10.

It was both funny and dramatic -- although it didn't achieve the heights of "Amazon Women in the Mood" or "Jurassic Bark" in either category, which was why I rated it a 9 instead of a 10.

It started out a little weak with Bender and that floozy-bot going at it like construction machines, but after that it was golden. I loved the joke about how Planet Express finally became successful after the Professor was gone and Leela took over; and how apparently one of her first acts was firing Zoidberg because he was useless. Hilarious. The time travel song was pretty funny -- I know it was written by Lewis Morton (my favourite Futurama writer), but I wonder if Ken Keeler helped write the song, because that seems to be his specialty.

I liked how Bender wanted to stay in that Robots-killing-Humans future, and then he got his revenge on Fry and the Professor by making them leave the Sexy Women future. Did anyone else deduce that, had they stayed, the Sexy Women would've ceremoniously killed (and possibly eaten) Fry and the Prof after having sex with them?

The animation in this episode was spectacular; I could tell they put a lot of effort into designing each future era; especially the End of the Universe and the "Re-Creation" of the Universe. The part wherein the Prof stopped to kill Hitler was clever; as if it was the one and only thing everyone should do if they travel back in time. But then they screwed up and had to do the whole thing over again, but this time the Prof missed. (I can forgive the paradox of neither Hitler's pre-emptive assassination nor Eleanor Roosevelt's death apparently affecting the repeat-futures, since that's not what this episode was about. They were just funny gags.)

And the ending was really touching; a great end to a great episode.

I think that this episode singly redeems all of the poor episodes this season. The episodes have been getting better since the worst second episode, and the last two episodes were good. Finally, a GREAT episode; and one of the best of the series, which is amazing. This episode should be submitted for Emmy consideration, because it's arguably as good as "Roswell That Ends Well".
FemJesse

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #265 on: 08-01-2010 04:25 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 04:26 »

I agree Bartman, I never felt like Futurama really went anywhere. It hasn't been gone.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #266 on: 08-01-2010 04:43 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 04:52 »

The Fry that survives is more experienced, has the memory of Leela's love letter seared in his mind and can infer that the old Leela died alone, so he knows that what he and Leela share is precious and that he'd better hold on to it.  Works for me.

Works for me, too. This linear vs. cyclical thing is just a bunch of, y'know, circular debate. The episode (hell, the series as a whole) doesn't lose any emotional resonance because one Leela dies alone and one gets to spend the rest of her life (we should assume) with Fry. Leela 3 is the same as Leela 1 up to that fateful night; she has the same feelings for Fry and the same life experiences up to that point. So Leela 1 never sees Fry again--how does that change anything? With the exception of that one moment in time (granted, it changes everything that follows), Leela 1 and Leela 3 are identical.

Edit (for Frisco): TRAGIC STUFF.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #267 on: 08-01-2010 04:47 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 04:49 »

How tragic is it really though. The Leela in one universe dies alone and the Leela in another has Fry around but if we're talking about different universes why does the fate of the Leela that is left behind bother people more than the other ones. When you think about it there is an infinite number of universes where Leela is alone and an infinite number where Fry is there and every other imaginable possibility.

Edit: Gorky removed the reference to it being tragic and with it the reason for my post. Way to make me look bad Gorky!
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #268 on: 08-01-2010 04:52 »

I'm kind of glad people feel so bad for Leela 1, considering she's a hard character for a lot of people to like. The notion that she spends 40 years being bitter and marrying Cubert for that spark of Fry that's alive in him is kind of depressing, but it offers a lot of insight into her character. And that's never a bad thing.

And I don't feel so bad for Leela 1--she comes to terms with everything; at least she doesn't die thinking Fry's last act was a selfish one. My point is that Leela 1 and Leela 3 are essentially the same character, and it's not like the Leela in whom we've had an emotional investment for six seasons no longer exists.
FemJesse

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #269 on: 08-01-2010 05:45 »

Right but I'm sad that Leela 1 was never able to move on from Fry and find happiness and love, after thinking he was dead. She just kinda settled for the first guy that reminded her of him... which is kind of out of character for her since she used to be so picky (remember lizard tongue?)
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #270 on: 08-01-2010 06:17 »

I wouldn't say settling for someone that reminded her of Fry was out of character at all. I mean look at her history and two of the most significant men she's dated where similar to Fry. There's Sean who was as lazy, uneducated, etc and there's Lars who was Fry.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #271 on: 08-01-2010 06:19 »

Also, earlier in the series she was presumably just dating around (or not dating, as they case sometimes was), whereas by this point she was essentially in love with Fry.  It makes sense that she would go for the person who most closely resembles him, since it's what she really wants.  It's about as picky as she can be by that point.
TServo2049
Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #272 on: 08-01-2010 06:23 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 07:16 »

Right but I'm sad that Leela 1 was never able to move on from Fry and find happiness and love, after thinking he was dead. She just kinda settled for the first guy that reminded her of him... which is kind of out of character for her since she used to be so picky (remember lizard tongue?)

Guh, it's obviously because even though she felt so hurt by Fry, Leela was still so attached to him that she couldn't move on. Remember her message, that the time she had with Fry was the best time of her life; even though she was bitter and angry, deep down Leela was so torn apart by unfinished business, so subconsciously obsessed with recapturing that lost time, that she let herself fall for Cubert simply because he was the closest thing to Fry.

I think that by this point, Leela has passed the point of no return. She loves Fry, and it's pretty clear (even if she hasn't *fully* consciously acknowledged it yet) that Fry is in fact the only man who can make her truly happy, the only man she can ever love (and yes, I'm paraphrasing what she said about Lars on purpose). That's why old Leela couldn't "move on from Fry and find happiness and love." She can never love anyone else but Fry, nor can she find true happiness in a life without Fry. She needed that birthday card to provide closure.

(Spleesh, am I piling on the melodramatic cliches or what? big grin)
lilkitten29

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #273 on: 08-01-2010 07:01 »

This may sound silly or whatever, but this episode has got me to look at the universe in a different way and it also makes me appreciate my life and what I have now. For a television show to have such an impact on me means a lot.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #274 on: 08-01-2010 07:39 »

I've seen a lot of talk about this whole Time-Travel debate and I wouldn't be me if I didn't add my own hole-filled, contradictory, rambling thoughts on the subject of what this episode means for the characters and the series. Plus, you guys get to have fun jamming a digital dunce hat on me afterwards.

First of all, I don't believe the universe must be remade the same way every time or every fourth time as different theories have stated. I respect those theories (some of my thoughts even overlap with portions of those theories), but they're just not what makes the most sense to me (despite that previous statement, not sense/nonsense will play heavily in my thoughts). I think it's most civil, no matter what disagreements we have (and this is a royal we for everybody who cares to discuss this stuff), that we eventually let people believe what makes them happy (I definitely need this, since I'd be surprised if even one of you approve of what I'm going to say).

Let's get on with it.

Rise from your ashes!- In my overall view, there is only one Futurama-verse that is reborn twice. Like a Phoenix, it dies and in its place a new yet identical Phoenix is born. In this sense, there are not two Phoenixes, one of which is a descendant of the other (and so on after that), but a single phoenix that lives and dies multiple times. This applies to how I view the reborn Futurama-verse as well, especially its inhabitants. Yet, why only twice reborn? Well...

Complete destruction or none at all!- I believe the Futuramaverse doesn't move out the way for a completely new one until it's completely gone. Despite being unaffected by the outside forces because of their constant moving through time, I still believe our travelers were part of the Futuramaverse on some level or dimension or whatever. This leads me to think that, like how only a single cell could be used to clone a being, their being made it so their universe wasn't completely destroyed along with the rest of itself. It survived as them, their timeship, the beer they drank, whatever. Point is it still existed, yet it shouldn't have. Thus, the only solution to this was for their universe to be relaunched from them and continuously start over until it could finally completely end and make room for a completely new one (one that wasn't identical or mostly identical to the previous one). To me, this is supported by The Professor mentioning that killing the Universe 3 versions of themselves stopped a Time-Travel paradox, that being the continuous rebirth of their universe by their attending and surviving what should have been its destruction (stopping it by continuing to exist themselves). As for the universe two versions of themselves, I see it as a temporary loop where 2 became 1 and 3 would have become one and so on until they finally stopped themselves from witnessing the end of all things. This is actually the theory I'm most satisfied with, but I still came up with more stuff for fun, such as...

You are me, but I am you, or Let's get Meta-Physical!- Upcoming is something I don't think I've seen anybody discuss in these various theories. This isn't based in any real science and is instead based in belief, I pair it with my halted destruction theory because I don't believe science and belief can't go hand-in-hand. As I think, the reborn versions of the Futurama-verse did not feature completely identical versions of our beloved characters (or any other inhabitants), but instead the exact same characters living their lives again. There were changes on the second and third runs made possible by our travelers free-will and free will in general, most notably the third run where our travelers were able to make their way back home and thus change the fate of the universe as it was in the first two runs (from their return date onward). This means that I accept all runs of the Futurama-verse as having existed/occurred/whatever, but I also don't believe our characters, the ones we spent years with, are "replaced" by exactly similar ones. It's here where I really get all meta-physical, but I believe that the people in run two and three are the same people from run 1, having been reborn and lived their lives essentially the same way (that doesn't mean they don't have free will, by the way. Just that they exercised their will to the same conclusions as their first runs), with run two having mostly repeated run one and run three being completely different from the arrival of our Time-Travelers onwards.

Maybe all of this, all my thoughts, could be seen as a way of making myself feel better from the missing travelers influence in run two and three by essentially making them meet up with their friends and world in run three and be able to influence it and have it in some sense still be the same friends and world and be the grand finale finisher to the Futurama-verse as we know it, but it's what I believe and what makes me "reasonably satisfied (read, overjoyed) with the events I have foreseen". If that makes me a big softy, then so be it.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #275 on: 08-01-2010 10:07 »

The Fry that survives is more experienced, has the memory of Leela's love letter seared in his mind and can infer that the old Leela died alone, so he knows that what he and Leela share is precious and that he'd better hold on to it.  Works for me.

Works for me, too. This linear vs. cyclical thing is just a bunch of, y'know, circular debate. The episode (hell, the series as a whole) doesn't lose any emotional resonance because one Leela dies alone and one gets to spend the rest of her life (we should assume) with Fry.

It's not emotional resonance I'm trying to preserve by insisting that the time model portrayed is cyclical, it's the sense-making and scientific integrity of the episode (and the show as a whole).

I believe the Futuramaverse doesn't move out the way for a completely new one until it's completely gone. Despite being unaffected by the outside forces because of their constant moving through time, I still believe our travelers were part of the Futuramaverse on some level or dimension or whatever. This leads me to think that, like how only a single cell could be used to clone a being, their being made it so their universe wasn't completely destroyed along with the rest of itself. It survived as them, their timeship, the beer they drank, whatever. Point is it still existed, yet it shouldn't have. Thus, the only solution to this was for their universe to be relaunched from them and continuously start over until it could finally completely end and make room for a completely new one (one that wasn't identical or mostly identical to the previous one). To me, this is supported by The Professor mentioning that killing the Universe 3 versions of themselves stopped a Time-Travel paradox, that being the continuous rebirth of their universe by their attending and surviving what should have been its destruction (stopping it by continuing to exist themselves). As for the universe two versions of themselves, I see it as a temporary loop where 2 became 1 and 3 would have become one and so on until they finally stopped themselves from witnessing the end of all things.

Now that's an interesting take on things. I agree (obviously) with the cyclical and temporary loop portions, but to say that the travellers' being outside of time is what caused time to loop in the first place, now that's something I had not thought of, but it does support my theory, so I'm willing to accept it as possible.

I'm close to acheiving a fully completed model of Futuramaverse time, time travel, and paradox resolution here. If I get it finished, I'll post it and end all Futurama related time travel debate forever. tongue
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #276 on: 08-01-2010 12:10 »


   It's two words?!  NOW you tell me.

   Wait, no, you're wrong.  It is one word.


Huh?  What is one word?


   I thought hobbitboy was smarter than that.  Exposing himself as incorrect.


You thought wrong. I expose myself all the time.

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
Javier Lopez

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #277 on: 08-01-2010 12:15 »

Awesome episode.... i enjoyed it a lot... its also impossible absurd even for futurama standards (ship moves the entire universe arround.. etc) but nevermind the time travel and the universe cycle was simply awesome .. the episode was also quite "Futuramish" .

The consecutive universes got me by surprise , when they were withnesing the end of the universe i tought time was going to travel backwards to the start of the universe again and then forward again until they could stop in 3010 ...
I guess i watched too much Red Dwarf (episode "Backwards" dealed with the universe  going time backwards once it reached its end , and episode "White Hole" adressed similarly too..
Speaking of Red Dward it would be nice if they would had stoped in the year 3.002.270 and added some gag with Red Dwarf .
I was expecting somehow a gag with the sun going nova / red giant .. wich acording to today theories should hapen in 5billion years (sun is 4.5 billionyears old and is at 1/3 of its life, suposed to turn into a red giant in 5billion years wich would be the end of Earth and continue its last cycle as a white dwarf )

the Planet Express shipping company was also awesome, specially the several ships and the larger version.

And i guess fanfiction/fanart artists now have how an older Leela will look to work with
[-mArc-]

Administrator
Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #278 on: 08-01-2010 12:33 »

[...] it does support my theory, so I'm willing to accept it as possible.

That's not how science works tongue

I'll go with the linearly repeating multiple bang theory myself and be more perplexed with the space component of space-time travel. How did the Tard... Forward Time Machine manage to stay in one spot (New New York) all the time where "one spot" was moving around the Earth's axis, the sun, the galaxy, etc. throughout time. And yet, it was also at the Luitpoldarena in Nürnberg. I think we don't have a full understanding of what the Time Machine can do wink
Javier Lopez

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #279 on: 08-01-2010 12:50 »
« Last Edit on: 08-01-2010 12:51 »

considering that spot involved Germany at one point , or the very spot where "that fish" went into dry land  , i think "how it stayed in the same place" is not the main problem big grin

Also it reminds me of this:



"What has just happened to our cool Martin McFly?"



"Martin McFly moved in time but not in space"
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