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Author Topic: Thoughts on 6ACV07 - The late Philip J. Fry - SPOILERS  (Read 62691 times)
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PEE Poll: Rating
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Total Members Voted: 204

SolidSnake

Professor
*
« Reply #520 on: 07-23-2013 07:23 »

Ahh, this episode deserved the 10/10 I gave it. Truly Fantastic, on-par with Roswell Ends Well, Time Keeps Slippin, Devils Hands, it was purely Futurama's best. It is most definitely my favorite episode, or at least one of my favorites. For now, I'll say it's my favorite! :D
Monster_Robot_Maniac

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #521 on: 11-09-2013 17:18 »
« Last Edit on: 07-31-2023 10:12 »

 ..
stum

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #522 on: 11-09-2013 18:20 »

I've never seen it described as the best episode ever.
ShinyMetal***

Professor
*
« Reply #523 on: 11-10-2013 03:55 »

Well now you have, twice in fact!

You are now officially more experienced than yesterday.

Anywho, I've only seen half of it, beginning to middle. Imma have to re-watch it to rate it. Though I thought it was pretty good so far.
Extrablood

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #524 on: 07-20-2023 16:07 »

Great episode, easily makes the top 10 for me, possibly top 5.

Had a bit of everything, interesting plotline, decent humour, awesome song, touching moments, clever resolution. Felt like an episode from the classic era which didn't rely on current pop references so will age well.

The only problems were that the Planet of the Apes gag, which was good up to the Ape statue of liberty, went on way too long and kinda got annoying.

I liked that gag, I don't think the gag really works if you stop at the apes statue to be honest.

I wonder what wound up happening with the universe in between, supposedly Fry and Leela would still meet but there wouldn't have been an interruption when they were using the time machine so the same thing that happened to the "real" Fry happened to the second one. Would it cause a loop where they're all destined to repeat the same mistakes? Should we even care?

I think the in-between universe, lets call it universe 2 (even though there may have been a infinite number of universes before it) would do the same thing as original fry so they would skip universe 3 and kill their counterparts in universe 4, universe 5 would kill universe 7, 6 would kill 8 and so on. So in half the universes Fry, Hubert and Bender just disappear on that day and in the other half they are killed and replaced by  copies from another universe.
zappdingbat

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #525 on: 07-22-2023 02:56 »

I wonder what wound up happening with the universe in between, supposedly Fry and Leela would still meet but there wouldn't have been an interruption when they were using the time machine so the same thing that happened to the "real" Fry happened to the second one. Would it cause a loop where they're all destined to repeat the same mistakes? Should we even care?

I think the in-between universe, lets call it universe 2 (even though there may have been a infinite number of universes before it) would do the same thing as original fry so they would skip universe 3 and kill their counterparts in universe 4, universe 5 would kill universe 7, 6 would kill 8 and so on. So in half the universes Fry, Hubert and Bender just disappear on that day and in the other half they are killed and replaced by  copies from another universe.

Does Universe 5 ever get created though?

Assuming the travel from Universe 2 happens, the character timelines seem to be:

1 -> 3
2 -> 4

The Universe 1 characters kill the Universe 3 characters before they enter the time machine, so there's no jump from Universe 3

Likewise, the Universe 2 characters kill the Universe 4 characters before they enter the time machine, so there's no jump from Universe 4.

So, Fry, Hubert, and Bender seem to disappear from Universe 1 & 2. And, the same characters in Universe 3 & 4 are replaced with their earlier counterparts.

Thus, (mostly) avoiding any time travel paradoxes.
David A

Space Pope
****
« Reply #526 on: 07-22-2023 04:49 »

Does Universe 5 ever get created though?

Sure.  If time is cyclical, then Universe 5 is created after the end of Universe 4, even if no one from Universe 3 or Universe 4 ever travels there.

Maybe the characters from Universe 5 will travel to Universe 6 or Universe 7...
zappdingbat

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #527 on: 07-22-2023 05:02 »

Does Universe 5 ever get created though?

Sure.  If time is cyclical, then Universe 5 is created after the end of Universe 4, even if no one from Universe 3 or Universe 4 ever travels there.

Ah, true enough. So, cycles of four.
transgender nerd under canada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #528 on: 07-22-2023 20:17 »
« Last Edit on: 07-22-2023 20:18 »

You all thought I was off my bullshit. But no, I'm back on it. And this bullshit is a well-sculpted hill I am prepared to die on (until the writers of the show change canon or continuity sufficiently to ensure I can no longer defend it).

Does Universe 5 ever get created though?

Sure.  If time is cyclical, then Universe 5 is created after the end of Universe 4, even if no one from Universe 3 or Universe 4 ever travels there.

Maybe the characters from Universe 5 will travel to Universe 6 or Universe 7...

Nah, this isn't it.

For a start, you're describing a cycle of separate but similar, repeating universes on a linear timeline.

For another, we know that time in the Futuramaverse is cyclical (and I can probably dig out the stuff that led me to that conclusion a few years ago if I can find sufficient motivation. It's all on a hard drive somewhere around here).

And cyclical time gives us multiple iterations of the same universe (positioned a few feet lower each time in order to conveniently resolve certain plot threads).

There are only three cycles depicted in TLPJF. The original departure of the timeship, the overshot, and the eventual resolution of the plot. The second play-through of the universe does contain a second set of departures, but since they will come back around again, they will land in the fourth cycle. This creates a stable loop of two cycles, with odd numbered cycles being identical save for the unfortunate circumstances of Elanor Roosevelt's death every second one, and even numbered cycles being identical save for the alternation in leaders of the Nazi party during the Third Reich from one even numbered cycle to the next.

Cyclical time makes sense within the framework of Futurama because (IIRC) BBS shows that the paradox of time duplicates must be resolved within the same timeline, meaning that split timelines and therefore separate universes are not a "thing". And changes to time that affect the future appear only within the context of a single episode during which multiple loops are set up which resolve themselves over the course of the episode to follow Fry's golden rule of TV (everything's the same as it previously was once the episode ends).

It's also one of the mechanisms that allow Fry to have been and always have been his own grandfather - this is not a predestination paradox if the timeline does not split, it's a causal loop (Fry seeks out his "grandfather" Enos, gets Enos killed, fathers Yancy, and Yancy fathers Fry. Fry then travels back, making a loop of the whole affair. Where did Fry come from? Yancy. Where did Yancy come from? Fry. It's a bootstrap paradox, but it doesn't violate the self-consistency principle, which is the important part in a cyclical time model).

So the overall progression of time on the circle from beginning to end is accounted for, and the tendancy of paradoxes to be corrected or resolved and events to therefore overall play out in the same general "shape" is due to temporal inertia.

This is the only model which preserves the continuity and canon of all of the time travel episodes (AOTPM being only slightly wibbly-wobbly here), and mainly saved by the virtue of the self-consistency principle having been preserved by the travellers in their trip to set events back on their original course. Here there is a clear example of an actual timeline split, and the events undertaken to push things back to their previous state as an example of temporal inertia at work.

Thus, in the fourth cycle of the universe, the timeship crew who set off in the second iteration will appear and squish their fourth-cycle counterparts. There will be another departure in the fifth universe, and these timeship voyagers will squish their seventh-cycle equivalents. Meanwhile, the travellers in the sixth cycle will come back to squish their eighth-cycle selves.

Yes, the cycle repeats in fours. No, these are not separate universes. Think of them as different performances of the same play, or different analog TV broadcasts of the same show - you'll get differences. Little ones here and there of absolutely no overall significance.

Static on the screen. Fuzz. Fizz. Fritz. But you can still see the picture. And the big bang is the place where the tape loops. It'll play through the same tape again, but the next broadcast will be received with a differing static pattern, making no difference but still being unique.

Odd numbered cycles thus form a loop within the cycle of four, and even numbered cycles form another. So we see another demonstration that time is cyclical rather than linear in that this is a double, overlapping loop (and the height differential is both a fun little dark joke and an easy way of resolving the problem created by the exclusion principle. Sure, they could have appeared and landed right after their original selves departed, but the dark humor is a staple of the show, so...).

Anyway, all of this means time has to be a circle in the Futuramaverse because in linear time, universes would be 100% deterministic to give the same outcomes to each universe rather than having any flexibility. That flexibility between outcomes, that static, means that we're looking at free will and a level of determinism that still allows for choices to be made. And so we don't see a runaway butterfly effect from "one universe" to the "next". Rather, from one cycle to the next, we see static in the picture but it's substantially the same picture.

Which is the underlying principle that allows for an eventual escape from the conditions of Meanwhile and a return to the normal flow of time for Farnsworth, Fry, and Leela. But that's a whole 'nother hypothesis for another day.
David A

Space Pope
****
« Reply #529 on: 07-22-2023 23:46 »

I'm not reading all of that, but it looks a lot like you're using an awful lot of words to say the same thing that zappdingbat just said in a lot fewer words.
Extrablood

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #530 on: 07-24-2023 00:00 »
« Last Edit on: 07-24-2023 00:03 »

I don't think the episode proves one way or the other that time is cyclical or linear and I actually haven't seen the final episode since it aired so don't really remember much from it so can't comment on that. But if the writers intended the timeline to be cyclical they probably wouldn't have the professor announce that this new universe is identical to the last.

It's not conclusive but just but the writers seem to be confirming the multiple big bang theory rather than time being cyclical in this episode. There was also the time Fry confirmed to that defrostee the time was a straight line when he was doing the anal probe on him.

transgender nerd under canada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #531 on: 07-31-2023 06:21 »
« Last Edit on: 07-31-2023 06:23 »

I'm not reading all of that, but it looks a lot like you're using an awful lot of words to say the same thing that zappdingbat just said in a lot fewer words.

Reading it would help illuminate the difference. The difference being that time is a circle not a line, it's one single universe being played like a looped tape in a TV broadcasting tower, and I've been saying this since TLPJF aired.


It's not conclusive but just but the writers seem to be confirming the multiple big bang theory rather than time being cyclical

Internal consistency across multiple episodes being preserved by the simple application of the CT rather than CU model would appear to demonstrate the inverse, ie: CT is in effect. And quantum determinism being absent from the Futuramaverse (instead, all possible universes exist in an infinitely parallel arrangement) would seem to be the final nail in the coffin of the CU argument.

I wish I knew where those terrible MSPaint diagrams had gotten to.
Imy

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #532 on: 08-02-2023 15:03 »
« Last Edit on: 08-02-2023 15:05 »

Dude, what I would give to get an episode like this in 2023. They channeled the soul of the original run with this one - the premise, the humor, the emotional stakes. Granted how rocky the first 2 episodes of the CC revival were and we still got TLPJF, Iím holding out hope. And constantly reminding myself that the critics only saw 6 out of 10 epsÖ 4 chances to hit gold at the end!!!
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #533 on: 08-02-2023 16:04 »

I bet this is the episode you're talking about!
transgender nerd under canada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #534 on: 08-12-2023 21:55 »

Okay, so. I doubt anybody cares any more. But I finally have the working model for time travel in Futurama sorted out.

Taking into account everything, I've determined the following via simple logic:

There's no determinism, but there's a rough endpoint that precludes certain outcomes. Which means that there's a strong quasi-deterministic influence on the overall shape of events. We can call that fate, but it's really the result of the collapse of quantum probability waveforms as possibilities become closed due to the advance of both time and circumstance. (FWH, TLPJF).

Time travel is, of course, possible. (RTEW, BBS, TLPJF, TWOF, etc.)

Whatever happens, happens, but can be undone. It still happened, but it no longer happened in a way that influences the course of events after it - time is therefore changed, and yet paradoxes are resolved without the need for branched timelines. (TWOF).

Time paradoxes are subject to a crude internal mechanic dubbed the "doom field" which brute-forces a resolution. The practical effect of this is that if you travel backwards through time and thereby duplicate yourself, you're going to die. Probably horribly. Maybe hilariously as well. (BBS).

There's a beginning and an end to time. (TLPJF).

Since there's no determinism, and since quantum fluctuations occurring at the Planck scale are going to totally ruin any attempts at repeatability from a whole-ass universe ending to a new one restarting, and since events that play out in time are confined by a specific probability matrix to have a certain overall form and direction, this suggests that time is a cyclical force. It is curved around to form a not-quite-circle. There's a slight discontinuity in time's surface at the end vs. the beginning.

A linear model and a cyclical universe would be deterministic and therefore isn't happening within the Futuramaverse model. Read the notes in chronological order (clockwise around the circle) and it should make sense.



Now, at first glance, ATPH does seem to throw a wrench into the works.

But in ATPH, we are seeing a multi-layered timeclip.



Several trips are made to affect the same general sequence of events, leading to several points of discontinuity across a long period, and eventually bridging these with a sequence that conforms roughly to the original "shape" of history. Once again, the timeline is changed, rather than branched (as it would be, were time linear, and not something that joins up at the ends).

There's no real difference between this and the timeclip in TWOF: it's just got a few more layers.

Barring new wrinkles being introduced, this is how time, time travel, the universe, and temporal paradoxes work in Futurama. And of course, the writers may have had different ideas, but this is the end result of them all in aggregate. Whatever they thought they'd built, this is what they actually built.

And now that's done. The model is complete. I think I've fulfilled my intention here, and it only took me about ten years to do it! Hooray!




winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #535 on: 08-12-2023 23:02 »

Time is a cube actually
transgender nerd under canada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #536 on: 08-13-2023 05:22 »

Okay, Gene Ray.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #537 on: 08-13-2023 07:55 »

While we're discussing this episode so many years later, I was thinking: this is one that could have been a tv movie, or at least longer then twenty minutes.  They pack so much in, I think it would have made a better movie then say, The Beast with a Billion Backs or Bender's Game, and honestly I prefer its story to Bender's Big Score.
transgender nerd under canada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #538 on: 08-20-2023 07:00 »

Okay, so. I doubt anybody cares any more. But I finally have the working model for time travel in Futurama sorted out.

See also, (a more mechanistic explanation): this thread.
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