Black, white, Klingon, or even female - Star Trek

[Reply #40 on:]

Babylon 5 is well worth a watch, a great story. Just make sure you find the guide that tells you when to watch the movies

The Expanse Season 1 was perfection, its been pretty great since then but Season 4 was just good, hoping the new season is another great one.

Having watched the season finale of Lower Decks, it got worse. New Star Trek is written to fill clickbait "what you missed" articles, not be entertaining for viewers.

[Reply #41 on:]

Different strokes for different folks. If you find something entertaining, enjoy it.

[Reply #42 on:]

I actually enjoyed Lowe Decks a lot..

Since its a heavy satire it has the leverage to do corny stuff without being "offensive" (like some characters on suposedly serious shows, ajem Discovery.. ajem Piccard) are ..

and they did too a LOT of puns and punches at Star Trek but while at the same time keeping the spirit close ...unlike Discovery or Piccard .. Also unlike both shows whoever wrote LD seem to at least have deep knowledge of star trek lore as it did threw a lot of quite obscure references.. i found myself reaching for memory alpha quite often to check references

As a note Expanse season 4 is markedly different pace and setting .. but its exactly what Book 4 is (wich is what the season 4 is based on after season 3 finally catched up with book 3 finale) .. since i read Cibola Burn (4th book) i knew there was going to be a lot of complains about pace change if they portrayed it accuratelly and they did wich i gotta give them kudos to sticking to the book material adapted for TV instead of "going away" .
the fact that the 2 book writers are also writers and producers on the show does help too .. tought recently Ty Frank said on twitter that they rarelly if ever had to "steer the show back to the books" or "ask" for a change in writing.. meaning they are so far quite in tune with the other writers and producers..

the final book "Leviathan falls" will be released next year and Ty has said several times there will be no spin offs or sequels. so the TV show if it gets lucky enought to keep going will have the patch fully writen.. and not have to steer away with dissastrous consencuences (ajem GoT)

[Reply #43 on:]

I got around to finishing TOS and watched the first two movies. Season 3 was a real slog toward the end. I think it contains some of the only genuine bombs in the entire series. The Savage Curtain especially stands out. It's just The Arena with Abraham Lincoln for some reason.

The Motion Picture was OK. It felt more like good episode of Star Trek stretched out over two hours with an hour of filler. I looked it up on Wikipedia after I watched it and wasn't shocked to find out that that's exactly what it is. One thing that has aged well is the special effects. I thought the effects for going into warp speed  and the transporter were especially cool looking and I was kind of disappointed they didn't return in the second film. There wasn't a lot to the plot but even today this one was worth watching for the special effects alone. It's not that they're technically impressive today, but the artistic direction they take is quite cool. Really that's the story of the first movie, really cool artistic direction and aesthetics and special effects, but not much else of substance.

The Wrath of Khan is a masterpiece. I went in knowing vaguely that Spock dies somehow, because I'd absorbed it through years of pop culture references, and knowing Khan from a season one episode of TOS was the main villain. Spock, Bones and Kirk all seem like old friends in this one which was a welcome change from the first movie where they didn't even seem to like each other. Khan works really well as a villain whose tragic flaw is his obsession with getting revenge against Kirk. The story and dialogue were engaging and Kirk using his experience to outsmart Khan played well into the theme of getting old. I liked that they gave Kirk a son. Great movie. I'd put it up there with The Empire Strikes Back.

Is The Motion Picture even considered canon anymore? It ends with Kirk at the helm of the Enterprise and in The Wrath of Khan, he hasn't commanded the Enterprise in what seems like a long time. It also seems like they just discarded a bunch of stuff like the new uniforms. It comes off as though they just hit the reset button.

[Reply #44 on:]

The Motion Picture was never finished, actually. It was rushed beyond salvation to meet a holiday release date.

That's from a movie geek, former projectionist, sorta-trekkie friend.

[Reply #45 on:]

The Motion Picture was never finished, actually. It was rushed beyond salvation to meet a holiday release date.

That's from a movie geek, former projectionist, sorta-trekkie friend.

I could see that. It comes off almost as a proof of concept to show what a big budget Star Trek movie could potentially look like. Almost like a tech demo for a new game console.

[Reply #46 on:]

More thoughts:

The Search for Spock - I really enjoyed this one too. I thought Christopher Lloyd was great as Kruge. I enjoyed the Enterprise crew turning their back on the Federation for the first time in the history of the series, and the Enterprise getting blown up. I really don't understand why so many people dislike this one.

The Voyage Home- This one is well loved. I enjoyed it, but I kind of liked Search For Spock better and none of the movies I've watched up to this point have come close to the high water mark of the Wrath of Khan imho. I am going into all these pretty well blind and I had no idea they went back in time, so it was all a surprise to me. This was a nice change of pace and injected some much needed humor into the film series.

The Final Frontier- This was weird. It was bad, but it wasn't boring like The Motion Picture. It was more a movie that has no three act structure or significant conflict. I read some of the background and I am absolutely fascinated by this movie.  It's like it was envisioned as a series of sketches and set pieces as opposed to a complete three act movie script. The scene where they climb the elevator shaft is a perfect example. So they end up in the elevator shaft because it's the only way to get to the room to send a message to Starfleet. They are climbing a ladder, but Spock leaves, gets rocket boots from somewhere, then comes in from above. Where did he go? They're trying to get up. He came from above. He clearly didn't take the rocket boots up there. Why couldn't they have just taken whatever route Spock took? So realistically the only reason they're in the elevator shaft is to get Spock back in the rocket boots, because whoever was writing it had the rocket boot scene pictured in their head, and was trying to come up with a way to get to that. So this whole section of the movie only exists for the sake of the little rocket boot sketch. It has nothing to do with the overall plot, it doesn't drive anything forward, it's like its own little vignette and they came up with just enough connective tissue to try and link it to the rest of the movie. They could have simply went from the brig to the lounge where they try to conflict Star Fleet and it would have made no difference to the overall plot. It's fascinating. It's almost written like Monty Python's Meaning of Life.

[Reply #47 on:]

The Search for Spock - I really enjoyed this one too. I thought Christopher Lloyd was great as Kruge. I enjoyed the Enterprise crew turning their back on the Federation for the first time in the history of the series, and the Enterprise getting blown up. I really don't understand why so many people dislike this one.

My only real complaint is that they recast Lieutenant Saavik.  Other than that, I think it's a great film.

I like how the second, third, and fourth films are part of one continuous storyline, but each can still be watched on its own without the other two.

[Reply #48 on:]

The Search for Spock - I really enjoyed this one too. I thought Christopher Lloyd was great as Kruge. I enjoyed the Enterprise crew turning their back on the Federation for the first time in the history of the series, and the Enterprise getting blown up. I really don't understand why so many people dislike this one.

My only real complaint is that they recast Lieutenant Saavik.  Other than that, I think it's a great film.

I like how the second, third, and fourth films are part of one continuous storyline, but each can still be watched on its own without the other two.

Agreed.

I watched the Undiscovered country last night. I enjoyed it, but other than being a good sendoff to the TOS crew and a good allegory for the end of the Cold War, I don't have many thoughts on it. When I think of the Star Trek movies in the future I'm going to think of II, III & IV. Those are the three where is seems like they were really firing on all cylinders.

[Reply #49 on:]

Undiscovered Country took a long time to grow on me, but I'm at the point where I can enjoy nearly all of the ST movies.

Regarding the various series...it disappoints me to say that I'm honestly shocked by the awful writing in season 2 of Discovery, especially as I'd often heard that the S2 writing was considered substantially better than S1.

Belatedly I realized that some of the change was due to the deliberate effort to bring the episodes closer to classic Trek, but my impression is that the scripts have been oversimplified (from a science/technical point of view) and now have ELI5-style exposition wedged into the dialog in an effort to appeal to non-sci-fi audiences, as well as completely throwing off the balance of the Michael Burnham character by making her ridiculously uber-competent—till now, her mental and physical skills and talents have been countered by the overarching tragedy of her character, in that everything she touches turns to profound disaster in the most delicious star-crossed, monkey-paw tradition.

Which floats a thought to the surface of my mind: I don't understand the context of the continual references to her being responsible for starting the war: of course the tragic unintended consequences resulting in the martyr and unifying the Klingon houses is straightforward, but my parsing of all the "you started the war" comments seem to imply that the war was caused by her defiant actions on the bridge before the battle of the binary stars began. Is everyone criticizing her for NOT being successful in her defiance/mutiny? Or am I missing something really obvious?

One awesome "aspect" of S2 is the fact that it's shot with very wide-angle, cinematic lenses, which makes for a richer and more immersive visual experience. Can't wait until I can watch it upscaled to 1440p to fill my monitor completely from top to bottom. The sound work is also fantastic, and slips in some cool subsonics from time to time without getting all over-the-top with them.

So my short hiatus from Discovery is over, and I'm watching it with an altered attitude. I enjoy the characters a lot, and, like much of Trek, the actors really seem to be developing a family-like rapport among the whole crew. Re-watching the first S2 eps with commentary from Alex Kurtzman, Sonequa Martin-Green, and Jonathan Frakes shows how much excitement and enjoyment the cast was having, and definitely took a lot of the edge off my initial disappointment.

[Reply #50 on:]

I ended up tapping out for The Next Generation, it was too much of a slog. It wasn't poorly written or acted or anything like that, just a bit too dry for me. I ended up using a guide and watching these episodes. Right around the episodes in season four or five it started to grow on me, but it's still a bit serious for my taste. Favourite episode I watched was probably a tossup between Reunion, The Inner Light and Chain of Command. Basically anytime Stewart really got to show his acting chops. I might go back and watch some of the later seasons in full later. I will be frank though, life is too short to watch season one and two of The Next Generation. They are brutally dry and procedural.

[Reply #51 on:]

The Inner Light

That one's my favorite.

I will be frank though, life is too short to watch season one and two of The Next Generation. They are brutally dry and procedural.

Like I said before, it took the show a couple of seasons to find its footing.  I still think that there are a few gems scattered among the early season episodes that are worth watching though.

[Reply #52 on:]

I did like Conspiracy quite a bit.

[Reply #53 on:]

I liked that one, but it seemed like it was a set up for a later storyline that never got picked up, which is kind of a shame, really.

[Reply #54 on:]

"I would also recommend watching episodes of The Next Generation in remastered form on Blu-ray"

Wait...what? When the heck did this happen?

* * Tachy checks his ST collection * *

Ah, I was mixing up TNG and DS9—the latter is the series that was only available on DVD when I ordered.

Also, the other day I realized that I haven't watched Star Trek: Beyond since I saw in in the theatre with my brother the month after release. Perhaps I'll correct that oversight tonight or tomorrow

[Reply #55 on:]

I watched the last four movies. First Contact was far and away the best and I really enjoyed it. I'd put Generations next even though I think it would have been better without the original crew. The other two were pretty meh. I was very dissapointed in the TNG movies overall, though I would put First Contact right below II-IV. Here's how I'd rank the movies:

II
III
IV
VIII
VI
I
VII
IX
X
V

The first one is weird. It's by far the most boring movie in terms of action, but I also like its production design and costuming and effects the best.

[Reply #56 on:]

I'm pretty sure that Generations and First Contact are the only TNG movies that I bothered to watch.  At least, they're the only ones that I remember having seen.

Generations isn't a bad film, if, for some reason, you didn't get enough closure from watching The Undiscovered Country and really need to know the final fate of Captain Kirk.

I didn't like First Contact, for a number of reasons.  The movie plays fast and loose with the established lore regarding Zefram Cochrane,  although I suppose that's not really a big deal.

The bigger problem is the Borg.  I preferred how the Borg were dealt with in the series (and as far as I'm concerned, they were dealt with conclusively).  Bringing them back in a movie (and also in Voyager) just seems like lazy writing that disrespects what came before.

The introduction of a Borg queen completely contradicts everything about what the Borg are.  I'm guessing that someone must have used the word "hivemind" to describe the Borg, and someone else must have decided that if they're like a beehive, then there must be a queen.  Well, no; that's not what a hivemind is, not at all.

Also, if I want to see Patrick Stewart as Captain Ahab, they have a version of Moby Dick for that.

[Reply #57 on:]

They 100% dumbed down TNG for a mass audience in First Contact. I can see finding it distasteful if you were really into the show. I just enjoyed it for what is was, a solid, dumb sci-fi action movie.

[Reply #58 on:]

As a dumb sci-fi action movie it works, but as a Star Trek movie it was just disappointing, especially when compared to the first six.

[Reply #59 on:]

I actually enjoyed Lower Decks a lot...

Me too; watched it recently and found every episode to be amusing. I often chuckled and occasionally burst out into proper laughter

[Reply #60 on:]

when i think about first contact, the first thing that comes to mind is its revelation of the borg's biggest weakness: tricking them into going to the holodeck two at a time.

incidentally, i think this is my first time posting here in like a decade. man, i got old.

[Reply #61 on:]

I ended up watching Piccard. After watching TOS, and a big chunk of TNG and the ten original movies and then Piccard all for the first time within the span of a year, man Piccard was just a complete flaming pile of shit. It made me think the TNG movies maybe weren't so bad.

"Here, take this magic rock that can do anything."

It kind of flies in the face of the the hundred odd episodes and ten movies I watched over the last year, but cool, I guess.

[Reply #62 on:]

I watched S1 of Picard over the course of a few weeks, shortly after binging Discovery S1 and S2. I liked them both, a lot, despite some elements I had to take simply because it's space opera. Different storytelling can appeal to different people.

e.g., Star Trek: The Motion Picture (which was never technically finished for release) blows chunks of dolphin vomit as far as I'm concerned. Some people liked it. Other than Undiscovered Country and Nemesis I've enjoyed the rest of the movies a lot, and I don't even dislike those two. The Dominion War arc in DS9 mostly bores me and I still enjoy a lot of episodes. Luckily there's plenty of Trek material for most everyone

[Reply #63 on:]

Oh yeah, it's totally subjective. One man's flaming pile of shit is another man's treasure.

It doesn't help that I strongly dislike heavily serialized television, which was one of the appeals of Star Trek when I started watching last year in the first place.

[Reply #64 on:]

Unfortunately, I think that you've probably already seen all the Trek that's worth watching at this point, unless you want to track down the animated series.

[Reply #65 on:]

Memory Alpha (which includes the movies in their count) now counts over 800 star trek "episodes", for me its diminishing returns at the moment, but I will always hope for former glories to be found.

[Reply #66 on:]

Unfortunately, I think that you've probably already seen all the Trek that's worth watching at this point, unless you want to track down the animated series.

Well, it was fun while it lasted. I have thrown on a couple of episodes of the animated series. I've been enjoying those.

I watched the Orville recently as well. That was good shit. Hopefully that gets a couple more seasons.

[Reply #67 on:]

Have you seen the movie Galaxy Quest?  If not, you might want to give that a watch.  Even if you have seen it before, watching it again with your newfound knowledge of Star Trek might give you more appreciation for some of the humor.

[Reply #68 on:]

Galaxy Quest is one of my favorite movies, and the cast plays it just straight enough to draw you in. And of course I have no idea whether they enjoyed making the film or were exasperated out of their minds, but they looked like they were having fun and it really is a great film, with a lot of heart.

RIP Alan Rickman I've seen less than 15 minutes in total watching the Harry Potter movies, and have zero desire to watch any of them in their entirety. But I suspect I might enjoy Alan Rickman's character. Maybe someday...

* edit  *

And I unashamedly admit that I loved the fun fanservice with Sigourney Weaver's character, along with her brilliantly sardonic running commentary concerning the sets / plot

[Reply #69 on:]

Oh don't you worry. Galaxy Quest has been in my regular rotation for years. I did watch it again about a month ago with a new appreciation for it.

[Reply #70 on:]

Galaxy Quest should be mandatory view for any sci-fi/space opera fan.. specially Star Trek but even those not fond with ST (ie me) will get and love GQ

[Reply #71 on:]

This is probably going to get a few of you riled up:
Chakotay is back
(Spoilers if you haven't seen Voyager.)

[Reply #72 on:]

For whatever reason the thought of watching the video is not appealing. From a different source: '"I don't know if I'm supposed to say this or not yet," Beltran said. "I'm working on this voiceover/animation thing that Kate [Mulgrew] is doing, Star Trek: Prodigy."'

Hmmm. It could be a false memory from a fever dream during some alien encounter, but I apparently recall reading that the script consultant Paramount hired to incorporate native American spiritual themes into Beltran's character in ST-VOY was a complete bullshitting fraud, and basically made it all up.

[Reply #73 on:]

Hmmm. It could be a false memory from a fever dream during some alien encounter, but I apparently recall reading that the script consultant Paramount hired to incorporate native American spiritual themes into Beltran's character in ST-VOY was a complete bullshitting fraud, and basically made it all up.

That's what I heard too. I guess the lesson is that they tried to do the right thing, but didn't put enough effort into doing the right thing the right way..

[Reply #74 on:]

When they found out, they should have just run with it and have had the character find out that whoever taught him about his heritage in-universe was a complete fraud who basically made it all up.

[Reply #75 on:]

I still have a couple of eps left in season 1 but unless the show derails badly i have to say im enjoying actually Strange New Worlds.

Really.. is not sci-fi of the decade but it feels a lot like a modern version of TOS/TNG.. probably has some errors with regards to TOS ..but it surprised me with so far several plot twists wich i first tought was a bit contrived and "unnecesary" but it turned out to be outright calls to books or TOS ..so good for them for at least making an effort of keeping consistency and canon despite the vastly different visual style of the Enterprise interior (wich at this point i think its inevitable.. TOS wasnt made with a lot of budget for the interiors and it was done in a time where that was it.. unlike Star Wars wich made interiors that can work today without looking "low budget" as proven by the sequels and new series...

So despite my "unfriendlyness" to Alex Kurtzman who many blame (probably right) for the disasters Picard and Discovery where.. he also produced Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds.. so for fairness kudos on that.

[Reply #76 on:]

Ironically, my main problem with modern Star Trek (or maybe my second main problem, one of the two main ones!) is that it's too much about Star Trek.  They keep referencing TOS and TNG in obnoxious ways.  It's like it's written by someone with a complete knowledge of everything Star Trek, but has no understanding of it.

When TNG launched, it was very focused on avoiding constant references to TOS.  Yes, in the first season, there are some obvious references, including episodes that are basically just rehashing of TNG episodes.  But when the show became its own, that's where it shun.  The whole double episode with Spock works largely because Spock is so efficiently used.  The fan service is really used sparingly in that episode.

TNG spawned DS9 and VOY, both obviously in a similar era, but being their own shows in their own right.  Basically, the less time Star Trek shows spend talking about other Star Trek shows the better.  It also speaks to the boldness of the creators.  While ENT is a bit of a let down, at least it tried a completely new era.

But all this modern Star Trek is just about revisiting old Star Trek.  I don't care about Pike, TOS did plenty with enough with him.  I don't care about what Picard did with his retirement.  I've seen "All Good Things", let that be that (yes, I am ignoring the TNG movies).

Star Trek is both a place and a story.  TNG proved that you can do Star Trek without heavy reliance on the franchise's past.  Maybe do another attempt before the Federation like ENT?  Or do another generation?  Hell, separate shows but in the same era works fine.  I mean DS9 and VOY works.

In fact, that's why I had hopes for Discovery.  Something disconnected from TOS, but set in the same era, I could get down with that.  But we all know how it turned out.  So yeah, I'll pass on Strange New Worlds as well; too much fan service.

[Reply #77 on:]

Enterprise was somewhat hamstrung from the beginning, and by season 4, with a new network that had zero clues about Trek, it just couldn't continue. The show setting was supposed to start out on Earth and not actually launch the NX-01 until several episodes in. From memory, near the end, they were having to fend off ludicrous things like having a club on the ship with guest appearances by bands playing Justin Bieber covers or something, to supposedly keep the young, hip viewers engaged. The "Forge" arc around late S3/early S4 is some of my favorite Trek; the melodrama is played so earnestly, with just the right touch of schlock

Discovery was tons of fun—at first. I was even able to let go of the, idk, microcosm/macrocosm silliness and just enjoy the characters and the show. The dumbing-down of the dialog for season 2 was disappointing but not unexpected. By the time I was a few episodes into season 3 it wad wandered so far off the track that I couldn't even bring myself to finish the season. Perhaps I'll revisit it someday. I did enjoy the Pike tie-in.

[Reply #78 on:]

Star Trek Picard: Season 3

It is, for me at least, the true ending to the TNG series - 7 seasons, 4 movies, and 1 epilogue.

Having so many from the TNG cast, including the whole bridge crew, is very nice to see. The main villain was excellent, on par with the best Trek villans. Basically all of the secondary cast members were well cast.

The Titan's captain overplays the jerk angle in an attempt at unearned conflict for the first half of the season, but is still a basically likeable character by the end. The others - Sidney LaForge, Jack Crusher, and the bridge crew in general, were all basically good in their roles.

Some of the minor bridge characters, with no or a few lines, still stood out and added materially to the atmosphere of the show.

The writing is well done. The ultimate plans that are the centre of the plot are belivable, to the standards set by TNG. There are nicely timed returns to places visited, and several neat turns of phrase. It's clear that the writers cared about the story, both within the season arc and within the larger Star Trek universe.

The promise that the final episode will have a dramatic display of a huge number of ships is given at the beginning of the season. That's classic and effective catnip for trekkies. There is a taste of what the gathering of ships will look like earlier on in the show, and that moment - what is shown, and the dialog - stood out most clearly to me as a belivable represenatation of The Next Next Generation - the generation after TNG, in the TNG universe. It was very well done.

A well-managed change in tone happens from the first to the last episode, I believe. It starts in a style I take to be representative of the style in the first and second seasons of Picard. But, as more and more characters from the TNG bridge crew are re-introduced, the tone changes. More of the dialogue is between them, and the tone of the show returns to a tone similar to what TNG had. There is less bickering, and more scenes that are basically polite. There are also more scenes of fruitful and considerate problem solving, a core part of what made TNG good.

It would be unfair to write off the event at the end of episode 9 as simply fan service; it was long overdue, and is in keeping with the basic project of giving all characters a good send-off.

The penultimate scene was filmed in a particular way I hadn't seen before, and had good interprative potential. The ultimate scene.. well, always leave them wanting more.

Other nice touches include the design of the USS Titan, which is a better evolution of the 1701-D design than the 1701-E ever was. The early use of a song, recognizable to anyone who has played Fallout 3, made for a very atmospheric moment. The Okudagrams were well done. The intro/outro was still pleasant to see after 10 episodes.

It wasn't all good. There was far too much physical violence and social conflict. The fights against enemies are overly brutal - even in the later episodes of the season. Thankfully the bickering tones down a bit as the series goes on.

Technically it's not great but the problems aren't anywhere near the point where they make the show unwatchable. However, the ships were somehow better lit from the outside rather than the inside. In other words, technical problems are dominated by the simple fact that most of the scenes are *too dark*. Turn up the lights!

A secondary problem is the overuse of sound / scary orchestras for ships in space. I know the 'but there is no sound in space' argument is well (and correctly) lost, but it does still rear its head when that artistic license is abused.

I'm not unaware of the irony that the enemy of the next generation crew is the new generation.

Overall, I am very happy that this was made. TNG was, I think, the foundation for a decade or more of Trek - DS9, Voyager, Enterprise. Yet, until now, its final act was a movie which was not its best moment. That has changed, and the final act of TNG is now one of its great moments.

One Futurama link: I couldn't stop thinking about Calculon when a certain android first wakes up

[Reply #79 on:]

I've been watching a lot of early TNG episodes lately.  The first two seasons almost seem like a different show from the later seasons.  A lot of the episodes attempt to ape the style of TOS, to varying degrees of success.  There are a lot of Wesley heavy episodes as well.

I very much prefer the later seasons, but I stand by what I've said before: there are a few gems scattered throughout the first two seasons that are still worth watching.