New shadow in Jurassic Bark

[on:]

Jurassic Bark is one of those episodes that contain the bit from the pilot where Fry gets frozen, I just watched it and happened to see the shadows on the floor, which looks like Nibbler and Fry under the desk. It's pretty cool that they did that, but Fry wasn't there in the pilot!  It's kind of odd that they knew Nibbler would be responsible for the freezing of Fry, but later thought of adding Fry as well. Here's a screengrab from S01E01 and S05E02 respectively  Anyone noticed it?

[Reply #1 on:]

Ah yes, a classic little quirk.

Fry was there because in a later episode (The Why of Fry) he goes back in time to stop Nibbler from pushing him in the freezer tube. But in the end he ends up deciding against it and pushes himself in. Yeah weird i know.

EDIT: By the Way, welcome to PEEL moon president! Enjoy your stay and please try to obey the rules  .

[Reply #2 on:]

Now it's time for my initiation.

Way to start a thread about something everyone already knew about you wanker.

[Reply #3 on:]

Thanks 

So this was two different episodes? They must've planned way ahead for the for Nibbler, or they added it for the DVD's, which seems a little over the top  Is it known in which order these things were thought of?

[Reply #4 on:]

 

Originally posted by TheLampIncident:
Now it's time for my initiation.

Way to start a thread about something everyone already knew about you wanker.

wank wank

[Reply #5 on:]

 

Originally posted by MoonPresident:
Thanks   

So this was two different episodes? They must've planned way ahead for the for Nibbler, or they added it for the DVD's, which seems a little over the top    Is it known in which order these things were thought of?

Well they did have Nibbler's shadow in the Pilot episode so Groening could have had some vague idea of what he was planning for later in the series.

And PS: Nice way to welcome the newcommer Lamp.

[Reply #6 on:]

 

Originally posted by MoonPresident:
Thanks   

So this was two different episodes? They must've planned way ahead for the for Nibbler, or they added it for the DVD's, which seems a little over the top    Is it known in which order these things were thought of?

Sure it is known    There are some threads about it, just use the search funcion on top-right of every page and search for them.
An easier way to solve that problem is to check aslates website, especially this one Fry, Freezing and the Future.

Please don't do double posts, because most Peeler's try to kee their board clean of spam. If you need to add something to your post use the edit-button. 

If you want to know more about some guidelines and get some tips around UBB-codes you might also want to check out the Peeler's FAQ.

The most important thing: Enjoy your stay here at nerd-world   

PS: Well thats just Lamp's normal behaviour, we love him that way.

[Reply #7 on:]

 

Originally posted by Nasty Pasty:
 Well they did have Nibbler's shadow in the Pilot episode so Groening could have had some vague idea of what he was planning for later in the series.

Not just vague ideas, they had the entire Nibbler/Fry/Future arch planned out before even starting production. Same thing with Leela's mutant heritage.

Oh, yeah, welcome to PEEL MoonPresident.

--------------
Member of the PEEL Old Guard - Crushing hopes since 2002.

[Reply #8 on:]

It's obvious that Nibbler freezing Fry was planned from the very beginning, which is why his shadow is seen in the pilot.  However, Fry freezing himself must have been thought of later, because his shadow doesn't appear until much later in the series.  Or maybe they just didn't want to give away too many hints in the pilot and Fry's shadow was added in "Jurassic Bark" as a little reward for those who saw Nibbler's shadow in the pilot and were still paying attention.

Of course, after seeing those two screengrabs together, I now want to know what caused the chair to change color.

[Reply #9 on:]

Oops, sorry for the double post  Thanks for the answers tho, good to know that I'm not nearly the geekiest geek around here, but I'm getting there 
I was also wondering about the colour of the chair by the way, one should do a complete overview of all freeze-bits throughout the series to compare all the quirks and what not.

[Reply #10 on:]

The pilot doesn't have Fry's shadow because he hasn't gone back in time yet.  He may have gone back in time, but technically the timeline he's on in the pilot, doesn't have him going back in time because of the brains and he creates a completely new timeline when he does go back in time.  By the time Jurassic Bark does come out, the new timeline is recognized and Fry goes back in time in the Why of Fry, which is why we see him in Jurassic Bark for having gone back in time.

[Reply #11 on:]

 

Originally posted by David A:
However, Fry freezing himself must have been thought of later, because his shadow doesn't appear until much later in the series.  Or maybe they just didn't want to give away too many hints in the pilot and Fry's shadow was added in "Jurassic Bark" as a little reward for those who saw Nibbler's shadow in the pilot and were still paying attention.

The thing with Fry freezing himself was definitely thought of later because in the commentaries they say that originally there wasn't supposed to be time-travel in the show and that the idea of Nibbler pushing him was something that could easily have been explained without needing to go back in time.

[Reply #12 on:]

 

Originally posted by David A:
It's obvious that Nibbler freezing Fry was planned from the very beginning, which is why his shadow is seen in the pilot.  However, Fry freezing himself must have been thought of later, because his shadow doesn't appear until much later in the series.  Or maybe they just didn't want to give away too many hints in the pilot and Fry's shadow was added in "Jurassic Bark" as a little reward for those who saw Nibbler's shadow in the pilot and were still paying attention.

I agree with Winna.  When Fry went back in time in TWoF, he "overwrote" the previous Dec. 31, 1999.  Therefore, it makes sense that he wasn't always there in the shadows, because he hadn't gone back in time yet.  What we see is the "original" Dec. 31, 1999.

This can also explain Fry being his own grandfather.  Originally, Enos did impregnate Mildred, which gave birth to Yancy Sr., which gave birth to Fry.  In RTEW, Fry once again "re-wrote" history. But Fry's killing of Enos broke that chain, and the timeline "snapped back" into place, substituting Fry for Enos as Yancy's father.

 

Of course, after seeing those two screengrabs together, I now want to know what caused the chair to change color.

When Fry went back in time, it set off a chain of unexpected events that somehow caused the chair to change color.  It's really a fascinating story, and I'm sure the writers would have gotten to it had the show not been cancelled.

[Reply #13 on:]

I didn't want to mess with time travel today, but I'll take a shot at this.

First, evan, I don't think Fry changed history when he became his own grandfather; if he had, he wouldn't have been the same person afterwards.  By changing his grandfather, he would have changed 1/4 of his DNA and would no longer be Philip J. Fry.  For a full explanation of this and an explanation of TWOF, I'd go with The ever humble TNUK's Theory.  This explains both flavors of time travel adequately without messing with alternate Universes or paralell timelines (which I despise as a plot device, by the way.)

Explaining the shadow is trickier...obviously Fry Prime (the one under the desk) effected the timeline on 12/31/1999 without technically existing.  Apparently, that influence extends to blocking photons.  Basically, SP3K was drawn based on the unaltered timeline (bear in mind, I say the timeline was "altered," not "replaced by a new timeline." )  JB was drawn to take the alterations into account.

Or, we could just say that Fry's shadow's absence in SP3K was simply an error on the part of the animators, since Fry obviously did come back in time.

Oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed.

[Reply #14 on:]

 

Originally posted by Prof. Wernstrum:
 The thing with Fry freezing himself was definitely thought of later because in the commentaries they say that originally there wasn't supposed to be time-travel in the show and that the idea of Nibbler pushing him was something that could easily have been explained without needing to go back in time.

No time travel at all?  What about "Roswell That Ends Well"?  Wasn't it planned from the beginning for Fry to be his own grandfather?  Why else would Nibbler want freeze him?

 

Originally posted by evan:
This can also explain Fry being his own grandfather.  Originally, Enos did impregnate Mildred, which gave birth to Yancy Sr., which gave birth to Fry.  In RTEW, Fry once again "re-wrote" history. But Fry's killing of Enos broke that chain, and the timeline "snapped back" into place, substituting Fry for Enos as Yancy's father.

No, Fry was always his own grandfather.  He was immune to the brain spawn even before he went back in time.

 

When Fry went back in time, it set off a chain of unexpected events that somehow caused the chair to change color. It's really a fascinating story, and I'm sure the writers would have gotten to it had the show not been cancelled.

And now we'll never know!  Damn you, Fox!  Damn you to hell!

[Reply #15 on:]

The way I look at time travel is one single linear continous timeline where people pop out of nowhere and disapear into nowhere, what it feels like to the people in question is just a matter of individual interpretation. So the timeline is this: Way back, a dude with red hair popped upp out of nowhere and killed a guy with a nuke then screws his girl, then disapear again. Two generations down the line a guy with red hair is born, 20 or so years later that guy gets frozen, another 1000 or so years later he disapears in a supernovi-accident. End of story.
If this story seems irrational, it's just because humans aren't quite capable of grasping the concept of time travel, probably.
So there you are, no alternate universes or what-if's. 

[Reply #16 on:]

I agree with you, MoonPresident.  The time travel in "Roswell That Ends Well" makes sense.  It's "The Why of Fry" that screws things up, because Fry changed history (the Scooty Puff Sr., if nothing else).

Oh, and the simplest explanation for the shadows is this: Nibblers shadow in the pilot is seen a split second before Fry appeared; the shadows in "Jurassic Bark" are seen a split second later.

That still doesn't explain the color of the chair, though.   

[Reply #17 on:]

Time Travel was not meant to be in the series at all, when David X. and Matt Groening first thought up the show.  It's true that Fry is his own grandpa and that he could defeat the brainspawn, but they really wrote that part of the storyline afterwards, they did not intend for it to happen from the beginning. David A. read your constitution watch your DVD commentaries!
 
Especially Roswell That Ends Well because that's the one they talk specifically about not wanting to do time travel

[Reply #18 on:]

Hey, if I had the DVDs, I'd watch the commentaries.

So, if Fry wasn't originally meant to go back in time, what was the original reason for Nibbler freezing him?  Did he just lack the delta brainwave "for no raisin", or were the brainspawn not part of the original story either?

[Reply #19 on:]

The specific details of Fry's destiny were probably made up as the show went along. The writers had obviously decided that he was sent into the future for some grand purpose and had presumably decided on the idea of a Nibblonian civilisation, but the precise explanations for why/ how/ from what he could save the universe were most likely thought up later.

[Reply #20 on:]

Sounds reasonable.

[Reply #21 on:]

It was wizards, always the wizards.

[Reply #22 on:]

 

Originally posted by David A
Oh, and the simplest explanation for the shadows is this: Nibblers shadow in the pilot is seen a split second before Fry appeared; the shadows in "Jurassic Bark" are seen a split second later.

As neatly as this would explain it, both shots are during the second or two in which Fry is falling (12:00:00am-12:00:05am 1/1/2000 or so.)  Fry appears under the desk a minute or two before this to have his conversation with Nibbler.

The thing that really screws up any attempts at explanations here are that time travel (backward time travel I mean, not fast-forwarding in the traditional direction) occurs twice in the series, in two differet ways: travel through a wormhole, which results in no changes to the timeline, but was meant to happen; and travel to a spot outside the space-time continuum and then back in at a "nexus point," which does alter history, just enough for Fry to save himself from the QI bomb and therefore not go back in the first place.

I'm tired of analyzing this.  And I have to get my ass to econ in the nest 5 minutes.  I just think the writers half-assed the time-travel explanation, and we ended up with something that made no sense.  Like Star Trek.  Hey, maybe it was an intentional nod to the fact that ST writers can never keep themselves consistent either.

[Reply #23 on:]

 

Originally posted by Nerd-o-rama:
As neatly as this would explain it, both shots are during the second or two in which Fry is falling (12:00:00am-12:00:05am 1/1/2000 or so.)  Fry appears under the desk a minute or two before this to have his conversation with Nibbler.

Ah, well.  At least I tried.  I guess I'll have to go back to my original "the writers thought of Nibbler pushing Fry into the chamber from the very beginning, but didn't think of Fry going back in time until later" theory.

Incedentally, don't you think it's strange how time sort of seems to stop while Fry is talking to Nibbler under the desk?  I mean how long were they talking under there?  I don't think that Fry spent that long sitting in the chair the first two* times we saw this scene.

 

The thing that really screws up any attempts at explanations here are that time travel (backward time travel I mean, not fast-forwarding in the traditional direction) occurs twice in the series, in two differet ways: travel through a wormhole, which results in no changes to the timeline, but was meant to happen; and travel to a spot outside the space-time continuum and then back in at a "nexus point," which does alter history, just enough for Fry to save himself from the QI bomb and therefore not go back in the first place.

Yeah, "The Why of Fry" really dropped the ball when it came to time travel.  I thought that "Roswell That Ends Well" handled the concept really well; better than how most serious sci-fi shows** handle it.  When Fry was sent back in time again, in "The Why of Fry", I was really hoping that the situation would be resolved in some way that left the space-time continuum intact.  No such luck.  It was disappointing, because it was an otherwise great episode.

* Three times, if you count "Anthology of Interest".

** Still not better than the way Babylon 5 handled time travel, though.

[Reply #24 on:]

Here's what I would have done to put Fry back in the future:

 

Fry: Wait, now I'm just going to get stuck in the sphere again! (Approximate Line)
Nibbler: Don't worry, I had a backup plan in case I couldn't get you in here tonight.  There's another vacant tube in the next room.  Tomorrow, I was going to find your house, club you with a whiffle-bat and shove you in there.
Fry: Wow, you think of everything.

Cut to: another similar room, tubes numbered 50+, tube #50 standing open.

Nibbler: Here we go, you can just get in the tube and I'll set it to open on the night of our mission.
Fry: Well, I guess this is it.  It'll be good to be back in the future with my friends.  Although my family will still be here.  But I have family in the future, too.  But my family here will miss me and they'll all be de-

Nibbler, with an exasperated look on his face, jumps straight up, kicks Fry in the head and sends him yumbling into the freezer.  The door closes and sets to 1000 years.

Fry: Thanks a lot! *Freezes*
Nibbler: *twists the timer to 1003.5 years* Godspeed! (Muttered) Moron.

And it basically goes from there back to the rooftop where Fry and Nibbler left for Planet Eternium, and progresses as normal.

[Reply #25 on:]

That would make more sense.

And yeah, Nibbler and Fry do take a lot more time under the desk than the first time Fry falls in the freezer, but they exaggerate this point too:  As Fry is sitting in the chair leaning he almost falls over once and Fry (the one from the future) grabs his chair and puts it in balance.

I'm still sticking with that Fry has made a new timeline, and that the alterations of the timeline happen shortly before the time travel itself happens.  Examples for this are that The Day the Earth Stood Stupid happens before Roswell That Ends Well, and Jurrasic Bark occurs shortly before The Why of Fry.  Now, you might just say, "But Nick, what about how Nibbler was there in the first place?  If Fry didn't have the Delta brainwave to begin with, why should the Nibblonians care?"  And I answer you: The Nibblonians were given a prophecy that Fry was a "Chosen One" and this prophecy outlies the entire timeline itself, since there are things out there far more powerful than time.  In concluding it may have been the Nibblonians own self fulfilled prophecy that caused the whole time travel in the first place and thus saved the universe.

[Reply #26 on:]

@ Nerd-o-rama: Yeah, something along those lines would have been good.

 

Originally posted by winna:
And yeah, Nibbler and Fry do take a lot more time under the desk than the first time Fry falls in the freezer, but they exaggerate this point too:  As Fry is sitting in the chair leaning he almost falls over once and Fry (the one from the future) grabs his chair and puts it in balance.

And you'd think that this would delay his falling into the tube, but he still falls in right after midnight.

[Reply #27 on:]

To the whole "Fry and Nibbler's conversation is too long thing" can be explained by the fact that we're not watching Fry the entire time he's in the office-freezer thingy.  Between camera cuts, a minute or two passes.  I know this probably doesn't line up exactly, but it's close enough.

And Fry doesn't hear himself because he's wallowing in his own worthlessness.