Thoughts on 2ACV19 - The Cryonic Woman

[Reply #40 on:]

Boy, is Soryn paranoid. YES, futurefreak would really go against you for disagreeing with tnuk. It's not like anyone else has ever disagreed with tnuk about anything.

"Paranoid?"

I only took the precaution to backup my posts because the mods have censored and deleted my posts in the past. Strangely, the mods didn't delete totalnerkuk's criticism of my post, thereby giving him the last word.

Then there's this:

Perhaps you'd like to take this to PM if you want to continue, rather than cluttering up this thread and creating extra work for PEEL's hardworking staff.

totalnerduk flagrantly sucks up to the mods, and implies that they will censor or delete my posts -- and implying that they have his back.

The mods deleted my reply to that wherein I wrote something to the effect of: "Yeah, because how would you win this argument if the mods didn't censor anyone who disagreed with you?"

The reason why I re-posted that deleted post was because I presented proof of how totalnerduk and other like-minded posters have viciously attacked anyone who doesn't agree with them that "The Cryonic Woman" is the worst episode of Futurama. And they've used that to try to criticize and dismiss their opinions about everything else. That is WRONG! That's why the post I preserved and re-posted is important.

Also, winna's juvenile and offensive post really hammers home how intolerant people like him and totalnerduk are about anyone who doesn't hate "The Cryonic Woman".

[Reply #41 on:]

Obviously they have every right to move or delete posts that are nothing but personal attacks. This is a Futurama forum, where we discuss Futurama. It's not about whether or not you agree with tnuk, and you know that perfectly well. Stick to the topic or don't post.

Also...

Didn’t you watch The Cryonic Woman? What was so much better about the ending to that episode? I would really like to know. It’s fair to say that Ghost In The Machines had one of the poorer endings of the show, but it is by no means the worst...

What fracking part of that post was ridiculing and squashing you?

[Reply #42 on:]

Obviously they have every right to move or delete posts that are nothing but personal attacks. This is a Futurama forum, where we discuss Futurama. It's not about whether or not you agree with tnuk, and you know that perfectly well. Stick to the topic or don't post.

Well since it was deleted and I didn't back up that particular post, there's no way for me to prove that it wasn't "nothing but personal attacks", which it wasn't. It was a post wherein I multi-quoted totalnerkuk's post and skillfully scrutinized his statements and criticisms to prove my point -- just like I did with his criticism of the ending "The Cryonic Woman".

Whereas the mods let him get away with blatantly insulting me.

You may accuse me of being "paranoid", but IME there's undeniable proof that the mods have selectively censored certain posters, and ignored the blatant violations of others.

[Reply #43 on:]

Well since it was deleted and I didn't back up that particular post, there's no way for me to prove that it wasn't "nothing but personal attacks", which it wasn't. It was a post wherein I multi-quoted totalnerkuk's post and skillfully scrutinized his statements and criticisms to prove my point -- just like I did with his criticism of the ending "The Cryonic Woman".

The mods deleted my reply to that wherein I wrote something to the effect of: "Yeah, because how would you win this argument if the mods didn't censor anyone who disagreed with you?"

I'm sorry, I must have misread your first description of the post.

[Reply #44 on:]

Didn’t you watch The Cryonic Woman? What was so much better about the ending to that episode? I would really like to know. It’s fair to say that Ghost In The Machines had one of the poorer endings of the show, but it is by no means the worst...

What fracking part of that post was ridiculing and squashing you?

I acknowledge it wasn't the worst example of what I was talking about, but in context it was a criticism along the lines "You're wrong that "Ghosts in the Machine" had the worst ending, because in my opinion "The Cryonic Woman"'s ending was the worst."

That was exactly what I was talking about here:

Do you know how often I've had my opinions scoffed at because someone basically said "But you liked The Cryonic Woman, therefore you're wrong." (I've provided examples below)

And give me an example of where somebody has been squashed and ridiculed because they felt any part of The Cryonic Woman was good.

... I seem to remember whoever was stating this was being a complete dick as well. I can't be bothered to re-read the whole thread again and find out who. But I have a feeling it's the guy who's been posting immensely long and pontificating rants about how much he hates certain episodes and feels that The Cryonic Woman was better.

Which is just indefensible.

That is why Rebirth doesn't deserve to be called crap when you're defending Cryonic Woman, and why Cryonic Woman is practically impossible to defend IMO.

Admittedly, those posts by totalnerduk are much better examples of the intolerance and prejudice I've been talking about here.

[Edit]

Well since it was deleted and I didn't back up that particular post, there's no way for me to prove that it wasn't "nothing but personal attacks", which it wasn't. It was a post wherein I multi-quoted totalnerkuk's post and skillfully scrutinized his statements and criticisms to prove my point -- just like I did with his criticism of the ending "The Cryonic Woman".

The mods deleted my reply to that wherein I wrote something to the effect of: "Yeah, because how would you win this argument if the mods didn't censor anyone who disagreed with you?"

I'm sorry, I must have misread your first description of the post.

That wasn't the only thing that I wrote in that reply. It was merely one of my responses to one of statements and criticisms that totalnerkuk posted. I acknowledge that out of context it might appear to be a petty jab, but when considered in context it was apropos -- and tragically predicted the censorship I've spoken of.

[Reply #45 on:]

Boy, is Soryn paranoid. YES, futurefreak would really go against you for disagreeing with tnuk. It's not like anyone else has ever disagreed with tnuk about anything.

several posts have been deleted. all of which disagree with the 'consensus' opinion on 'the cryonic woman'. paranoid? rightfully so, wouldn't you think?

[Reply #46 on:]

the more time i spend on this site, the more aggravated i get. why? well, there seems to be a tightly formed 'clique' of folks that want to keep their opinions of the show as the canon opinion.

when folks like soryn and myself come along, we appear to be a threat to them. because we don't just fall in line with their opinions and posting styles, they edit and delete posts(several of which were mine) to change perception.

if you can't handle the heat, then get off the internet.

[Reply #47 on:]

the more time i spend on this site, the more aggravated i get.

Then leave. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.

And quit Double Posting.

[Reply #48 on:]

the more time i spend on this site, the more aggravated i get. why? well, there seems to be a tightly formed 'clique' of folks that want to keep their opinions of the show as the canon opinion.

when folks like soryn and myself come along, we appear to be a threat to them. because we don't just fall in line with their opinions and posting styles, they edit and delete posts(several of which were mine) to change perception.

I'm on your side regarding opinions, but not posting styles. I've seen forums ban people before for outright refusing to write properly (not in txt spk) or you know, use capital letters (which is what I assume you're referring to). A forum has a right to set an etiquette.
Things like not double posting and capitalising.... well, it's all very reasonable in my eyes. But yeah, don't bring that argument in here and stick it onto another discussion because the two aren't relevant to each other.

[Reply #49 on:]

the more time i spend on this site, the more aggravated i get.

Then leave. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.

That is such a stereotypically intolerant "If you don't like it, you can get out!" attitude, which is ironically contradicted by the next sentence, "Everybody's entitled to an opinion."

What's next, DannyJC13? Are you going to shout, "Day tik dir jabs!"

[Reply #50 on:]

That is such a stereotypically intolerant "If you don't like it, you can get out!" attitude, which is ironically contradicted by the next sentence, "Everybody's entitled to an opinion."
What's next, DannyJC13? Are you going to shout, "Day tik dir jabs!"

If he doesn't like how we act around here, he can leave.

[Reply #51 on:]

If he doesn't like how we act around here, he can leave.

"Dey turk errr jerrrbs!!!"

[Reply #52 on:]

No comment.

[Reply #53 on:]

About your deleted posts, I don't think I should say more. If a moderator deleted your posts for your opinion and not for anything else, that is awful. I never meant to imply that that is defendable.

I acknowledge it wasn't the worst example of what I was talking about, but in context it was a criticism along the lines "You're wrong that "Ghosts in the Machine" had the worst ending, because in my opinion "The Cryonic Woman"'s ending was the worst."

I think you completely misunderstand every criticism you ever get. That someone thinks your opinion about "The Cryonic Woman" is wrong, does not mean that you are not allowed to have it, or that that person disgusts you. I think tnuk's opinion about the "cyclical" universe of "The Late Philip J. Fry" is wrong, I still think he's a good guy.

Was the quote you did meant as a paraphrasing of people ridiculing and squashing you?

[Reply #54 on:]

Flesheatingbull and SorynArkayn:

The reason some of your posts (along with others like Otis P Jivefunk, for example) were edited or deleted was because they were Offtopic. You were arguing against the person, not the episode. Totalnerduk has been following the rules, if you notice his posts actually still talk about the episode you guys were debating. Saying, "You're being hypocritical" a bunch of times does not an  Ontopic post make. If you stayed on discussion about the actual episodes, I wouldn't have had to do so much work.

To those parties involved then (not just the two of you): Knock it off. Keep it ontopic. No personal attacks. Debate the show, not each other.

That's the end I want to read on this matter. Anything else concerning this after my post will be promptly deleted.

And like I said earlier, not everyone hates The Cryonic Woman. I was surprised actually a few months back when I was reading that many people disliked it much more than any other episode. I found it to be more of a C episode, but certainly not the worst.    

[Reply #55 on:]

In regards to The Cryonic Woman's ending, to put it simply: I didn't find it funny or satisfactory...

The Cryonic Woman is a shit episode, and everyone who likes any part of it can go eat shit.

I like the first part ...

[Reply #56 on:]

I only liked this ep because it involved Applied Cryogenics and that awesome cup of coffee/tea that rebuilds itself.

[Reply #57 on:]

This is a general comment and not directed at any posts here in particular, but I remember thinking the whole ending was so funny when I first saw this episode. The whole idea that this terrible wasteland was just "L.A." was so harsh and a hilarious twist. I know it's kind of a "screw you" to the audience in a way, but I like that if it's cleverly done and funny enough, and it still serves a certain purpose to the story - Fry and Michelle aren't in anywhere near as horrible a situation as they think they are, but their perception of it leads Michelle to reveal how horrible a person she is, and Fry (sorta) learns not to let women walk all over him anymore. And the twist itself is just so funny and clever that I don't mind being misled. "The Sting" is quite the same way, and one of the best early South Park episodes (a two-parter) was built entirely around a "screw you" ending that was extremely funny, and even with an April Fools' episode in the middle. I like it as long as it still seems logical enough and the surprise itself is hilarious.

[Reply #58 on:]

I liked that part of the ending, and I thought it was funny. When the credits came, however, I thought to myself "wait, was that it?". It was a good joke, sure, but not good enough to totally wreck the ending.

[Reply #59 on:]

On the subject of twist endings, "Rebirth" ends on kind of a screw-you note, too. We spend the entire episode worrying about Fry and Leela's relationship, but in the end the "real" Fry wasn't experiencing any of the emotional turmoil depicted in the episode--rather, it was his robotic counterpart. That twist was genuinely surprising to me, though, so kudos to the writers on that.

In general I think Futurama has really great twist endings, and that includes the ending of "The Cryonic Woman." My main beef with the episode, though, is that the last act is so disconnected from what came before, and it's nowhere near as strong, plot- or humor-wise, as what precedes it. Still, I don't hate it; for the first two acts, it's a really strong episode.

[Reply #60 on:]

On the subject of twist endings, "Rebirth" ends on kind of a screw-you note, too. We spend the entire episode worrying about Fry and Leela's relationship, but in the end the "real" Fry wasn't experiencing any of the emotional turmoil depicted in the episode--rather, it was his robotic counterpart. That twist was genuinely surprising to me, though, so kudos to the writers on that.

That is a great, Twilight Zone-y twist indeed. And I don't hate screw you endings - I think they're often pulled off quite well - that's not the problem with Cryonic.

In general I think Futurama has really great twist endings, and that includes the ending of "The Cryonic Woman." My main beef with the episode, though, is that the last act is so disconnected from what came before, and it's nowhere near as strong, plot- or humor-wise, as what precedes it. Still, I don't hate it; for the first two acts, it's a really strong episode.

I couldn't hate any Futurama episode, they are merely of higher and lower quality. All episodes are much better than mainstream television.

[Reply #61 on:]

I love the ending of Rebirth, although I also like that episode more than most people I think (it's one of my favorites of Season 6). I don't just look at it totally as "not the real Fry" anyway since he's still feeling the same things Fry would in that circumstance. He just doesn't know he isn't the original one. And it helps Leela - the real Leela - realize her feelings for Fry also, which was a long overdue angle for that whole story arc. The seasons 3/4 Fry/Leela episodes were pretty much devolving into Fry obsessively chasing after Leela and not getting the hint, and it was probably starting to verge on creepy, or at the very least a little played out. Plus, like Aki said, it's just a great, Twilight Zone-y, sci-fi twist, and I'm impressed with a cartoon sitcom of all things that can effectively pull that off. Not just as a joke, but as an actual, blow-your-mind, story twist that you really care about. But then again, as I said, I think that's a great episode in general and a lot of people apparently don't agree with me.

With Cryonic Woman, I'd say the criticism that's always made the most sense to me is the fact that Michelle is sort of a grating, annoying character. I don't mind, because she is after all written that way intentionally, and more or less gets her comeuppance (or at least, Fry learns that he really is better off without her). She's still funny and interesting enough as a foil. But I can see how she would be, well, grating for a lot of people to watch considering the fact that she's intentionally written that way. Similar to how the intentional corniness of "Less Than Hero" becomes, well, too corny to a lot of people (though hell, I love that one too).

[Reply #62 on:]

Oh, I love "Rebirth", too (for all the reasons you mention, DtB); I was just saying that the twist ending is particularly well-done in that episode. I love "Less Than Hero," too, though that is mostly because I like seeing Fry and Leela and Bender doing wacky things. Any episode that showcases the friendly dynamic between the three of them whilst they're working towards some practical end (including "The Route of All Evil" (brewing beer) and "Spanish Fry" (saving Fry's lower horn)), in the goofiest way imaginable, is always gold.

[Reply #63 on:]

Ah, gotcha. I thought it was a criticism of the episode for some reason.

"Less Than Hero" works for me because I think all of the corny superhero stuff is a hilarious parody of actual superhero stories. "Super heroes, or super zeroes?" ".....that was uncalled for..." I mean, that's just funny. But I remember some people hated it since they thought the intentional corny quality of it just worked too well, becoming corny in itself (the song being a good example, though I personally love that too). A common reason that a lot of people hated The Simpsons' "Spinoff Showcase" episode, as well. I personally love that really meta, almost purposely "bad" (for the sake of parody) stuff, but I can see how it would grate on a lot of people.

[Reply #64 on:]

totalnerduk, your supposed justifications for hating "The Cryonic Woman" are really flimsy to anyone who doesn't agree with you that it's the worst Futurama episode ever.

You're allowed to disgree. Note that aside from telling you got go fuck a squirrel in another thread (where you deserved it) I've not attempted to browbeat you for holding an opinion. Neither have I said to you that your opinions are based on a flimsy premise and should be discarded immediately.

However, you'll never win me over. The Cryonic Woman, for me, was just not good enough to save it from the ending - which I disliked immensely, for reasons I've stated. Other episodes have been brought up - all of which have redeeming features to their endings or their overall storylines. The Cryonic Woman was absent of these saving graces, therefore I can't and won't forgive it.

A few enjoyable moments can't save an episode from the damage that a bad ending can inflict... if it had actually been a funny ending, then maybe it would've been a different story.

Right, enough time spent on that. I think I'm going to spend some time in off-topic. This place is beginning to smell a little too strongly of brimstone.

[Reply #65 on:]

one example of why this is far from the worst episode ever: the joke with the olde guy having a heart attack is epic. especially since the joke continues with them using his pod as a freezer.

come on, now? that is one of the best jokes in the entire series.

[Reply #66 on:]

Personally I enjoyed Fry's line of "...and this picture of me and my old girlfriend Michelle and that ski instructor she was just friends with." and then he's in the background waving One of my top fave Fry stupid moments.

[Reply #67 on:]

one example of why this is far from the worst episode ever: the joke with the olde guy having a heart attack is epic.

It was amusing, but not "epic". Please learn to use the word "epic" correctly. If something is epic, it is not only vast in scope or scale, but also has dramatic and far-reaching consequences or implications. The word "epic" is meant to be used to describe things which have an aspect (be it size, lifespan, an ability, an implication or an effect) that dwarfs anything else almost into insignificance. By comparison to a pebble, a mountain is merely enormous. A mountain range however, would be "epic". But only in comparison to a pebble or a similar microcosm of a mountain range. Compare it to the plasma arcs on the surface of the sun, and suddenly it is no longer "epic". It's infinitesimally small.

If that's one of the best jokes in the series for you, I have to wonder if there are other jokes that you might have missed, to be honest. I mean, it's good... but there are a lot of others that I'd say were funnier or cleverer. I guess we both love the series for vastly different reasons, and what appeals to each of us from one episode will be in different areas of a Venn Diagram.

Personally I enjoyed Fry's line of "...and this picture of me and my old girlfriend Michelle and that ski instructor she was just friends with." and then he's in the background waving One of my top fave Fry stupid moments.

Yeah, the "awkward implication" jokes are always funny, and something that Futurama does particularly well. But at the same time as it makes me chuckle, that line really does make me feel sorry for Fry. Yah, he's a total clueless idiot. But he deserves better treatment than he gets, almost all of the way through that episode. Not just from Michelle, but from everybody.

[Reply #68 on:]

Hmmm...tnuk, you remind me of something that's been bothering me about some of the new episodes, but I guess I'll have to take that complaint to this thread...

[Reply #69 on:]

fry showing michelle around in the future was another very pleasing segment. plain and simple, the episode was good. many just have a bias that they refuse to let go of.

[Reply #70 on:]

You're allowed to disgree. ... I've not attempted to browbeat you for holding an opinion. Neither have I said to you that your opinions are based on a flimsy premise and should be discarded immediately.

Your opinion about "The Cryonic Woman" doesn't bother me as much as your opinion that it's "indefensible". I've proven that it's not only possible, but reasonable, to "defend" the episode by refuting your criticisms about the episode's ending.

I don't expect you to agree about the episode, but you cannot reasonably claim that "The Cryonic Woman" is "impossible to defend" -- even if you qualify that with "IMO".

[Reply #71 on:]

The reasons that the episode is for me, a bad one, put it beyond any defense as far as I'm concerned. You simply can't make a case for it. If you try to defend it, there's always going to be a reason for me to disagree, and there are always going to be glaring holes in your defense, no matter how impassioned or for what reasons.

I don't dismiss flesheatingbull's or your opinions because you like TCW or parts of TCW, and I do admit to liking parts of TCW myself. I just dislike the episode as a whole very strongly, due to the failings I see in it. The comment you quoted was in response to a direct comparison between TCW and Rebirth, and I liked Rebirth quite a bit. It's not one of my faviourites, but it's one where you can see the writers tried. As well as being pretty funny.

[Reply #72 on:]

I think people will have to agree to disagree about The Cryonic Woman, I mean I still hate the ending, others love it... What I'm getting here is that pretty much everyone likes parts of the episode regardless of weather they like all of it or not, so that should be some consolation to those coming across so seemingly disgusted that people don't like the ending...

[Reply #73 on:]

Hey, guys, remember when this thread was actually about discussing "The Cryonic Woman"? Wasn't that fun?

[Reply #74 on:]

I have no problem with this episode. It's not my favorite, it's ok with the jokes, I just rarely watch it. What disappoints me about the episode is how awful the commentary is. Usually I can forgive a sub-par episode if the commentary is really good (like Futurestock) but even this episode has commentary as dull as the episode. I don't think too much about continuity or the ending that much, it's not that big of a deal.

Soryn why do you have to be right? Why can't everyone just have their own opinions?

[Reply #75 on:]

Soryn why do you have to be right? Why can't everyone just have their own opinions?

This hasn't been about me having to be right. I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions. I haven't criticized everyone who doesn't agree with me.

In case people have forgotten, I don't consider "The Cryonic Woman" to be one of my "favourite" episodes, or a great episode, or even an above average episode. I'm not arguing my case because I even like this episode.

For too long few people have dared to disagree with the supposed majority opinion that "The Cryonic Woman" is one of the worst episodes. Fortunately, since I've opened this episode up for free debate, more and more people are admitting that they don't agree that it's one of the worst episodes; and some people have even expressed their opinions that they like it. That's wonderful.

[Reply #76 on:]

For too long few people have dared to disagree with the supposed majority opinion that "The Cryonic Woman" is one of the worst episodes. Fortunately, since I've opened this episode up for free debate, more and more people are admitting that they don't agree that it's one of the worst episodes; and some people have even expressed their opinions that they like it. That's wonderful.

Uh, plenty of people have said that they liked The Cryonic Woman or at least thought the first act was strong enough to make it not the worst episode before you even started posting.

Didn't someone already quote several posts from 2004 defending The Cryonic Woman recently?

[Reply #77 on:]

I've never understood why so many people seem to dislike this episode.

Yes, Michelle is annoying.  She's supposed to be.

Yes, Pauly Shore is a pathetic excuse for a celebrity that only an idiot would hero-worship.  He's supposed to be.

It's a decent episode that has some pretty funny bits.

[Reply #78 on:]

Uh, plenty of people have said that they liked The Cryonic Woman or at least thought the first act was strong enough to make it not the worst episode before you even started posting.

Didn't someone already quote several posts from 2004 defending The Cryonic Woman recently?

Yep. The original review thread wasn't exactly damning either. At the time it aired, the episode was quite well-recieved. Not everybody hates all of it.

I was defending Rebirth against the criticism, and saying that it is comparatively superior to TCW. It might be crap next to one of the episodes that consistently make people's top ten lists, but it's not crap next to TCW. Personally, I don't think that Rebirth deserves to be criticised. It was an episode with a difficult job to do and it managed to perform adequately whilst still being funny (and incidentally giving us one of Zapp's greatest lines).

As for The Cryonic Woman, whilst I don't hate the episode with the passionate fire that some seem to believe I do, I do dislike it. It's got continuity problems, it's got irritating characters, it's got comparatively few of the "nerd jokes" that set Futurama apart, and it's one of those episodes that makes me frustrated to watch all the way through.

That said, I will admit (as I have before) to enjoying sequences like the skateboarding duel, the cryogenics lab, and some of the early shots of the Planet Express ship in flight. In addition, it does have a couple of really funny moments... but these aren't enough to save it from its flaws.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I respect the right of most of the rest of PEEL to have a different opinion or to disagree with anything I say.

[Reply #79 on:]

I've never understood why so many people seem to dislike this episode.

Yes, Michelle is annoying.  She's supposed to be.

Yes, Pauly Shore is a pathetic excuse for a celebrity that only an idiot would hero-worship.  He's supposed to be.

It's a decent episode that has some pretty funny bits.

I agree with this. Like I've said before, the first two acts are really enjoyable; it's only the last act, with its out-of-nowhere "Let's freeze ourselves and come out in a kiddie-controlled wasteland" plot, which I feel falters and doesn't follow logically from what's come before. I realize that Michelle didn't fit in in the year 3000, but going forward in time a thousand years probably wasn't going to solve her problems...