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Author Topic: DVD inter-frame flicker  (Read 566 times)
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marco75

Crustacean
*
« on: 12-06-2003 07:58 »

I have recently watched seasons 1 & 2 (European version) and I have been annoyed by this effect: Whenever the action moves fast in 2D (scrolling background for instance) the picture mushes up consecutive frames of animation, so that signs are unreadable and little details go missing.

When I pause, the effect occurs at all times: frames of animation are displayed simultaneously, so when Fry talks, he has two mouths forming the syllables.

However, the 3D animation shots are smooth.

What causes this effect?

(I'm using Windows XP and PowerDVD, both patched to the latest versions. I even flashed my motherboard BIOS)
Beamer

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #1 on: 12-06-2003 08:12 »

It's because the 3D animation is done at a much quicker framerate, allowing it to be faster. 2D animation is done at half the speed of an average DVD, hence why shots in 2D animation last 2 frames long, and the 3D ones go frame-by frame. That blurriness of animation in 2D freezeframes is only natural, as if it wasn't like that - the animation would look very clunky at normal speed.
David A

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #2 on: 12-06-2003 09:49 »

This belongs in the Stockroom.

Also, you might want to pick a different avatar before TMC sees you, Marco.
marco75

Crustacean
*
« Reply #3 on: 12-06-2003 10:13 »

Thanks for your reply -- so basically there's nothing I can do about the effect... also, I mistakenly posted this message again; I was confused with the "assign-automatic-password-but-not-tell-you-what-it-is-procedure"
of this BB, plus I'm stupid.

What I meant to say is "Sorry about the repost".

Tell TMC I'll do something about that avatar soon... like, now.
Xmpel

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #4 on: 12-06-2003 17:51 »

How about downloading some kind of flickerfilter?

That would make it better. Althoug it would mess up everything else.
M Jackson
Professor
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« Reply #5 on: 12-07-2003 10:25 »

As good as my DVD player on my laptop is, I find that everything always looks better when I watch it on a good Sony Triniton widescreen. I guess it's just something about LCD laptop screens that never looks as good. Everyone says they're better, but since I have both and I can compare them, I always prefer watching on a real TV, it makes Futurama looks particularly good.
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #6 on: 12-07-2003 10:42 »

This is one of the reasons why I dislike being forced to use a software DVD player. On my Creative Encore DXR 3 decoder, there is absolutely no flicker at all, but in PowerDVD, you get the blur you describe.
McGrady

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #7 on: 12-07-2003 11:30 »

One good reason is how they converted from r1 to r2; they took the progressive 23.976 digital source framerate from the ntsc signal from region 1, sped it up to 24 fps, then duplicated every 24th and 25th frame and blended them.  1,2,...,23,24,24+25,25,...  the speed up also causes a 4% increase in audio pitch.

The computer graphics were merely sped up from 23.976 to 25, as far as I can tell.

So even if you have a progressive scan dvd region 2 player on a PAL tv, you will still get blended frames.  However, the good thing is they are only on screen for 1/25 of a second, every second.

Now that I think about it, the source they have is probably 24 fps that they moved down to 23.976 and telecined to get it playing on ntsc tvs.

If it is happening extremely often though, you probably have something wrong with your powerdvd player.  Try weaving instead of bob, or leave it on auto detect.  (configuration->video->advanced->try each force option and decide which one looks best)

Most software real-time deinterlacers SUCK; it looks good on tv because tv's are old and have a time delayed strobe thing so it blends the (in PALs case) phase shift to make it look good.
K5

Bending Unit
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« Reply #8 on: 12-13-2003 17:03 »

All FUTURAMA PAL DVD (S1 to S4) are "profesionally" crippled due to convert from 29.97 fps to 25 fps (instead of convert 27.97 to 23.976 and speed up to 25). Crappy DVDs are nonsense interlaced and this is visible on PC and on TV too! There are no simple way how to correct this problem.
danny-dude

Bending Unit
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« Reply #9 on: 12-16-2003 00:07 »

There's no other way of doing it. It's a mathematical thing. When you're converting thirty frames to twenty five, the only way you're going to do it is with field blending. Interlace is a pain in the butt and there *is* no easy way around it.
LAN.gnome

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #10 on: 12-16-2003 00:37 »

I've noticed the same thing on my Xbox, and to a lesser degree on my PC. On TV, it looks flawless. I, however, do not own PAL discs but Region 1 NTSCs. Could anybody point me to a (free) PC DVD player that would get rid of this problem? Obviously there's nothing that can be done for my Xbox (which plays non-animation stuff just fine, anyhow).
bart182

Professor
*
« Reply #11 on: 12-16-2003 04:05 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by danny-dude:
There's no other way of doing it. It's a mathematical thing. When you're converting thirty frames to twenty five, the only way you're going to do it is with field blending. Interlace is a pain in the butt and there *is* no easy way around it.


Would you please stop leaving peel then posting!   tongue  I'm just kidding, just don't leave this time   big grin

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marco75

Crustacean
*
« Reply #12 on: 12-17-2003 09:09 »

Thanks for these thoroughly enlightening answers. McGrady, I tried the "force weave" option, and surprisingly, it DOES seem to help.

I'm from Europe, but I always thought NTSC TV alternates scanlines at 30 Hz, whereas PAL sets flicker at 25, giving a "combined" refresh rate of 60 and 50 frames per second respectively.

Also I understand TV's refresh rate is enough to fool the human brain into seeing fluid motion, the flicker is still very noticeable (due to the interlacing?) So have scientist determined the framerate that gives maximum viewing comfort?
FlasUrama

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #13 on: 12-17-2003 15:35 »

Hey LAN, i use Zoomplayer which is a DVD player that can do a buckey load of stuff im not sure it's what you want but i thought i might as well suggest it -   http://www.inmatrix.com/files/zoomplayer_download.shtml
McGrady

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #14 on: 12-17-2003 16:42 »

NTSC TVs draw about 60 fields per second; the "cool down" time of a field is about 1/2 second.  So a field actually strobes then cools off, getting darker then redrawn a second later.  Most high budget tv shows (futurama) since the mid 90s are shot in film, giving a 24 fps.  It is slowed down to 23.976 fps, then split into fields.  The 5th field is blended with the 6th field, which ends up giving a net gain of 6 fps, giving the 29.976 frames per second/59.952 fields per second, usually just rounded to 60 fields per second.

PAL TVs draw 50 fields a second; this causes each field to be offset from the previous field by a small amount.  Weaving works well in PAL because every frame is actually made of the 1/2 the current frames field (even or odd) + the previous frames field (odd or even).  Weaving takes the current even field and combines it with the next frames odd field which in theory should give a perfect original picture.  Bob doubles every fields in a frame and does vertical blending, causing the blending.

They took the digital source at 24 fps and merged 1/2 the fields in the 25 frame with 1/2 the fields in the 26th frame which ended up giving blends, which are irremovable.
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