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Author Topic: It's back... in "Pog" form: The Simpsons, Season 15 (part 2)  (Read 7281 times)
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DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #480 on: 03-08-2004 00:59 »

Well, I don't think disjointed episodes are a product of being out of ideas really.  I think its just lazy writing.
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #481 on: 03-08-2004 01:30 »

Don't forget the crappy Chicken lunches.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #482 on: 03-08-2004 05:05 »

Rotisserie Chicken, yes.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #483 on: 03-08-2004 05:47 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DotheBartman:
Well, I don't think disjointed episodes are a product of being out of ideas really.  I think its just lazy writing.

In some ways, lack of ideas and lazy writing are symptoms of the same problem - the show's simply gone on too long.

The trouble is this situation isn't likely to be remedied anytime soon, because the show's been fuelled by the "mindless sheep" demographic, who'll watch it no matter how bad it gets, because The Simpsons Is The Greatest Show Of All Time So I Must Watch Every Episode Religiously.  These people will actually delude themselves into thinking that every episode's fantastic.

It's the same problem that afflicted Star Trek during Voyager's final years.  No matter how poorly written and contrived the episodes became, people lapped it up because it was Star Trek.  Fortnuately Enterprise is so truly, truly awful these people are finally beginning to wake up and smell the coffee, and the next year or two should see the show put out of it's misery.  Eventually the same thing will happen to the Simpsons.
bender+fry

Professor
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« Reply #484 on: 03-08-2004 07:08 »

i think those people dont watch it and think about it, they just watch it and brag about the good parts to their friends.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #485 on: 03-08-2004 07:16 »

Exactly.  They watch it because it's fashoinable to.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #486 on: 03-08-2004 12:02 »

Eh, I still just don't consider "running out of ideas" or "its gone on too long" to be an excuse.  Its one thing for the simpler ideas to be used up (I don't want to say that they've run out of ideas completely because this just isn't the kind of show where you even can run out of ideas).  But that is absolutely no excuse for horrible characterization, plain bad plot ideas, etc. The ideas may not be as fresh as they were in 1990 but I just don't consider that to be an excuse for, say, having the family go to Africa and fight diamond miners or something for no reason.
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #487 on: 03-08-2004 14:37 »

Its true there still plenty of good idea available, but Brake My wife please a particulary bad one howerver. generally the plots all dont feel so disjointed. I mean people complain about the Irellervant first acts, but it had always been a trademark of the show, its just now there are some that connect in pretty obscure ways, but its often funny so it doesn't really matter, The scene of Maggie being locked in the bathroom in 'Today I am a Clown for example.'
CrazyDoc

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #488 on: 03-08-2004 14:50 »
« Last Edit on: 03-08-2004 14:50 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by PCC Fred
It's the same problem that afflicted Star Trek during Voyager's final years. No matter how poorly written and contrived the episodes became, people lapped it up because it was Star Trek. Fortnuately Enterprise is so truly, truly awful these people are finally beginning to wake up and smell the coffee, and the next year or two should see the show put out of it's misery. Eventually the same thing will happen to the Simpsons.


Not while there's a steady undercurrent of fans who like Al Jean's work, it won't.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #489 on: 03-08-2004 17:21 »

I said "eventually".  The Simpsons isn't about to get axed, but I predict that in four or five years it's going to be in bad shape.
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #490 on: 03-08-2004 18:02 »

I think Groening and Brooks will stop the show when it passes 20 seasons. In fact I have an Idea
that Brooks and Groening should Produce the last season or 2. Knowing it will be the last.

After Season 16 of course it seems Jean may Go and write the Movie so maybe they'll have to find a new showrunner. For me I'd say either bring back Oakley and Weinstein or If possible Jon Vitti. Thoughts on that anyone else?
Mouse On Venus

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #491 on: 03-08-2004 18:04 »

Schwarzwelder wouldn't do it, but he should.
Shadowstar

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #492 on: 03-08-2004 18:10 »

What, be show-runner? He's written some bad episodes recently. But he was a good writer. But so was Mike Scully, and now he's a bad writer AND was a bad executive producer! I'm torn.
Mouse On Venus

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #493 on: 03-08-2004 18:13 »

To save DoTheBartman from repeating himself for the umpteenth time, gawdbless'im, many of Schwarzwelder's turkeys were most likely the result of massive doctoring from Professor Scully. And as for The Regina Monologues, well...anyone would've had trouble writing that one.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #494 on: 03-08-2004 18:20 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by User_names_suck:
I think Groening and Brooks will stop the show when it passes 20 seasons. In fact I have an Idea
that Brooks and Groening should Produce the last season or 2. Knowing it will be the last.

Groening may write the final episode, but I doubt he'd return to produse the entire final two seasons.  As for James L Brooks, he'll be almost 70 when the Simpsons reaches it's 20th season.
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #495 on: 03-08-2004 18:26 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mouse On Venus:
Schwarzwelder wouldn't do it, but he should.
Its Swartzwelder by the way and I belive he had been given the option to as well as George Meyer but they both turned it down so then they resorted to Scully.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shadowstar:
What, be show-runner? He's written some bad episodes recently. But he was a good writer. But so was Mike Scully, and now he's a bad writer AND was a bad executive producer! I'm torn.
Its really hard to tell who would be best. I mean Scully's work turned out good becuase of his bosses being Mirkin and Oakley & Weinstein and probably the work of other good writers.
Which is why Jeans era still isn't perfect because
there's probably a lot of other bad writers there presumably hired by Scully. Incidentlly we can blame Mirkin for bringing Scully in.
But over time Jean should get rid of some crappy ones and bring better ones in Bill Odenkirk came in this season along with J. Stewart Burns who was already there.
But still for all we know Ian-Maxtone-Graham could be the best writer there, and If he just really boned up on all the Simpsons history he would be perfect for showrunner and bring the show into a new era of greatness. But somehow I doubt it.
Mouse On Venus

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #496 on: 03-08-2004 18:36 »

Now is Bill Odenkirk really a writer for The Simpsons, because imdb.com hasn't got him down and I've not seen him mentioned elsewhere?
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #497 on: 03-08-2004 18:38 »
« Last Edit on: 03-08-2004 18:38 »

Well I saw his name credited as one of three Supervising Producers on 'Today I am A Clown'
So either They need a 'Written by' credit or its too recent.
Mouse On Venus

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #498 on: 03-08-2004 18:43 »

Okay. Well if I catch "Marge Vs. Etc." this Sunday I'll have a look.
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #499 on: 03-08-2004 18:46 »
« Last Edit on: 03-08-2004 18:46 »

Why dont you trust me   cry

I'm not expecting much though because thats got  mostly very Bad Reviews even at The No Homers Club. 

On second thoughts maybe that means It'll be good  roll eyes
Mouse On Venus

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #500 on: 03-08-2004 18:56 »

I haven't actually watched a new Simpsons episode since the 300th one, so I couldn't possibly comment. All I know is that when I last saw The Simpsons, it was still in a big rut.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #501 on: 03-08-2004 21:10 »

Marge vs. Etc. is one of the weakest episodes of the season.  Please don't base your opinion of this current season on it.

Jon Vitti, who was mentioned earlier as someone who could potentially come back, is in fact back right now.  In fact he wrote Marge vs. Etc., oddly enough.  He also wrote the upcoming "Simple Simpson" (all that's known for that one is the title).

Meyer and Vitti have both been offered (and turned down) showrunner status at some point.  I'm not sure about Swartzwelder, especcially since he doesn't exactly visit the show's studio much anymore.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #502 on: 03-08-2004 21:53 »
« Last Edit on: 03-08-2004 21:53 »

I watched "Marge Vs. Etc..." last night, and my opinion on it hasn't changed a bit. I was surprised that Jon Vitti, a great writer of such classics as "Simpson and Delilah" and "Lisa's Substitute" (although keep in mind they were both in the excellent second season) could produce such a genuinely bad episode. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see him writing for the show, but I hope future episodes by him will be better.
Didn't Mr. Vitti actually write some episodes in season 13 as well as the seasons after? I recall him being the writer of (I think) "Little Girl in the Big Ten". If memory serves me right (which it normally doesn't), he wrote on and off for the show after (about) season 6, at which point he served as a member of the staff on "The Critic". Of course he had a producing credit on The Simpsons at certain points, but many people on the staff are credited as producers, so the title may not reflect how much input that that person has.
But, as it has already been stated, what I can gather is that Jon Vitti isn't as involved as he was 11 or 12 years ago in the process of producing the show. For those who are keeping track, Vitti has written two shows (so far) for season 15.
As for both Vitti and Meyer turning down show-runner positions, I can't say that I blame them. I'm not entirely sure, but I consider the two of them (along with John Swartzwelder) to be rather quiet. If you listen to Al Jean and Mike Reiss, who ran the show as a team in seasons 3 and 4, they appear to have that certain thing that one needs to be able to run an institution, which The Simpsons has become. In my opinion, they are brilliant writers, but not fit to be show runners. 
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #503 on: 03-08-2004 22:11 »

Ah, another chance to show off my useless Simpsons knowledge.  The basic Vitti timeline:

Seasons 1-4: Writes continuously.  Leaves the show after that (though his "Cape Feare" is held over into season five). 

seasons 5-6: Works on The Critic (as far as I know)

Season 7: With The Critic cancelled, briefly returns to write "Home Sweet Home Diddly Dum Doodily".  Leaves again to work on King of the Hill and maybe something else (I think he worked on "Larry Sanders" or something at one point).

Season 13: Returns again to write "Old Man and the Key", "Weekend at Burnsies", and "Little Girl in the Big Ten".  Then leaves again.

Season 15: Another return, this time for Marge vs. Etc. and the upcoming "Simple Simpson".

Who knows how many more adventures Vitti will have on the show between now and when it becomes unprofitable.


Blackadder11

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #504 on: 03-09-2004 02:36 »
« Last Edit on: 03-09-2004 02:36 »

Has anyone else noticed Marge becoming increasingly dumb in the Simpsons recently? It seems to be especially noticeable if you watch a current episode to something from, say, season three. I know she's never been a genius, but she just seemed to have less lines in the older seasons that made her look like an idiot, and seemed to be a little more aware of Homer's plans and schemes.

Edit: And what is with this trend of dumbing down the show's character's over the years? Homer didn't start out nearly as dumb as he is now, and Mr. Burns, who was once quite intelligent, has become an idiot who is not much further up than Homer himself, especially when you consider his complete unawareness of Smither's attraction to him.
Teesside Inc

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #505 on: 03-09-2004 03:10 »

Marge said a crapy line in the 1st act The Simpsons - Tis The Fifteenth Season.

Marge: Let's shop till we droop.

What a crapy line.
bender+fry

Professor
*
« Reply #506 on: 03-09-2004 04:23 »

[Commmentary] Once you make them stupider, you cant bring them back. [/Commentary]
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #507 on: 03-09-2004 13:24 »

Actually In some first season episodes Marge was even stupider then because the characters were undefined and developed.
To be honest though I kind of agree on Marge its one character Jean hasn't really fixed, although to be fair Marges character has never quite settled completley in any season.
Its sill a step up from The Stupid Psychotic, Obsessive compulsive (I think thats the right term sorry If I'm getting it confused with something else) Marge Of The Scully era.
DotheBartman

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #508 on: 03-09-2004 15:53 »

Yeah, Marge is the one character they still tend to struggle with.  She's not trying to kill people anymore, but she does seem a little dumb and too much of an obsessive clean freak and such in certain episodes.  She's been getting better though, and in all fairness she's supposedly always been the hardest to write for.

Again, I would argue that Homer isn't so bad with his stupidity these days, although he's still certainly dumber then in the beginning. Burns I agree on, although more in terms of him becoming a slapstick senile clown (in all fairness this change started during the Oakley/Weinstein era, not the Scully era)instead of the evil rich tyrant.  This season or next there is going to be an episode on him becoming a media conglomerate though.
bender+fry

Professor
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« Reply #509 on: 03-09-2004 16:51 »

Mr. Burns should be a balding, bitter, smart, billionare. When he is, hes just great.
Nurdbot

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #510 on: 03-09-2004 17:02 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Teesside Inc:
Marge said a crapy line in the 1st act The Simpsons - Tis The Fifteenth Season.

Marge: Let's shop till we droop.

What a crapy line.
You forgot the second P, moron.

Mouse On Venus

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #511 on: 03-09-2004 17:16 »

In some ways I think it's a shame that The Simpsons is so extensively group written because it allows little individual talent of the credited writer to shine through. In Futurama at least, some of the credited writer shone through, with episodes from Ken Keeler, Lew Morton and Eric Horsted being fine examples.
User_names_suck
Professor
*
« Reply #512 on: 03-09-2004 17:19 »
« Last Edit on: 03-10-2004 00:00 »

Well Burns More Sympathetic side came in Season 2 with Blood Feud, With Oakley and Weinstein it wasn't so much a senile clown as much that they seemed to be suggesting he was about 150 and had no concept
of anything invented beyond the 1920's Its good to give him a more Sympathetic senile helpless side I like that aspect a lot but The main example comes in Homer The Smithers. Where It may have been taken a little too far.(although The idea of his mother still being alive is truly hilarious.) That said there were moments in Raging Abe Simpson where he was more evil than ever before.
Mountain Of Madness in season 8 which I consider possibly one of the funniest ever. Did have a good blend of his two charcteristics.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mouse On Venus:
In some ways I think it's a shame that The Simpsons is so extensively group written because it allows little individual talent of the credited writer to shine through. In Futurama at least, some of the credited writer shone through, with episodes from Ken Keeler, Lew Morton and Eric Horsted being fine examples.
Yeah They have a ridculous number of producers now. They probably credited even if they had virtually no influence on an episode at all.  Its going to take about 5 minutes to see odenkirks name on sunday by the way.
I  read  an interview with George Meyer from a few years ago in which he said that the show did use to have a much more indvidual flavour where you really could tell a Jon Vitti script from a John Swartzwelder script. he also said that its more of an extensive room write as opposed to re-write now. I guess its why a lot of crappy jokes slip through.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #513 on: 03-09-2004 17:21 »
« Last Edit on: 03-09-2004 17:21 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mouse On Venus:
In some ways I think it's a shame that The Simpsons is so extensively group written because it allows little individual talent of the credited writer to shine through. In Futurama at least, some of the credited writer shone through, with episodes from Ken Keeler, Lew Morton and Eric Horsted being fine examples.

I have to agree here, with those fine examples; less heads equaled more, because things stayed more focused on the original point of the episode. I'm not saying this is always the case, but it can be refreshing and give a different more coherent feel to episodes...
bender+fry

Professor
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« Reply #514 on: 03-09-2004 19:20 »

did anyone get simpsons gone wild? i want to know what the featurette was like.
CrazyDoc

Bending Unit
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« Reply #515 on: 03-09-2004 20:29 »

PCC Fred, when you talk about the 'mindless sheep' demographic, are you including those people who have 'come back' to the show since Mike Scully left?
leelaholic

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #516 on: 03-10-2004 13:48 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Teesside Inc:
Marge said a crapy line in the 1st act The Simpsons - Tis The Fifteenth Season.

Marge: Let's shop till we droop.

What a crapy line.
It was meant to be a crappy line. It's one of those jokes where Marge tries to say some phrase and fails miserably.

Personally, I thought it was hilarious.
Ranadok

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #517 on: 03-10-2004 14:05 »

No, the "run like the wind" line was meant that way.  This one was Marge changing the original line because the original was "too violent". It may be some kind of attempted satire on political correctness or kneejerk, over the top censorship, but it is a lame line regardless.
Shadowstar

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #518 on: 03-10-2004 16:24 »

And they used it twice. Once was enough. I mean, come on. After watching my new Futurama DVD, I see how much better these episodes are to new Simpsons.
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #519 on: 03-10-2004 18:53 »

Yeah there was one bad line I mean come on simpsons is rubbish now  roll eyes
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