Shipping Even Higher into the Sun...

[Reply #280 on:]

I agree that characters should dictate story structure and not the other way around, but at least I could understand why the writers were stretching Leela's character so much in that particular episode. They had a reason for what they did, flimsy though it may be, and I guess I can respect it.

[Reply #281 on:]

I don't consider Leela "immovable" but I can agree with "finely-tuned" as far as the original run went and I like Inquisitor Hein's comparisons. Maybe it is more appropriate to compare Mobius Dick to the beginning of The Sting or to something like the demolition derby, but both of those things were just scenes as opposed to the entire episode so that makes Mobius Dick seem like more. Still, I think Mobius Dick definitely exaggerated that one trait of hers more than it has ever been pushed before.

Most if not all of the rest of the PX crew have some really major character traits that can be heavily emphasized without them stepping out of character - Fry's stupidity, Bender's cruelty, the Professor's senility, etc. Leela doesn't really have one of those, so it's really obvious when the writers try to overemphasize any of the traits she does have.

[Reply #282 on:]

They should stick to emphasising her breasts.

[Reply #283 on:]

And downplaying the eye.

[Reply #284 on:]

The uncanny valley is probably why Leela can never get a date, but every woman in the universe wants Kif's goodies.

[Reply #285 on:]

Leela's inability to get dates has always bothered me, I guess because it seems like such a sitcom cliche (the beautiful woman who can't find one decent guy), and generally I think that Futurama should be above such things. Oh well.

[Reply #286 on:]

In truth, there aren't that many decent guys.

[Reply #287 on:]

Leela's inability to get dates has always bothered me, I guess because it seems like such a sitcom cliche (the beautiful woman who can't find one decent guy), and generally I think that Futurama should be above such things. Oh well.

...and often the other side of that cliche is that there's a wonderful, loving guy who  is stuck in the friend zone (Fry).

[Reply #288 on:]

...and often the other side of that cliche is that there's a wonderful, loving guy who  is stuck in the friend zone (Fry).

True, but at least that part of the trope is a bit more believable to me. I think the situation of an average guy who loves an unattainable girl (or a girl who he perceives as unattainable) happens a lot more often in real life than does the reverse, an unattainable girl who only attracts slime-ball guys. Of course, I'm speaking as someone who is totally average and highly attainable, so chances are I'm full of crap.

[Reply #289 on:]

What I always considered illogical about Leela's dates (or rather her appearance as beautiful woman or not):

The classic episodes featured often people to be really put off by her eye (and..trust a guy's word on this... it will take a real "special" face when even 36-24-36 can no longer compensate for it).

Neither Leela's appearance, nor the ideal of beauty have changed during the show. I do see the necessity to give Fry a rival  (e.g. Chazs character did really a good what was expected from him storywise), but the jumping between "Beautiful woman" and
"Hello-From-The-Neck-Down-Person-That-Is-Anything-But-A-Looker-Facewise"
seemd a bit inconsistent, a bit too plot-driven.

I consider "Fry am the Egg Man" one Episode where they handled that contradiction in a real excellent way. "We don't got too many pretty faces around here"...it established
once again a rival for Fry interested in Leela, but also made clear what kind of  company it would take to make Leela look "pretty" facewise.

[Reply #290 on:]

What I always considered illogical about Leela's dates (or rather her appearance as beautiful woman or not):

The classic episodes featured often people to be really put off by her eye (and..trust a guy's word on this... it will take a real "special" face when even 36-24-36 can no longer compensate for it).

Neither Leela's appearance, nor the ideal of beauty have changed during the show. I do see the necessity to give Fry a rival  (e.g. Chazs character did really a good what was expected from him storywise), but the jumping between "Beautiful woman" and
"Hello-From-The-Neck-Down-Person-That-Is-Anything-But-A-Looker-Facewise"
seemd a bit inconsistent, a bit too plot-driven.

I consider "Fry am the Egg Man" one Episode where they handled that contradiction in a real excellent way. "We don't got too many pretty faces around here"...it established
once again a rival for Fry interested in Leela, but also made clear what kind of  company it would take to make Leela look "pretty" facewise.

Well I was really confused at first, but my theory is "the uncanny valley."  Kif only vaguely looks human, but for some reason, beauty standards in the future have him be extremely desirable among the females of many different lifeforms.  

Leela on the other hand basically looks VERY human, but her GIGANTIC eye being the one thing that (usually) seperates her from normal humans is pretty offputting.  Plus eyes are easily the first thing we notice when we look at a human being in a face, (windows to the soul and all that).  We notice people's eyes far more then we notice eachother's noses or mouths or ears.  Seriously, imagine someone you care about with one gigantic the size of the palm of their hand staring out from the middle of the face.  Unsettling, isn't it?   Her one eye is a just a quirk on her character design, (I didn't even notice it the first time I saw pictures of the show), but is something that probably wouldn't translate very well in real life.  The closer things get to looking human without actually quite making it (such as those creepy japanese sex robots, porcelain dolls or some CGI characters), the more offputting and unsettling we find them.  Leela looks very human, but what sets her apart?  A gigantic, staring eye.  One thing I've noticed is that when artists try and draw Leela realistically, it mostly looks rather creepy.  I've often found myself finding realistic! Leela looking much scarier then say, realistic Kif or Zoidberg.   Drawing a tear duct on her eye makes it look even worse, because it makes it look like she's missing half her face.  

More here.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

That's the only reason I can think of, that Kif is considered extremely attractive, but Leela scares or grosses most human males out.  Then again it is down to invididual tastes.  Fry thinks Edna is gross, but Candy and Zoidberg appeared to be dating, and Edna is pretty good looking for a red alien with tentacles for lips.

Speaking of shipping, I am watching Mother's Day at the moment, and Fry looks pretty buffed up pulling that cart (sweaty, shirtless, and his stomach has a bit of muscle definition there. Rawr.  And he even holds up a six pack of booze when you see his newly defined tummy.)   As has been said before, Fry should be the target of affection/lust for one episode, where Leela tries to make him forgive him for something.   Fry is good looking, but he has the potential to look even better, if he just went to the gym every now and then and took better care of himself (yes we all love his lovable jelly belly.)

[Reply #291 on:]

That is a really good point, SpaceGoldfish, not to mention a particularly interesting Wikipedia article that I've been reading for the past ten minutes straight.

My art teacher last year actually has this picture on his office door of someone who photoshopped herself to have one giant Leela-esque eye, the sort of effect you get if you pres your forehead to someone else's and look at them (I don't know why she did this or why he put it up, but it's there), and it is creepy as hell. Every time I'd go to ask him a question I'd be like "euugh". When portrayed realistically, it's just not a pleasant effect.

You're also right that eyes are a really crucial aspect of a person's body and one of the things people often notice first. If she had horns or something like that it would make way less of an impact than her eye does.

Kif, not to mention the fact that he has a face laid out in the recognizable human pattern, is probably considered very attractive by Amphibiosan standards, which must be held in high regard by the standards of a lot of other species.

[Reply #292 on:]

Exactly!  Leela having cat ears/antlers/a tail/blue skin has a LOT less impact then a gigantic eye.  I can imagine that picture being EXTREMELY unsettling, and Leela would probably terrify a lot of people in real life.  Whilst Kif looks reasonably humanoid, he doesn't look human enough to fall into the uncanny valley, and part of the joke is that humans today would probably find him pretty ugly (Amy loves to press her lips against his lipless beak).

It could be a joke after all, in that all Amphibiasoans look the same yet Kif is considered extremely attractive (kind of like a reverse Ugly Bob or Meg Griffin).  Glab for example, is just Kif with boobs and lipstick.   Or Amphibiosans could be a race of highly sexually desirable creatures in the future.  Even the manhating robot Femputer thinks he's attractive.   Hatty, Amy and the Amphbiosans all go crazy for that "beautiful" and "small green kissy man".  I actually wouldn't be surprised if the stranger mutants fit in better in NNY soceity and its weird aliens then the more human looking ones do.  I think it's going to be a lot harder for Morris (whose sideways jaw is much freakier then his wife's tentacle and tail) to fit in, rather then say, Vyolet (who could easily pass for an alien)

[Reply #293 on:]

Leela's eye does not make her a victim of the uncanny valley.  She looks like a Cyclops.  Even if mythical beasts, we can certainly relate to that.  If she was truly a victim of the uncanny valley, she would appear human (i.e. with two eyes) except she was obviously not (e.g. a robot).

[Reply #294 on:]

I diagree.  Her eye looks cute in teh Futurama verse, but looks bizzaire or unsettling in the real world.  The only thing that stops her looking like a normal human is her gigantic eye.  Plus there aren't any uncanny valley robots in Futurama because almost none of them are made to look human.  In fact robot females seem to be considered more attractive the less humanoid they look (the Crushinator is considered highly desirable, and is the "pretty one" out of her daisy duke type sisters, and the feather boa wearing stripper robot doesn't even have a face, but appears to be the star out of the stripperbot show)

Its the only explanation I can think of that Amphibosians, horrible gelatinous blobs and decapodians are seen with human girlfriends, but Leela's eye elicits disgust and fear among humans.    I imagine something similar will happen to Sally when she grows up (resembles a human closely, but has a third ear and a tail)

Seriously, just google "realistic Leela".  Most of the pictures are more then a bit creepy looking.

[Reply #295 on:]

But that is not the uncanny valley, that's just because she is scary as a Cyclops.  That's like seeing someone who looks creepy, but they are still human.

Creepy/unsettling != uncanny valley.  Though, creepy/unsettling may be a consequence of the uncanny valley.

[Reply #296 on:]

No but it scary that she closely resembles a human, but has a massive staring eye.  Like I said Realistic!Leela always freaks me out far more then Realistic!Zoidberg.    If she had purple skin, tentacles and a sucker where her mouth should be and eight legs, she would actually freak me out less.  A lifeform that closely resembles humans except for one massive difference or something just off counts as uncanny valley.  Plus its her eye that is different, and the human eye is what we focus on in conversation and recognizing others (giving a mutant creature human eyes is much more effective then giving them human lips or ears). 

The point of the uncanny valley is that something looks human, but there is something off about them.  Even non human characters who look too realistic can fall into this.  Its one of the many reasons that are blamed for Shark Tale's flop.  Finding Nemo has cartoonish characters, while Shark Tale's have fish with creepily human faces and mannerisms, which has led some reviewers saying it falls uncanny valley.

[Reply #297 on:]

Then the reviewers were wrong.  The uncanny valley refers to the fact that it isn't obvious what is supposedly off about them (such as a single eye or fish with human faces).

[Reply #298 on:]

I diagree.  Her eye looks cute in teh Futurama verse, but looks bizzaire or unsettling in the real world.  

Yep. In the Futurama Universe, two normal Human eyes often do meet each other in the middle (e.g. Fry). So, Leelas eye "Groening style" looks rather than two normal eyes that are joined. But her eye does not cover much more space than the two eyes of an ordinary human.
I think this photo manip version (found it somewhere on the net, is it okay to post it here?)



is the maximum eye size where you can still stay in the "pretty girl" zone and not entering the "creepy monster" zone...
This eye is about as big as two human eyes, but does  not cover the whole space from the left eyes to the right eyes outside...

[Reply #299 on:]

Why? The whole point of Uncanny Valley is that it looks human, but there's something off.  A china doll can fall into the uncanny valley as its human, gets very close to looking human, but its proportions are off, and its skin has a glossy sheen that normal humans don't have.   It's not just sex robots with vinyl skin that fall into it/ 

Like I said, Leela would actually look a lot less unsettling if she wasn't so damn human looking to begin with.  She's very humanoid, but her eye just throws it off and looks eerie when you make it realistic, as Hein has just shown.   
Cover the eye with your thumb: that's a very pretty lady with fantastic hair dye.
Lift up your thumb: OH GOD.  Leela is not a mythological cyclps since they are giant flesh eating giants who happen to have one eye.  She's a pretty girl who if it wasn't for her eye, would look human.  What would make her look scary in real life isn't the one eye, it's the fact she comes so close to being a human without actually being one.   If she didn't have the eye, she would look like a normal human.  Its a difference that is massive yet subtle at the same time.

Plus it doesn't help that Leela and her family are the products of good old fashioned body horror. 

[Reply #300 on:]

Hein, that for sure enters "creepy" territory for me. Svip, when you say "she looks like a Cyclops"... most of the depictions of mythological Cyclopses I've seen are huge and hideous and not very reminiscent of Leela. I'm not really sure where you're going with that statement?

Shark Tale totally creeped me out as a kid and now it makes sense why!

Leela's eye looks good in the Groening-verse because it's about the same size as Fry's eyes put together, it doesn't have any of the myriad lid wrinkles/tearducts/etc that realistic eyes do, and probably most importantly it doesn't have a huge iris/pupil thing. Once artists trying to get realistic add in an iris/pupil with a size that compensates for the largeness of the eye itself, that's when, at east for me, it starts getting creepy.

Which isn't to say there's never a creepy factor within the Groening-verse. Occasionally when Leela's in angry or intense-fight mode there's a definite element of monstrousness that strikes me, which is disorienting because most of the time I hardly notice the eye.

I think SpaceGoldfish is right about Uncanny Valley. Munda, what with the tentacles and the tail on top of the eye, is less unsettling.

[Reply #301 on:]

And yet Leela is considered the least-mutated mutant ever born, which probably also says something about sensibilities in the thirty-first century, and about what's considered attractive. I do agree that a huge, saucer-like eye is way more off-putting than tentacles and a lion tail, but somehow having just that one, super-creepy mutation still allows Leela to live comfortably on the surface, while neither of her parents--who have more than one pronounced mutation--can. I guess it's about quantity, not quality. Or something.

Also: Remember when this thread was about the character's relationships?

[Reply #302 on:]

Which is also why I consider it unimportant to even discuss whether Leela looks creepy.  I think it is pretty well established that Leela is creepy because she is unusual, yet looks human.  Like the janitor, "argh, I thought you had two eyes".  That's not uncanny valley, that's just something expected being turned around.  We can easily accept if someone lacks an arm or other limbs (yet it feels weird, but not uncanny valley), but Leela being different is a problem.

Besides, 'realistic Leela' doesn't even make sense to discuss, I am certain Fry is meant to see the Leela as she appears on the show; she is often hinted at being sexy.  If she was a subject of the uncanny valley, she would not be sexy.  Even to Fry.

[Reply #303 on:]

Also: Remember when this thread was about the character's relationships?

Which we ignored in the latest post...but why should we do better than the writing staff

[Reply #304 on:]

Plus Munda looks less creepy then Morris, who has a vertical jaw instead of a horizontal one.  It's a minor twist and less noticable then Munda's tentacles and tail, but I would say his mutation comes off as a lot more creepy then say, Vyolet's pig snout, scaly skin and gills (since she barely looks human anymore.)

Another thing Spira is that... how would Leela's eyebrows work?  Our eyebrows frame our face and add a sense of symmetry (of course we don't have perfect facial symmetry, but we have eyes on each side, two nostrils, a tear duct to the side of each eye and so on).... but adding an eyebrow to Leela's face makes it look even worse.  Human eyebrows generally start of thin, and get thicker as they approach the top of the nose (realistic Leela's nose woudl actually be lower down on her face, instead of between her eyes, adding more creepiness).  She couldn't have a monobrow, because monobrows curve around the eye, and having no eyebrows would be just as bad (when desinging the main antagonist in Silent Hill 3, the character designer removed the character's eyebrows, which gave a subtly creepy appearance) Leela works well in Matt Groening's simple style, but looks creepy as she gets more realistic and as Spira has said, once she starts getting wrinkles of skin, tear ducts, eyebrows and so on.  As she has also said, Leela's pupil/iris would actually be as large as a normal human eye wouldn't they?

Again with the picture above.   Cover that pretty lady's eye with your thumb.  Human.  Lift it.  Not human.  Creepy.

But Gorky, Leela has faced discrimination, hostility and revulsion as a result of having one eye, far more then the weirder looking aliens have faced (hell Kif is considered something of a sex god in the Futurama verse, yet Leela gets told yeeeuch and arrgh from most human guys.)   I always thought that plot line was a bit strange to be honest, because most of the weirder looking mutants barely look human anymore, and could easily pass for aliens.  What gives?  I'm guessing Morris and Munda are the only aliens smart enough to try such a gambit.   (and that DNA tests in the future are a load of baloney.)  Everything about Sally's appearance screams "MUTANT!!!" and is pretty much regarded as one, yet no one has dumped her in the sewers.  Again I think the weird looking mutants will be able to transition much better into 31st century soceity then the human looking ones.   We have seen some EXTREMELY bizzaire mutants in TMAR, such as the woman who looks like a frog in lipstick,  the cionel, and the rat girl.

[Reply #305 on:]

Well, as far as the weirder-looking aliens go, they've got their own species. There are more than one of them. Probably a lot of the weirder-looking alien species faced discrimination in the past, but most of them have probably been on Earth for at least one or two hundred years if not more. Whereas Leela's the only one who looks like she does.

Oh, yeah, eyebrows, forgot about those. I've drawn Leela in a still-very-cartoony style with an eyebrow before and it looks fine, but realistically it wouldn't.

As far as the actual topic of this thread goes, I think it's relevant to discuss how Leela's perceived by the general population as a comparison to how she's perceived by Fry.

[Reply #306 on:]

Exactly, since it makes her who she is as a character (those years of abuse, nasty comments and alienation are what makes her usually reluctant to trust people and let them get close, yet it also has made her a carting, meternal individual, which is why she seems to share a close connection with Sally) and says a lot about Fry that he can look past that and not only love her for who she is, but genuinely think she is beautiful.  I can't remember, was he freaked out or grossed out when she turned around in the first episode?

[Reply #307 on:]

He was, but he got over it in like 0.6 seconds.

Initial reaction, though:

[Reply #308 on:]

More like both seems to be exactly guess. Freaked out and grossed out.

[Reply #309 on:]

True, and Fry's love of sci fi and pop culture is what allowes him to transition into the future so smoothly.  I'm betting his first crush was Oola from Star Wars.  Or he wouldn't say no to rule 34 of Princess Ruto.

But another good example is Cyber House Rules, where Fry tries to show Leela that her uniqueness is what makes her so beautiful to him, and he likes her the way he is, in complete contrast to Adalai who despises individuality and non comformity and instead of liking Leela for who she is (and Sally) tries to mould them into what he thinks they should be.  Fry likes Leela because she's one in a million.  Adelai wants her to be just like the 99999 others, and will only tolerate her if she becomes as predictable, boring and unemotional as he is, which in his world, is the norm and is desirable. 

[Reply #310 on:]

Yeah, but unlike the uncanny valley, this was an issue Fry (and the PE crew) could shake off.  You cannot shake off the unsettling feel of the uncanny valley.

[Reply #311 on:]

Yeah, but unlike the uncanny valley, this was an issue Fry (and the PE crew) could shake off.  You cannot shake off the unsettling feel of the uncanny valley.

Some peopel can get over it, or are completely oblivious to it,  if those creepy Reborn baby dolls are anything to go by. 

[Reply #312 on:]

I diagree.  Her eye looks cute in teh Futurama verse, but looks bizzaire or unsettling in the real world.  The only thing that stops her looking like a normal human is her gigantic eye.  Plus there aren't any uncanny valley robots in Futurama because almost none of them are made to look human.  In fact robot females seem to be considered more attractive the less humanoid they look (the Crushinator is considered highly desirable, and is the "pretty one" out of her daisy duke type sisters, and the feather boa wearing stripper robot doesn't even have a face, but appears to be the star out of the stripperbot show)

Its the only explanation I can think of that Amphibosians, horrible gelatinous blobs and decapodians are seen with human girlfriends, but Leela's eye elicits disgust and fear among humans.    I imagine something similar will happen to Sally when she grows up (resembles a human closely, but has a third ear and a tail)

Seriously, just google "realistic Leela".  Most of the pictures are more then a bit creepy looking.

She just needs to look like this

[Reply #313 on:]

That looks like a Super Soaker that she's brandishing. Fu-tu-ristic.

Also, "Insane in the Mainframe" was just on TV. Now there's an episode that handles Fry and Leela's relationship in a very nice, low-key way. I'm hoping for a similarly light touch to be used in "Cold Warriors," which seems to me as if it may have shippy leanings.

[Reply #314 on:]

Also, "Insane in the Mainframe" was just on TV. Now there's an episode that handles Fry and Leela's relationship in a very nice, low-key way.

Beep!

[Reply #315 on:]

Also, "Insane in the Mainframe" was just on TV. Now there's an episode that handles Fry and Leela's relationship in a very nice, low-key way. I'm hoping for a similarly light touch to be used in "Cold Warriors," which seems to me as if it may have shippy leanings.

Negative, bossy meat creature!

I agree, though. Plus it was really clear where their relationship was, something I still have hope we will achieve again!

[Reply #316 on:]

That looks like a Super Soaker that she's brandishing. Fu-tu-ristic.

Also, "Insane in the Mainframe" was just on TV. Now there's an episode that handles Fry and Leela's relationship in a very nice, low-key way. I'm hoping for a similarly light touch to be used in "Cold Warriors," which seems to me as if it may have shippy leanings.

To be fair, super soakers have a LOT more in common with classic raygun gothic then actual weaponry does.  If you could get a supersoaker remade in chrome or something, it would look pretty accurate for a Futuarama weapon.

[Reply #317 on:]

Also, "Insane in the Mainframe" was just on TV. Now there's an episode that handles Fry and Leela's relationship in a very nice, low-key way.

It kinda works in "Insane in the Mainframe", because it is part of what drives the plot, but without being obstructive or obnoxious.  The episode seems not to be about Fry and Leela, but as if the writers suddenly remembered.  That's a far better perspective than to start by thinking, 'let's make a Fry-Leela episode, but make it low key', that ain't never gonna work.

[Reply #318 on:]

Yeah, that's what I mean. Fry and Leela's relationship is something that is able to be explored organically because the nature of the episode (Fry is going craaazy) demands a certain level of emotion, and requires someone (in this case, Leela) to be in Fry's corner trying to defend and help him. It's not one of those "This Week Fry Tries to Make Leela Love Him" episodes, and I think that's why the shippiness in that episode comes off as very sweet and unforced. I think "Cold Warriors" might have certain aspects (of the Fry-being-in-trouble variety) that might lend themselves nicely to some Fry/Leela interactions on-par with what was seen in "Insane in the Mainframe."

[Reply #319 on:]

It does seem promising that Leela is the only one who seems horrified by the prospect of Fry being hooked up to that flesh shredding machine.   Even Fry seems pretty nonchalant about it.