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Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #120 on: 07-18-2011 01:50 »

Yes, I often wish you would go far away sometimes

Ugh, how I hate Fry and Leela in "The Beast With a Billion Backs." It just seems like such a step backward after the events of "Bender's Big Score." At the very least, I don't think the writers have gone that far in season six, in terms of Fry and Leela being indifferent to one another's existences, or even out-and-out hostile.

I disagree that the writers have abandoned Fry and Leela as a couple; I just think they're too scared of letting go of the jokier, crueler aspects of the characters in favor of developing their relationship in a more serious way. But I agree with leia that we haven't seen anything to contradict Fry and Leela as a couple so far in season 6B (that whole sex-with-the-mayor's-wife incident notwithstanding), so that at least fills me with some hope.
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #121 on: 07-18-2011 01:58 »

I agree with both of you. I HATE BWABB in many ways. It's entertaining, but what it does as far as cannon with the entire series is just so crazy and I'd like to pretend the events in it never happened.

Again, I don't think they have abandoned Fry and Leela completely, but they can't focus on them completely in every episode or only the major shippers would watch, and it would eventually become boring. It also makes all those special moments between them less special, because well it would be happening all the time.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #122 on: 07-18-2011 02:05 »

Yes, I often wish you would go far away sometimes

Ugh, how I hate Fry and Leela in "The Beast With a Billion Backs." It just seems like such a step backward after the events of "Bender's Big Score." At the very least, I don't think the writers have gone that far in season six, in terms of Fry and Leela being indifferent to one another's existences, or even out-and-out hostile.

I disagree that the writers have abandoned Fry and Leela as a couple; I just think they're too scared of letting go of the jokier, crueler aspects of the characters in favor of developing their relationship in a more serious way. But I agree with leia that we haven't seen anything to contradict Fry and Leela as a couple so far in season 6B (that whole sex-with-the-mayor's-wife incident notwithstanding), so that at least fills me with some hope.

Oh wait, that was Beast with a Billion Backs?  I think I got it confused with one of this run.  Well, my other complaints still stand!  :P
Leela annoyed me a lot in that episode.  I'm mainly just happy to see Fry get somewhere with a girl, rather then hopelessly pining after Leela.  

But the thing is Gorky, that's what I don't get.  A major part of Amy's personality was that prior to settling down with Kif, she was a complete slut, and a lot of jokes were milked out of how much casual sex she had.  Now she's in a long distance relationship, she's not bed hopping, (and for a long time, it was unclear if Kif was even capable of having sex with Amy), and now that part of her personality is replaced with pure kinkyness.  They could easily make Fry and Leela a couple, without it upsetting the core dynamic.   Fry could still do stupid things that would make Leela consider dumping him, and he could still do crazy but sweet things to show how much he loves her.    TLPJF still works, whether Fry is her boyfriend or not.  The point is, he's going through billions of eons, so he can make the woman he loves feel happy on her birthday.  He can still be her boyfriend to do that.
winna

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« Reply #123 on: 07-18-2011 02:05 »

I agree with everyone about how they're treating the Fry/Leela relationship so far.  They were doing so well in 6a by just adding subtle nods to everything.

I really liked BWABB btw.... I think it was great for canon and made sense how everyone reacted about everything.... because it was rather realistic.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #124 on: 07-18-2011 02:10 »

I think BWABB was easily the funniest of the movies.  Interesting plot, had genuine drama, and it didn't take itself too seriously.  Plus it set up the events for Wild Green Yonder Very Well.   Kif and Amy reuniting had a lot more emotional impact, after Zapp took advantage of her when she was extremely emotionally vunerable.
winna

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« Reply #125 on: 07-18-2011 02:12 »

Oh yeah.... I forgot about Bender's Big Score.... but to be honest, I didn't like that one much when it came out.  Yeah BWaBB shit all over that.... it's unfortunate, because the important details in both of those pieces were really good and worth keeping.... unfortunately throwing them together barely makes sense.
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #126 on: 07-18-2011 02:15 »

I think BWABB was easily the funniest of the movies.  Interesting plot, had genuine drama, and it didn't take itself too seriously.  Plus it set up the events for Wild Green Yonder Very Well.   Kif and Amy reuniting had a lot more emotional impact, after Zapp took advantage of her when she was extremely emotionally vunerable.

I totally disagree. I think BWABB and BG were both funny, but I feel as far as the entire Futurama series Storyline goes, it should skip over both of those and just have ITWGY right after BBS. That makes a lot more sense...
Also, I LOVE BBS
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #127 on: 07-18-2011 02:26 »
« Last Edit on: 07-18-2011 02:28 »

I think BWABB was easily the funniest of the movies.

Agreed. It just bugs me because of how it handles Fry and Leela's relationship, but since the writers eventually resolve it (kind of) in "Into the Wild Green Yonder," I can forgive TBWaBB for the shoddy characterization.

But the thing is Gorky, that's what I don't get.  A major part of Amy's personality was that prior to settling down with Kif, she was a complete slut, and a lot of jokes were milked out of how much casual sex she had.  Now she's in a long distance relationship, she's not bed hopping, (and for a long time, it was unclear if Kif was even capable of having sex with Amy), and now that part of her personality is replaced with pure kinkyness.  They could easily make Fry and Leela a couple, without it upsetting the core dynamic.   Fry could still do stupid things that would make Leela consider dumping him, and he could still do crazy but sweet things to show how much he loves her.    TLPJF still works, whether Fry is her boyfriend or not.  The point is, he's going through billions of eons, so he can make the woman he loves feel happy on her birthday.  He can still be her boyfriend to do that.

I totally agree with this, too. I don't think it is impossible to write Fry and Leela in a relationship and have it still be compelling. Like leia says, their relationship doesn't have to dominate the series (I don't think even the most ardent shippers want Futurama to devolve into some soapish romantic comedy). I think the writers have for some reason built it up in their heads as this Terrible Thing if Fry and Leela are put in a canonical, exclusive relationship--but, since it has worked with Amy and Kif (though, admittedly, they are two supporting characters and their relationship was treated somewhat cavalierly in "The Beast With a Billion Backs" and "Proposition Infinity"), I agree with you that there is no reason for the writers to be so wishy-washy about Fry and Leela. (I've ranted about this elsewhere--in the last shipping thread, perhaps--but basically it seems to me that, at this point, the decision to put Fry and Leela in a relationship is a completely arbitrary one. The writers only have to acknowledge the relationship in episodes that are meant to be shippy, and can let it remain in the background in any other episode. Nothing spectacular has to change.
lilkitten29

Starship Captain
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« Reply #128 on: 07-18-2011 04:40 »

I agree that not every episode has to have Fry/Leela stuff.....but I'm kinda disappointed that so far in these past few episodes there was nothing. 6a did so well with their relationship....actually when I look back, there were a lot of Fry/Leela moments in 6a..I guess I just got spoiled.
I don't wanna wait until Overclockwise to see some Fry/Leela stuff..........but I guess in a way it's fine. In the original series all the Fry/Leela shippy episodes were all pretty spread apart, so I guess I shouldn't complain. smile
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #129 on: 07-18-2011 05:01 »
« Last Edit on: 07-18-2011 05:02 by SpaceGoldfishfromWazn »

I dont get why people think it will dominate the series.   It just means Leela will have more reason to be exasperated when Fry acts like a slob with no direction in life, or oversleeps on her birthday.   They already bicker like a married couple anyway, it just means they might cuddle on the sofa or go see a movie together, or argue some more sometimes.  They've already said I love you.  Its not copyrighted like Happy Birthday, so the writers wont have to pay someone everytime Fry says I love you to Leela and vice versa (you don't have copyright Mom, you're not even born yet!)

The whole Law and Oracle thing could have just been Leela being depressed that her boyfriend is a delivery boy with no ambition in life, rather then just lusting over a man in uniform.  Law and Oracle, like most of this current season seemed to push their relationship back to series 2 or 3.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #130 on: 07-18-2011 05:08 »

I think BWABB was easily the funniest of the movies.
Agreed.

Yo, Gorks. Would it surprise you to learn that I agree with you and SpaceGoldfishfromWazn for a lot of the first half of the film, considering the rants I wrote (and you kindly responded to) about it?
winna

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« Reply #131 on: 07-18-2011 05:50 »

As I said in another thread, the writers were doing a really good job of portraying Fry and Leela in a relationship in 6A with the subtle nods to the fact that they were in a relationship; then they add a few serious interactions with them ala Late Phillip J Fry and Prisoner of Benda.  They messed up with ignorant lines like Leela's, "I wish I had a man." but otherwise it was solidly what I'd want.  I just want them to hold hands, or cuddle on the couch once or twice.

However, there in lies the problem, and it's the same reason they frivolously throw around Kif & Amy's relationship.  Sitcoms are usually powered by sexual tension... monogomous relationships kill a lot of possibilities for episode ideas and story arc building.  Think about how many episodes have just been based around Fry being romantically involved with one random person or another.  So, if we settle with 4 of our generally main cast being in serious non-breaking relationships, are we a mature enough audience to still be entertained by whatever adventures they engage under those rules?  Let's also be honest.... there aren't a whole lot of other candidates for relationships we might want to actually see in the show.... roll eyes
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #132 on: 07-18-2011 06:48 »
« Last Edit on: 07-18-2011 06:57 »

Think about how many episodes have just been based around Fry being romantically involved with one random person or another.

It's 7. 207, 211, 212, 219, 315, 319, and BWABB (I'm leaving out 301 since Fry having sex with the Amazons wasn't his choice and was not the plot). Those are the episodes where Fry's relationship with a woman other than Leela has been relevant to the plot (rather than being a side joke). Notably, 4 of the 7 are from S2 (generally considered the most comically-focused and least character-focused season), so the writers composing "Fry goes out with some chick to negative repercussions" stories almost completely dropped off after S2 to little complaint (BWABB actually received much complaint for pairing Fry with Not Leelas).

Sitcoms are usually powered by sexual tension

This is blatantly false. Many sitcoms had little to no sexual tension powering their stories. Show me "powering" sexual tension in The Brady Bunch, All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, 30 Rock, Arrested Development, or any other number of successful (critically, commercially, or both) sitcoms (Futurama itself even). There are undoubtibly sitcoms that had sexual tension or relationships powering storylines (like Three's Company, Cheers, Friends, Community, and even some of the previously mentioned), but the number of episodes where those things were a focus pale in comparison to the number of episodes where it's some other comic situation like mistaken identity, needing to raise money to pay bills, a bully, or any other sitcom story trope. Situation Comedy. That's what Sitcom is short for and that's what it's lifeblood is. There are undoubtedly more situations to mine for comedy that don't have to do with romantic relationships than ones that do.

monogomous relationships kill a lot of possibilities for episode ideas and story arc building. So, if we settle with 4 of our generally main cast being in serious non-breaking relationships, are we a mature enough audience to still be entertained by whatever adventures they engage under those rules?  Let's also be honest.... there aren't a whole lot of other candidates for relationships we might want to actually see in the show.... roll eyes

The audiences maturity isn't an issue. It's the writers ability to craft humorous stories, stories that the audience accepts, that is. As long as the writers can write satisfying stories with lots of good jokes, the audience (us) doesn't really care what the stories are. However, Futurama has already proved adept at growing its characters (and their romantic entanglements) and more importantly having a good chunk of the audience care that it respects the growth they've shown. Thus as long as the writers can keep satisfying chunk B while continuing to stimulate majority (mostly the entire audience) chunk A, then there is no need to push the characters into new relationships for stories (as my previous two paragraphs make case, there are far fewer attempts at outside relationships since S2 to little/no detriment to the show and most sitcoms function without developing romantic stories anyway).
winna

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« Reply #133 on: 07-18-2011 10:24 »

I guess I should have been a little more specific in that there are different comedic shows that abide by different sets of rules.  Comedies with families as the main characters, specifically with a husband and wife couple as the focus are not powered by sexual tension.  Comedies with single individuals when the show starts off usually are, and when those characters becomes locked down in a relationship it spells the end of the series. 

Your examples list could have been a bit better btw; Seinfeld and Arrested Development certainly had their share of relationships that were used merely to facilitate as stories.  However, your argument is well made, and I cannot deny your research off the top of my head, so you receive my kudos.  Personally, I don't think having Leela and Fry be concretely in a relationship instead of the wishy washy will not spell the deathknell of the series.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #134 on: 07-18-2011 14:41 »

Yo, Gorks. Would it surprise you to learn that I agree with you and SpaceGoldfishfromWazn for a lot of the first half of the film, considering the rants I wrote (and you kindly responded to) about it?

Why, sir, I am impossible to surprise! (But I do remember you saying in the aforementioned rants/debates that Beast is a funny movie in its first half, or something along those lines. Why that occupies space in my brain, I have no idea, but there you have it.)

I dont get why people think it will dominate the series.

I don't think that; I think the writers think that. They must be afraid of pursuing the relationship in earnest for some reason, or else they'd have no reason to be so wishy-washy--because, like you say, nothing about the show has to change much if Fry and Leela are dating.

The whole Law and Oracle thing could have just been Leela being depressed that her boyfriend is a delivery boy with no ambition in life, rather then just lusting over a man in uniform.  Law and Oracle, like most of this current season seemed to push their relationship back to series 2 or 3.

But Leela having the hots for a guy in uniform is no more offensive to me than Fry considering eating and fertilizing with the all-women universe in "The Late Philip J. Fry," or wanting to make a girly calendar in "Neutopia." It's not like Leela's the one who gave Smitty a big ol' kiss on the mouth--Amy did it (which bugs me, too, albeit not much), and Leela then conferred with her about it like a giddy girl. And saying that she loves a man in uniform doesn't mean that she doesn't love Fry--it just means that his uniform doesn't do it for her like a police uniform would. Fry just happened to take this comment--in addition to his existing dissatisfaction with his job, and what he heard Smitty saying about joining the police force--and chose to quit Planet Express to become a cop. Leela didn't force him to do it, and Fry didn't spend a scene looking all sad and mopey and saying, "Why doesn't my quasi-girlfriend love me?"--he did it because, yes, maybe Leela would like it, but mostly he did it for himself.

"Law and Oracle" didn't need to bring Fry and Leela's relationship into the mix to be effective, and in fact if the focus had shifted too much towards the ship, the episode would have seemed rushed and aimless. As it was, I think L&O was one of the most well-paced episodes of this production season--in addition to being one of the funniest. There are other episodes--"Attack of the Killer App" and "Lrrreconcilable Ndndifferences" come to mind--that weren't hurt by having shippy elements (in fact, I think LrrrNdnd is a lot more enjoyable for including the Fry/Leela comic book subplot, which is mostly lighthearted and plain ol' cute). But certainly those two episodes didn't need those shippy elements to work (the writers just happened to work them in gracefully), and an episode like "A Clockwork Origin" would have had to stop dead in its tracks in its second half (when Fry and then Leela are captured by dinosaurs and cavemen, respectively) if the writers wanted to acknowledge that the characters might be bummed out about their other half being taken away. Choosing not the play up the relationship is not the same thing as ignoring it...unless the writers for whatever reason choose to insert lines like, "I may not have a man" or "It sure was nice of the mayor's wife to have sex with me," which are just pointless and confusing.
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #135 on: 07-19-2011 21:19 »


Show me "powering" sexual tension in The Brady Bunch, All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, 30 Rock, Arrested Development, or any other number of successful (critically, commercially, or both) sitcoms

Every other episode of Arrested Development was about Michael and his latest love-interest. Not to mention the George Michael / Maeby subplot that ran through the entire series.
And all the subplots involving Lindsay and Tobias with their marriage problems (including all that open marriage stuff). And the Lucille / George / Oscar love triangle. And the Buster / Lucille II stuff.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #136 on: 07-19-2011 21:52 »

So what you're saying is...not much?
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #137 on: 07-21-2011 06:57 »

Seinfeld was definitely based around sexual tension. They were always having sex with each other and getting different boyfriends/girlfriends every week.

I think Futurama is different though. They can make jokes out of other things. Fry's relationships with women is not as funny as some of their other stories.

The point is...How Hermes Requesitioned his Groove Back is nowhere near as good as something like The Sting. Futurama is much better when they're together.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #138 on: 07-21-2011 07:10 »
« Last Edit on: 07-21-2011 07:14 by SpaceGoldfishfromWazn »

One thing I've noticed is that when Leela hooks up with some asshole, it causes Fry to step up his game, and try and become a better person for her and be worthy of her love.   Leela goes off with some jerk, flaunts about how she's going to bang him that night, and then lets Fry get fined for being unable to clean up her pet?  Fry still gives up his chance of having his old life back, not because he wants to save the universe, but because he loves Leela so damn much. 

When Fry gets over Leela treating him with contempt most of the time, moves on and gets a girlfriend, Leela mostly sulks and pouts and acts jealous until things go sour.  (If she has any reaction at all, she didn't really care when Fry and Amy became a real couple instead of a fake one).  I would like to see an episode like the Sting where it's Fry who is the pursued (so to speak), and Leela realizes she has to be the one who has to better herself to be worthy of his love, or to put herself on the line for him.  Their relationship still feels one sided, and there are times when Fry's devotion of her could be viewed as creepy/pathetic, since Leela still doesn't reciprocate all that much.   Leela's a strong woman, and is strong enough to stand up for what she wants/be a better person for the man she loves, or at the least, does something to make him happy.  They may be together, but it's still all take and no give with them.  

Which is why the Sting works so well (even if its platonic rather then romantic), and the stalagmite scene in The Late Philip J Fry (even if the main focus was Fry wanting to make Leela happy on her birthday.)   I would like to see more episodes like those two.  I think it would add more dimension to their relationship, and not have Fry being treated like an expendable possession rather then her boyfriend.  C'mon, he doesn't need any more demanding posssessive harpies like Michelle. :P
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #139 on: 07-21-2011 13:51 »

Which is why the Sting works so well (even if its platonic rather then romantic), and the stalagmite scene in The Late Philip J Fry (even if the main focus was Fry wanting to make Leela happy on her birthday.)   I would like to see more episodes like those two.  I think it would add more dimension to their relationship, and not have Fry being treated like an expendable possession rather then her boyfriend.  C'mon, he doesn't need any more demanding posssessive harpies like Michelle. :P

I totally agree. Part of what's so great about "The Sting," like you say, is how the POV lies with Leela; we are privy to her thoughts about Fry's death, and witness how she basically goes crazy over the thought of having killed him. It's the only episode I can think of where the relationship is really presented from Leela's viewpoint, and that's a nice change of pace.

Though I agree with you generally about Fry's pursuing Leela, trying to "make" her love him, and occasionally coming off as a bit stalker-y, I do think that "Into the Wild Green Yonder" does a good job of breaking the mold. Fry is not overtly pursuing Leela in any romantic sense (that is, he's not helping her save the violet dwarf star in an attempt to win her love), and the climax of the movie hinges on Leela trusting Fry enough to give him the bomb, even though she has become a fugitive, a jail-breaker, and a hooker to stop him. Leela's inner conflict throughout the movie is, in fact, reconciling Fry's seemingly evil actions with the Fry she knows--and, in the end, she decides that Fry has to be doing all of this stuff for some greater purpose. So, Leela trusts not only Fry's love in her, but also her own feelings for him, enough to give him that bomb and potentially have everything, uh, blow up in her face.

That said, I think an episode where Leela has to win Fry's affection in some way would be interesting to see, and it would certainly deepen both the relationship and Leela's character--but I wouldn't count on it. Futurama is written by a bunch of guys, and it makes more sense for them to stick with the male viewpoint when it comes to any relationship. I don't know how willing they are to leave their comfort zone (though, in addition to ItWGY, they kind of showed Leela doing something to win/repel Fry's affections in "The Prisoner of Benda"; what was nice about that episode, ship-wise, is that Fry and Leela were both concerned about how the other person perceived them. It wasn't just Fry trying to repent for making one offhanded remark about Leela's eye and then Leela being pissy about it. That would have been no fun to watch).
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #140 on: 07-21-2011 16:51 »

I would quite like that, but at the moment, Fry/Leela seem to not be in a good place, since its mostly them ignoring eachother and bickering, peppered with very confusing and contradictory lines and behaviour.  For the most part, I think if Fry and Leela are dating, its in a bad place where the minute Fry says or does something Leela doesn't like, it will all be over, no matter how petty it is.

Don't they have any female writers though?   Or haven't any of them had girlfriends? 

I thought the stalagmite thing in LPJF was fantastic, since it was a perfect response to Fry's star message.  It was scientific, straight to the point, unsentimental without being cold, but genuinely touching.  I'd like to see more moments like that.

I did have an idea for a B plot though involving Leela.  I was thinking maybe it could be Fry's birthday, and even though she wants to get him something useful or grown up (like a new watch or some fancy cologne), she ends up buying him what he really wants: some overpriced limited edition action figure, and ends up going crazy to get it for him (fighting with other nerds, bidding until 3 in the morning on ebay).  If I ever work for Futurama, I am totally writing that b plot up. :P
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #141 on: 07-21-2011 16:52 »

Who would it be an action figure of, do you think?
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #142 on: 07-21-2011 17:07 »

Who would it be an action figure of, do you think?

Probably from one of his favorite comics or tv shows.  It could even be one of his favorite shows/comics from the 20th century, though that might make it too hard to believe.  (Unless it turns out a box of them were dumped in the desert in a parody of the Atari ET/Star Wars figure scenarios).  Either way it should be rare and pricey and show the childish side of Fry's nature that Leela dislikes, but she still gets it for him because she wants to make him happy.
Aki

Professor
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« Reply #143 on: 07-21-2011 17:58 »

I like it.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #144 on: 07-21-2011 18:19 »

That is a really great premise, SpaceGoldfish. I would love to see the writers do something like that with Fry and Leela's relationship, but I still don't think we'll ever see Leela in the role of Caring and Considerate Girlfriend. I don't mean to say that she's an uncaring or inconsiderate person, just that the writers have gotten a lot of mileage out of playing up Fry's sweet-hearted gestures and lovable loser personality, and they're probably not willing to give up stories that emphasize those aspects of his character. I don't think it's about the writers not understanding women, or even the lack of women on the writing staff (Patric Verrone's wife wrote "The Duh-Vinci Code," but I think that was freelance; someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the writing staff is all guys); I think Futurama is just a show that's told from a predominantly male perspective by design, with Fry being our viewpoint character and our twentieth-century avatar in the year 3000.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #145 on: 07-21-2011 18:26 »

That's true, but I think a lot of people could relate to the story, because it is quite universal (who doesn't put themselves through hell sometimes to make their boyfriend/girlfriend happy?), and Leela's personality would prevent the story from being too cloying (Leela's has a very sentimental, tender side, but its rarely seen) and I could see her complaining and sighing throughout the whole thing.   I don't see the writers doing it, but I think I will try and turn it into a fan comic.  : )  I do find it annoying that its a mostly male perspective, because Futurama has an extremely high female fanbase (even among girls who hate sci fi.)
Aki

Professor
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« Reply #146 on: 07-21-2011 18:27 »

You miss the major premise here: guys don't have feelings.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #147 on: 07-21-2011 18:32 »

You miss the major premise here: guys don't have feelings.

Actually...

We have two.  Three if you count hunger.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #148 on: 07-21-2011 18:32 »

I don't see the writers doing it, but I think I will try and turn it into a fan comic.  : )

Please do. You mentioned before that you're an aspiring writer, right? I think that could turn out really well. smile

Quote
I do find it annoying that its a mostly male perspective, because Futurama has an extremely high female fanbase (even among girls who hate sci fi.)

Speaking as a girl who hates math and science and really doesn't read much sci-fi or watch Star Trek or Star Wars or anything else Star-related, I agree with this frustration. I do appreciate that the writers have gone as far as they have to develop Leela's character: sad orphan upbringing, desire to be loved that manifests itself in dating assholes, soft side for goofbags, ass-kicking abilities honed in kung-fu classes taught by a misogynist. But I feel like, in terms of shippy stories, Leela's the character who's always shortchanged and made to look like a bitch--whereas Fry comes out looking alternately like the hero or the sad sack who we really ought to pity, because he tries so hard. This is a fair interpretation of Fry, and I love his character; I just wish that the writers would show us those sides of Leela that make her seem worthy of Fry's love in the first place. I know she's worth the effort Fry's expending, but the writers don't go out of their way often enough to show that, I think.

You miss the major premise here: guys don't have feelings.

Zoidberg: Is it love when you care about a female for reasons beyond mating?
Fry: Nope. Must be some weird alien emotion.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #149 on: 07-21-2011 18:37 »

Exactly Gorky!  We are supposed to root for Fry as the hero, whose heroic feats and acts of kindness will win him the heart of the girl... except Leela still turns him down even after he saves her life on Valentine's Day or writes an opera about her (and publically ruins himself to stop her being kidnapped), or sacrifices his life to save hers many times.  We love Fry, but there are times when its hard to swallow how he is still trying to win her heart, even after... hell just turning someone down after ONE of those feats is a sign that it will never work out. 

Fry's a hero, Leela's a heroine.  She should get the chance to be the heroine in her own love story, rather then just being the disinterested target of Fry's dogged devotion. 
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #150 on: 07-21-2011 18:44 »

Fry's a hero, Leela's a heroine.  She should get the chance to be the heroine in her own love story, rather then just being the disinterested target of Fry's dogged devotion. 

I completely agree. It made sense when the writers were first exploring the possibility of Fry and Leela as a couple; an episode like "Parasites Lost" ends with you having a good sense of how devoted Fry is to Leela (and how he's willing to better himself to be with her), while making Leela look a bit callous and cold for rejecting Fry after he gets rid of the worms (and I still shudder whenever I think of her telling him that she loves what he's become. That's harsh). Which is fine, because (like I've said before) I appreciate how introducing the shippy elements to the series went a long way to developing Fry into something beyond this pathetic, lazy, selfish guy whose defining feature was that he was a Regular Joe from the twentieth century.

But, as the series progresses, and we have it nailed into our noggins repeatedly that Fry is a sweet guy and he would do anything for Leela, it only makes sense for the writers to begin to explore how Leela feels about all this. "Time Keeps on Slipping" is a bit better with how it handles the ship (Leela at least attempts to hash out her feelings about Fry with Zoidberg), and "The Why of Fry" shows how Leela can be made happy by someone like Fry (in fact, all of the Leela-dates-someone-else stories end on Fry/Leela shippy notes), and "The Sting" is just brilliant in how it deals with Leela's feelings for Fry. I know the writers are capable of writing Leela with the same sensitivity they employ when writing Fry--it just seems like they're not inclined to do so just yet. Which is fine for now, but I'd like to see one episode where Leela is doing a bit of the chasing before the series ends. A girl can dream, I guess.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #151 on: 07-21-2011 18:50 »
« Last Edit on: 07-21-2011 18:54 by SpaceGoldfishfromWazn »

Yeah!  I really hate how Leela makes Fry a better person, but Fry just brings out Leela's negative qualities.   Most of the time, she just comes across as a needlessly cruel, tactless bitch.  (I mean seriously, would you tell the guy whose in love with you that you are going to sleep with your date tonight, and ask him to clean up your pet's turds so you can enjoy your nasty no no without worrying about your pet's comfort?  That's just cruel.)   I mean we are always shown that Leela is a caring, compassionate person, but it comes off as annoying that she shows an eyeball biting parasitic worm or an endangered species killing machine more affection then she does to Fry.  
The way the relationship is written sometimes, it just makes me think: "Fry deserves Leela, but does Leela deserve Fry?" I think there should be more episodes like the Sting for a change, because those rare moments actually say "Yes she does" for once, instead of just portraying her as an callous shrew who doesn't deserve a guy as sweet as Fry, but we are expected to root for them for some reason.  Everyone worth their salt in creative writing says: "Show, don't tell."   So we need some more showing, and less telling.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #152 on: 07-21-2011 18:56 »

You miss the major premise here: guys don't have feelings.

That hurts my supposedly nonexistent feelings! cry
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #153 on: 07-21-2011 18:57 »

You miss the major premise here: guys don't have feelings.

That hurts my supposedly nonexistent feelings! cry

But you're not in any physical pain, the only pain a man can understand. 
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #154 on: 07-21-2011 18:57 »

Yeah!  I really hate how Leela makes Fry a better person, but Fry just brings out Leela's negative qualities.   Most of the time, she just comes across as a needlessly cruel, tactless bitch.  (I mean seriously, would you tell the guy whose in love with you that you are going to sleep with your date tonight, and ask him to clean up your pet's turds so you can enjoy your nasty no no without worrying about your pet's comfort?  That's just cruel.)   I mean we are always shown that Leela is a caring, compassionate person, but it comes off as annoying that she shows an eyeball biting parasitic worm or an endangered species killing machine more affection then she does to Fry. 
The way the relationship is written sometimes, it just makes me think: "Fry deserves Leela, but does Leela deserve Fry?" I think there should be more episodes like the Sting for a change, because those rare moments actually say "Yes she does" for once, instead of just portraying her as an callous shrew who doesn't deserve a guy as sweet as Fry, but we are expected to root for them for some reason.  Everyone worth their salt in creative writing says: "Show, don't tell."   So we need some more showing, and less telling.

I try to hand-wave some of Leela's more bitchy behavior towards Fry by saying that she doesn't take Fry's feelings for her all that seriously; she knows that, in most other aspects of life, he's kind of cavalier and impulsive and easily-distracted (and I could go on), so it makes a degree of sense for Leela to question the purity of Fry's love for her. Or at least it makes sense in "Parasites Lost," which is the first truly shippy episode. After he stayed beside her bed for two weeks in "The Sting," though, I find it hard to believe that Leela could still be questioning Fry's devotion to her. I also think that, if a guy was constantly talking about his ability to make me love him, I would think he was being a little immature (and faintly creepy); you can't force someone to fall in love with you, no matter how much you love the other person.

That said, I don't blame her for wanting to be careful with Fry. Leela's upbringing kind of dictates that she be leery of men in general, but especially men who don't meet the unrealistic criteria she has for a potential suitor. I do blame the writers for not doing enough in terms of developing her character and making it clearer to the audience that Leela isn't an unfeeling, cold-hearted person, but rather a guarded woman capable of great warmth (even towards Fry, on rare occasions) and most definitely worth all that Fry has gone through in order to win her affections.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #155 on: 07-21-2011 19:01 »

But you're not in any physical pain, the only pain a man can understand.

I must be flawed. confused
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #156 on: 07-21-2011 19:05 »

Yeah!  I really hate how Leela makes Fry a better person, but Fry just brings out Leela's negative qualities.   Most of the time, she just comes across as a needlessly cruel, tactless bitch.  (I mean seriously, would you tell the guy whose in love with you that you are going to sleep with your date tonight, and ask him to clean up your pet's turds so you can enjoy your nasty no no without worrying about your pet's comfort?  That's just cruel.)   I mean we are always shown that Leela is a caring, compassionate person, but it comes off as annoying that she shows an eyeball biting parasitic worm or an endangered species killing machine more affection then she does to Fry. 
The way the relationship is written sometimes, it just makes me think: "Fry deserves Leela, but does Leela deserve Fry?" I think there should be more episodes like the Sting for a change, because those rare moments actually say "Yes she does" for once, instead of just portraying her as an callous shrew who doesn't deserve a guy as sweet as Fry, but we are expected to root for them for some reason.  Everyone worth their salt in creative writing says: "Show, don't tell."   So we need some more showing, and less telling.

I try to hand-wave some of Leela's more bitchy behavior towards Fry by saying that she doesn't take Fry's feelings for her all that seriously; she knows that, in most other aspects of life, he's kind of cavalier and impulsive and easily-distracted (and I could go on), so it makes a degree of sense for Leela to question the purity of Fry's love for her. Or at least it makes sense in "Parasites Lost," which is the first truly shippy episode. After he stayed beside her bed for two weeks in "The Sting," though, I find it hard to believe that Leela could still be questioning Fry's devotion to her. I also think that, if a guy was constantly talking about his ability to make me love him, I would think he was being a little immature (and faintly creepy); you can't force someone to fall in love with you, no matter how much you love the other person.

That said, I don't blame her for wanting to be careful with Fry. Leela's upbringing kind of dictates that she be leery of men in general, but especially men who don't meet the unrealistic criteria she has for a potential suitor. I do blame the writers for not doing enough in terms of developing her character and making it clearer to the audience that Leela isn't an unfeeling, cold-hearted person, but rather a guarded woman capable of great warmth (even towards Fry, on rare occasions) and most definitely worth all that Fry has gone through in order to win her affections.

True, Leela is a pretty insecure person, and she has been let down a lot of times, both romantically and platonically.  But now she really has no reason to question Fry's devotion to her.  (I mean she has made it clear she returns his feelings for him, so... why?  I think this is more of a fault of the writers, then it is Leela's, since both her and Fry have been acting out of character, so they can keep them in relationship limbo). 

At least we haven't seen Leela acting outright cruel, like she has been in response to some of Fry's advances.  Fry's devotion could be considered doglike/stalkerish/pathetic/creepy in a less lovable character though.  It certainly wouldn't be considered healthy in real life.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #157 on: 07-22-2011 18:27 »

Quite curious to see which episode is going to be the first Fry/Leela centric one of this run. I suspected Yo Leela Leela or Law and Oracle to be possible contenders but, as such, nothing yet. Don't think it'll crop up in All the President's Heads either.

I'd be surprised if it's only the focus in Overclockwise but I can't really think of many other potential contenders out of the ones we've got left. Cold Warriors perhaps? Fry Am the Egg Man?
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #158 on: 07-23-2011 00:45 »

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit of it in 'Cold Warriors' or 'Fry Am the Egg Man'. The former because Leela is the only character we know to be quarantined so far (if it's just her, then Fry will no doubt be the only one who bothers to come and see her every day, etc... but I think it's more likely it'll be the entire crew).

'Fry Am the Egg Man' will probably see Leela giving Fry some sort of condolences when he inevitably realises he has to give up Mr. Peppy -I think it's likely that some of their relationship might come through there.


'Overclockwise' is the only sure thing though.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #159 on: 07-23-2011 01:31 »
« Last Edit on: 07-23-2011 01:32 »

It is a little weird that there were at least four episodes last season that dealt with Fry and Leela's relationship in a significant way ("Rebirth," "The Late Philip J. Fry," "The Prisoner of Benda," and "The Mutants Are Revolting"), three more that included some aspect of their relationship as a side-plot ("In-A-Gadda-Da-Leela," "Attack of the Killer App," and "Lrrreconcilable Ndndifferences"), and one that made an oblique reference to the ostensible Relationship Upgrade ("The Duh-Vinci Code")--yet none of the episodes so far this season have made use of the ship. (That said, I did enjoy Leela kissing Fry's forehead before going up to accept her Young People's Choice Award in last night's episode.) I'm not really bothered by the lack of shippiness--I just find it odd that the writers seem to have front-loaded the season with a decent number of shippy episodes, only to leave us with no significant Fry/Leela stories in the second half.

I can't wait for "Overclockwise," both because it promises to be shippy and because it will probably be full of sci-fi goodness. I do agree that "Fry Am the Eggman" and "Cold Warriors" might have some shippy elements, but who knows? There could be some shippy stuff in "All the President's Heads" or "Mobius Dick," or even "Reincarnation." I mean, looking at the episode descriptions alone, I wouldn't have thought that "The Prisoner of Benda" or "Lrreconcilable Ndndifferences" would include some Fry/Leela goodness--but, of course, I was pleasantly surprised when the episodes aired and this was the case. So I guess I'm cautiously optimistic about the rest of the season, as far as the potential for shippiness goes.
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