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Author Topic: Worst. Episode. Ever!  (Read 32667 times)
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Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #80 on: 08-06-2009 22:27 »

Two things made that episode for me. Shatner interupting the gameshow to scream Kaaaaahhhhhnnnn! and Zapp being able to out-Shatner Shatner.
dr.bender nye

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #81 on: 08-07-2009 01:42 »

I really liked that one. Like Matt, I've never seen an episode of Star Trek, but I felt like I really knew it in the 21 minutes that I watched.
seattlejohn01

Space Pope
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« Reply #82 on: 08-07-2009 02:07 »

Two things made that episode for me. Shatner interupting the gameshow to scream Kaaaaahhhhhnnnn! and Zapp being able to out-Shatner Shatner.
Add in Shatner doing a spoken word version of "slim shady" (not to mention Bender asking "Uh, can people who hate Star Trek leave?", and Chekov adding "Good question"), and you've got an absolute classic episode.  A total valentine to the trekkers who watch Futurama...
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #83 on: 08-07-2009 02:15 »

Can't believe I forgot the whole Fry/Chekov exchange.

Chekov: "When we woke up, we had these bodies."

Fry: "Say it in Russian!"

Chekov: "Ven ve voke up ve had these wodies."

Fry: "EEEEE! Now say nuclear wessels!"

Chekov: "NO!"

 
seattlejohn01

Space Pope
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« Reply #84 on: 08-07-2009 02:22 »

God, that's such great dialog!
seymor_asses

Crustacean
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« Reply #85 on: 08-07-2009 02:37 »

i guess i did like it when shatner threw that boot. lol "my foot is cold"

I.C. Weiner

Bending Unit
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« Reply #86 on: 08-07-2009 06:31 »

Bender wasting all of the bullets in the machine gun always makes me laugh also.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #87 on: 08-07-2009 06:35 »

I've always felt weird about Where No Fan Has Gone Before. It's funny and a great tribute to Star Trek, but it's never felt like a Futurama episode to me. It's always felt more like Futurama Presents: A Tribute To Star Trek (like a Roast) instead of an actual episode of Futurama. I'm probably alone on that.
I.C. Weiner

Bending Unit
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« Reply #88 on: 08-07-2009 07:13 »

I get what you are saying and I think that may have turned people off to Bender's Game also. For me I never watched or read a lot of sci-fi or participated in RPG's so most of this stuff is new to me and seeing the characters in a new light is fun.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #89 on: 08-07-2009 10:14 »

Off that point, I want to like the second half of BG, but I feel it's neutered by its time and focuses. With only 44 minutes to tell their story, the writers had to squeeze it down to just a few events. I feel the fantasy section of BG could have been good (in the way that Where No Fan Has Gone Before is still good even if you're not a Star Trek fan) if it had been the majority of the movie and had focused on more than LOTR. An "epic" feel is very important to Fantasy and at 44 minutes BG just doesn't have enough time to give off that vibe. The land of Cornwood feels small and cliched. It should have felt huge and grand (with some Futurama twist to it. It doesn't feel like any of it is particularly Futurama).

On the other side, the comedy suffers from not being enough of a parody of Fantasy. It ends up mostly focusing on some basic jokes (sex, gross-out, slapstick), with only a few scraps of original funny jokes about fantasy/DnD filling in the rest. Some things don't even have to do with Fantasy whatsoever (an entire race of creatures based on a Robin Williams character that is an alien and a 3 minute "parody" of late-night/early morning adverts? Why?).

Even when I don't understand the high-brow or referential jokes on Futurama, I still appreciate them later when I understand what they're about (I learned from the commentaries some of the science/computer/math jokes that have appeared on the show and can now appreciate (i.e. laugh at) them). I think the writers made too many concessions to a mythical "average" viewer who wouldn't understand the fantasy/DnD jokes they might have wanted to tell so they held back to not alienate this fictional person. What they don't realize is that everybody has some connection to fantasy (King Arthur is a fantasy story that everybody know, a lot of video games love to use fantasy as part of their worlds (Zelda, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest), the LOTR trilogy popularized it a bit) so everybody would have gotten at least some of the jokes. By going a bit more base with their jokes (sex, gross-out, slapstick) they end up being boring rather than funny. When jokes are made about something specific, they have bite and an audience (maybe even some heart). When they are made base (to appeal to as many as possible), they end up stale and appealing to little (opposite effect (heartless).

As a minor complaint, considering how much the fantasy section focuses on LOTR and basic Fantasy stereotypes over feeling like an actual DnD game, it ends up mildly insulting that the film dedicates itself to Gary Gygax, considering how little it actually lampoons his game. If it should have been dedicated to anybody, it should have been J.R. Tolkien.
Bassoonist

Crustacean
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« Reply #90 on: 08-07-2009 20:19 »

Never been a big fan of "A Leela of Her Own". Really I don't remember anything funny about that episode at all, but that may be just me. I also didn't find the story that great.
Tedward

Professor
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« Reply #91 on: 08-07-2009 22:53 »

Never been a big fan of "A Leela of Her Own". Really I don't remember anything funny about that episode at all, but that may be just me. I also didn't find the story that great.

I'd more or less agree with you. While I think that every episode has some merit and laughs to be had, I'd say that "A Leela of Her Own" is indeed one of the weaker episodes.

Off that point, I want to like the second half of BG, but I feel it's neutered by its time and focuses. With only 44 minutes to tell their story, the writers had to squeeze it down to just a few events. I feel the fantasy section of BG could have been good (in the way that Where No Fan Has Gone Before is still good even if you're not a Star Trek fan) if it had been the majority of the movie and had focused on more than LOTR. An "epic" feel is very important to Fantasy and at 44 minutes BG just doesn't have enough time to give off that vibe. The land of Cornwood feels small and cliched. It should have felt huge and grand (with some Futurama twist to it. It doesn't feel like any of it is particularly Futurama).

On the other side, the comedy suffers from not being enough of a parody of Fantasy. It ends up mostly focusing on some basic jokes (sex, gross-out, slapstick), with only a few scraps of original funny jokes about fantasy/DnD filling in the rest. Some things don't even have to do with Fantasy whatsoever (an entire race of creatures based on a Robin Williams character that is an alien and a 3 minute "parody" of late-night/early morning adverts? Why?).

Even when I don't understand the high-brow or referential jokes on Futurama, I still appreciate them later when I understand what they're about (I learned from the commentaries some of the science/computer/math jokes that have appeared on the show and can now appreciate (i.e. laugh at) them). I think the writers made too many concessions to a mythical "average" viewer who wouldn't understand the fantasy/DnD jokes they might have wanted to tell so they held back to not alienate this fictional person. What they don't realize is that everybody has some connection to fantasy (King Arthur is a fantasy story that everybody know, a lot of video games love to use fantasy as part of their worlds (Zelda, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest), the LOTR trilogy popularized it a bit) so everybody would have gotten at least some of the jokes. By going a bit more base with their jokes (sex, gross-out, slapstick) they end up being boring rather than funny. When jokes are made about something specific, they have bite and an audience (maybe even some heart). When they are made base (to appeal to as many as possible), they end up stale and appealing to little (opposite effect (heartless).

As a minor complaint, considering how much the fantasy section focuses on LOTR and basic Fantasy stereotypes over feeling like an actual DnD game, it ends up mildly insulting that the film dedicates itself to Gary Gygax, considering how little it actually lampoons his game. If it should have been dedicated to anybody, it should have been J.R. Tolkien.


Youíve succeeded in explaining what I donít like about Benderís Game (or the second half anyway, since frankly I donít care too much for the whole movie). It does seem that the writers wrote this movie more to pay homage to their fantasy-loving side instead of just sci-fi, but even so the movie does not do this adequately. Futurama has an excellent variety of joke styles, but for whatever reason the humor in Benderís Game is far too low (such as the much larger than usual amount of sex, gross, and slapstick jokes that you mentioned), random (such as the knife scene), and, as much as it hurts to say it, sloppily written (such as the poorly-done callbacks to previous episodes that, for me anyway, neither do justice to the originals nor add much to this movie).
homerjaysimpson

Space Pope
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« Reply #92 on: 08-08-2009 00:21 »

I never liked the Bend Her episode. It felt like all the characters were off in some way, same with episodes Three Hundred Big Boys and Less Than Hero.
Books

Near Death Star Inhabitant
Urban Legend
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« Reply #93 on: 08-08-2009 00:22 »

same with episodes Three Hundred Big Boys and Less Than Hero.

You are wrong and you should feel bad.
x.Bianca.x

Urban Legend
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« Reply #94 on: 08-08-2009 03:35 »

Second; less than hero was a good episode, three hundred big boys wasn't bad either.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #95 on: 08-08-2009 16:24 »

I continue to be surprised by the number of people who dislike "Less Than Hero." Personally, I think it's one of the funniest episodes of the series. Eh, to each his own, I suppose.

However, I understand hjs's point about how the characters being "off" can ruin an episode, because I attribute my distaste for "Where the Buggalo Roam" to the fact that the three main characters are relegated to bland, supporting status. There's nothing particularly special or funny about them in that episode.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #96 on: 08-08-2009 16:51 »

As a minor complaint, considering how much the fantasy section focuses on LOTR and basic Fantasy stereotypes over feeling like an actual DnD game, it ends up mildly insulting that the film dedicates itself to Gary Gygax, considering how little it actually lampoons his game. If it should have been dedicated to anybody, it should have been J.R. Tolkien.

It was dedicated to Gary Gygax because he had just recently died before the final production of the film.  It was never intended to be dedicated to anyone.

Maybe you should listen to commentaries more often.
Morgan_G19

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #97 on: 08-08-2009 21:48 »

Second; less than hero was a good episode, three hundred big boys wasn't bad either.

My favourite scene in "Three Hundred Big Boys" is when Fry drank his 100th cup of coffee laff
Books

Near Death Star Inhabitant
Urban Legend
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« Reply #98 on: 08-08-2009 21:50 »

Second; less than hero was a good episode, three hundred big boys wasn't bad either.
I thought Less Than Hero was your favourite actually.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #99 on: 08-08-2009 21:59 »
« Last Edit on: 08-09-2009 02:15 »

It was dedicated to Gary Gygax because he had just recently died before the final production of the film.  It was never intended to be dedicated to anyone.

Maybe you should listen to commentaries more often.

I haven't listened to the commentary on any of the films more than once (I would watch the commentary the day after I watched a movie for the first time). I guess I must have forgotten this little factoid (that they dedicated it to him because of his death, not that he died. I knew that).

Really, what bugs me about the dedication is how little the fantasy section is any like DnD. Aside from the opening games with the nerds and a few jokes, nothing about the movie really has anything specifically DnD going on. The fantasy section is mostly LOTR fused with generic fantasy stereotypes. I wish the episode was better so the dedication would have been worth it rather than just there because Gygax died.
x.Bianca.x

Urban Legend
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« Reply #100 on: 08-09-2009 03:13 »

Second; less than hero was a good episode, three hundred big boys wasn't bad either.
I thought Less Than Hero was your favourite actually.

It is, I was just pointing out it was a good episode tongue
bendersfender

Crustacean
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« Reply #101 on: 08-10-2009 23:39 »

Worst episode for me would be  s.5 ep.4 a taste of freedom. where zoidberg eats the US flag on freedom day. My personal opinion is that this episode in itself helped Futurama's cancellation. of course there were other reasons... anyway I hate episodes with Nixon's head and this one took the cake. the whole parade  and singing "freedom..freedom,freedom oy"  who ever wrote that joke should have been fired. other things I hate about the ep. the whole invasion of earth  and the episode just felt rushed and very far out there even for futurama. I did not like one joke in that episode and that's very unusual.
also best movie is BWABB.
Marcus
Starship Captain
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« Reply #102 on: 08-10-2009 23:57 »

also best movie is BWABB.
...

I must've been watching a different movie tongue
bendersfender

Crustacean
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« Reply #103 on: 08-11-2009 01:41 »

The plot may have been sub par but the jokes felt like futurama had never left TV.
What was up with benders game I also had a very hard time getting through it. the idea was cool but the plot and jokes were incredibly disappointing.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #104 on: 08-11-2009 01:55 »

The plot may have been sub par but the jokes felt like futurama had never left TV.
What was up with benders game I also had a very hard time getting through it. the idea was cool but the plot and jokes were incredibly disappointing.

Can you upload the version of BWABB you have to YouTube? Because the version I bought had an overwhelming amount of low-brow jokes, few of which were funny past the first viewing, and even fewer of which felt like Futurama. That was only the first half. Nearly no jokes = The second half.
bendersfender

Crustacean
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« Reply #105 on: 08-11-2009 05:10 »
« Last Edit on: 08-11-2009 05:28 »

So what move was your favorite? I pretty much liked all but Benders game.
for those that did not like BWABB try watching it a second time around. That's what I did and I started liking it after that.. and LOL in what possible way could I upload a version to youtube? Unless that was an attempt at humor which I hope it was or else you need to keep updated on how youtube works.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #106 on: 08-11-2009 05:45 »
« Last Edit on: 08-11-2009 05:52 »

Here: http://www.peelified.com/index.php?topic=17266.msg1021789#msg1021789.

That link will take you to my first post in the movie thread. From that point on I post endlessly about my opinions on the various films.

Also, yes, the YouTube line was an attempt at humor. The joke was that I completely disagree with your opinion of BWABB (I saw it three times) and that to say that the jokes of the movie "felt like futurama had never left TV" made me think you were talking about some alternate, good version of that film (which I think is almost a complete piece of garbage) which I would like to see.

Again, I go in-depth of my various opinions of the movies in the movie thread, so read through it and you'll probably find someone with your point of view who I argued with over the flaws (many) and merits (near non-existent) of BWABB. If you do that and you still don't understand why I think that movie is a mess, then I'll argue with you and try to find something I haven't said about it yet.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #107 on: 08-11-2009 06:03 »

I know I've made this comment before (in the movie thread, I think, as a matter of fact), but I did personally find TBWaBB a lot more tolerable when I watched it a second time. That's probably because my initial beef with the movie was with Fry and Leela's relationship, which didn't--and still doesn't--logically follow the events of BBS. But it became a lot easier to accept their antagonism once I saw ItWGY; it handled the ship so gracefully. I guess it's a testament to my lack of standards and ability to suspend disbelief that I can enjoy TBWaBB a hell of a lot, if I look at it in terms of a season two episode (or even as the "I Dated a Robot" to BBS's "Time Keeps on Slipping"--two back-to-back episodes that don't follow logically, ship-wise). It's definitely a funny movie; it's just that the humor (with the exception of all that's done with Bender's jealousy) isn't remotely character-driven, and is admittedly more of the gross-out, raunchy variety.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #108 on: 08-11-2009 06:36 »

I feel the opposite you do, Gorky. The most enjoyment I got out of BWABB was the first time I saw it. I was still completely annoyed at the characterization, plot, joke style, and misuse of the shows various elements (especially during the second half), but damn it all if I didn't laugh quite a bit during the first half (even on my first viewing, the second half lost me (minus Destructor and the Pirate Battle).

My main problem with the jokes on BWABB is that, while they were funny the first time I watched the movie, on subsequent viewings they weren't as funny. I feel bad admitting this, but back when I was a Family Guy fan the chicken fights seemed like some of the funniest stuff I'd ever seen. Laughter isn't able to be reasoned with, and I was laughing hard. However, on subsequent viewing of the episodes featuring them I found that I didn't laugh anymore. Not one bit. That's because that's the type of stuff that's funny one time then loses that comedy later on. That's how I feel about the comedy in BWABB. The first time, the good bits had me in stitches. Watching it again, I'm wondering where the jokes are.

I'll post it. I'm one of those people who the "don't watch it for a while" tactic doesn't work. I never find something as funny as I did the first time. I've gone months without watching episodes of Futurama and managed to remember most of the lines, thus I haven't been able to enjoy the lines the way I did the first time (when are those new episodes coming out). That's part of the reason I enjoy the episodes of Futurama with lasting humor/stories the most. There's certain things that stay funny no matter how much I watch them (I can always pop in 321 or 412, or ITWGY and be entertained).

I feel that BWABB doesn't have much in the way of lasting humor or a good story. It fails on both accounts. The story is schizophrenic and badly written and the humor is too base to last. It was good that one time, and is an abomination every other time.

Also, on that 314/315 point, I've got two counters for that.

One, it's not like Fry had any chance with Leela at that time, chronologically. She had just thought that he had tricked her into marriage and even though she forgave him, all indications to him at that time was to not bother (that sounds a lot meaner/defeatist than I meant it to be). Plus, it's not like it set their relationship backwards. It was a neutral episode (minus that great line: "Let's take Fry to do everything he's ever wanted to do today"/"Everything?"/"Except that."). I mean, the episode made no indication that Lucy Lui Bot was going to be Fry's future. It was clearly a sex toy that he had become a little to attached to. He would have gave it up eventually.

This is in contrast to BWABB, which takes place after BBS (where they left on good terms) and which then writes Colleen/The Beast as serious relationships for Fry, ones so serious he would abandon this Universe for. The Lucy Lui bot may be a hiccup in F/L continuity, but BWABB is a chocked-up lung.

Two, and I feel like a sane man in an insane world for saying this, but am I not supposed to mention that 315 isn't a good episode? I mean, I don't think many on this board would list it as a favorite. Isn't BWABB probably the most-disliked of the movies (generally (although, I guess it trades with BG for some), similar to how 315 probably isn't high on anyones list (where did it place on the last episode survivor)?
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #109 on: 08-11-2009 06:53 »

I don't think TBWaBB necessarily set Fry and Leela's relationship back in an unprecedented way, though. If anything, it had the balls to acknowledge the strangeness of Fry's sudden (and grossly out-of-character) infatuation with Colleen and Yivo. (A fascination which, to be fair, is also apparent (albeit, to a smaller degree) between Fry and Lucy Lui; I definitely recall a few "I love you"s being tossed around in "I Dated a Robot.") Sure, it was in an off-handed way at the end of the movie, but I think Leela admitting to being hurt (or at least pissed) by Fry forgetting about her shows growth in her character; in a way, it's a logical progression from "I won't date Fry because I don't want him" to "I won't date Fry because he doesn't want me." (I know I'm reading waaay between the lines here--sort of playing devil's advocate--but I don't think this interpretation is entirely without merit.)

That said, there's no denying the fact that Fry and Leela are more out-of-character in TBWaBB than they are in "I Dated a Robot." I just think that it's a good example of how the writers--even during the series--would momentarily ignore perceived progression in Fry and Leela's relationship for the sake of a self-indulgent storyline (which is what I see TBWaBB as). I'm not implying that either episode is gold; I'm just saying that there's a parallel that can be drawn.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #110 on: 08-11-2009 07:13 »
« Last Edit on: 08-11-2009 08:03 »

There's nothing wrong with reading waaay too much into the lines. I've done it myself (with an opposite interpretation to yours):

http://www.peelified.com/index.php?topic=17385.msg1037040#msg1037040

http://www.peelified.com/index.php?topic=17385.msg1038717#msg1038717

Also, It's not so much that BWABB set back their relationship, as much as it practically destroys it. It makes no sense following BBS or the series, and it makes even less sense with ITWGY now existing. It treats Fry and Leela as distant coworkers, rather than longtime friends and/or romantically linked people. If (hopefully when) the new seasons manage to handle F/L's relationship well, BWABB will always be the massive blip on the radar (of character continuity? Just go with it). Again, 315 may be a small blip on that radar, but BWABB is the scary flatline (damn, this analogy probably doesn't make sense. Just go with it again).

I can't forgive and forget, Gorky. Futurama could (probably will) continue into a series of great seasons that are better than any of us could any imagine, but that won't make BWABB not suck, in terms of plot, characterization, or humor (see, I have other reasons for not liking it).

Also, I've got to go with what someone else once said on those lines you mentioned. That's not growth to me. That's Leela seeming like a schitzo *****. "You forgot about me?". How was he supposed to know she was interested? "Hey, I know that love of your life just died, want to go to a movie?". Completely ridiculous.

Self-Indulgent storyline? You've got that right. That one was completely for the writers. I don't think even once they thought about how it would be received by fans (generally well, then split factions of pretty good, meh, and a very vocal Grrr!). I don't see any reason why, as fans, we should be happy with the writers making an episode for themselves (especially such a long and continuity destroying one). Sure, some people liked it. But when an episode splits your (the writers) fanbase that much, you know that you did something wrong. You can't please them all, but if you can't please at least 80% (i.e. most), you (the writers) should consider it a failure and make an effort not to replicate it.

****, all this talk about BWABB almost makes me understand why certain people turned anti-shippy. I'm almost turning anti-shippy just remembering how much the writers were willing to sacrifice a well-built up relationship for "plot" and "jokes" (which, why did it have to? Is there some rule that says an episode can't be funny and also not set things back? Bender's Game was at least as good as BWABB (if not much better for the first half and somewhat better for the second) and it didn't sacrifice much (Leela's emotional control, but at least there was a good reason (betrayal/shock collar). The only thing keeping me from a turn is remembering that ITWGY exists and that the new season promises to keep an eye on the relationship (also that I'm sure that, aside from Kif/Amy, BWABB will never be referenced again (discontinuity is such a sweet option (also, sticking it in my bottom drawer and making cross signs whenever I have to reach for something in there and catch a glimpse of it).
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #111 on: 08-11-2009 07:54 »
« Last Edit on: 08-11-2009 07:57 »

I don't forgive the writers for completely disregarding the emotional arc in BBS in favor of their dumb monster movie; I just happen to be more amused by TBWaBB than you are. I'll grant that it's not the best Futurama has to offer (I once said that what makes BBS and ItWGY my two favorite movies is that they're both so distinctly Futurama; TBWaBB and BG are plot-driven but passable stories that could have been done by any other sci-fi show, or any other cartoon), but I don't happen to see it as completely worthless. But, hey, it's all subjective; I respect that you don't like the movie, and I'm not looking to convince you that it's some sort of masterpiece. Because, I mean, it's not. But I think it has its moments.

And I think, after BBS, the ball was definitely in Leela's court; I'm not going to argue with you there. However, after all the maturing Fry went through--and after his various efforts to steal Leela away from Lars, or otherwise mess up their romance--it doesn't seem logical for him to hook up with a random woman he meets within a month. What happened to loving Leela? He had just been given pretty good evidence that he might have a chance with her (hell, she acknowledges that Fry was a good man, showing that she could be amenable to treating him and Lars as the same entity), and yet he chooses to embark on an ill-conceived relationship with a woman he hardly knows? If Leela using "You fogot about me" as justification for treating Fry like crap in TBWaBB is ridiculous, then Fry expecting Leela to consider him an attractive romantic prospect is equally ridiculous.

I know that ties into the whole out-of-character thing, a flaw of the movie that we both acknowledge, but it's worth mentioning that both characters messed up in TBWaBB. I don't consider it a massive, unforgivable blip, though. I mean, if you want to talk about something that the relationship shouldn't be able to recover from, look at "Parasites Lost." Leela more or less says that she only loves a Fry that, well, isn't Fry at all. If they can overcome a set-back like that, I think they can overcome some rash and insensitive behavior that, to be fair, occurred during a time that was taxing both emotionally (what with the dead fiances and whatnot) and physically (what with the tentacle-rape).

And at least TBWaBB seems to imply that Fry and Leela share a mutual attraction. I mean, doesn't Bender say that love is "suspicious", "needy", "fearful", and "greedy"? That all great love is characterized by great jealousy? Fry and Leela definitely have a lot of jealousy going on, at the very least. That they are arguing with the the same gusto as the likes of Kif and Amy (an actual couple), should urge us to draw some comparisons. (Again, I'm reading too much into this, I know. But I am strangely unbothered by my over-analytical tendencies.)
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #112 on: 08-11-2009 08:48 »

I think BWABB has some great moments (Deathball, that rip does look really pretty, Pirate Battle, Bender Speech). I think that those moments are few to the films bad moments (most of chapters 3 and 4, some of chapters 1 and 2 (mostly whatever relates to bad characterization (Fry/Colleen), or to the terrible second half (Fry into the rift, Kif's death) and don't come close to making up for them ( Me holding a pitchfork and torch: "Discontinuity! Discontinuity!").

Strange you should mention 302 as an episode that the ship shouldn't be able to recover from, considering that's the one that brought it to the forefront in the first place. I don't see that episode as anywhere near unrecoverable.

Leela doesn't really mean that she loves the infested Fry. She means that she loves how Fry, while infested, made her feel. She's left confused by how Fry returns and she thinks that the love Fry felt toward her (and the love he made her feel) was nothing but a fabrication of the parasites. She's left thinking that the only way a man could love her is if he was being "forced" to. Again, she was very confused and probably reacted in ways that she would later regret, but are completely understandable.

Fry's part, meanwhile, is supposed to imply that he really does love her. That despite the heartbreak he experienced he still believes there is a chance, and that he'll prove to her that his feelings for her were no fabrication (and vise-versa). I still find it quite touching (although I've noticed that you seem to have turned on that episode recently).

Whoa! What are you suggesting in that third paragraph? That I think that Fry and Colleen made sense? No, I do not. You and me are in agreement there. It doesn't make any sense that Fry would have dated Colleen and a giant Hentai monster and then expected Leela to be all over him (which is why I don't think the writers should have written it).

I think that plenty of episodes have suggested mutual attraction between Fry and Leela before (including your recent punching bag, 302). I don't see any reason to give BWABB credit for shoving it in at the end, especially when it's such an obvious ploy of the writers to say to the shippers "Sorry for completely disregarding that relationship we built up for several seasons and the previous movie for our self-indulgent monster story". That figurative apology of roses and chocolate didn't work on me (did I just use an angry GF allegory? But I'm a guy!).

The very fact that you acknowledge that the BWABB and BG don't work as Futurama stories is a point I've been trying to make. I love Futurama. They aren't Futurama. Thus, I don't love them. Although, I'd like to make exception for the first half of BG, which I feel is very Futurama.

I know we're never going to agree on this (has an internet argument ever changed anyone's mind?). If you're amused by the film, go for it. I'm not trying to ruin your fun. I'm just stating my opinion on a public forum where I think it'll be appreciated and discussed (you've had fun with these long-ass arguments too, right?).

Man, I have got to get over this movie. I spend way to much much time arguing about it (how much of our respective times have I wasted?). ****, I feel sorry for bendersfender up there, who just wanted to express a quick opinion (His opinion on BWABB was only 5 words!) and ended up riling up some fanboy to make a long post on how he is "wrong" to enjoy something. I'll be impressed he figures out a way to jump back in to the conversation.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #113 on: 08-11-2009 16:39 »

Get a room, you two.

Can I just say this; Futurama made me love Nixon.  So I cannot at all follow the concept that "A Taste of Freedom" should be the worst episode.  It may not be the best, but damn is it far from the worst out there.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #114 on: 08-11-2009 17:51 »

@FoA: I'm not trying to hate on "Parasites Lost", because you are right in saying that it brought the Fry/Leela would-be romance to the fore (and, as a shipper, I'm appreciative of that). But it also established that Leela couldn't love Fry because he's so immature, an excuse that the writers returned to again and again (even in my much-loved BBS) to justify her rejection of Fry. Even though it's the first episode to acknowledge the possibility of Fry and Leela one day hooking up, PL seems to disregard the instances where Leela seemed interested in the prospect of dating Fry (her jealousy in "A Flight to Remember", the two near-kisses in both that episode and "Xmas Story", her excitement at learning that Fry has a thing for the cyclops he works with in "War is the H-Word." Yes, these are all kind of throw-aways, but they seem to imply that Leela isn't entirely repulsed by the guy). It kind of turns the ship into something unrequited, something that Fry has to work at (which, to be fair, made his character a bit more sympathetic and relatable); Leela, more often than not, gets shortchanged and cast as the bitch who won't give Fry a chance. And I don't think that's really fair, or all that conducive to building support for the ship.

So I guess what I can appreciate about TBWaBB, then, is that Leela isn't uninterested in Fry because of his supposed immaturity. She's annoyed by his fickle nature, sure, but she's still clearly jealous (at least at the end, and I'll level with you that that's mostly the writers apologizing for dumping on the ship for the preceeding 88 minutes). Her jealousy, which Bender attributes, in a general sense, to "great love", seems to suggest that she doesn't hate Fry, she's not uninterested in Fry--she's just confused and annoyed as hell by the situation. And there's a certain hopefulness there, at the end of TBWaBB; the two of them care enough about each other to, well, argue. I think that's almost positive attention, or at least more positive than were their interactions throughout the rest of the movie. (Yes, I know I attribute much more importance to that final scene than you do, FoA, but I guess I was just glad the writers gave us something in the way of an apology for the out-of-character behavior (which, of course, never should have happened and was self-indulgent).)

Ultimately, I guess I like that TBWaBB sort of levels out the playing field. Fry screws up monumentally and is pretty insensitive to Leela's (admittedly subtle) feelings; at least, finally, he's not a martyr. He's kind of playing the same part Leela played in BBS: he forgets about someone with whom he may have something special, for the sake of persuing a person that he believes he's in love with and who, at the very least, openly reciprocates. If Leela is villainous for flaunting her relationship with Lars in BBS, then Fry is equally as villainous in BBS, regardless of the fact that Leela doesn't seem too perturbed by his actions (although I'd argue that there is some subtext to support the Leela-is-jealous-of-Colleen line of thought).

And, yeah, I know that I'm analyzing this movie way more than it deserves. I'm just trying to explain how I'm able to keep it a part of canon without turning against the ship.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #115 on: 08-11-2009 21:00 »

@Svip: I know what you mean. I actually think that A Taste of Freedom is one of the more underrated episodes of the series.

@Gorky: I kinda think that really only episodes 314 and 415 really push the whole "he's immature" thing as an excuse. I'm letting go of 302 because that was the first one to really push it, and she was taken aback by his declaration, which I see as her being a little shocked that he might feel the same way she does. I think she thought of it as more of a crush and faced with the idea of actually dating him, started to analyze if she could really see herself with him. He's a close friend, and she doesn't want to risk what they have if she doesn't think she'll get something out of it. She doesn't want just "some good times" with someone that close to her.

I admit it was still a substantial change in the way their relationship was handled (mutual, underplayed, based around "loneliness" to mutual through Fry's perspective (I don't want to say one-sided since I don't see it that way. Sure, Fry is the one shown to be pursuing it while she's unsure, but she's not completely against it, just very unsure it could work now that it's a serious possibility rather than a light crush/daydream which is how she may have thought of it before), overplayed (focus of several episodes), and based a little more around "destiny" (instead of letting viewers assume they'll get together (S1, S2), the writers went the way of outright stating it (S3, S4, BBS, ITWGY). But I kinda understand why.

If it was still done the way it was done in S1/2, I'm not sure it would have ever mattered. Progression was necessary, and while it may not have been the best progression, it was one that was needed. If it was kept underplayed, certain episodes would have been completely jarring (like most of the shippy ones, for instance). To go from underplayed to overplayed with no real transition would be kinda weird. I mean, imagine if The Sting was part of S2. How weird! Parasites Lost is meant as a transition episode for fans, from the relationship being an underplayed, fun concept to a full-on running story for the series, with episodes devoted to it.

Plus, we have to remember that the series is written by men. You can't expect them to completely write a female character right with no real female perspective to rely on (all they had was Kristin Gore, and she wasn't a major writer (aside from one episode) and she isn't with the show anymore). All they know is what they felt as men, toward women. They've all likely had some unrequited love in their lives (some girl they sat behind in class or something) and that's the experience they had and base on.

Anyway, unrequited gives us something to cheer for, a goal. It's gives the relationship some tension that isn't available when it's underplayed (S1/2). I'm not saying it's the best thing they could have done. I'm saying it's better for the relationship than what S1/2 did (as cute as it was back then).

Man, the thing I like about Lars over The Creature is that at least he's a tip towards Fry. By the end, she realizes that Fry can be/was the guy she fell in love with. What does BWABB teach Fry? To settle for a woman he's been devoted to for years over his seeming real dream to screw a giant eye with tentacles (you read my analysis (I feel so smart using that word) of the last lines, right?)? I can't accept that. BBS spends a good chunk of its running time devoted to a storyline that ends with Leela becoming closer to Fry. BWABB spends its running time devoted to a storyline that ends with what I perceive as characterization the relationship should have been unrecoverable from (if I didn't choose to ignore it in favor of much better stories). It doesn't have anything about Fry reaffirming his love towards Leela (I even disagree with you on those last lines, so from my perspective there is really nothing) but instead him completely pulling away from it. It makes no sense (from my perspective since I apparently have to mention this)!

I don't even dislike it all because of how badly it handles the ship. Aside from the ship, it does a decent job of handling the characters during the first half. It's the second half that really screws everybody up. That's the part that I hate (the first half I only dislike). I kinda see that The Creature is supposed to be a cult, with everybody under it's control, which is a problem because then they don't act like themselves. Fry doesn't act like Fry, the Professor doesn't act like the Professor, so I'm freaking losing characters, who are freaking important to make it Futurama (which this entire board argued during the possible cast changes (because if Futurama was just joke and plots, I wouldn't have cared as much (I certainly don't think this series would have had close to the same fanbase without the fantastically written characters).

I don't even to nerd out and complain about it. I wish I could like it (or just meh it) like many of the other fans, but I freaking can't! It's a travesty of weak jokes, weak messages, weak plot, and weak characters. I really do wish I could let it go. I'm going to try. I'm going to let people enjoy it. I'll let board members speak about how they thing it's pretty good without going on tirades because honestly, I have to have better things to do. At least I hope.

I'd like to end with a personal apology to you. I have wasted way too much of both our times on my dislike for this movie, when I should have made my argument (which I did several times, within the same threads!) and left it at that. I'm tired of making these long, draining posts when they won't ever actually accomplish anything and I imagine you probably don't want to endlessly argue about this either. Good Day!

P.S. That doesn't mean I won't respond when you make your next counter-post. I just mean that once we finish this argument, I'll do my best to not get riled up anymore (those new episodes will be a true salvation. No longer will I have to think about my disappointments since I'll be to busy ecstatic over the new Futurama).
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #116 on: 08-12-2009 01:04 »

Eh, this isn't much of a counter-post. Like I said, I'm not trying to persuade you to enjoy TBWaBB; I get that it disappoints you (to understate the matter), and I understand that disappointment. I was really just trying to rationalize my own less-than-hate for the movie, and in that way I guess this back-and-forth was pretty, uh, therapeutic. Or something.

And I agree that "Parasites Lost" was a  necessary turning point, and I really do like the episode. I'm just kind of sensitive to Leela's characterization, because I think a lot of fans don't think too highly of her, and PL doesn't exactly work to disspell the belief that she's a selfish bitch. I understand why she falls for the new and improved Fry, and I understand why she kicks him out of her apartment, but I still don't think PL casts her in the most sensitive light. I just feel like there's sometimes this divide between Fry and Leela, where he's the puppy-dog martyr, and she's the cold and isolated priss. So I like that they're both equally to blame for what happens in TBWaBB (Leela is antagonistic (goddamn, I hate when she tells Fry he should go away), Fry is insensitive), because I think that's part of what enables them to come together in ItWGY. I think that's part of what makes the end of ItWGY jarring, but also inevitable.

Anyway. Thanks for the thoughtful debate, FoA. If I was unsure of my own dorkiness before, well...now I'm more certain than ever that I'm severely socially maladjusted.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #117 on: 08-12-2009 01:22 »

Get a room, you two.

Can I just say this; Futurama made me love Nixon.  So I cannot at all follow the concept that "A Taste of Freedom" should be the worst episode.  It may not be the best, but damn is it far from the worst out there.

It's not massively the best, but it beats stinkers like Lobstertainment without even trying.
Books

Near Death Star Inhabitant
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #118 on: 08-12-2009 01:28 »

I literally exclaimed "Jesus" out loud after whilst scrolling through the length of some of those posts. Gorky and FoA, you are truly nerds among nerds.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #119 on: 08-12-2009 01:32 »

I can't speak for Gorky, but I'll take that as a compliment (because the alternative makes my parents cry).
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