Orange is the New Black

[on:]

I began watching this thanks to constant references on other websites, and after three episodes I still don't know whether or not this is supposed to be funny.

It's as dark as Breaking Bad, which is sometimes described as a black comedy. That's in the show's lighter moments. But it's also incredibly funny, usually at the same time as being either utterly disgusting or as bleak as it's possible to get without having some old man calmly slicing up children for his lunch like it's the most normal thing in the world. I'm only sure of one thing - that I really don't ever want to go to prison.

It's about a woman who's busted for muling drug money for a cartel with her lesbian lover ten years ago. Now that she's settled down into a more normal sort of life, and is engaged to a man who knows nothing of her past, she's going to prison for fifteen months. Which sort of messes up the whole "normal" direction that her life was taking after she stopped being a drug mule. The ex-girlfriend who possibly ratted her out is in there too, and pretty much everybody has some kind of major dysfunction.

It's not a fun place for this woman, and it does a good job of making prison seem a truly awful place (even a minimum-security place where they get to watch TV once in a while, and are allowed to read). It's not everybody's cup of tea, but I think I'll give it a couple more episodes before I make up my mind.

[Reply #1 on:]

I've read some amazing reviews for it and it's been on my "to watch" list since it came out. Though I'm a bit dubious to watch another Jenji Kohan show after how god-awful the last couple of seasons of Weeds were.

[Reply #2 on:]

Well this show is still fresh and new, so it hasn't had enough to time get crappy. I haven't seen Weeds but I thoroughly enjoyed OITNB and spent one week burning through it.

[Reply #3 on:]

Well this show is still fresh and new, so it hasn't had enough to time get crappy. I haven't seen Weeds but I thoroughly enjoyed OITNB and spent one week burning through it.

Weeds was an incredibly flawed show, but I still retain some modicum of respect for it, as it paved the way for a lot of great things (namely Breaking Bad). Season 2 in particular is an utter masterpiece, and I'm personally partial to season 4 despite the general consensus on it. Ultimately though, the show lost focus far too soon in its run, and every time it appeared to be going somewhere, it would eventually prove to be completely aimless. It's a shame too, because the ending of season 6 would've been a perfect place to wrap it up while still retaining some semblance of credibility, but then it continued for a further two seasons which were fucking abymsal.

I'm very, very curious to check out Orange is the New Black, though. Female prisons in particular have been a very unmined subject source for television, outside of Cinemax sexploitation flicks and the scrapped Prison Break spin-off Cherry Hill. The critical acclaim I've seen for this show has gotten my hopes pretty high, regardless of my opinions on Kohan.

[Reply #4 on:]

I thought seasons 1-6 of Weeds were fantastic (and 1-3 were essentially perfect in my opinion), and it remains one of my favorite shows ever. But ya, 7 and 8 were definitely overkill.

As for this show, it's pretty darn good. I wouldn't say it's as funny as Weeds was, but it is funny and the setting and plot make for great drama. I liked it enough that like Spacedal I burned through the series in a week or two...same as I did with Netflix's other great show House of Cards.

The less said about Netflix's third show, Hemlock Grove, the better.

[Reply #5 on:]

Josh, OITNB is definitely worth watching. I finished the first season, and I'm now eagerly awaiting the second. The last few episodes really ramped up the stakes.

[Reply #6 on:]

I think you were addressing Beamer?

[Reply #7 on:]

Josh, Beamer, same thing. They both contain vowels. You can see where I got mixed up, right?

[Reply #8 on:]

I've finally gotten around to watching this show... Haven't finished the first season yet, but I'm loving it so far. I'm really surprised at how relatively subtle/nuanced it is for something produced by Jenji Kohan - she's most definitely redeemed herself for the last two seasons of Weeds. This show's take on prison life manages to create a genuine sense of horror/discomfort without ever going overboard, and really deserves to be commended for the writing and performances in particular.

I also love how well this show handles sexuality - the episode with the transgender character's backstory was executed beautifully. Likewise for Piper's bisexuality, which they actually take seriously as opposed to, say, playing it up for laughs or shrugging it off as "a silly phase" or anything like that. Have such issues ever even been legitimately tackled in this kind of way on a tv series before?

On a side note, I've had the theme song stuck in my head for days now.

[Reply #9 on:]

I like Regina Spektor but for some reason I never really dug the theme song for this. Great show, though.

[Reply #10 on:]

I like Regina Spektor but for some reason I never really dug the theme song for this.

Because you're a crap? It's because you're a crap, right??

[Reply #11 on:]

I don't like Regina Spec(k)tor but the theme song and credits are perfect so shut up.

[Reply #12 on:]

I haven't heard enough of Reginald and the Spectors to judge, though I agree, the theme song is absolutely perfect.

JoshTheater probably just thinks otherwise because he's a crap.

[Reply #13 on:]

I definitely don't hate it, it just never really appealed to me as that great of a song. It might be the fact that it's clearly an edited version in the opening...maybe I'd like the full version more, but for me everything about the opening to this show is a little awkward. Can't really place why though.

I'm surprised neither of you like/have heard Regina Spektor, but I think she's a very cool and unique musician. Maybe if you heard some stronger songs from her albums you'd understand why the theme for this slightly disappointed me.

[Reply #14 on:]

I'm certainly not saying it's a perfect song, just perfect for this show (and works brilliantly with the intro sequence).

[Reply #15 on:]

BUMP! Season 2 has been announced for a June 6 release date.

[Reply #16 on:]

I like how we forget these shows have their own threads and decide to talk about them in the TV test thread instead of bumping.

Anyway, I finally finished season 2. Totally brilliant stuff. I was grinning ear to ear for most of the final episode. Miles above season one and an easy contender for best of the year.

[Reply #17 on:]

You bumped the show's thread to talk about it in a very vague and unspecific way. I didn't forget we had this thread I just assumed not a lot of people were ready to talk about season 2 because I finished it pretty quickly. I mean judging from how in the span of less than a year this thread is still only one page long.

[Reply #18 on:]

Obviously I didn't think there was anything wrong with you posting about it in the TV test thread. I just like to utilize these threads, especially when they haven't gotten much use yet like you pointed out.

That's a good point though, shows' specific threads are more for spoiler territory. Although it's kind of odd figuring out how to interpret the rules about spoilers with these Netflix shows, which is why I left it vague anyway. With weekly shows the rule is once an episode is aired, in the show's thread what happened is fair game...but with Netflix people take their own time working their way through the episodes. So maybe it should be once the same amount of weeks have passed as episodes in the season since it goes up on Netflix, spoilers are acceptable? So...by August 29th?

[Reply #19 on:]

Even the AVClub will be done talking about the show by then.

[Reply #20 on:]

Anyway, I finally finished season 2. Totally brilliant stuff. I was grinning ear to ear for most of the final episode. Miles above season one and an easy contender for best of the year.

Tell me about it.

Show spoiler

Caputo's moment of triumph being ruined by Fig's breakdown

was one of the funniest moments of the season. I don't know who I felt worse for at that point, but feeling bad for both of them didn't stop me from being amused by all of it. All of it.

Yes, I'm horrible.

[Reply #21 on:]

I finally got around to watching season 2. Absolutely enthralling television. The way this show manages to give every little character such depth and make them all so fascinating to watch never fails to astound me, but even more incredible is how the writers managed to juggle so many balls this season in terms of all the disparate plot points that occurred and then tied them all together in such a brilliant way in the end.

Easily the best season of television I've watched since Breaking Bad ended. And the clear front-runner for best tv show of 2014 so far.

[Reply #22 on:]

Can we talk more about this? Can we have episode discussions? I just finished Season 1 and 2 and I don't know what to do with my life!

[Reply #23 on:]

I just finished Season 1 and 2 and I don't know what to do with my life!

Mule some cocaine, go to prison in America, and have wacky adventures there with a bunch of misfits who couldn't deal with life on the outside. Just watch out for the bull dykes, sadistic guards, and the enemy which cuts down the powerful and the weak alike: merciless budget cuts.

[Reply #24 on:]

Can we talk more about this? Can we have episode discussions? I just finished Season 1 and 2 and I don't know what to do with my life!

Go for it. It's been a few months for me but I remember season 2 pretty well.

[Reply #25 on:]

Well, that ending was damn amazing for one

[Reply #26 on:]

Season Three came out on Netflix a few days ago. Go watch it.

Season Three was a little different than One and Two, and a lot happened in the last episode. I'm still unsure as to whether or not I liked it. It might be time to binge-watch the series as a whole again to try and form an opinion.

What I know so far is that I've really done a U-turn on some of the characters I used to be sympathetic towards, and some that I really wasn't. Which is interesting. I mean, I still think that Piper herself is just a shitty creature. That's not changed. But I find myself a lot more sympathetic to some of the other characters and disliking some of the ones I'd come to empathise with in the previous seasons.

I've also noticed a few references that feel out of place, as though they're pandering to the pop culture crowd. Which is a sure sign of decline in quality, as far as I'm concerned. I'm expecting Season Four to be the last good season.

But those are initial impressions only, and subject to change.

[Reply #27 on:]

I finished season 3 last night, and very much enjoyed it for the most part. You're right in that it's quite a different beast from the first two seasons - the pacing has definitely slowed down (which isn't a bad thing by any means) and there's certainly a much more relaxed atmosphere in comparison to the second season. However, given how fucking intense season 2 was, I dare say we needed a season like this to follow it. Trying to top the Vee storyline would've been an exercise in futility on the writers' parts, and they were smart to avoid it.

Overall, most of the individual story arcs worked for me (though I was a bit disappointed that they didn't really dovetail any of them - so much of the fun of season 2 was seeing as these disparate plot points come together), with a few exceptions. Namely, I'm fucking sick of Diaz's pregnancy storyline, as I am with Piper's constant love triangles. Oddly enough, I find Piper to be much more enjoyable a character when she's in "evil vindictive bitch" mode, and I'd be quite happy if the show never focused on her romantic life again at this point. Caputo's storyline this season wasn't quite as insufferable as these two, but probably didn't warrant as much screentime as it took up.

As for the other characters, I really came to love Pensatucky and Big Boo this season - those two make for a surprisingly excellent pairing. Red, Morello and Suzanne were all in fine form as usual (can we PLEASE have The Time-Hump Chronicles as a real-life spin-off book?!??), as were Taystee and Poussey, whose banter will never fail to amuse me. On the note of banter, I definitely enjoyed the increased amount of time given to throwaway character moments. And the Norma storyline was hilarious. I also came to like Flaca and the other kitchen workers much more this season, though I still have no strong opinions on Chang, Sister Ingalls or Soso, despite most of them having slightly expanded roles.

Show spoiler

Bennett's departure didn't take me by great surprise, as I knew the actor had been cast in a main role on another series, but holy shit, I did not see Nicky's exit coming at ALL. I'm actually still a little perturbed by how that thing with the heroin played out - one minute the guards are raiding the building and the next she's in a van heading to Supermax, and that's it? No further questions asked of the guard whose desk the heroin was actually found in? I dunno, that whole sequence of events really needed some more time to play out, in my opinion.

OVERALL: 8/10
Better than season one, not quite as good as season two.

What I know so far is that I've really done a U-turn on some of the characters I used to be sympathetic towards, and some that I really wasn't. Which is interesting. I mean, I still think that Piper herself is just a shitty creature. That's not changed. But I find myself a lot more sympathetic to some of the other characters and disliking some of the ones I'd come to empathise with in the previous seasons.

This has always been one of the things the show's done, though. Remember in season 1, when Suzanne was introduced only as Crazy Eyes, and the show initially portrayed her as being a very dangerous breed of mentally unstable before humanising her as the season progressed? And the reverse also happened for Healy, who appeared to be a very sympathetic and reasonable character at first, before his homophobic/misogynistic views came out and he left Piper for dead at the end? The show has always tried to say that most people are neither good nor bad, at least not in the traditional "black and white" way typically insisted upon by fiction. There are the occasional exceptions, of course (no one's going to argue that Pornstache and Vee aren't horrible people), but on the whole, that's been a big part of the show's M.O. since day one.

I've also noticed a few references that feel out of place, as though they're pandering to the pop culture crowd. Which is a sure sign of decline in quality, as far as I'm concerned. I'm expecting Season Four to be the last good season.

The pop culture references have also always been there, and while I don't often get all of them, I'm not sure what would make them out of place, seeing as the show is set in the real world in present day. Most of the inmates seem as though they'd gravitates towards modern pop culture as points of reference, rather than, say, more literary references. It's a pretty minor thing, and doesn't impact the show that much at all, in my opinion.

Having said that, I'm also a little worried for the quality of what's to come, but only because season 4 was the point when Weeds initially started to decline in quality. I'm hoping the major differences between the shows will prevent Jenji Kohan from repeating the same mistakes (mainly given that OitNB's cast seems as though it's about to grow significantly, whereas Weeds' cast dwindled down each season).

[Reply #28 on:]

I'm not sure what would make [pop culture references] out of place, seeing as the show is set in the real world in present day. Most of the inmates seem as though they'd gravitates towards modern pop culture as points of reference, rather than, say, more literary references. It's a pretty minor thing, and doesn't impact the show that much at all, in my opinion.

Minor nitpicks with this statement:

The show is technically set less than eighteen months after it first aired. It's not quite "the present" and will continue to lag behind "the present" as it progresses, due to not covering as much time in a season as passes in the real world between one season and another being released.

The majority of the characters have been in place for at least six months and have been in the prison system for longer. Nothing close to "contemporary" pop culture exists for these women. Their references should feel as weirdly dated as they did when the show began, and Piper was the only inmate who knew what had been happening in the outside world for the last little while. These women are cut off from society. None of them have access to Twitter or Facebook. They don't get much in the way of news, they have limited contact with family and friends, and this is a large part of what binds them together as a reluctant community.

Their reference game should not be anything close to current, for the most part - the show was really good at this during the first two seasons, but there have been a few things this time around that made me think hard about whether or not that particular trivium should have been part of the collective consciousness of the incarcerated community. Or at least should have raised quizzical eyebrows from those who'd been inside for a goodly while.

The geek stuff from Piper is a little out of place. Obscure Star Wars references should be more her brother's thing, or Poussey's, or Taystee's, or Vause. But from Piper it really doesn't gel with what we know about her character.

We get plenty of literary references, courtesy of some characters who have surprising depths to say that they're walking stereotypes. Ingalls, Bursett, Red, Big Boo, Caputo, Healy, and even Luscheck have all revealed themselves to be fairly well-read (or at least to have read at least one influential work each). Perhaps that's the point, since all of these characters represent stereotypes for whom this is something of a subversion.

Also, the majority of the entertainment on offer is literary (until the bedbugs, anyway). The prison library is shown to be patronised by almost all of the inmates who can read at some point or other, and they tend to circulate the same reading material amongst themselves. With no access to modern pop culture, I'd think that this would be where they'd be expected to derive much of their collective points of reference for shared culture.

With that said, you're right in that it's a minor thing. But I think it's a minor indication that signals the show's writing may have become a little less thoughtful and a little lazier. This is not a good thing for a show that's only three seasons old.

I really came to love Pensatucky and Big Boo this season - those two make for a surprisingly excellent pairing.

They really do.

can we PLEASE have The Time-Hump Chronicles as a real-life spin-off book?

"Still a better love story than Twilight" isn't really a justification for something to exist, so much as a critical slur against Twilight. Since "Still a better love story than Twilight" is probably the most positive thing that could be said about this tale if it existed IRL (and logically, it's a joke that would have limited re-exposure value), I think that it'd be best to make this an e-book rather than to print a run which would just end up being pulped.

I'm fucking sick of Diaz's pregnancy storyline, as I am with Piper's constant love triangles.

Agreed. I was expecting her to die in childbirth. I thought that would make an interesting struggle for her mother and the rest of her family to play out. This show does "bleak" so fucking well. It would also have made a good statement about the healthcare system of prisons and the poorer population segments of the US in general if she and her baby had died, potentially due to a lack of proper medical attention being paid to her pregnancy and her needs.

Piper's shifting romantic attentions do make me wonder how long she'd have stayed with her boyfriend (who seemed to be serious about her) if she'd managed to avoid prison. Would she have ever realised that she didn't really want him? Would she have been miserable, ultimately? Would she have ever missed Vause if she hadn't re-encountered her? What the fuck is her deal with being unable not to cheat on people?

Caputo's storyline this season wasn't quite as insufferable as these two, but probably didn't warrant as much screentime as it took up.

I don't know about that. I've enjoyed Caputo's struggling, along with the juxtaposition between him being an angry, bitter, self-hating failure and also striving to be at least a nominally decent human being. It's very real. He's a complex character, rather than just being despicable like Mendez or purely selfish like Fig. His inner conflict enriched the storyline of the prison's staff this season, I thought.

I like complex characters, which is probably why the new depth to characters like Boo and Doggett has made me enjoy their storylines much more this season. Piper, on the other hand, is still pretty uncomplicated (except romantically), which is probably a huge part of why I don't like or sympathise with her to nearly the extent that I do with characters like Poussey or Red, who have been shown to have some real depth and are more than just selfish, spoiled, creatures becoming vicious in order to survive. Which seems to sum up Piper to me.

She began as a brat, and she's morphed into a manipulative bully (whilst retaining everything that made her a brat). Midway through Season Two, I began to feel more of a reluctant admiration for her determination and survival grit, but she never really went anywhere good with it. She turned her acceptance that prison would be difficult into a willingness to exploit people both literally and emotionally in order to keep herself in control of her situation as she sees it, rather than growing into a less unpleasant person.

[Reply #29 on:]

he show is technically set less than eighteen months after it first aired. It's not quite "the present" and will continue to lag behind "the present" as it progresses, due to not covering as much time in a season as passes in the real world between one season and another being released.

The majority of the characters have been in place for at least six months and have been in the prison system for longer. Nothing close to "contemporary" pop culture exists for these women. Their references should feel as weirdly dated as they did when the show began, and Piper was the only inmate who knew what had been happening in the outside world for the last little while. These women are cut off from society. None of them have access to Twitter or Facebook. They don't get much in the way of news, they have limited contact with family and friends, and this is a large part of what binds them together as a reluctant community.

Yeah, those are fair points - and I was actually wondering about the timeline of the show myself at quite a few points this season (despite my criticisms of Diaz's storyline, her pregnancy did at least serve as a helpful way to gauge the passage of time in Litchfield). However, I'm not sure how cut off from popular culture these women are - they definitely watch a decent amount of television and are familiar with celebrities to some extent (ie. the whole Martha Stewart satire in the back half of season 3), and I could've sworn we'd seen some of them with celebrity gossip magazines in there before, though I may be remembering incorrectly. They also seem to have access to music - I remember a dance party back in season 1. This is minimum security prison, after all, they're not too isolated from the outside world in comparison to characters in other prison shows/movies.

As for my comment on the literary references, what I meant is that the characters who are more inclined to read make these sorts of references, while those more predisposed to gossip go for pop culture references instead. And Piper's Star Wars references didn't seem all that jarring to me - most people from her demographic are familiar with Star Wars, and Piper definitely spent a great deal of her time around nerds before going to prison.

I don't know about that. I've enjoyed Caputo's struggling, along with the juxtaposition between him being an angry, bitter, self-hating failure and also striving to be at least a nominally decent human being. It's very real. He's a complex character, rather than just being despicable like Mendez or purely selfish like Fig. His inner conflict enriched the storyline of the prison's staff this season, I thought.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think Caputo's a fantastic character, and I actually enjoyed his story arc this season for the most part - I just didn't think we needed quite so many scenes of him butting heads with the faceless beurocracy of the prison's new owners in order to convey the point being made. OitNB is most definitely an ensemble show now, but the writers still haven't quite worked out how to evenly divide up the screentime between its large number of characters yet.

Funny enough, Caputo's one character whose romantic life I almost would like to see more of, if only for the fact that I'm so damn curious to know how the hell his affair with Fig actually came to be.

I like complex characters, which is probably why the new depth to characters like Boo and Doggett has made me enjoy their storylines much more this season. Piper, on the other hand, is still pretty uncomplicated (except romantically), which is probably a huge part of why I don't like or sympathise with her to nearly the extent that I do with characters like Poussey or Red, who have been shown to have some real depth and are more than just selfish, spoiled, creatures becoming vicious in order to survive. Which seems to sum up Piper to me.

I agree with pretty much all of that - though I think the main issue with Piper is that the writers don't quite know what to do with her anymore. In season 1, when the show was less of an ensemble piece and more about her, Piper served as somewhat of a proxy for the audience - she was our gateway into Litchfield. Now that we no longer need her for that purpose, what we're left with is a very shallow, two-dimensional character anchoring the narrative. It's definitely the show's biggest flaw right now.

Also, I forgot to say early, Pensatucky's story arc this season was fucking devastating. She's come a long way from the one-note antagonist she was back in season 1, that's for sure.

[Reply #30 on:]

Piper's Star Wars references didn't seem all that jarring to me - most people from her demographic are familiar with Star Wars, and Piper definitely spent a great deal of her time around nerds before going to prison.

Eh. I just felt like there were better characters to make those references. I mean, I just don't see Piper giving a shit about Star Wars, despite being in a position to have familiarity with it - it doesn't seem like it would form a part of her frame of reference for things. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

Also, I forgot to say early, Pensatucky's story arc this season was fucking devastating. frown She's come a long way from the one-note antagonist she was back in season 1, that's for sure.

I have the feeling that the show's writers will continue to develop characters like this. They did it in Seasons One and Two with other characters, they've done it this season with Doggett, among others, and I hope that we'll continue to see not just how characters came to Litchfield, not just how they went down their path, but how they deal with what they've done, and their growth as a result.

[Reply #31 on:]

This is a lot to read. And I haven't even watched the whole season yet. So that's my excuse for not reading it yet.

[Reply #32 on:]

I watched the first five episodes of season 3 last night because my apartment was hot as balls and I could not for the life of me fall asleep. But that's fine because I'd been meaning to get around to this anyway. I'm digging it so far. I still don't care in the least bit about Alex/Piper but at least the Daya/Bennett story finally has some freaking traction even though it's still a terrible arc that I wish had never happened.

[Reply #33 on:]

Huh, I didn't realise I'd never weighed in on this.

I was surprised when I first started watching it because I thought it was supposed to be a comedy, what with all those awards it won for being a comedy. It's blatantly a drama.

Anyway, I really like it as a drama, although it's started to feel a bit less like it has an end-game in sight and more like it's just doing monster-of-the-season type stuff with the seasons subsequent to the first. I wonder how long the makers envision it going for.