Ship Trek: Deep Thread Nine

[Reply #640 on:]

The problem is that they're extending plots to a movie format, but they still have to keep the 22 minute barrier in mind, so they can't pace it properly. If they were writing just movies they'd not have this problem. The pacing is what does so much of the damage, IMO. It makes everything feel forced and juddery.

Try watching it as individual episodes and see if it feels different. I suspect it might.

ETA: Wheee, totp... small text!

[Reply #641 on:]

That actually seems to be the biggest complaint among professional critics.

[Reply #642 on:]

Its a tough thing to make a movie you know is going to get quartered. But I think Benders Game will work better in the format. Splitting up important character developments has more harsh consequences than splitting up travel / fight scenes.

Futurama was able to distinguish itself from the Simpsons by being able to have an underlying story and character development. It might be smaller and less direct than other shows, but it was there. There was a sense that past "events" characters experienced affected their current actions, and there was a sense of progression of time. Right off the bat at the start of BBS I had to do an inward cringe at the professor telling everyone they were fired two years ago. The idea of two skipped years just didn't mesh well with the first four seasons.

It would be nice if they could use a bit of the "explaining the past" segments coming up to cover the two year gap they are acknowledging, to make BBS and BWABB fit better in the overall picture. It looks like Benders Game will be appropriately detached, just another fun adventure. But BBS and BWABB affected characters quite a bit, and I actually do like what happened in BBS / BWABB, but they seem out of place because of where the show left off.

There is potential there, when Fry acknowledged he was immature, but one day wouldn't be in BBS. They could just do a quick tie in to show after the opera blowing up "parasites lost" style. It would hurt to watch, and probably leave a bad taste, but it would put some perspective on BBS / BWABB, and let ITWGY move ahead without unnecessary hang ups about the past.

Kinda hope I articulated that right...

[Reply #643 on:]

I think I get what you're saying. I don't agree with everything in there but the basic idea is good.

[Reply #644 on:]

Gah! Now I'm going to stay up until 3am watching Devils Hands, BBS and BWABB again so I can stick some words to the thoughts floating around in my head...

Sleep is for the weak.

[Reply #645 on:]

I got what you're saying too. Just a flashback to what had happened after Idle Hands is all we're asking really... the lack of closure is a killer.

[Reply #646 on:]

This is my fast reply re: previous posts, work sucks and I will elaborate more when I have the minutes:
The show was forced to close earlier than the writers had planned for certain story arcs, therefore Devil's Hands represents an imperfect ending. With the rebirth of the characters, the writers could either acknowledge the "ending", or proceed as though it never had to (and didn't) happen. They chose the latter.
I have buckets of thoughts about this and the reset button, but it will have to wait
[linda Richman]Talk amongst yourselves![/linda Richman]

[Reply #647 on:]

Well, here is the completion of aforementioned thoughts:
I thought the nod to the PE crew being 'fired' was pretty funny and was a fine way to re-introduce the series after the hiatus; it also set up the hilarious running "executive powder" joke. I am sure they could have thrown out some silly idea about Fry and Leela post Devil's Hands, but I don't think it would have been very satisfying for me. A longer explanation/story would have been good, but given the amount of action that was set to take place in BBS, I don't think additional flashbacks/fill-ins would have been a good idea. Honestly, I would have been shocked if there had been any mention of the final ep in the opening of BBS and I wasn't expecting any. At least my expectations were met there...
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't exactly happy with the reset, but as I mentioned before it would have been a little absurd to me to try and tie the premature end of the series into the new story that had been set.  I am much more concerned about the mess BBS made of past plots, but that has been discussed exhaustively and I don't really have anything to add.
That's how I see it

[Reply #648 on:]

From Benders Game review, ITWGY trailer:

Show spoiler

and finally, a "sneak peek" at (ie, a trailer for) the Next Futurama epic — not called, sadly, Redneck Yokels From Beyond the Stars, but Into the Wild Green Yonder. Which, I must admit, is not a bad title. And in which, it seems, Fry is... killed!

Hmmmmm....

edit spoiler... not plural... noted.

[Reply #649 on:]

I thought the nod to the PE crew being 'fired' was pretty funny and was a fine way to re-introduce the series after the hiatus; it also set up the hilarious running "executive powder" joke. I am sure they could have thrown out some silly idea about Fry and Leela post Devil's Hands, but I don't think it would have been very satisfying for me.

Leela: Don't stop playing, Fry. I wanna hear how it ends.
(Fry picks up holophoner and starts playing)
(Camera backs out from the screen of the 'What-If' Machine)
Bender: There, we watched it.
Farnsworth: Oh my yes... Good grief!
Fry: What is it, professor?
Farnsworth: We've spent two years in front of this thing!
Leela: What!? You mean we just wasted two whole years of our lives?
Farnsworth: No, luckily, we were so bored while watching, our metabolic processes slowed down to practically nothing! We've hardly aged at all!
Amy: Oh, goodie!
Cubert: That's impossible!
Hermes: Well, let's get busy on these packages, mon! Let's see... Planet Express delivery company roll call!

[Reply #650 on:]

Two Three points.

One: It seems pretty clear to me that, from what we hear on the commentary tracks of the movies, the writers are happy to throw in references to previous episodes but have no particular desire for continuity beyond that. The story is all. And the demands of getting it into a presentable form is where (virtually) all the effort seems to lie.

Two: They're comming at this from a break of several years. Presumably they've all been doing other things and have had other priorities. Even if all the old crew signed on to do the new material it won't be a continuation of where they left off. Many old ideas may have been forgotten or changed or dropped entirely as new ones come along. People's experiences will have changed, and their points of view may have as well. Also there will be new people who were not part of the previous team.

Three: The format is different. In the commentary for BBS Ken Keeler (the "writer") expresses the view that BBS should not have been the first movie to be produced. He goes on to explain his reasoning:

• BBS is the most complicated of the four storys.
• They had never done full-length features before and it might be harder to do than they anticipate.

It was just making things unnecessarily hard for themselves by choosing to take on both learning curves simultaneously. He felt that the first movie they attempted ought to be one with a relatively simple story. Obviously he didn't get the final say but I can't help feeling that he was probably right.

[Reply #651 on:]

Leela: Don't stop playing, Fry. I wanna hear how it ends.
(Fry picks up holophoner and starts playing)
(Camera backs out from the screen of the 'What-If' Machine)
Bender: There, we watched it.
Farnsworth: Oh my yes... Good grief!
Fry: What is it, professor?
Farnsworth: We've spent two years in front of this thing!
Leela: What!? You mean we just wasted two whole years of our lives?
Farnsworth: No, luckily, we were so bored while watching, our metabolic processes slowed down to practically nothing! We've hardly aged at all!
Amy: Oh, goodie!
Cubert: That's impossible!
Hermes: Well, let's get busy on these packages, mon! Let's see... Planet Express delivery company roll call!

I liked it Xan, but you think that would have been enough for everyone? My point was more that there was no easy solution...

The format is different. In the commentary for BBS Ken Keeler (the "writer") expresses the view that BBS should not have been the first movie to be produced. He goes on to explain his reasoning:

• BBS is the most complicated of the four storys.
• They had never done full-length features before and it might be harder to do than they anticipate.

It was just making things unnecessarily hard for themselves by choosing to take on both learning curves simultaneously. He felt that the first movie they attempted ought to be one with a relatively simple story. Obviously he didn't get the final say but I can't help feeling that he was probably right.

Great point, the complexity of BBS most likely did hinder the transition (I still like it better than BWABB though)

[Reply #652 on:]

On an entirely unrelated (but hopefully not completely OT) note...

Are there any parallels illuminating parallels illuminating parallels or differences to be drawn between Fry/Leela and WALL-E/EVE (particularly the characteristics of the female side of each pairing)?

[Reply #653 on:]

Fry wouldn't be that industrious about cleaning stuff up. Though, that said, he probably would be a packrat...

[Reply #654 on:]

As much as I love both "Futurama" and "WALL-E", I don't think they can be compared together that well. The type of love that circumferences both of the mainstream couples are both romantic, but different. We all hopefully know or have some general idea what is the love presented between Fry and Leela. WALL-E began in puppy love, then worked his way up to a higher level. Leela flat-out rejects Fry. EVE is oblivious of any humanlike connection between her and WALL-E up until her work got severely affected by WALL-E.

[Reply #655 on:]

I understand the preview copies are already out, but I won't get to see Bender's Game until the general release.  Until then, I'll be revving up my speculation engine, in particular regarding Fry and Leela.  Like most, I don't expect a serious treatment of their 'ship in this flick.  I am wondering how many times Fry will attempt a crude inuendo before Leela gives him a serious centaur kick.  My guess is twice.

[Reply #656 on:]

I'll make the rude, crude comment:

Fry finally gets to ride Leela but it's not what he really expected.

Ralph "It had to be said" Snart

Fry wouldn't be that industrious about cleaning stuff up. Though, that said, he probably would be a packrat...

Hey, that's what I am.  I now have an excuse for having shit from 1991 still in boxes.

[Reply #657 on:]

I'll make the rude, crude comment:

Fry finally gets to ride Leela but it's not what he really expected.

Ralph "It had to be said" Snart

[Reply #658 on:]

I'll make the rude, crude comment:

Fry finally gets to ride Leela but it's not what he really expected.

Ralph "It had to be said" Snart

If they don't make a joke of this I will be very disappointed.

[Reply #659 on:]

If they don't make a joke of this I will be very disappointed.

So will I. They set the bar pretty high in the last one with "Chesty McNag-Nag."

[Reply #660 on:]

I am so looking forward to all the D&D jokes
*gets out monster manual to brush up*

[Reply #661 on:]

I love this scene from "A taste of Freedom".

Fry sees Amy take her top off and just thinks "Amy's getting naked again... no biggie"

Then turns around:



bahahahahahahahah!

[Reply #662 on:]

Yeeee-OOOOOOO-oooooow!

[Reply #663 on:]

The Professor looks pretty content about it too.

And that's not the only time he's looked that way in that kind of sense. ("A Clone of My Own)

[Reply #664 on:]

*wanders into thread, and brushes off the cobwebs*

Fry and Leela have two drastically different standards on loneliness. Leela's endured heavy separation from society her whole life. In her first 24 years, she was again an orphan who was separated by her fellow abandaned peers, a "defect" alien by others in society, and a physically-inept female looked down upon by sexists like Master Fnog. Leela's stated from the pilot she knows what it's like to be lonely. The extreme separation in her life has also lowered the level when she can identify herself with loneliness. Therefore, she can endure more seclusion from society without taking too much harm. Just look at the recently-released "The Beast with a Billion Backs". Leela opposed an entire universal movement- both on Earth and on Yivo (well, for most of her time on Yivo). I found her to an extend treasure her loneliness as that was the only thing going for her (really, who would play single-player pong?).

EDIT: I hate it all. I could definitely write something that makes more sense than this crap. Don't follow it, just use it as an idea of what I want to write (I got a lot to say about this, and I'm very passionate about this).[/b]

I don't think she treasures her loneliness rather that everyone is being controlled by the Genticles at first and she has to fight that, later on when everyone chooses to go to "heaven" she reluctantly agrees to join them because she doesn't want to be alone.

You should have left the post as it stood, it was fine as it was. I agreed with everything else.

*turns around, switches off the light and walks out*

[Reply #665 on:]

*wanders into thread, and brushes off the cobwebs*

Fry and Leela have two drastically different standards on loneliness. Leela's endured heavy separation from society her whole life. In her first 24 years, she was again an orphan who was separated by her fellow abandaned peers, a "defect" alien by others in society, and a physically-inept female looked down upon by sexists like Master Fnog. Leela's stated from the pilot she knows what it's like to be lonely. The extreme separation in her life has also lowered the level when she can identify herself with loneliness. Therefore, she can endure more seclusion from society without taking too much harm. Just look at the recently-released "The Beast with a Billion Backs". Leela opposed an entire universal movement- both on Earth and on Yivo (well, for most of her time on Yivo). I found her to an extend treasure her loneliness as that was the only thing going for her (really, who would play single-player pong?).

EDIT: I hate it all. I could definitely write something that makes more sense than this crap. Don't follow it, just use it as an idea of what I want to write (I got a lot to say about this, and I'm very passionate about this).[/b]

I don't think she treasures her loneliness rather that everyone is being controlled by the Genticles at first and she has to fight that, later on when everyone chooses to go to "heaven" she reluctantly agrees to join them because she doesn't want to be alone.

You should have left the post as it stood, it was fine as it was. I agreed with everything else.

*turns around, switches off the light and walks out*

Notes
Actually, I was just thinking of that exact topic yesterday. Didn't I rewrite my post on it?

Check the next page. I think I rewrote that particular post, but I still had to write about Fry.

EDIT: For all you lazy bums who are following along...

   

Originally posted by Frisco17:
Yeah, I'm gonna go with apathy as the opposite.

I think that's the closest opposite of love that we can come up with. I was actually trying to suggest that before (poorly), but I don't think I wrote earlier posts on this topic out right. I say closest because I still don't believe there is a direct word that describes the opposite of love. How could you find an opposite of a word that can't be clearly defined?

-------------------------

I'm sorry for the long post but I just had to re-respond to this post. Quality control, yes?

   

Originally posted by km73:
As for the thesis that loneliness is relative: Leela probably never realized she was lonely until she met Fry.

I know you want to go somewhere with this post, but I don't think you can go anywhere with that post. Leela's identified with her loneliness as an orphan alone- then throwing in the suscpicion that she's the last remaining one of her freaky-looking species in the universe into the equasion and her differences become obvious. She's accepted her separation from society too- as mentioned in both "Space Pilot 3000" and "Xmas Story". Fry may or may not have made her more noting to her loneliness in both episodes too, considering that even though he's in a strange land with friends and family few and far between (at the time of both episodes), yet her condition in the world was still worse (again, at that time). So, Fry may still deserve some credit to her realization of her loneliness, if only if he made it more apparant. He's done to Leela's perspective than that, though.

 

Originally posted by km73:
Conversely, however, Fry seemed to only have that realization suddenly in BBS - all at once it was, "Oh. I'm lonely." And he was only able to deal with it by doing what he did in that movie, pursuing Leelu et al.

Again, in both "Space Pilot 3000" and "Xmas Story", he's identified he's lonely, but hasn't come to the post where he's come to terms with his loneliness and got up and lived his life day-by-day knowing that. Actually, for all the times that he has ever claimed that he was lonely, he doesn't accept it and struggles with it as it looms over his life.

Fry and Leela have two totally different levels of loneliness, no doubt. Leela, which was discussed in the segment above, has been exposed to high levels of solitude since the beginning of her life when she was an orphan, increased even more when her fellow peers at the oprhanarium rejected her for her physical "defect", and even more since she became a physically-inept female fit enough to rank with better biologically built males but became a subject to sexism by the leader of the pack that controls the entire attitude of the pack (namely Master Fnog). Her experience with such seclusion throughout her life has made her build up a "defense" against great amounts of separation.

Edit: Still more to go on this. I'll come back to it later.

[Reply #666 on:]

What does Fry's look say?  "This is not a change for the better."  Or, "Ohh, poor Leela!"

Is he upset mainly because she is upset about it or is he upset for himself?

[Reply #667 on:]

Seems to be worry, but mostly along the lines of: "Leela has horse legs, do not get kicked. You will die."

[Reply #668 on:]

Ok, so I just saw BWABB (Finally!) - or at least, most of the ending and some of the beginning, and... all I want right now is a framegrab of Fry hugging Leela from behind on Mattress Island - anyone know where I can get it?

[Reply #669 on:]

What happened to this thread, it used to be so full of life? 

[Reply #670 on:]

What happened to this thread, it used to be so full of life? 

I came.

[Reply #671 on:]

What happened to this thread, it used to be so full of life? 

I came.

Please. You arrived. There are dirty minds browsing this thread who could misinterpret what you just said and get their perverted jollies from it. Like me, for instance...

[Reply #672 on:]

Actually it was probably BWABB "coming" that killed it.

[Reply #673 on:]

Okay then.

I "arrived".

[Reply #674 on:]

perverted jollies from it.

teee heee hee.... perveted jollies...

I'm sure there will be much life in this thread come feb, probably be a little quiet for this movie.

[Reply #675 on:]

You said it.  And so did you, and you too for that matter.  BWABB made it a little tough to fill in the intervening months with relationship analysis.  BG is going to to be pretty low on 'ship content too, I take it (have not seen it yet and have avoided spoilers to date). 

Expect light flurries here with the passing of BG but the heaviest preshipitation is expected when ITWGY hits the tristate in April.  This is you media-urologist, HNJ, signing off for now (and still hoping that GY will be a start and not an end).

By the way, I dug up this relevant bit of near vitriol on deviantart.  At times, it summarizes my mood on the topic, although I'm hopeful that GY will finally shift my perspective.

http://jbwarner86.deviantart.com/art/Leela-Jerkass-of-the-Stars-101728336

[Reply #676 on:]

Oh, BG is very low on ship content, as expected.  As in, nonexistent.  Leela is too busy dealing with her violence and 'Anger Issues'  , and killing everything in sight.


They don't seem to really know how to manage that sweet/bitter tone of some of the episodes anymore, they're either just avoiding any of the shippy kind of stuff altogether now (which would be great if the humor and comedy and intelligence were still there) or having Fry mope insupportably around.

That said, the above is not meant as an indictment of Bender's Game, which I watched a couple days ago, enjoyed much of - as I was just saying in an e-mail I liked a good deal of it - overall do feel that it was definitely the best one thus far.


And apparently ITWGY is supposed to hit in February.

[Reply #677 on:]

I think they purposefully avoided it this time round, having 4/4 dealing with it would be a bit much. BG is a breather before they start back up again, so its acceptable.

[Reply #678 on:]

Yes..  all of that is basically what I was saying...  or at least what I meant...

Even two out of 4 dealing with it would be a bit much, especially if the 'dealing' continues to be the way they handled it in BBS and BWABB -  but only maybe possibly not if it could go back to being dealt with the way it was in certain episodes; Love and Rocket, TKOS, the end of Devil's Hands, the subtle shippiness inherent in such eps as TDTESS and IITM; or even to some extent Parasites Lost.

Again, although it still has its flaws BG is undoubtedly the most tolerable so far to me.

[Reply #679 on:]

Mornin. I know I haven't been around while but I'd like to add.... what if these movies were some sick prodegy of the infamous What-If machine? Hm? Hmmm? Eh, in my would it probably would be. :O