Techno? Heck...YES!

[Reply #80 on:]

 

Originally posted by jammer:
Sorry but peep who say using samples is easy annoys me cos its not! Yea its easy to go buy a sample cd and just use the loops supplied but to create original loops with lots of samples requires lots of skill and time.

 People like Four Tet, Colleen and DJ Shadow use samples in their work, and it sounds great. Why? Because they have a sound that incorporates both the warm, spontaneuity of acoustic sounds and the clever warping techniques that can only be produced through electronic equipment. Not only that, but their music evolves and changes throughout the running time, keeping it consistently interesting.
 
 Techno is largely formulaic, it is made both to be danced to and it is made to be easy for unadventurous DJs to slip into a mix with no major disruptions. It's all about clinical perfection which is one of the scourges of musical soul. Sure, it may take a lot of effort for people to manipulate these samples to work the way they want them to but at the end of the day, they're hardly being adventurous at all: they're just tweeking their music conciously to make sure it fits comfortably within defined genre boundaries which usually results in a monotous, thrashing pile of overproduced pap which only serves to make techno more of a narrowly enjoyable genre. 

 Bottom line is I don't care how much effort you or anyone else puts into crafting a two second loop. All I care about is if the results are interesting, original and not overly generic. The techno acts I listed are capable of such things, but many aren't. 

 

Yea dance music is repetative but thats what its about, and if its so shit why is it so popular and why are people making lots of £ from it?

 Manufactured pop music is popular. Britpop is popular. Watered down US metal/rock/punk/shite is popular.  They're all popular because they're bought by people with very base tastes in music who will by what is thrust in their faces by the big corps.
 Also, as far as I know, real techno producers don't make that much dough from their records, especially not in the current conditions of the industry. Any dance music that does make a mint would be the contrived version that fits into the mindframe of the styles of pop I mentioned above. 

[Reply #81 on:]

^Heavy drums and bass in lots of layers, its just another way of saying simplicity works although its not very kind to the ears at 50K!

As to "the majority is talentless crap", your refering to the underground in which case so is your fan fics.  bitch!

[Reply #82 on:]

[Reply #83 on:]

cool 

[Reply #84 on:]

 

Originally posted by nerdlingus:
As to "the majority is talentless crap", your refering to the underground in which case so is your fan fics.  bitch!

It's hard to take techno purists seriously when they have to bring things down to this kind of level. 

[Reply #85 on:]

What Spiff said about drumming is quite true. Anything that can be played on a sampler can be played on a drumkit. Unless it is sped up beyond reason (in which case Pete Sandoval and that guy from Crytopsy could probably still play it). The thing about samping is that you lay it down very carefully, whereas a drummer plays right here and now. With a sampler, you can go back infinitely and say "no,m that doesn't go there" and just change it. Then you have everything laid out before you go on stage and the "live" element in concerts is this: "does he press 'play' now, or doesw he do it in a little while?".
A "real" drummer has to be able to actually hit the drums in real-time, he has to do his timing on the fly. This leaves room for improvisation and cool, groovy variations.
If someone laid down a beat as he went along, now that would be cool, but alas, this is rarely seen and therefore, the concept of a "live" concert with a techno band is mere bunk.

BUT- this doesn't mean that I'm all opposed to techno music (and other kinds of digitalized music stuff). There are quite a lot of bands I quite like, but this can wait until later. I will mention Mars Volta (without the 'The') They are an Italian electronica band of whom I know very little- Also, I cannot really describe their style. Just check it out.
And then there is the Danish band Under Byen (translates into Underneath The Cuty- you will all come to Roskilde Festival 2004 to listen to them). Again, I cannot explain the style, but this site has some samples...

[EDIT]...and there are good fanfics- Hoe!! (but a bundle of mediocre/horrible ones do persist.)[/EDIT]

[Reply #86 on:]

i read all the long posts on the last page and there's something i have to say to the people who think techno is better than a live drummer: so you think digital art is better than a hand-drawn art too? so artists should stop drawing by hand?
that's why i don't like when people who work only with computers call themselves "Artists". you're not a real artist if you can't draw by hand and you're not a real drummer if you can't play on a real drum kit.

[Reply #87 on:]

Well, art isn't defined by drawing/painting or whatever. It's about creativity. But I would say drumming is about actually hitting drums...

[Reply #88 on:]

The debate against drumming and sampling could go on forever! I have great respect for people that do either.  I produce very complex patterns and it would take about 10 drummers on 10 kits to replicate what i do, also with a shitload of effects and filtering !  I do agree with pikka bird about drumming on the fly, if you fuck up live in front of people its embarrising!!  My attitude is, if you can create a banging drum pattern that peep love and dance to, it doesnt matter what it was produced on, just as long as you done a good job.  People can slag me off all they like for producing music the way i do - but if you knew how much i earnt from remixing and producing it would soon shut you up !!!

[Reply #89 on:]

 

Originally posted by Mouse On Venus:
 It's hard to take techno purists seriously when they have to bring things down to this kind of level.   

Yeah, sorry about that, wasn't a good night yesterday. 
I do enjoy my fanfics if its any consolation and i enjoy dancing to techno, maybe as i get older though, my tastes might change. (i've been through worst phases but never climbed aboard a bandwagon i can safely say.)
 

[Reply #90 on:]

 

Originally posted by jammer:
People can slag me off all they like for producing music the way i do - but if you knew how much i earnt from remixing and producing it would soon shut you up !!!

Money is no indication of quality -- just look at the kind of lifestyle that Britney Spears and the like can afford.

To me, real drumming is far more impressive. It takes more guts and more practice in order to drum live, as opposed to working on a computer that allows you to simply "undo" a mistake. An audience is nowhere near so forgiving.

@Marg: I still can't grasp your narrow definition of visual art. Do you draw the same distinction beween someone who takes photos with film and someone who uses a digital camera? Is one less of a photographer than another? Both can and do use post-exposure/capture processes to affect their prints -- whether it be by a chemical in a darkroom, or by a tool in Photoshop. Likewise, what makes gripping a pencil and leaving graphite tracings on a paper so superior to gripping a mouse and leaving pixels on a digital canvas?

The ability to draw in "real life" is certainly more impressive, just as drumming with actual drums is, but I wouldn't exclude people who work in a strictly digital medium form being included under "artists".

[Reply #91 on:]

Yes true i agree about live drumming takes more guts and your quite right mistakes can be fixed on the pc.
That was not my debate on the matter.
As to quality and money, i do it cos i love doing it and it just happens to pay well, i wouldnt want the fame or the millions of britney "crap" spears.  Quality wise i must be doing something right or i wouldnt be approached by peep to remix there songs.

[Reply #92 on:]

Right on man, for the love of it, although you'll still get spat at for it.

Whats the world coming to eh?

On a positive note that isn't directly related; i just got an e mail saying my copy of Laurent Garniers Coloured City 12" has just been dispatched from Holland, blinding tune if i ever heard one ! RRUUUSSHHH!!   

[Reply #93 on:]

I personally prefer a human drummer to a machine. While yes the machine can produce so interesting beats and such. This however does not beat seeing an amazing drummer live.

At amny a concert it has not been unusual for the crowd to stop and marvel at the drummers skill as he burst into a solo. I also feel the human's limitations give the music more warmth.

[Reply #94 on:]

Gotta admit defeat there, watching a live band perform when there well into the music is a marvel to look at. 
Its mainly why i dont watch TOTP's.

But raves are good, I recommend them if your open minded enough (its good to be in an altered state of reality with loud music-any loud music)

[Reply #95 on:]

To those peep who think you can make a good groove just by "pressing a few buttons" obviously have never used a midi instrument or sequencer and know NOTHING about music production.  If you think you can make quality dance music with the factory sounds of drum machines etc then your so wrong.  I suggest you go buy an akai mpc2000 or emu sp1200 then tell me you can make a GOOD track just by "pressing buttons".  In honesty before i studied music and got to where i am today, i always thought yea, looks easy, press a few buttons and i will have a track instantly however after purchasing my first sampler/ synth and drum machine (years ago) i soon found it was not the case.  After studying recording,midi,sound engineering, synthesis i soon found theres more to it than meets the eye.  So these peep who press there buttons, please explain how you can do it and have a track worthy of chart succes simply by pressing buttons,  please tell me !!
Also the people who say you cant add the timing errors etc to sequencers also obviously dont know there sequencers inside and out, please go study midi for two years, learn how to control event controllers etc, then learn about attack, decay, sustain etc then tell me you cant add these errors and make it feel "live"
Fuck this shit, im a professional full time sound engineer/artist and some comments written about electronic production on here are complete bollocks.
I have great respect for live musicians and think its a shame its drifting all electronic, i choose to make my music my way as it suits my genre of music but whatever your method of production, live or electronic, to produce quality music is hard either way and nobody should moan or slag off how it was produced as both methods take time and great effort.
Like i say, whatever your method of music production, i respect you all and if you think its all about pressing buttons, go buy some kit, try it and good luck to ya !!!!!!!!!
Playing live is hard, sampling and getting it to sound right is also hard - this debate is never ending both methods require seperate skills.  I do agree that watching a live band is better than watching some chump on his own sat at a pc !!!! 

[Reply #96 on:]

 

Originally posted by jammer:
The debate against drumming and sampling could go on forever! I have great respect for people that do either.

first of all, i agree. the debate could go on forever and it wouldn't lead anywhere.

just to clear a few things up: i never attacked sampling or the use of drum computers in general. having tried sampling myself, i know that it's fucking hard to create an even decent sample and people who can create good electronic music have my respect.
however, an argument i heard (not necessarily here) by fans of electronic music was that real life instruments are out of date and that nowadays computers are the way to go, and while i'm a geek, i can't agree with this.

also, my point remains: it is harder to become a really good drummer than to become a really good dj. i'm not saying that you're sitting down for a few weeks, and bam, you're the god of all djs. but judging from your post, one could say after 4 years of studying it properly, you're pretty good. after 4 years of drumming, there's still lots of stuff you have to learn, which makes sense if you think about it: interfaces (be it computer-interfaces or the interface of studio equipment or whatever) are constantly evolving, people try to make them easier to handle. which is smart, because ideally, one should be busy making music and not busy figuring out how to make that music. with drums however, there's a limit to this. at some point, it depends on the individual and even if you practice a lot, it just takes a lot of time to learn to get the coordination down and so on. not to mention, being able to come up with a great beat, then play it a few times, remember it and being able to write it down.

[Reply #97 on:]

Well i would like to see live instruments stick around and i would say NO WAY there out of date compared to pc's.  What these people dont realise is that the majority of sounds/samples they use on there pc's were originally recorded from real live instruments.  You also now have the huge debate over midi hardware (samplers synths etc) against software samplers synths etc, where will it ever end!  My attitude is just produce the way works best for you and dont listen to the media.
I agree that its harder to play an instrument than mix on your decks as once youve mastered mixing thats it, done, where like you say with drums, once youve learned how to play, a huge doorway has opened.

[Reply #98 on:]

Woo! Finally, someone who understands the beauty of electronic music, and a professional sound engineer to top it off. I've only started to mix music on my decks, and I can tell you, it sure is hard. I could further debate on the pros of electronic music, but I guess I'll just leave it to the pros.

[Reply #99 on:]

No MrMayat dont leave it to the pro's !! Everyone has there opinion which is always good to listen to!
Good luck with the mixing man, stick at it !!

[Reply #100 on:]

The thing I've noticed with electronic drumming though, in dance music at least, is that it has to be repetitive to get people into the groove. The electronic drum machines could create complex triplety swing patterns that really screw with the time, but it'd never fit with the music and it'd be nigh on impossible to dance to.

I've been learning funk patterns in my drum lessons recently and the thing which has become very evident is that whilst funk drumming does have some interesting patterns in it, they repeat them over and over and over ad nauseum so you can get into the groove and the feel, thus you can start dancing. Also that kind of beat wouldn't be possible to mix to. I might record myself some time soon really screwing with the time on my kit.

[Reply #101 on:]

You know, I have decks. I just got bored with the formulaic nature of a lot of dance music and now I just play whatever I feel, which ranges from techno to abstract hip-hop to dub to Jimi Hendrix and beyond.

[Reply #102 on:]

I enjoy techno, trance, and electronica.

Like... Paul van Dyk, paul oekanfield, and the happy hardcore compilations.

[Reply #103 on:]

Isn't his name Paul Okenfold? He's made of bile and skinflakes.
Mouse on Venus has the right angle- don't limit yourself.

[Reply #104 on:]

No, it's Oakenfold. But he does deserve to have his name spelt badly, so go ahead. 

[Reply #105 on:]

Owhkønphowlt

[Reply #106 on:]

I said badly. 

I actually have bought a few Okeyfolld remixes and compilations in my time. His mix of "Planet Rock" actually wasn't as bad as it should've been. I didn't buy his album though, thank god. 

[Reply #107 on:]

Tell me something- what makes Ibiza music such as Ohkonfålt and DeeJay Tee-æstø so appealing. The so-called music suggests "WeeHoo! Let's gouge out our skulls with these little white things!"
Every time I see some footage from the hip clubbing scene, I thank the greater powers that I am not the kind of person who thinks this stuff is even remotely cool. I mean- they look like dorks, they dance like donkeys, think like llamas and generally act like wildebeest.

[Reply #108 on:]

Bomb Ibiza.

[Reply #109 on:]

Carpet bomb Ibiza. Yay! Finally- A cause.

A(nother) thing I really despise about that place, is that the people who frequent that ifested island actually think they have invented every aspect of electronic music. Chill-Out was there before they med up that disgusting label. Other musicians had discovered that electronic samples and low-key beats, etc. could be relaxing instead of mindblow-inducing. And the rave culture... oh no- it's not from there. I don't remember where it started, but it wasn't there.

[Reply #110 on:]

I don't know if the people who frequent that island actually believe they invented that stuff. I know the media who cashed in on the concept hope people think they do, but... 

And as for Oakendolf and Tiestonails, don't ask me! It's like all contrived music made for the commercial market: the people who are into it aren't the sort of people who question anything in the slightest.

[Reply #111 on:]

And that's why I fear the future of mankind. The culture is stupifying- with the pills and whatnot, and it is ever-growing. Those people think the fun they had the night before is reversely propertional to the amount of stuff they can remember.
1:"What' ya do last nite, d00d?"
2:"I dunno- can't mememba"
1:"Sounds like hellafunny shite rite there, d00d!"

Don't contradict me, I will take this opinion to the grave.

[Reply #112 on:]

Is it really ever growing? I could've sworn that clubland hit a bit of a commercial peak around 2000/2001 and has become a bit less dominant these days. But meh, if you apparently know about it inside out...

[Reply #113 on:]

I have only been to one of those discos twice, and that was because some of my friends rented it for a birthday. But as soon as that was over and all the regulars started pouring in, I darted off. Maybe the original British clubbing scene has peaked, but in Denmark, it has gotten a renaissance in a fishing town called Løkken. Drinking, loud bass, one-night-stands and first and foremost- ecstasy. Mmmmm. What a great set of values.
I really hope this will eat itself up from the inside and not taint the reputation of the more serious and innovative branches of electronic music.

[Reply #114 on:]

I think the reputations have already been tainted to be honest. You've seen how many people in this thread haven't got a clue what techno means, why should other electronic avenues be any different? It just makes it all the more rewarding for the minority who discover the great music.

[Reply #115 on:]

Yeah , the dance culture has subsided, its abit of a pain but then with the amount of commercial nonsense and cash in's its abit of a bonus, driving the main scene underground again.
But I dont need to take ectasy to enjoy it, i know cos i dont (or haven't done since i was about 17ish), maybe a couple of beers to get that booty shaking then i'm off!!
But it aint to bad, yeah we look abit funny dancing but then so do most people, unless, say, you do it professionally or like abit of salsa.
Also there is never any aggro in a techno event like a hip hop or drum n bass night (check the london scene  ) so it makes it a nice experience for the night.

Gotta agree about bombing ibiza, thats where it started and where it shall end - i dont like commerciallism (is that a word?) so thats why i got abit flustered when faithless was mentioned in this thread, nevermind though.

Mouse on Venus, you got any mixes up? I like my eclectic stuff, be interested in hearing.

As for the loops being ultra repetitive I always think of the tribesmen in africa etc that have these traditional dances around a fire for hours on end to the same beat and sometimes on hallucegenic (sp) drugs and with todays techno using more and more tribally drum sounds and sampling afrobeats i think its a good comparison.
Maybe i should pack my decks for the jungle... 

[Reply #116 on:]

I have to say, I am partial to a bit of Kraftwerk now and then. Latest album wasnt much good though...

[Reply #117 on:]

I don't mind a bit of techno....couldn't listen to it all day though....
Like all music genres, there's always one or two songs that grab you, even if that particular genre isn't normally your thing....
I've heard one or two techno songs that were really catchy and I liked them....same with dance music....some good some not....

[Reply #118 on:]

   

Originally posted by Gleno:

I've heard one or two techno songs that were really catchy and I liked them....same with dance music....some good some not....

I dont want to cause offence here but...

....in my opinion *cough* techno should not have lyrics or song to it, it might have the odd vocal sample but definately not lyrics. Instrumentals is another reason I get attached to the dance genre (dance being a very broad term!) It  doesnt force someone else's perception of that song on to you, admittingly I do enjoy songs, but techno is about what
you experience while listening to it.
Thats why I tend to see Trance as a make believe genre, there is alot of music out there which can also make you think.

I hope this makes sense cos i'm having trouble myself now!

EDIT : I must edit my posts atleast 2-3times before i've ironed out my mistakes and i still cant do my grammer right! should've paid attention in class I guess.

[Reply #119 on:]

 

Originally posted by nerdlingus:
....in my opinion *cough* techno should not have lyrics or song to it, it might have the odd vocal sample but definately not lyrics.

 Well I think the two main problems with having vocals in techno is that 1: most techno is too stiff to accomodate fluid vocals and 2: most techno producers couldn't write decent lyrics for toffee. But if you look at classic tunes like New Order's "Blue Monday" or some of Underworld's stuff for example, there are exceptions, even if the purists might not consider them to be techno. I don't necessarily think that vocals don't belong in techno, just that it requires someone special to make them work.

 

Mouse on Venus, you got any mixes up? I like my eclectic stuff, be interested in hearing. 

 Not a present, though I'm working on a doozy. I got myself a Pioneer CDJ800 to go with my Numark TT-1650's now, so the only excuse I have for not having done a kickass mix yet is laziness.