How many times has this thread and its previous incarnations played host to this 'does love exist?' crap?
It's all been done...

With only scientific evidence at one's disposal, because faith is an illogical irrelevancy, one would have to conclude that love is a self-delusional biological mechanism and nothing more.
However the enlightened mind acknowledges that it can never truly know anything beyond the shadow of a doubt, and a scientific mind unburdened by the the blight of arrogance knows that there's always more to learn.
That said, I'll take the same stance on love as I do with God and say: I have no way of knowing so I won't say for certain either way... and who really cares anyway?

*pulls out hospital bed translating machine*
 

     "Yes, and the right side has always won. And always shall. And if you want a cheap way out of your own arguments, don't use nonsensical twaddle such as 'enlightened mind' intellectual poppycock and 'shadow of a doubt' obscurantist drivel. The door to the outside is free, and there's your snow to be shoveled. And you can forget about getting paid! As for me, I've gotta keep clapping. It seems I'm Tinkerbell's last hope."
     translates to:
     "Too many painkillers."

 

he can't be too ill, because he just made another famous long post. 

Ok, enuf of this 'Is love real' crap. Its taking away what this thread is dedicated to. Love is real to people in their own way. There. 'Nuf said. Oh yeah, and welcome aboard, Xanfor 

I can't help but think about Fry&Leela most of the time.. It makes me want to put together something special to me in my own way.. like a fanfic or something. I hate trying to put my idea's on paper, because I am my own worst critic..., but regardless. Im sure alot of us are our own worst critics.. hehe. Ok. back to trolling..

 

Originally posted by Coldangel_1: Lots

Cool. A bit post-Watershed, to be sure, but still. Very solid, your point comes across clearly and concisely... nine out of ten for effort, definitely... I give you a 'A-'.

 

But I wouldn't recommend continuing to infer that I'm at fault because I'm smarter than you, went to school and learned, and you can't understand what I say.

 

However the enlightened mind acknowledges that it can never truly know anything beyond the shadow of a doubt, and a scientific mind unburdened by the the blight of arrogance knows that there's always more to learn.

Fascinating what they teach at these schools these days. Funny, I never thought addition would leave the syllabus... Now look here: 'The enlightened mind acknowledges that it can never truly know anything beyond the shadow of a doubt' + 'a scientific mind unburdened by the the blight of arrogance knows that there's always more to learn' = not only can we never be sure that Emerald City is anything but a mirage, but the Yellow Brick Road is infinitely long!

I'd like to meet 'a scientific mind unburdened by the the blight of arrogance'. I'd bring some Charlie Chaplin films to help him cheer up his depressing life.

 

If you had a brain in your damn head you'd see I wasn't making an argument for or against, but rather merely demonstrating the pointlessness of the argument itself, dickweed. It's gotten boring.

Boring? Boring?        

 

I have no way of knowing so I won't say for certain either way... and who really cares anyway?

We do! My friend, my friend... Debating over points that are both pointfull and pointless is the cornerstone of human existence! If we had nothing to throw ourselves against, we'd all wither away and die like Eloi. Challenges, obstacles, adversaries... Those are what brought this species to the state of fine living it is at today. Defeating the undefeatable! Solving the unsolvable! Triumphing over the pointless! And this is not genetic-- it's evolutionary. Logic (which I do use at times) suggests to me that you only find it boring because you also find it insignificant. Really. Until one lowers oneself from their viewpoint of total and absolute perspective and into the level of us mere mortals, of course all our trivial concerns and petty scutterings will be effectively pointless.

One must, as a human, have a healthy desire to know and see everything in this total and absolute perspective. One also must, as a human, never obtain this. Even if it means creating our own hurdles to overcome.

Because we are humans. We may want to be more, but we are, and ever shall be for the foreseeable future, humans. And in order to live life to it's maximum potential, we must see life as humans. We don't need to be ignorant of other views, of course. That would just be plain imbecilic. But we must remember our place.

 

A damn fool is what you are. 'Twaddle', 'poppycock', and 'drivel', followed by some random shit about a fairy, eh? That'd be ironic if it wasn't so bent.

I admit, 'drivel' was a harsh term. I apologize. However, no insult was ever intended. In fact, the so-called 'random shit about a fairy' was poking fun at myself. Read 'Peter Pan', and pay particular attention to the part where Tinkerbell saves Peter's life by drinking the poison.

Incidentally, iron is still iron no matter how much it's bent.

 

How many times has this thread and its previous incarnations played host to this 'does love exist?' crap?
It's all been done...

Sure it has. But tell me... Have you eaten today? Have you inhaled air? If you did, was it because what you ate and inhaled yesterday was no good?

 

With only scientific evidence at one's disposal, because faith is an illogical irrelevancy, one would have to conclude that love is a self-delusional biological mechanism and nothing more.

And now, we come to my grand finale. The conclusion you come to above relies on scientific evidence, correct? But surely, for the conclusion to be valid, mustn't one have faith in the scientific evidence?

 

There, that dumbed-down enough for ya?

Meh. Trailing conclusion. Make that grade a 'B+'.   


Today I begin to understand what love must be, if it exists... When we are parted, we each feel the lack of the other half of ourselves. We are incomplete like a book in two volumes of which the first has been lost. That is what I imagine love to be: incompleteness in absence.  ~ Edmond de Goncourt (1822-96) and Jules de Goncourt (1830-70), French writers. 'The Goncourt Journals' (1888-96; repr. in Pages from the Goncourt Journal, ed. by Robert Baldick, 1962), entry for 15 November, 1859

I've made the most important discovery of my life. It's only in the mysterious equation of love that any logical reasons can be found.  ~ John Forbes Nash, in 'A Beautiful Mind'

Omnia vincit amor; et nos cedamus amori.  ~ Virgil

Love is the answer, but while you're waiting for the answer, sex raises some pretty interesting questions.  ~ Woody Allen

Disclaimer: This post, as with every post of Xanfor's, contains absolutely no hard feelings. Any so perceived are merely misinterpreted banter.

 

If you want a cheap way out of your own arguments, don't use nonsensical twaddle such as 'cornerstone of human existence' intellectual poppycock and 'absolute perspective' obscurantist drivel.

Now you're gettin' the hang of it! But do drop the vernacular. It doesn't suit you.

 

My point was that it's a question without an answer; like 'does God exist' - you just go round and round in circles and never get anywhere. We've all heard the arguments, and nothing can be gained by hearing them again. I despise retreading the same ground over and over ad nauseum, and in my opinion it's better for people to form their own opinions and acknowledge there's no reasonable way to support those opinions in discourse. To attempt it will always be an unprofitable exercise, and a carbon copy of the same old hackneyed argument.

Minor flaws, I believe... True, the whole 'love' bit has no real answer... To tell the truth it's quite probably different for every individual. However, you can't say that retreading the same ground is an unprofitable exercise. Especially if you take different steps. There are people new to this debate. Let them learn from the conflicting sides. Then let them decide for themselves.

 

My understanding of The Time Machine is such that the Eloi were the decadent upper class living with the luxury of endless cyclic contemplation of the kind you're advocating, which led them to become physically and mentally atrophied and useless as beings - ripe for the plucking.

The Eloi didn't contemplate anything... They solved all of life's problems and hencely became 'physically and mentally atrophied and useless as beings'. They had no more challenges, no more hurdles, no tsuris at all. No exercise... And they withered.

 

You quoted my reference to scientific evidence without its accompanying passage acknowledging the limitations of evidence. Case in point - I have faith in nothing, because logically nothing can be shown as infallible.

That I did! I was wondering if you'd notice. Although, if 'logically nothing can be shown as infallible', surely logic itself can not be shown as infallible?

 

Also: pontificating about the ascent of humanity to some imagined lofty height and then suggesting I should 'lower' myself is something of a contridiction. Pick one and stick with it: are we to be Gods, or petty provincial neanderthals rutting in the dirt? Because simple inertia will mean that any middle-ground between the two is purely transitory.

I was suggesting three seperate levels: Uncivilized Neanderthals; Civilized Humans; and Omniscient. Lower your attempted perspective down to 'Civilized Humans' and you'll relate. Know there is more, know there is an 'Omniscient' viewpoint, but don't set your life beliefs on it. Because we never will be 'Omniscient', you understand. We will never see things from that angle during this life. And one shouldn't found one's life beliefs on something one will never be able to see or comprehend.

So in conclusion, I believe the debate should commence, lest we lose our faith. Our faith in people. Our faith in love. Our faith in... Say, Coldy, if you've no faith, what's with being a shipper, eh? Ha! You're cornered now!

Too much fighting, not enough shipping. I suggest a song that fits with how  Leela acts quite well. Ready, now SING!

'I Won't Say I'm In Love'

[Leela:]
If there's a prize for rotten judgement
I guess I've already won that
No man is worth the aggravation
That's ancient history, been there, done that!

[Amy, Bender, Hermes:] Who'd'ya think you're kiddin'
He's the Earth and heaven to you
Try to keep it hidden
Honey, we can see right through you
Girl, ya can't conceal it
We know how ya feel and
Who you're thinking of

[Leela:]
No chance, no way
I won't say it, no, no

[Amy, Bender, Hermes:]
You swoon, you sigh
why deny it, uh-oh

[Leela:]
It's too cliche
I won't say I'm in love

I thought my heart had learned its lesson
It feels so good when you start out
My head is screaming get a grip, girl
Unless you're dying to cry your heart out
Oh

[Amy, Bender, Hermes:]
You keep on denying
Who you are and how you're feeling
Baby, we're not buying
Hon, we saw ya hit the ceiling
Face it like a grown-up
When ya gonna own up
That ya got, got, got it bad

[Leela:]
No chance, now way
I won't say it, no, no

[Amy, Bender, Hermes:]
Give up, give in
Check the grin you're in love

[Leela:]
This scene won't play,
I won't say I'm in love

[Amy, Bender, Hermes:]
You're doin flips read our lips
You're in love

[Leela:]
You're way off base
I won't say it
Get off my case
I won't say it

[Amy, Bender, Hermes:]
Girl, don't be proud
It's O.K. you're in love

[Leela:]
Oooooh
At least out loud,
I won't say I'm in love

This is depressing. Is this what it means to be a PEELer?  To flame each other when different views are established against one another? No matter what I'm doing, I think about pics like these....

... and the idea's behind it, and it always makes me smile, no matter what. The Leela&Fry ship is probably one of the most priceless things I have come to known.., and isn't that what this topic is supposed to be about? Somewhere along those lines? Yet, if there indeed needs to be a FlameWar, then don't expect me to be apart of it...

Five points for jle1993!

 

Originally posted by jle1993:
NOOO, don't draw attention back to the argument! Sing! Sing for shippiness!

I'm all for 'shipping'!

Singing? No.
You wouldn't like what comes out'ta my throat when I try "singing." 
Which has been unfavorably compared to a shrieking jet engine...
I would, however, be willing to howl... 

   

Originally posted by Cold, oh so cold, _1:

Shipper? I just like boobs

And you're back [to your usual self]. Instincts and hormones all back to usual levels, I presume?

   

Logic is as fallible as the mind which employs it. Only the concept is perfect, as perfection only exists in conceptual form.

So, you must have faith in the mind which employs it! And tell me... How can one judge 'perfection'?

   

I dunno why you pegged me as omniscient, by the way, but I'm flattered. As for your 'civilized humans' who slaughter one another and produce boy bands, I do prefer to position myself... let's say 'off to one side' as opposed to 'above'.

I slaughter no one. I was refering to the lavel of rationality at which we can slaughter one another and produce boy bands. Obviously, since you can cogitate these concepts, you're at this level as well.

And when I was saying that you mustn't attempt to see things 'omnisciently', I meant from 'off to one side'. From an 'objective, all-encompassing viewpoint'. One musn't do this.

   

"Never will be" sounds like giving up.

You expect your species to have free-reign over the entire universes and all their knowledge within your lifetime? You've more optimism than I!

   

Originally posted by MP3er:

This is depressing. Is this what it means to be a PEELer? To flame each other when different views are established against one another?... ...The Leela&Fry ship is probably one of the most priceless things I have come to known.., and isn't that what this topic is supposed to be about? Somewhere along those lines? Yet, if there indeed needs to be a FlameWar, then don't expect me to be apart of it...

No one's flaming anyone. The napalm is staying safely under my bed, from which it hasn't moved since Dorothy Parker last knocked on my door. We (Coldangle and I) are merely having one of our periodic obligatory debates in which we deliberate the instrumentality of debating.

So that you, yes, you... The Citizens of PEEL and Denizens of the PEELian Shipper's Front... Can continue having friendly and logically consistent discussions on whether or not love exists, without interjections on the pointlessness of it all.

(Applause)

   

Originally posted by Jelly1993:

NOOO, don't draw attention back to the argument! Sing! Sing for shippiness!

I'll sing when I'm good and ready!

...

Ok, I'm ready.


(Very slow piano vamp)

I know there's something in the wake of your smile...
I get a notion from the look in your eyes.
You've built a love but that love falls apart...
Your little piece of heaven, turns too dark...

Listen to your heart...
When he's calling for you.
Listen to your heart...
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going.
And I don't know why.
But listen to your heart...
Before, you tell him goodbye...

Sometimes you wonder if this fight is worthwhile...
The precious moments are all lost in the tide.
They're swept away and nothing is what is seems...
The feeling of belonging, to your dreams...

Listen to your heart...
When he's calling for you.
Listen to your heart...
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going.
And I don't know why.
But listen to your heart...
Before, you tell him goodbye...

And there are voices, that want to be heard...
So much to mention, but you can't find the words...
The scent of magic, the beauty that's been...
When love was wilder, than the wind...

Listen to your heart...
When he's calling for you.
Listen to your heart...
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going.
And I don't know why.
But listen to your heart...
Before, you tell him goodbye...

*claps*
Thank you to Xanfor and Coldangel for their wondeful songs. I now suggest a duet.
*evil grin*
So give it up for Xanfor and Coldangel, singing for the ship tonight: Together Forever!

*starts music* Sock it to 'em guys!

Xanfor:
If there's anything you need
All you have to do is say
You knew you satisfy everything in me
We shouldn't waste a single day

Coldy:
So don't stop me falling
It's destiny calling
A power I just can't deny
It's never changing
Can't you hear me, I'm saying
I want you for the rest of my life

Both:
Together forever and never to part
Together forever we two
And don't you know
I would move heaven and earth
To be together forever with you

Coldy:
If they ever get you down
There's always something I can do
Because I wouldn't ever wanna see you frown
I'll always do what's best for you

Xanfor:
There ain't no mistaking
It's true love we're making
Something to last for all time
It's never changing
Can't you hear me, I'm saying
I want you for the rest of my life

Both:
Together forever and never to part
Together forever we two
And don't you know
I would move heaven and earth
To be together forever with you

So don't stop me falling
It's destiny calling
A power I just can't deny
It's never changing
Can't you hear me, I'm saying
I want you for the rest of my life

Together forever and never to part
Together forever we two
And don't you know
I would move heaven and earth
To be together forever with you

I'm asexual, Jle. Not gay. 

(Setting: Exterior of court house. Fry dejectedly walks down the stairs. Suddenly there's a time skip, and he finds himself at the bottom of the steps. He sits down sadly. A divorce certificate flutters to the ground. Bellefire fades in...)

I hear you're taking the town again.
Having a good time, with all your good time friends.
I don't think that you think of me...
You're on your own now.
And I'm alone and free.
I know that I should get on with my life...
But a life without you could never be right,

As long as the stars shine down,
from the heavens...
Long as the rivers run to the sea...
I'll never get over you, getting over me...

I try to smile so the hurt won't show.
Tell everybody I was glad to see you go.
But the tears just won't go away...
Loneliness found me, looks like it's here to stay.
I know that I ought to find someone new...
But all I find is myself always thinking of you...

As long as the stars shine down,
from the heavens...
Long as the rivers run to the sea...
I'll never get over you, getting over me...

No matter what I do,
each night's a lifetime, to live through,
I can't go on like this-
I need your touch...
You're the only one I'll ever love...

And as long as the stars shine down,
from the heavens...
Long as the rivers run to the sea...
I'll never get over you, getting over me-
I'll never get over you, getting over me-,
Never get over you, getting over...

I'll never get over you, getting over... Me...

 

Originally posted by jle1993:

I never said you were gay did I? I asked you two to sing that song, as it suits the ship, as you both sound wonderful. You're the one mentioning gayness.

Yeah, but you made it sound as though we were singing it to each other. Details, little details!

 

Nice song by the way, very sad, but nice...

oooh, and something happened yesterday.

Show spoiler

There was this girl, who I didn't know but thought was cute, and my friend told her I said she was cute, so she kissed me. She kissed me! I feel all happy.

Alright, apologies all 'round. I'll perform all the duets you want. Got any Martina McBride, by any chance?

Nice, jle. There, now don't you feel good about yourself? Always works for me, the welcoming lips of a lady. And I'm comfortable enough with that not to bother analysing it.

It was Jessica.
It's always Jessica.

Yeah, I mean, how do you guys think of this stuff?