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Author Topic: Angel cancelled  (Read 786 times)
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Stuart B

Starship Captain
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« Reply #40 on: 02-20-2004 13:03 »
« Last Edit on: 02-20-2004 13:03 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by PCC Fred:
How does a show attract viewers when it's constantly referring to events from previous episodes? Many people won't have the patience to try and pick up the story strands.

Oh I dunno, look at the amount of people that watch godawful shite like Coranation Street, Eastenders et al. People are prepared to invest the mental agility to follow ever more contrived soap plots but when confronted with a SciFi show asking the same involvement they just can't be bothered.

EDIT: Woo! TOTP Shuffle!
Allen

Professor
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« Reply #41 on: 02-20-2004 15:38 »
« Last Edit on: 02-20-2004 15:38 »

Watched last Wednesday's episode. Pure gold. Absolutely hilarious! Joss was right, they are hitting their stride. I'm very appreciative of the stand-alone eps with just a hint of something bigger going on behind the scenes. Last season was essentially one long episode. I missed a few and was majorally bummed by it. But this is a season that you can pick and choose and not fall behind too much. BTW, all you naysayers of the show, I respect your opinion to the extent the law requires, but I don't like them.  smile

The characters on Angel have/had grown since they left Buffy and they're better for it. I love Wesley's character more now than I did on Buffy. In fact I hated him on Buffy. He made Giles look like a party animal.

Cordelia is NOT one-sided anymore. On Buffy she was a snot who got mixed up in the battle between things that go bump in the night. She adapted well to life on Angel and soon she was slaying just as well as the rest of them. There are signs that her old self still lingers, but no one can completely do a 180 on personality.

As the star of the show, we got more depth to Angel. On Buffy he was just a vamp with a soul. On his own show, he became so much more. Season 2 taught him (and us) that having a soul doesn't automatically make you good. It's a choice you have to make every day. There's tons of bad stuff out there that makes you want to give in. You have to fight for it.

He also had a kid. Personally, I hate the direction they went with that, but you can't have a baby on a show like that for long. If he could have just accepted what happened and moved on, but noo! The kid's more broody than dear old dad  wink

This season is/was a special treat because Spike came back. If anyone deserved to come back from Buffy, it was Spike. Fortunately Spike did most of his growing on Buffy. It is regrettable that they're canceling Angel because he hasn't been used much of late and we won't get to see if he can grow anymore than he already has.

Man, that was a long post, but I felt I had to talk about what made Angel great. One last thing that made the show truly great is that there was no strict black and white. Unlike most of Buffy, there are good demons. Evil is just as hard to make out just as in the real world. I realize that Buffy had good demons too, but this wasn't apparent off the bat.
Venus

Urban Legend
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« Reply #42 on: 02-20-2004 17:03 »
« Last Edit on: 02-20-2004 17:03 »

You know who i would have loved to have seen move from Buffy to Angel? Clem. I love Clem. The world needs much more Clem.

PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #43 on: 02-20-2004 18:40 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Stuart B:
  Oh I dunno, look at the amount of people that watch godawful shite like Coranation Street, Eastenders et al. People are prepared to invest the mental agility to follow ever more contrived soap plots but when confronted with a SciFi show asking the same involvement they just can't be bothered.

But in soap operas, the story arcs are moronically simple.  X is married to Y and having an affair with Z.  A owes B drug money, so B is blackmailing A.  Not exactly Babylon 5, is it?
Lurrr

Professor
*
« Reply #44 on: 02-20-2004 19:53 »

 
Quote
Oh I dunno, look at the amount of people that watch godawful shite like Coranation Street, Eastenders et al. People are prepared to invest the mental agility to follow ever more contrived soap plots but when confronted with a SciFi show asking the same involvement they just can't be bothered.

A couple of things to bear in mind about soaps:

1) They are exposition heavy. There is always one character who spends most of the episode saying "And it looks like Audrey may really be alive, even though we thought she was run over by her schizophrenic transexual ex-husband last week."

2) There are at least two episodes of a given soap a week meaning that you can quickly catch up with what's going on (that is, if you missed all the coverage in the Radio Times  roll eyes )

3) Soaps are not stuck in crappy timeslots.

4) Soaps, despite being stupidly complicated at times, never deal with parallel universes, temporal paradoxes, clones, etc.

I remember Joe Straczynski saying on a Babylon 5 commentary that if he could write the series again he would get rid of a lot of the exposition and just rely on the audience having seen the previous episodes. Which is where Farscape fell down. Most mainstream TV viewers don't want to have to actually think, they want to just switch off and have everything beamed into their heads.

I've never watched Angel and only saw a couple of episodes of Buffy which didn't grab me at all so I have no strong opinion one way or the other. I will say that the loss of Angel will only mean even more time for the networks to show yet another reality show, or an extra episode of Eastenders.

 
Quote
no it's not a photoshop. In next weeks ep Angel will be turned into a puppet. This will either be very very lame or very very funny. I'm not sure yet.

Really? I might actually watch that...
PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #45 on: 02-20-2004 20:03 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Lurrr:
I remember Joe Straczynski saying on a Babylon 5 commentary that if he could write the series again he would get rid of a lot of the exposition and just rely on the audience having seen the previous episodes. Which is where Farscape fell down. Most mainstream TV viewers don't want to have to actually think, they want to just switch off and have everything beamed into their heads.

I consider myself a far more dedicated TV viewer than most people, but I tried getting into Farscape during it's third season, but gave up because it was too confusing.

Maybe all these JMS wannabes may want to consider that most successful sci-fis - The Twilight Zone, the early X-Files and the first two Star Treks - consisted mostly of stand-alone episodes.

Other sci-fis may have been cleverer, but they didn't get enough people off their tractors.
Lurrr

Professor
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« Reply #46 on: 02-21-2004 08:10 »

I personally love Farscape but I do realise that it's difficult to get into if you haven't watched it right from the beginning. It pays to be a dedicated viewer but I doubt most people (in general, not just sci-fi fans) take their television that seriously. If it doesn't grab you from the word go most people won't stick with it. Farscape was the extreme of that in that if you didn't watch every episode you could easily get lost.

With Babylon 5 there were times when characters would be explaining what's going on simply to benefit short-term viewers. Although it helped them, to long term viewers it just took time away from seeing the White Star blowing shit up. It didn't make it a worse serious, but it's the only complaint I have when re-watching the series now.

Watching Star Trek: TNG again lately has also made me realise the benefits in having some good quality standalone episodes. If a series like that could rely totally on individual stories and maintain a consistently high quality output throughout most of its run then today's writers must be running out of steam.
David A

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #47 on: 02-21-2004 08:36 »

There's an important difference between Farscape and Babylon 5 though.  Farscape was shown on the Sci-Fi Channel.  Babylon 5 (until it moved to TNT for the fifth season) was shown on network television.

It's more resonable to assume that the average viewer of a program shown on Sci-Fi is a dedicated fan who watches every week.  A program on network television is going to have a higher number of casual viewers.

Speak softly. Drive a Sherman tank.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #48 on: 02-21-2004 13:34 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Lurrr:
Watching Star Trek: TNG again lately has also made me realise the benefits in having some good quality standalone episodes. If a series like that could rely totally on individual stories and maintain a consistently high quality output throughout most of its run then today's writers must be running out of steam.

The trouble is that many in the sci-fi community seem to have forgotten just how good TNG was.  How many sci-fis have had an Emmy nomination for Best Drama?  And when the final episode aired in America, it made the national news in Britain!

But since Babylon 5's success, and the disasters of Voyager and Enterprise, most sci-fi writers, critics and fans seem to think that over-complicated story arcs are the ONLY way to make sci-fi good.  Which is a load of shit.
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
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« Reply #49 on: 02-21-2004 16:17 »

But they're probably the most effective way to prevent from network interference (which is what dooms most shows (not just sci-fi ones)).

If the producers can come back and say, "We've already got a plot worked out and we know where we're going" then they can argue against interference. But if the show is deliberately episodic then the execs can insist on changes.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #50 on: 02-21-2004 19:23 »

Personally I don't think a story arc would neccessarily stop network execs from trying to interfere with a show.  And don't forget, if the network can't control the show, they can always use the axe as a last resort.

TNG had the right idea by going straight to syndication.  This gave the writers a lot more freedom to write about what they wanted.
Allen

Professor
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« Reply #51 on: 05-19-2004 22:16 »

Well this hasn't been posted in for months. I raise this dead thread with an ironic twist: The show aired its last episode tonight. It was a doozy of one too. A lot of series have ended on sickeningly sweet notes. This one went out the way it came in: fighting. I will say that I wish we could have a glimpse of what the show would have been after this ep as major changes occurred.

Oh well. At least we had some quality programming for five years and all you naysayers can go stuff it wink

I will miss the show and I hope to see another Whedon inspired show again soon.
~FazeShift~

Moderator
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #52 on: 05-19-2004 22:51 »

Aw man!  cry

Makes me wish I followed the last dozen episodes, I caught one episode recently where Conor came back, and Fred had blue hair and a sexy ensemble going on and I didn't know why...
Oh well, repeats should sort that out eventually!  smile
Kryten

Space Pope
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« Reply #53 on: 05-20-2004 00:11 »

Great, great ending. Very Magnificent Seven-y.
SlackJawedMoron

Urban Legend
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« Reply #54 on: 05-20-2004 02:09 »

Seeing as Australia's only up to the puppet ep, I really wish I hadn't read that last post. Or knew anything about The Magnificent Seven.  frown

Curse me! Curse my mouse clicking finger of doom!
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #55 on: 05-20-2004 02:37 »

It was a very good series finale.  But it ends almost demanding a "To Be Continued"  almost movie-esque.  I was watching these last episodes very intently up until the sereis finale, I just can't believe its over.  I was more of a casual viewer and it kind of saddens and angers me that I didn't watch this show a little more.  Also didn't Buffy end not that long ago, why Angel so close in its footsteps? 

Anyways time for another spinoff......  roll eyes

"You're a bloody puppet!!!"
fryfanSpyOrama

Urban Legend
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« Reply #56 on: 05-20-2004 02:45 »
« Last Edit on: 05-20-2004 02:45 »

Good Riddance, another lousy show gone.  Friends, Frasier and now Angel.  Now if they could cancel Smallville, Enterprise, all reality shows and then bring back Futurama, TV would be much better than it is now.  I may sound mean, but when I hear about another popular show cancelled, it makes me feel better that I'm not the only one whose favorite show was cancelled. 

Also, except for Futurama, the shows I mentioned I find to be boring.      sleep
SlackJawedMoron

Urban Legend
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« Reply #57 on: 05-20-2004 02:55 »
« Last Edit on: 05-20-2004 02:55 »

Angel? Popular? Yeah, okay.

It never pulled ratings particularly grandiose ratings. It was definatly always a 'cult' show.

And while I find your lack of appreciation for a decent show sad, though not unreasonable, the apparent selfish glee you display to hear of it's demise, and the dissapointment that the news gives it's fans disgusts me. Oh well.

EDIT: Hey, I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm just annoyed at your attitude towards the people who do.
fryfanSpyOrama

Urban Legend
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« Reply #58 on: 05-20-2004 03:01 »
« Last Edit on: 05-20-2004 03:01 »

I'm one those people who is willing to say what he likes or hates.  If you like a show that I don't like, I have no problem with that, it shows that we are all human and we all like and hate different things. 

This thread shows my top ten most hated shows and others.
 http://www.peelified.com/cgi-bin/Futurama/14-001185/

I'm also willing to say Seinfield in overrated.
Lurrr

Professor
*
« Reply #59 on: 05-20-2004 07:37 »

I'm one of those people who doesn't understand the point of slagging off a show in front of all it's fans. But then again, I'm just full of crazy ideas!

I didn't watch Angel (and only watched a couple of episodes of Buffy) but it really is just another victim of the current obsession with soaps and reality shows. Whether I liked it or not, at least it showed some originality.

And i'm still after watching that episode with the puppet...
tom123

Starship Captain
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« Reply #60 on: 05-20-2004 07:58 »

I feel like a vampire turning to dust! That was a good show.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
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« Reply #61 on: 05-20-2004 09:44 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by fryfanSpyOrama:
I may sound mean, but when I hear about another popular show cancelled, it makes me feel better that I'm not the only one whose favorite show was cancelled.

You think YOU have problems?  I like Futurama, Friends, Frasier, Angel and Becker, and now the whole lot of 'em have been cancelled or ended!  frown

Next year my TV viewing will be made up of new shows that'll get axed after a year, and shows like the Simpsons and Stargate which used to be good but are now limping along.

And I like Fred with blue hair.  Then again, I liked her before she had blue hair...  love
Kryten

Space Pope
****
« Reply #62 on: 05-21-2004 01:06 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by fryfanSpyOrama:
Good Riddance, another lousy show gone.  Friends, Frasier and now Angel.  Now if they could cancel Smallville, Enterprise, all reality shows and then bring back Futurama, TV would be much better than it is now.  I may sound mean, but when I hear about another popular show cancelled, it makes me feel better that I'm not the only one whose favorite show was cancelled. 

Also, except for Futurama, the shows I mentioned I find to be boring.       sleep

There's this amazing new invention called a "remote control". You should look into one.
fryfanSpyOrama

Urban Legend
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« Reply #63 on: 05-21-2004 01:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Kryten:
 There's this amazing new invention called a "remote control". You should look into one.

I know about that invention, I also know about the invention of the DVD player, which is a good substitute over the crap they have on TV.
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #64 on: 05-21-2004 01:54 »

[Angel]Guess which one of those words you shouldn't have said?[/Angel]
SlackJawedMoron

Urban Legend
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« Reply #65 on: 05-21-2004 01:57 »

Just saw the puppet ep.

"Hey, man, you're ruining the show!"

*chop*

 laff
M0le

Space Pope
****
« Reply #66 on: 05-22-2004 05:32 »

I didn't see the puppet episode, but I saw the submarine guy one a while ago. I'm proud to say it's the only episode of Angel I've ever seen.
Ninaka

commandant cleavage
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #67 on: 05-23-2004 05:36 »

That puppet ep had me in stitches. So hilarious and creepy at the same time! It even got the attention of my older brother who had previously slagged me about being so obcessed with the buffy/angel series.
He actually found it easy to watch, and it was one of those episodes that wasn't too crucial in the whole story/plot of the season. Even though I missed the end of last season and subsequently the start of this season, I'm tuned in very intently, without feeling like I've missed too much - well sometimes I get a shock like when Andrew appeared a few eps ago. That was seriously cool... Anyway...

I also agree with Lurrr where people have a go at a show infront of all their fans. It's actually done some frustration when I have to go and read a whole thread to see what others think, and all I can see is "I never watched the show but based on my uneducated opinion blah blah blah" and "well it sucked anyway. Too bad".. I don't think that's not what this thread's here to encourage.
Thank goodness for people like Allen also. Who can reason it in such an eloquent way. Thanks guys for sticking up for Angel. It's definitely one of the greater shows on air.
SlackJawedMoron

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #68 on: 07-15-2004 10:02 »
« Last Edit on: 07-16-2004 00:00 »

Final Ep just aired in Aus.

It had me at times exhilerated, and would then bring me down into a deep funk (and not the bell-bottommed kind). By God, it kicked ass, despite the death of my favourite character, Wes (well, he was the most dead).

That was the most horrendously addictive show I've seen in a long time. I've now got an annoying void in my life. I need more good TV, dammit!
<Sigh>
Farewell, Angel, one of the last bastions of truley compelling Television...
Shaucker

Professor
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« Reply #69 on: 07-16-2004 08:40 »

Just a tidbit I learned from the TV guide: The people that brought you Buffy are bringing Buffy back...in cartoon form. Yep, the animated Buffy the Vampire Slayer...all the same people doing voices (mmmm Alyson Hannigan), but not Sarah Michelle Gellar.
Bones

Bending Unit
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« Reply #70 on: 07-16-2004 13:15 »

Ok, sorry if any of this has been said but i stopped reading when Allen started talking about the last ep cos i havent seen most of the series yet (roll on aug 23 for vids) but Allen, I'd just like to say your big rant earlier on was perfect, everything that i would have said. I love you xxx

I dont know what i'm gonna watch now cos ALL my fav shows have been cancelled.... oh yeah, i guess i can have family guy back, yay! not enough though  frown


Also-the worst show for blatent exposition is Charmed, but I still love it even though you always know whats gonna happen

Do you ever get the feeling you're just going with girls 'cos you're 'sposed to?
Tweek

UberMod
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #71 on: 07-16-2004 15:27 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Bones:

Also-the worst show for blatent exposition is Charmed, but I still love it even though you always know whats gonna happen

You mean you know you know they will show plenty of cleavage for most of the show  flirt

David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #72 on: 07-16-2004 16:32 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shaucker:
Yep, the animated Buffy the Vampire Slayer...all the same people doing voices (mmmm Alyson Hannigan), but not Sarah Michelle Gellar.

[Zoidberg]There's no part of that sentence that I didn't like.[/Zoidberg]

So, who's going to play Buffy?  Kristy Swanson?
~FazeShift~

Moderator
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #73 on: 07-16-2004 17:18 »

I saw the final episode a few weeks ago and I think I kinda liked it, it's a shame they had only a few episodes left to work with.
Strangely, I saw the Buffy final after the Angel one, and saw how rushed Angels ending was compared to Buffys.

"I'd like to take the dragon..."
SlackJawedMoron

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #74 on: 07-17-2004 13:08 »

Andrew was the best character! Have at thee!  tongue

And I know what you mean by the Angel finale being rushed. They worked well with what that had, though,  and I, for one, am happy with the result.

"I wish to cause more violence."  big grin
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