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Author Topic: HEAVY SPOILER WARNING: This is an in-depth discussion of The Matrix Reloaded  (Read 6775 times)
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LAN.gnome

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #160 on: 11-08-2003 00:30 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by El Zilcho:
"Wrote themselves into a corner"? What are you on? They were planning on these two movies (or at least a sequel of some sort) since the first movie. They didn't say "Hey, Matrix made a lot of money! Let's sequel-ize it!" It was planned.

I'm sure you're right. I'm also sure that I'm right, too. Confused? Don't be, the Wachoski's are just following in the footsteps of George Lucas.

George Lucas too planned out a whole series of episodic installments for Star Wars, coming to 9 in total. When he actually begain the process of making the films, he picked what he thought was the most interesting of the three trilogies.

But, since the movie could have turned out to be a flop, Lucas made sure to bring up all the elements he would be satisfied in covering were "Star Wars: A New Hope" to become the only filmed episode. This is why we get the 2nd, bigger Death Star in Return of the Jedi; the original plan was to space out much of the main story (rebels vs. the Death Star) over the three episodes of the middle trilogy.

I'd be willing to bet the Watchowskis did the same thing; in order to make a movie that would be satifying if it turned out to be the only part of their planned trilogy to be filmed, they had to bring up most of their best points.

Also, the sequel comment I made referred to the pumping-up of the action and special effects in the later two movies. I would not be at all surprised to find the original concepts for Reloaded and Revolutions to be more cerebral than the version that were filmed.
El Zilcho

Professor
*
« Reply #161 on: 11-08-2003 00:37 »

Alright, you're off the hook... for now.
DrThunder88

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #162 on: 11-08-2003 00:40 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:

as long as we're asking pointless questions I want to know who's the idiot who thinks walking on the ceiling can compare to the original Matrix effects.

Who the hell did those guys think they were?  Vampires?

I still don't understand the logic of those machines.  If Neo was dead, why would they honor a promise to not waste everyone in Zion?  I know if I were some sort of all-powerful mechano-head that controlled armies of squiggly killbots designed for one thing (killing, duh), I wouldn't hesitate to use them to destroy my squishy pink enemies after I had used one of them to destroy another thorn in my side.  That's the same kind of logic that would have permitted Cypher to rejoin the Matrix in the first film rather than killing him after exploiting him.  It's just not very mechanical.

This break in the machines' logic also confused me when it came time for the ending.  Why would the Architect keep a promise if he is, in fact, not as human as he claims?  The Oracle really wasn't holding anything over his head, forcing him into agreeing.  There is really nothing logical about honor, unless these machines were built with artificial nobility as well as intelligence.

I was also a bit confused by the interaction with the Indian family.  Why would any program program a program to have emotions?  I can see the inherent instabilities in such a scheme, I have to imagine that an artificial intelligence would see it too unless it was atificial stupid or artificial inebriated.  There's that wierd logic again.

My friend pointed out that the fact that Neo was the Matrix Jesus was sort of force-fed in the ending, and I have to agree, given his final body posture and the line about seeing him again.

Some notes/questions/comments:
  •   Can they make a Matrix movie without a pseudo-erotic rave scene?
  •   The final fight with Smith was way over the top.  Granted, the circumstances required a bigger fight than previous instances, but there has to be a line.  I was waiting for one of them to start breathing atomic fire or shooting laser eyebeams.
  • I hate the Mergovian.
  • Seriously, I hate him.
  • A hold-over question from the second film: You can upload anything you need into the Matrix except Kevlar vests and parachutes?
  • Why is hand-to-hand combat more effective against Neo than bullets?
  • Come on, Blane or whatever his name was sounded just like Smith.  How could anyone not tell it was him?
  • Damn that smarmy smartass Mergovian and his exceptionally hot wife.
  • Did Morpheus really need those red dots on his guns?  He really wasn't aiming.
  • I did think this movie was a bit more funny than the first two.  Keanu Reeves really must have stretched his acting hamstrings for the "Shit" line.
El Zilcho

Professor
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« Reply #163 on: 11-08-2003 00:46 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrThunder88:
My friend pointed out that the fact that Neo was the Matrix Jesus was sort of force-fed in the ending, and I have to agree, given his final body posture and the line about seeing him again.
Don't forget the cross-shaped lens flare when the machine was pumping Neo up, not to mention the fact that he died so everyone else could live.
LAN.gnome

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #164 on: 11-08-2003 00:55 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by El Zilcho:
Don't forget the cross-shaped lens flare when the machine was pumping Neo up, not to mention the fact that he died so everyone else could live.

Even though it's out of order, Neo's brief rise above the clouds before he falls back to Earth was strongly reminiscent of Jesus' ascension to heaven. It's almost as if they made Jesus' roles during the crufixion and Armageddon concurrent.
mikey

Urban Legend
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« Reply #165 on: 11-08-2003 04:29 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2003 04:29 »

Alot of it left me thinking what the hell just happened. Why did all the smiths die when the original Smith went all hand in stomach to leo?
VelourFog

Space Pope
****
« Reply #166 on: 11-08-2003 11:56 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrJerkberg:
Of course money is an issue. That's the film industry. But the Wachowskis are not in it just for the money. It is very clear in the special features on both the first and second movies that they actually cared about this project.
the first movie had a commentary track on the DVD...
the second  movie had an ad for the video game on the DVD...

yeah, it's totally not about the money AT ALL. I'm sorry, I was wrong.
El Zilcho

Professor
*
« Reply #167 on: 11-08-2003 12:07 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrJerkberg:
Of course money is an issue. That's the film industry. But the Wachowskis are not in it just for the money.
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
yeah, it's totally not about the money AT ALL. I'm sorry, I was wrong.
  confused I think Jerkberg's point was that they were trying to make money, but more than that, thay wanted to make a good movie that people enjoyed.
FishyJoe

Honorary German
Urban Legend
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« Reply #168 on: 11-08-2003 12:34 »

Yeah well MY point was that DrJerkberg sucks!

FishyJoe

Honorary German
Urban Legend
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« Reply #169 on: 11-08-2003 12:45 »

Also, has the whole "compare your cheesy action hero star to Jesus" bit ever gone well for anyone?
~FazeShift~

Moderator
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #170 on: 11-08-2003 12:47 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by LAN.gnome:
The Watchowskis fell victim to their own success and felt the pressure to make some sequels to rake in the cash. They used up all their best ideas in the first film, so in the later two installments they wrote themselves into a corner.
They said they (the bros.) wrote it as a trilogy, so they most likely already had the story in their heads or on paper somewhere before all the hype and popularity(?, I'm open to correction).

Also, I've played the game and a game it was, you get to do game stuff, like beat the crap out of sub-cretin AI and shoot stuff, and that's all I look for in a game now and then. It did have a separate story and enough tie-in to the films for me, I liked it and had no bugs/glitches at all.
(I'm a Software Engineer and had no major complaints about it = easy to please).
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #171 on: 11-08-2003 14:22 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2003 14:22 »

They said they (the bros.) wrote it as a trilogy, so they most likely already had the story in their heads or on paper somewhere before all the hype and popularity(?, I'm open to correction).

yeah i'd like to see the script outline for reloaded.

"have people talking a bit about some  kind of philosophical, stuff, have neo, doubt he's the one, have a sweaty dance orgy, have a load of action sequences, a little more  talking then some more action sequences, then do a bit to pretend we have a plot so we can link it to a car chase action sequence, and eventually lead to another big plot philosphy bit, then some romantic thing, then a bit more action with a bit of a twist at the end then say to be continued."

now i haven't seen revloutions, but i'm hoping to have it completley spoiled for me, as i'm not planning to see it, as from what i've heard its only marginally less shit than reloaded
SlaytanicMaggot
Professor
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« Reply #172 on: 11-08-2003 16:06 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2003 16:06 »

Revolutions is a masterpiece of an action movie. It spends like 2 minutes on plot, the rest on action. And despite most of the action being CGI, this time around the CGI is GOOD. If you like explosions, machine guns, and destruction, this is a movie you should see. If you are a die-hard matrix fan, WATCH IT!!!!!!!

Please edit your sig to 120 pixel height max.
[This message has been edited by Administrator [-mArc-]
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #173 on: 11-08-2003 16:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by ~FazeShift~:
Well done Larry and Andy, nice little trilogy, short stories and game you've made.
Good lads!

And don't forget the awesome book, 'The Art of The Matrix'. If you haven't got that, you're missing out.

The Names Nick

Professor
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« Reply #174 on: 11-08-2003 16:40 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by mikey:
Alot of it left me thinking what the hell just happened. Why did all the smiths die when the original Smith went all hand in stomach to leo?

~FazeShift~

Moderator
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #175 on: 11-08-2003 17:21 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Otis P Jivefunk:
 And don't forget the awesome book, 'The Art of The Matrix'. If you haven't got that, you're missing out.
That stuff scares me, as does the guy who draws it (I assume you mean the concept artist guy who's on "balancing out" drugs!)
VelourFog

Space Pope
****
« Reply #176 on: 11-09-2003 00:17 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by SlaytanicMaggot:
Revolutions is a masterpiece of an action movie. It spends like 2 minutes on plot, the rest on action. And despite most of the action being CGI, this time around the CGI is GOOD. If you like explosions, machine guns, and destruction, this is a movie you should see. If you are a die-hard matrix fan, WATCH IT!!!!!!!

I will agree that it has a lot of "action" but I found the action profoundly boring. The Matrix world is interesting a cool (unless Neo is flying, then just shoot me in the head, ok?). Zion is just like any other scene with dirty people fighting for their freedom. Zion is stuff we've seen billions of times before. We don't care about the people in Zion. It's boring.

They did better with the 3000 hour freeway scene in Reloaded (even though it didn't really do it for me either) and did it best in the original Matrix fight scenes.

and Die hard Matrix fans shouldn't be that fond of the 3rd one, since all the action just seems like a rip off of other action sci fi movies. It's not unique to the franchise at all.
Grim

Professor
*
« Reply #177 on: 11-09-2003 02:52 »

People question the machine's logic and ease of compliance to the request for peace, but keep in mind, in the second renassiance short that the machines kept attempting peace, and it was the humans that didnt listen.

also why does everyone think neo is dead? The last shot we see of him, is in Matrixy Neo Vision of him looking up, wouldnt he have just gone back to normal like everyone else who was "Smith Copied" ?
sheep555

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #178 on: 11-09-2003 04:43 »
« Last Edit on: 11-09-2003 04:43 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by SlaytanicMaggot:
And despite most of the action being CGI, this time around the CGI is GOOD.

You mean they didn't reuse CGI from the video game?

 
Quote
Originally posted by El Zilcho:
Don't forget the cross-shaped lens flare when the machine was pumping Neo up, not to mention the fact that he died so everyone else could live.


Matrix 4: The Resurrection
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #179 on: 11-09-2003 06:11 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by sheep555:
 Matrix 4: The Resurrection

Hehe, I honestly wouldn't be suprised  laff
DrThunder88

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #180 on: 11-09-2003 06:24 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
and Die hard Matrix fans shouldn't be that fond of the 3rd one, since all the action just seems like a rip off of other action sci fi movies. It's not unique to the franchise at all.

That's what I'm worried about.  I was disappointed with the third (usually the strongest in a trilogy) installment of Jurassic Park and now they're making a fourth.  Does this mean a fourth for The Matrix?

 
Quote
Originally posted by sheep555:
 
Matrix 4: The Resurrection

Followed by The Matrix: Judgement Day and The Matrix: Rereleased.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #181 on: 11-09-2003 06:33 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrThunder88:
 Followed by The Matrix: Judgement Day and The Matrix: Rereleased.

And don't forget Matrix Rejuvenation  laff
LAN.gnome

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #182 on: 11-09-2003 06:44 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by sheep555:
 
Matrix 4: The Resurrection

I think The Matrix: Reviolated is a better fit. Or perhaps The Matrix: Regurgitated.
Rage Dump

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #183 on: 11-09-2003 06:58 »
« Last Edit on: 11-09-2003 06:58 »

Curse you fanboys!

Awaits oncoming barrage of fanboys' comments...

Question (If applicable) : If you hated the second one so much, why did you see the third one? Just so you'd have something else to complain about?
wu_konguk

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #184 on: 11-09-2003 07:09 »

One thing that confused me about Revolutions was lack of RATM (unless they were in the credits).
That said I thought the music for this was quite interesting. As a friend suggested it was quite Operatic, which could alos be used to show the overt pretension of the movie IMOP.
VelourFog

Space Pope
****
« Reply #185 on: 11-09-2003 11:44 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Rage Dump:Question (If applicable) : If you hated the second one so much, why did you see the third one? Just so you'd have something else to complain about?
For me, it's a mix of nothing much to do in my stupid town, $7.50 burning a hole in my pocket, enjoying hilariously bad movies (ie: "Underworld") and hoping slightly that the 3rd Matrix wouldn't totally suck. Plus I have the hots for Trinity.  love

But sadly #3 wasn't good enough for me to enjoy and wasn't horrible enough for me to enjoy. It was a spectacular bore. Just boring enough for me to bitch constantly about on the internet. I hope that fanboy comment included me  love

::moves on to the AICN talkbacks::
Melllvar

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #186 on: 11-09-2003 19:39 »
« Last Edit on: 11-09-2003 19:39 »

I have one complaint about Revolutions:

boingo2000

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #187 on: 11-10-2003 07:49 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nixorbo:
I want to know HOW Trinity was enunciating so well despite the fact that she had steel rods jammed through both her lungs and her diaphram.

Hey, yeah, me too!  Hamlet didn't take that long to die, for Christ's sakes!
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #188 on: 11-10-2003 15:15 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Melllvar:
I have one complaint about Revolutions:


Because they're no longer raging against the machines...

Melllvar

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #189 on: 11-10-2003 15:21 »

Pssh, well, it's just not good enough.  wink
Slurm Guy

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #190 on: 11-10-2003 15:39 »

I agree with Melllvar. I was waiting to hear some good Rage at the end. But what do I get instead? A shit on the face orchestrated song!
evan

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #191 on: 11-10-2003 20:12 »
« Last Edit on: 11-10-2003 20:12 »

RATM broke up before Reloaded was in pre-production. So it's just their desire to dump cheap religious themed music on it.

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrThunder88:
 Who the hell did those guys think they were?  Vampires?

Uh, yeah, they were. All of the Merogevian's(sp?) goons are "paranormals." Vampires, the ghost twins from Reloaded, and Seraph (an angel.) Sorry if this was a rhetorical question.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Rage Dump:
Question (If applicable) : If you hated the second one so much, why did you see the third one? Just so you'd have something else to complain about?

It's like the Star Wars prequels. Lucas (and the Whackalaskis) know that if people saw the first and second one, they're going to come back for the third. I bet you that the majority of this board hated Episode 1, but they still went and saw Episode 2, and will see Episode 3.
VelourFog

Space Pope
****
« Reply #192 on: 11-10-2003 23:19 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by evan:
I swear, I think Morpheus had about as much to do in this movie as Persephone's breasts. And they were both bald and smooth.
Holy crap though! Her breasts should win an Oscar.

I'm seriously not gay
wu_konguk

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #193 on: 11-11-2003 09:53 »

Well I think this is a pretty good sumation of the movie from Andy of Atomictoy

 
Quote
Originally posted by Andy of Atomictoy:
Oh shit, now it is time to talka bout The Matrix Revolutions, "becasue even cookies need love." Spoilers, etc.

Yeah, so Revolutions. I have to admit, that most of this movie was more entertaining than Reloaded, and that the whole attack on zion part looked pretty impressive becasue it was 100% CG and there weren't too many digital stuntpeople and shit. However, all that was erased witthe PAWNCH CAM to Smith's face where he jiggled excessivly, and the whole rain-sphere DBZ arial slapfight that was totally out of context for what the entire other 2 movies has set up and should have been enough to get a lot of digital animator's hands broken forever. I liked how the writers constantly copped out of explaing anything by completely negating any segway. THere is no explaination or reason to the plot jumps, and are explained away like this:

NEO: Dude, Oracle. What do I do next so we can bumble on to another scene?
ORACLE: Neo, you totally already know.
NEO: I already know?
ORACLE: You will when the time comes for you to already know. Then you will have to choose if you know or not.
NEO: Choose?
ORACLE: Maybe.
NEO: Oh fuck.

It is like saying "You have to go here and do this becasue" and then not saying why and then blaming all teh plotholes on "the prophecy." it is lazy writing and a cop out. Like that whole train scene in the begining. it had NO POINT and no bearing on the rest of the movie. Even at the very end it was:

SMITH: WHY, Mr. Anderson? WHY did this movie spiral out of control and why am I suddenly the bad guy and not the machinnes? PS THE THEME OF THIS MOVES IS LOVE MR. ANDERSON.
NEO: um...
*NEO then LOSES and EXPLODES. S/FX: Gay*

Meanwhile, the machines still run on peoplepower, zion is still dirty, and the first matrix movie is still the only good one. MOST HILARIOUS MOMENT: Revealing that Trinity has been impiled on 18 randomly jutting out pieces of ribar and how they wiggled when neo hugger her. T_T
ghoulishmoose

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #194 on: 11-11-2003 12:33 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Evan:Uh, yeah, they were. All of the Merogevian's(sp?) goons are "paranormals." Vampires, the ghost twins from Reloaded, and Seraph (an angel.) Sorry if this was a rhetorical question.

I didn't know that Seraph was part of the Merovingians clan. I thought he was one of the good guys who looked ater the Oracle  smile

VelourFog

Space Pope
****
« Reply #195 on: 11-11-2003 13:19 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Evan:Uh, yeah, they were. All of the Merogevian's(sp?) goons are "paranormals." Vampires, the ghost twins from Reloaded, and Seraph (an angel.) Sorry if this was a rhetorical question.
that would make a bit of sense (::everyone gasps: smile since ol' mervy was a huge fan of the Matrix and it's properties
evan

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #196 on: 11-11-2003 13:32 »
« Last Edit on: 11-11-2003 13:32 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by ghoulishmoose:
 I didn't know that Seraph was part of the Merovingians clan. I thought he was one of the good guys who looked ater the Oracle    smile


Well, at one point, he was. There was like one line from each of them explaining how Seraph turned good and the Merovengian would kill him if given the chance. But, as I said in the review thread, all Merovengian stuff seemed fast-forwarded.

 
Quote
Originally posted by VF:
that would make a bit of sense (::everyone gasps:: )  since ol' mervy was a huge fan of the Matrix and it's properties

I honestly didn't notice it until the second time I saw Reloaded. Once again, there's like one line that explains it. The Merovengian collects old programs, and he really likes the supernatural kinds. I think.

On a related note, for the PEELtrix: Reloaded, the Merevangian sounds pretty cool.   wink
~FazeShift~

Moderator
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #197 on: 11-11-2003 13:38 »

That's right, Mero say to Sero: "The prodigal son returns."
Melllvar

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #198 on: 11-11-2003 13:41 »

So does the Melllovingian  tongue

I agree to a certain point that the Reloaded expended on the plot too far for Revolutions to answer every question fully (some bits did seem rushed, and/or forced).

However, compare that with the first one:

Neo wakes up, he trains, he fights and wins.  The end.

Perhaps, the plot expanding in the second and third installment, makes up for the pedestrian-ness of the first.  wink
davids

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #199 on: 11-11-2003 13:48 »

If you like the matrix and have been holding out for the trilogy box set (like me!) then possible good news! rumours are abound on the net with news that WB are worried with the money being made on the third film so may rush out a release BEFORE XMAS! there may be little truth in it but i can't wait!
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