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Author Topic: JJ Abrams is a (visionary/disgrace) who must be (commended/stopped): Star Trek  (Read 26644 times)
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PEE Poll: Star Trek: The Best
Original Series
The Next Generation
Deep Space 9
Voyager
Enterprise

Teral

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« Reply #40 on: 04-04-2003 12:36 »

I agree with Fred. That's a very good observation.

I think the franchise need to take a break once Enterprise has run it's course. I know B&B don't really care about the fans, as long as the ratings are high. But as far as I know the recent ratings for Enterprise hasn't exactly been stellar. If they really want to act in the best interest of Roddenberry's vision, they'll stop for a few years, let the fan digest what they already have. In 5 year we'll be ready for a new show, and the break could be used to lay the froundwork more thoroughly, find the right amount of main characters, flesh out their background, etc.

Star Trek have alwasy been a character driven show and have relied on space action to a much lesser extent than the other great sci-fi epic, Star Wars. In fact one of the reasons why the first pilot (The cage) was rejected was because it was deemed to cerebral. The executives thought it was a great piece of sci-fi, but feared it would go over the heads of the average viewer.

Some of the best episodes have always revolved around strong characters "The Inner Light", In the Pale Moonlight" and "Living Witness", just to name one episode from each show I've seen.
Teral

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« Reply #41 on: 04-04-2003 12:43 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Smitty:
 and the one where he makes himself a family (Real Life was it called?)).

Another good episode. I also liked the one where he met the new EMH program MkII. Pretty funny story, even though it contradicted the DS9 storyline in some  small way.

Another string of episodes I enjoyed where the Reg Barclay arch. Ofocurse, you can't go wrong when you cast Dwight Schultz.
Smitty

Professor
*
« Reply #42 on: 04-04-2003 12:45 »

I didn't really like that episode with the Holo-Reg. I think it was one where some Ferengi were trying to steal something using technobabble hole of some sort.
Teral

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« Reply #43 on: 04-04-2003 12:54 »

The one where Reg represented Doc's diagnostic program? I think it was about the Swarm, or something. Yeah, that was bad.

But the Pathfinder arch was great. I even didn't mind seeing Troi again.
Smitty

Professor
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« Reply #44 on: 04-04-2003 12:59 »

No no I remember that one. That was one of the earlier ones and it was quite good. I liked it when the Doc was happily deleting Harry Kim. God  wish he'd stayed dead (notice no one ever mentioned that little dying thing ever again?)

No I'm talking about what I think was a season 7 episode. I remember Reg made a Holo-version of himself and I think I remember a scene where he and Doc were playing golf on the Holodeck.
Teral

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« Reply #45 on: 04-04-2003 13:13 »

Hmm, I think I missed that one.

Reg was great, but the Swarm was bad, and something about Doc I didn't quite like. Can't remember what though.

Yes, Harry's frequent deaths. Well the less said about that, the better. But I think he holds the tittle right know for most deaths in a Trek show.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #46 on: 04-04-2003 13:13 »
« Last Edit on: 04-04-2003 13:13 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by Teral:

I think the franchise need to take a break once Enterprise has run it's course. I know B&B don't really care about the fans, as long as the ratings are high. But as far as I know the recent ratings for Enterprise hasn't exactly been stellar. If they really want to act in the best interest of Roddenberry's vision, they'll stop for a few years, let the fan digest what they already have. In 5 year we'll be ready for a new show, and the break could be used to lay the froundwork more thoroughly, find the right amount of main characters, flesh out their background, etc.

Which might happen sooner than some might think.
There are rumors that UPN is trouble and the ratings of Enterprise are not that good either, which would be an argument to kill the show after the 3rd Season. Not to mention that Enterprise is a really an expensive show. (around 5 Million $ per episode)
Also, it seems like their creators already abandoned some storylines, like Archer's mild dislike for the Vulcans, I mean just look how he interacts with T'Pol, not mention that they already cued in a possible relationship bewteen them.
I think too, that Star Trek needs a break, but if it happens, then it should be a long one, about 15-20 years.
Or you might get something like Voyager, which was IMO something like a TNG lookalike without Picard & Co.


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #47 on: 04-04-2003 13:18 »
« Last Edit on: 04-04-2003 13:18 »

Fred, feel free, but I can't take credit for it entirely. It's actually an observation made by Jim Wright, Michelle Erica Green and many other Voyager reviewers after Endgame.

Thanks for the IMHO, Teral.   wink

Teral's thinking of "The Swarm", a season two episode with Zimmerman representing the Doctor's diagnostic program.

Smitty's thinking of "Inside Man", a sequel to "Pathfinder" and "Life Line", both great eps. "Inside Man" was poor, however. "Message in a Bottle" is the one with the EMH Mk 2. (BTW, I loved the DS9 ep with the Doc and the Julian Bashir EMH (what was he called? Permanent Medical Hologram?). And "Real Life" was another classic episode. Seasons Three and Four had a lot of consistent eps.

Voyager's treatment of the Borg basically stems from a simple fact. They defeated them. Time and again. (another Voy ep   wink). I think the best episodes with the Borg, such as "Q Who", "The Best of Both Worlds" and "Unity" are brilliant because they don't actually defeat the Borg. They either get away without defeating them, or incapacitate them. I don't think the Queen was a great help either. In fact, I'd love to see that the Borg were in fact temporarily enslaved by the Queen and revert to their original hierachy (or lack thereof).

Despite what I say, Voyager will always hold a special place in my heart (aw   wink). It's the first series of Trek I watched and I watched it all the way through. In fact, a lot of the reason I feel so angry about "Endgame" is because it highlights how far Voyager came from "Caretaker" (Which remains my favourite ST pilot).

EDIT: I just realised that you two are thinking of different eps - "Projections" is the Barclay episode where the Doc thinks he's real, and "The Swarm" is the one where he must be merged with his diagnostic program.
bankrupt

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #48 on: 04-04-2003 14:04 »

TNG is my favorite then DS9.  I like the original series as well, but I haven't seen it nearly as much as the other two.  Voyager I wasn't impressed with at all.  I usually won't even watch the reruns.
Ricky

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #49 on: 04-04-2003 14:50 »

The TNG series is my favorite, as it is the only one I have watched regularly. Voyager is airing here now, and the one episode I watched (where Janeway broke the Prime Directive to save a planet from disaster) wasn't very catchy.
Though I love the old movies! I wish they'd start airing the old episodes here in Norway...
Kryten

Space Pope
****
« Reply #50 on: 04-04-2003 17:45 »

1: DS9. Great plots. Great characters. Great writing. Great acting. Very few missteps (Alamaraine!  tongue ).

2: TOS. Campy, archetypal, and just plain fun most of the time, but it could still make an incisive statement every once in a while.

3: TNG. Pretty good, mostly. Some great conceptual episodes. Unfortunately, with the exception of Picard, Worf, and Data, the characters were pretty bland, and there was far too much technobabble.

4: Voyager. Um... well... the uniforms were nice.

5: Enterprise. I don't really watch it.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #51 on: 04-04-2003 18:57 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Gocad:
 
Also, it seems like their creators already abandoned some storylines, like Archer's mild dislike for the Vulcans

That's not an original thing.  Remember the Starfleet/Marquis divide in Voyager?  At least in DS9 it took Sisko and Kira nearly a year before they got friendly.
Timo

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #52 on: 04-05-2003 00:29 »

1. TOS - particularly the movies
2. TNG - except the movies
3. DS9 - good luck getting a movie

Those are the only Star Trek series.  Actually, DS9 wasn't really Star Trek, either.  But it was good.

Babylon 5 is the spiritual successor to TOS, and far better than most Trek.  I'm sure I would love Farscape as well, but I have been cable-challenged for the last few years.

DS9 would have been even better if Berman et al. had left it alone and weren't obsessed with stealing - even the FX company - from Babylon 5.
Kristi
Starship Captain
****
« Reply #53 on: 04-05-2003 01:11 »

Best Star Trek is The Next Generation. I've seen a few eps of that, it's pretty good. I don't like the others very much.
Spice Weasel

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #54 on: 04-05-2003 01:23 »

TNG: The apogee of writing , concepts, characters and watchability.  Took a couple of seasons to find it's footing though.  By far the most intellegent. Technobabble is a good thing.

TOS:  Campy, silly, politically incorrect, ridiculous acting/situations...by far the most fun

DS9: Horridly unwatchable characters.  Passable writing, bland situations, aliens you felt like exterminating en masse after a few episodes.  Quark??? puhleez.  Only saving grace...Sisko. Worst of the bunch by a Cardassian mile

Voyager:  Ummm... well...The uniforms were nice.

Enterprise:  Laid back, naieve, good story pool, good writing, most realistic crew since TNG, bad acting, especially from Archer.  Forgivable as he is a ships captain not a master thespian.  Most promising future for ideas since TNG.  My favourite incarnation right now.

 
winna

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« Reply #55 on: 04-05-2003 03:03 »

I used to watch TNG and that's pretty good.  TOS is probably the best of all, it's nothing like the others.  DS9 probably had better plots, but I just didn't watch much of it, maybe I'll see more of the series on syndication.  I've seen a lot of Voyager, and yeah they reuse stories over and over.  Enterprise seems like the worst step to take though.  I mean a PREQUEL, it just seemed rediculous.  Some episodes were kind of good (although I think some stories have copied off of others), but what gets me the most is I've seen aliens on Enterprise that come from later series.  Now if the people in Enterprise had met these beings then wouldn't the people in TOS have known about them?  Really it screws up the whole thing...... TOS is the best, I love watching that because its just fun to watch!
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #56 on: 04-05-2003 04:17 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by PCC Fred:
 That's not an original thing.  Remember the Starfleet/Marquis divide in Voyager?  At least in DS9 it took Sisko and Kira nearly a year before they got friendly.

Yeah, and how long did it take for Archer?
Three weeks?
The only reason to watch this is Shran, he brings class into this...
And maybe T'pol, for different reasons.
I'm just kidding, Enterprise is not as bad Voyager...


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Teral

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« Reply #57 on: 04-05-2003 07:28 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Spice Weasel:
DS9: Horridly unwatchable characters.  Passable writing, bland situations, aliens you felt like exterminating en masse after a few episodes.  Quark??? puhleez.  Only saving grace...Sisko. Worst of the bunch by a Cardassian mile
 

Considering my broadside at Voyager earlier in this thread, I guess I should take this with dignity. Sufice to say, I respectfully disagree on all accounts (except for the Ferengi part).
~FazeShift~

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« Reply #58 on: 04-05-2003 09:53 »

DS9
Enterprise
Voyager
TNG
And I never really watched TOS, so it goes last.
Melllvar

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« Reply #59 on: 04-06-2003 06:00 »

I went with TNG (specifically the episodes, "Yesterday's Enterprise", my fabourite ST Ep ever, and "The Best Of Both Worlds" ), although I was brought up on TOS (which I also love.)  DS9 and VOY have never appealed to me, although what episodes I have watched, I've sorta enjoyed.

Enterprise just seems like heresy.
Aleel

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #60 on: 04-06-2003 06:26 »

I've been watching Persistence of Vision (VOY) and Armageddon Game (DS9) on TV yesterday. I remembered that I'm Star Trek Fan and watched Duet (DS9) and Bliss (VOY) on tape... nice eps, all of them... though I think Duet is the best of them.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #61 on: 04-06-2003 09:25 »
« Last Edit on: 04-06-2003 09:25 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Teral:
 Considering my broadside at Voyager earlier in this thread, I guess I should take this with dignity. Sufice to say, I respectfully disagree on all accounts (except for the Ferengi part).
*offers Alliance to Teral against anyone who says something negative about DS9*

[Prophet]He is the Sisko[/Prophet]


------------------
vIta'pu'be
sheep555

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #62 on: 04-06-2003 12:00 »

Any TNG episodes with Q in, and the first series of DS9 rocked. In my opinion.
Smitty

Professor
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« Reply #63 on: 04-06-2003 17:33 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by sheep555:
Any TNG episodes with Q in.

Hello Worf, eat any good books lately?   laff
Trekzilla3k

Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #64 on: 04-08-2003 00:18 »

I grew up with TOS,but TNG is my favorite.
With DS9 next,and VOY a close behind
ENT,the juries still out
McGrady

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #65 on: 04-08-2003 00:55 »

I like all the star treks for different reasons.  I think the doctor in Voyager was the best actor of anyone in star trek.  I liked DS9 except for the Dominion wars, which was like the last 3 or 4 seasons, and some of the religious episodes grated on my nerves, but some of the episodes in DS9 were the best of star trek.

As far as Enterprise goes, if you skip the bad episodes (1/2 of them), the show is pretty good.  Can't go wrong with the quantum leaper himself.

TNG is my favorite, though.
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #66 on: 04-08-2003 16:56 »

I've been thinking about this a bit more for the past few days, and I think that a majority of Voyager's problems can be summed up by one glaring problem:

The lack of arc plot lines.

Voyager, by it's very premise, was a show ideally suited to long story lines (even if they were in the background). And from long plotlines comes the need for frequently recurring characters (one of DS9s key strengths, and Voyagers weaknesses). And because there was no "overall" continuity, the episodes are inconsistent because there are few, if any, links between them.

The type of enemies Voyager encountered in the Delta Quadrant also underscore this fact - the "pussification" of the Borg largely occured because they had to be defeated by the end of the episode. Species 8472, another interesting species, really only got utilised in three episodes (Scorpion, Prey, and In The Flesh). A season spanning arc of Voyager moving through Borg space while the Borg/8472 conflict was still raging would have been a suspensful one, to say the least. The Year of Hell would also have been a possible event to span over a season. And of course, the key event which really could have used an arc was Voyager getting home.

The main reason I bring this up is because of the recent airing of "The Why of Fry", which shows how a background arc can be a series key strength.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #67 on: 04-08-2003 17:02 »
« Last Edit on: 04-08-2003 17:02 »

The lack of a Arc plot line is a good argument, but TNG didn't have one as well, unless you take Borg, Q and Klingon stories. I think the Problem was that Voyager didn't really had a good concept. It was to much of TNG lookalike and some characters were merely annoying (Janeway, Chakos, Neelix)
vIta'pu'be
Kang+Kodos

Poppler
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« Reply #68 on: 04-09-2003 18:04 »

DS9 was my fave.  You couldn't beat the story lines, the quality of the storylines or the character development.  Plus the special effects and some of the battle scenes rivaled those of many movies.
1 - DS9
2 - TNG
3 - Voyager
4 - TOS
5 - Enterprise (for now)
 
Trekzilla3k

Delivery Boy
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« Reply #69 on: 04-09-2003 23:43 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by McGrady:
I like all the star treks for different reasons.  I think the doctor in Voyager was the best actor of anyone in star trek.

Total agreement here
Robert Picardo is de man!

Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana
GROUCHO MARX
Smitty

Professor
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« Reply #70 on: 04-10-2003 15:23 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by CyberKnight:
I've been thinking about this a bit more for the past few days, and I think that a majority of Voyager's problems can be summed up by one glaring problem:

The lack of arc plot lines.

Not all that true. If you work around Scorpion than you can work out a story arc that spans all 7 seasons. I once had a go at doing it but got bored.
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #71 on: 04-10-2003 15:43 »

Yes, but it's more of a background story arc rather than one where all episodes fit into the overall scheme. You could take a Season 6 episode, fit it in Season 4 and (apart from Paris' rank) you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in terms of the characters.

DS9 always seemed to be (from what I saw) more like a serial, where the events of the previous episode would have a direct effect on those of the next.
Teral

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« Reply #72 on: 04-10-2003 16:07 »

Mybe you could work out a story-arch, but it's to no fault of B&B. They had the chance to do a massive story-arch (like cyberKnight mentioned) spanning 7 years, intertwinned with filler episodes (that's not necessarily a bad thing). A story-arch about a group of people stranded a long wat from home, how they struggle as one, meld their different viewpoints, learn from eachother, and finally getting home. In the end B&B decided it was better just to say: "we start here, and end here, arch complete".

Another thing I didn't like, was how those rag-tag, fractionalized Kazon apparently controlled a space it took more than 2 years to leave. Did these guys actually come up as interstellar masters? They were Klingons on dope-medicin. Yet interesting species, such as the Krennim and the Viidians was quickly brushed aside. If the Viidians had replaced the Kazon, I might've liked the first couple of seasons better.

That and if "Threshold" was removed from this Universe.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #73 on: 04-10-2003 16:49 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Trekzilla3k:
 Total agreement here
Robert Picardo is de man!



True, he was the only reason to watch that show...


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
kip
Professor
*
« Reply #74 on: 04-11-2003 20:28 »

- Enterprise
- Voy
- DS9
- TOS
- TNG

I like Enterprise because Archer is a trigger happy basta'd. Better stories, new take on the ST universe. They take a lot of thrashings - unlike VOY where they just turn on quantum metaphasic shielding or some bullcrap like that and survive everything. Time travelling aspect is quite nice... I liked futures end in VOY. Plus Jolene (T'Pol) is HOT! I got 2 signed autographed pics.... ohhh bebe.

TNG is by far the worst except the First Contact Movie. Too much diplomacy and chit chat in TNG. TOS was good, and DS9 was great until Jadzia was killed off  frown
Nixorbo

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« Reply #75 on: 04-11-2003 22:01 »

Hey Teral, when you're done with that knife, can you ship it over here?
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #76 on: 04-12-2003 05:25 »

*Hands Nix a Bat'leth*
Why not use this?


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #77 on: 04-12-2003 05:27 »
« Last Edit on: 04-12-2003 05:27 »

Stupidity strikes again!

Stupid, unreliable internet connetcion

 mad


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #78 on: 04-12-2003 10:30 »
« Last Edit on: 04-12-2003 10:30 »

Anybody who put "Enterprise" and "Voyager" ahead of DS9, deserves what's coming to him.

::airmails bloodstained knife to Houghton, NY::

kip
Professor
*
« Reply #79 on: 04-12-2003 20:36 »

As I said, DS9 was great until they killed Jadzia.
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