Teral
Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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I agree with Fred. That's a very good observation.
I think the franchise need to take a break once Enterprise has run it's course. I know B&B don't really care about the fans, as long as the ratings are high. But as far as I know the recent ratings for Enterprise hasn't exactly been stellar. If they really want to act in the best interest of Roddenberry's vision, they'll stop for a few years, let the fan digest what they already have. In 5 year we'll be ready for a new show, and the break could be used to lay the froundwork more thoroughly, find the right amount of main characters, flesh out their background, etc.
Star Trek have alwasy been a character driven show and have relied on space action to a much lesser extent than the other great sci-fi epic, Star Wars. In fact one of the reasons why the first pilot (The cage) was rejected was because it was deemed to cerebral. The executives thought it was a great piece of sci-fi, but feared it would go over the heads of the average viewer.
Some of the best episodes have always revolved around strong characters "The Inner Light", In the Pale Moonlight" and "Living Witness", just to name one episode from each show I've seen.
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Teral
Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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Originally posted by Smitty: and the one where he makes himself a family (Real Life was it called?)). Another good episode. I also liked the one where he met the new EMH program MkII. Pretty funny story, even though it contradicted the DS9 storyline in some small way. Another string of episodes I enjoyed where the Reg Barclay arch. Ofocurse, you can't go wrong when you cast Dwight Schultz.
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Smitty
Professor
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I didn't really like that episode with the Holo-Reg. I think it was one where some Ferengi were trying to steal something using technobabble hole of some sort.
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Teral
Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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The one where Reg represented Doc's diagnostic program? I think it was about the Swarm, or something. Yeah, that was bad.
But the Pathfinder arch was great. I even didn't mind seeing Troi again.
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Smitty
Professor
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No no I remember that one. That was one of the earlier ones and it was quite good. I liked it when the Doc was happily deleting Harry Kim. God wish he'd stayed dead (notice no one ever mentioned that little dying thing ever again?)
No I'm talking about what I think was a season 7 episode. I remember Reg made a Holo-version of himself and I think I remember a scene where he and Doc were playing golf on the Holodeck.
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Teral
Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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Hmm, I think I missed that one.
Reg was great, but the Swarm was bad, and something about Doc I didn't quite like. Can't remember what though.
Yes, Harry's frequent deaths. Well the less said about that, the better. But I think he holds the tittle right know for most deaths in a Trek show.
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Gocad
Space Pope
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« Reply #46 on: 04-04-2003 13:13 »
« Last Edit on: 04-04-2003 13:13 »
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Originally posted by Teral:
I think the franchise need to take a break once Enterprise has run it's course. I know B&B don't really care about the fans, as long as the ratings are high. But as far as I know the recent ratings for Enterprise hasn't exactly been stellar. If they really want to act in the best interest of Roddenberry's vision, they'll stop for a few years, let the fan digest what they already have. In 5 year we'll be ready for a new show, and the break could be used to lay the froundwork more thoroughly, find the right amount of main characters, flesh out their background, etc.
Which might happen sooner than some might think. There are rumors that UPN is trouble and the ratings of Enterprise are not that good either, which would be an argument to kill the show after the 3rd Season. Not to mention that Enterprise is a really an expensive show. (around 5 Million $ per episode) Also, it seems like their creators already abandoned some storylines, like Archer's mild dislike for the Vulcans, I mean just look how he interacts with T'Pol, not mention that they already cued in a possible relationship bewteen them. I think too, that Star Trek needs a break, but if it happens, then it should be a long one, about 15-20 years. Or you might get something like Voyager, which was IMO something like a TNG lookalike without Picard & Co.
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CyberKnight
Urban Legend
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« Reply #47 on: 04-04-2003 13:18 »
« Last Edit on: 04-04-2003 13:18 »
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Fred, feel free, but I can't take credit for it entirely. It's actually an observation made by Jim Wright, Michelle Erica Green and many other Voyager reviewers after Endgame. Thanks for the IMHO, Teral. Teral's thinking of "The Swarm", a season two episode with Zimmerman representing the Doctor's diagnostic program. Smitty's thinking of "Inside Man", a sequel to "Pathfinder" and "Life Line", both great eps. "Inside Man" was poor, however. "Message in a Bottle" is the one with the EMH Mk 2. (BTW, I loved the DS9 ep with the Doc and the Julian Bashir EMH (what was he called? Permanent Medical Hologram?). And "Real Life" was another classic episode. Seasons Three and Four had a lot of consistent eps. Voyager's treatment of the Borg basically stems from a simple fact. They defeated them. Time and again. (another Voy ep ). I think the best episodes with the Borg, such as "Q Who", "The Best of Both Worlds" and "Unity" are brilliant because they don't actually defeat the Borg. They either get away without defeating them, or incapacitate them. I don't think the Queen was a great help either. In fact, I'd love to see that the Borg were in fact temporarily enslaved by the Queen and revert to their original hierachy (or lack thereof). Despite what I say, Voyager will always hold a special place in my heart (aw ). It's the first series of Trek I watched and I watched it all the way through. In fact, a lot of the reason I feel so angry about "Endgame" is because it highlights how far Voyager came from "Caretaker" (Which remains my favourite ST pilot). EDIT: I just realised that you two are thinking of different eps - "Projections" is the Barclay episode where the Doc thinks he's real, and "The Swarm" is the one where he must be merged with his diagnostic program.
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Kryten
Space Pope
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1: DS9. Great plots. Great characters. Great writing. Great acting. Very few missteps (Alamaraine! ). 2: TOS. Campy, archetypal, and just plain fun most of the time, but it could still make an incisive statement every once in a while. 3: TNG. Pretty good, mostly. Some great conceptual episodes. Unfortunately, with the exception of Picard, Worf, and Data, the characters were pretty bland, and there was far too much technobabble. 4: Voyager. Um... well... the uniforms were nice. 5: Enterprise. I don't really watch it.
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Spice Weasel
Liquid Emperor
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TNG: The apogee of writing , concepts, characters and watchability. Took a couple of seasons to find it's footing though. By far the most intellegent. Technobabble is a good thing.
TOS: Campy, silly, politically incorrect, ridiculous acting/situations...by far the most fun
DS9: Horridly unwatchable characters. Passable writing, bland situations, aliens you felt like exterminating en masse after a few episodes. Quark??? puhleez. Only saving grace...Sisko. Worst of the bunch by a Cardassian mile
Voyager: Ummm... well...The uniforms were nice.
Enterprise: Laid back, naieve, good story pool, good writing, most realistic crew since TNG, bad acting, especially from Archer. Forgivable as he is a ships captain not a master thespian. Most promising future for ideas since TNG. My favourite incarnation right now.
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Gocad
Space Pope
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Originally posted by PCC Fred: That's not an original thing. Remember the Starfleet/Marquis divide in Voyager? At least in DS9 it took Sisko and Kira nearly a year before they got friendly. Yeah, and how long did it take for Archer? Three weeks? The only reason to watch this is Shran, he brings class into this... And maybe T'pol, for different reasons. I'm just kidding, Enterprise is not as bad Voyager...
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Teral
Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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Originally posted by Spice Weasel: DS9: Horridly unwatchable characters. Passable writing, bland situations, aliens you felt like exterminating en masse after a few episodes. Quark??? puhleez. Only saving grace...Sisko. Worst of the bunch by a Cardassian mile Considering my broadside at Voyager earlier in this thread, I guess I should take this with dignity. Sufice to say, I respectfully disagree on all accounts (except for the Ferengi part).
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Melllvar
DOOP Secretary
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I went with TNG (specifically the episodes, "Yesterday's Enterprise", my fabourite ST Ep ever, and "The Best Of Both Worlds" ), although I was brought up on TOS (which I also love.) DS9 and VOY have never appealed to me, although what episodes I have watched, I've sorta enjoyed.
Enterprise just seems like heresy.
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Smitty
Professor
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Originally posted by sheep555: Any TNG episodes with Q in. Hello Worf, eat any good books lately?
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CyberKnight
Urban Legend
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I've been thinking about this a bit more for the past few days, and I think that a majority of Voyager's problems can be summed up by one glaring problem:
The lack of arc plot lines.
Voyager, by it's very premise, was a show ideally suited to long story lines (even if they were in the background). And from long plotlines comes the need for frequently recurring characters (one of DS9s key strengths, and Voyagers weaknesses). And because there was no "overall" continuity, the episodes are inconsistent because there are few, if any, links between them.
The type of enemies Voyager encountered in the Delta Quadrant also underscore this fact - the "pussification" of the Borg largely occured because they had to be defeated by the end of the episode. Species 8472, another interesting species, really only got utilised in three episodes (Scorpion, Prey, and In The Flesh). A season spanning arc of Voyager moving through Borg space while the Borg/8472 conflict was still raging would have been a suspensful one, to say the least. The Year of Hell would also have been a possible event to span over a season. And of course, the key event which really could have used an arc was Voyager getting home.
The main reason I bring this up is because of the recent airing of "The Why of Fry", which shows how a background arc can be a series key strength.
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Kang+Kodos
Poppler
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DS9 was my fave. You couldn't beat the story lines, the quality of the storylines or the character development. Plus the special effects and some of the battle scenes rivaled those of many movies. 1 - DS9 2 - TNG 3 - Voyager 4 - TOS 5 - Enterprise (for now)
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Trekzilla3k
Delivery Boy
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Originally posted by McGrady: I like all the star treks for different reasons. I think the doctor in Voyager was the best actor of anyone in star trek. Total agreement here Robert Picardo is de man!
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Smitty
Professor
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Originally posted by CyberKnight: I've been thinking about this a bit more for the past few days, and I think that a majority of Voyager's problems can be summed up by one glaring problem:
The lack of arc plot lines. Not all that true. If you work around Scorpion than you can work out a story arc that spans all 7 seasons. I once had a go at doing it but got bored.
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Teral
Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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Mybe you could work out a story-arch, but it's to no fault of B&B. They had the chance to do a massive story-arch (like cyberKnight mentioned) spanning 7 years, intertwinned with filler episodes (that's not necessarily a bad thing). A story-arch about a group of people stranded a long wat from home, how they struggle as one, meld their different viewpoints, learn from eachother, and finally getting home. In the end B&B decided it was better just to say: "we start here, and end here, arch complete".
Another thing I didn't like, was how those rag-tag, fractionalized Kazon apparently controlled a space it took more than 2 years to leave. Did these guys actually come up as interstellar masters? They were Klingons on dope-medicin. Yet interesting species, such as the Krennim and the Viidians was quickly brushed aside. If the Viidians had replaced the Kazon, I might've liked the first couple of seasons better.
That and if "Threshold" was removed from this Universe.
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kip
Professor
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- Enterprise - Voy - DS9 - TOS - TNG I like Enterprise because Archer is a trigger happy basta'd. Better stories, new take on the ST universe. They take a lot of thrashings - unlike VOY where they just turn on quantum metaphasic shielding or some bullcrap like that and survive everything. Time travelling aspect is quite nice... I liked futures end in VOY. Plus Jolene (T'Pol) is HOT! I got 2 signed autographed pics.... ohhh bebe. TNG is by far the worst except the First Contact Movie. Too much diplomacy and chit chat in TNG. TOS was good, and DS9 was great until Jadzia was killed off
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Nixorbo
UberMod
DOOP Secretary
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Hey Teral, when you're done with that knife, can you ship it over here?
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kip
Professor
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As I said, DS9 was great until they killed Jadzia.
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