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Author Topic: The Unoficial LOTR Thread  (Read 6046 times)
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Slurm Guy

Starship Captain
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« Reply #200 on: 12-21-2003 22:21 »
« Last Edit on: 12-21-2003 22:21 »

You tell 'em!
TheLastGreatDon

Bending Unit
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« Reply #201 on: 12-21-2003 22:48 »

Ohh my... I'm staying out of this one... but I'd like to point out that the whole pipe-weed bit was quite a high point (no pun intended) to my stoner friends in relating to the whole story... plus it was fucking hilarious to see a tall old guy and a young midget get stoned together....

(This is in reference to "The Fellowship Of The Ring film.)
Pitt Clemens

Urban Legend
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« Reply #202 on: 12-22-2003 00:42 »

 
Quote
1). The "Lord of the Rings" was in part intended by Tolkien to be the mythology of Britain, since Britain didn't really have a mythology of its own, like the Greeks or Romans. Tolkien based his stories on pre-existing Norse mythology and -- fancy that! -- the Norse are white. Does it come as any surprise then that in Norse mythology, the Norse are the good guys? That's not what I'd called "white supremacy". Besides, time and again the books stress that the Men in the employ of Sauron were tricked and seduced by him, not evil by nature.

Hey, no doubt.  I'm all for folklore, and white guys are going to tell white guy stories I, of course am no exception.  I have no qualms with staying true to the strictly European background of the Tales origin.  If the colors of any of the main characters had been changed it would upset everybody, because it's not true to form. 

Still, You gotta say that Jacksons films have some pretty, at least misreadable, nuances that can easily be interpreted as White supremacy.  You got armies from the south who ride Pacaderms and Pirates who sail in oriental ships,  You also have a main character who rallies his troops by reminding them they are "THE MEN OF THE WEST!"

If you really want to dig deep you could compare the Orcs with blacks in the silent film "Birth of a nation."  But that would be both digressing and sheer speculation.  Still, it popped into my head.


Personally, I don't think any of us can kill our own little racial suppremacist.  Deep down, any nation, race, even community and individuals have a sence of belonging that suggests 'these are my people.'  I won't even pretend that race lines will go away any time soon.  Meanwhile the line between ethnicity and racism will continue to be vague and feared.

If it's not there, and I'm reading into it, then I'm the oversensative guy who's just expounding on his own racial insecurity.  But if it is there, can we at least have the balls/ovaries to say that it's there.

OK, I'm going to stop now and I refuse to open a racism thread.

NEXT TOPIC!
David A

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #203 on: 12-22-2003 01:09 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by LAN.gnome:
 These points come up again and again, so I'll try to address them:

1). The "Lord of the Rings" was in part intended by Tolkien to be the mythology of Britain, since Britain didn't really have a mythology of its own, like the Greeks or Romans. Tolkien based his stories on pre-existing Norse mythology and -- fancy that! -- the Norse are white. Does it come as any surprise then that in Norse mythology, the Norse are the good guys? That's not what I'd called "white supremacy". Besides, time and again the books stress that the Men in the employ of Sauron were tricked and seduced by him, not evil by nature.

It's not exactly correct to say that Britain didn't really have a mythology of its own.  It did, but most knowledge of it was lost during the Roman occupation and the subsequent Anglo-Saxon invasion.  But yes, you're correct in saying that Tolkien drew heavily on Norse mythology.

 
Quote
2). I doubt that Tolkien intended for there to be any homosexual overtones to the Frodo/Sam relationship, seeing as how he was a devout Roman Catholic. The themes he was trying to emphasize between them were brotherhood, and more importantly, friendship -- nothing more.

I agree.  I think it's sad that so many people see the beautiful friendship that Sam and Frodo share and automatically think, "Hey they must be gay!"  Maybe it's homophobia, or wishful thinking, or maybe their perceptions have been warped by Hollywood's overemphasis on romantic love.  In any case, I doubt that Jackson intended for there to be any homosexual overtones in the films.  Tolkien certainly didn't intended for there to be any in the books.

Speak softly. Drive a Sherman tank.
Mr. Potter

Professor
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« Reply #204 on: 12-22-2003 01:51 »

I completely agree with you guys.

Tolkien believed heavily in friendship. He was in First World War and he also went through experiences when friends, his fellow soldiers, were all he got. That left a profound mark in him, and it shows that in dark places, in difficult situations, a really loyal friend is the only one who can help us.

And that is an encouraging thought!
LAN.gnome

Urban Legend
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« Reply #205 on: 12-22-2003 02:22 »
« Last Edit on: 12-22-2003 02:22 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by David A:
It's not exactly correct to say that Britain didn't really have a mythology of its own.  It did, but most knowledge of it was lost during the Roman occupation and the subsequent Anglo-Saxon invasion.

1). Britain has mythology
2). Anglo-Saxon invasion
3). Britain's mythology is lost

Given that Tolkien wrote LOTR after step 3, I think it'd be pretty fair to say that the Britain of his time had no real mythology, aside from the odd story like King Arthur -- which was a fairly recent creation, mythology-wise.

What's interesting is that if, as Tolkien said, LOTR was a mythology for Britain, "The Silmarillion" is the mythology of a mythology.    hmpf

Post 1700! w00t!
David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #206 on: 12-22-2003 11:25 »
« Last Edit on: 12-22-2003 11:25 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by LAN.gnome:
1). Britain has mythology
2). Anglo-Saxon invasion
3). Britain's mythology is lost

Given that Tolkien wrote LOTR after step 3, I think it'd be pretty fair to say that the Britain of his time had no real mythology, aside from the odd story like King Arthur -- which was a fairly recent creation, mythology-wise.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  It's just that your previous post could be misinterpreted to imply that Britain had never had a mythology of its own, and that simply isn't true.  I was attempting to clarify your statement, not to correct it.

It's interesting that you mentioned King Arthur.  Arthurian legend is one of the places where echoes of the old mythology of Britain can still be found, albeit in bits and pieces.

Speak softly. Drive a Sherman tank.
VelourFog

Space Pope
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« Reply #207 on: 12-22-2003 13:16 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by David A:
 I agree.  I think it's sad that so many people see the beautiful friendship that Sam and Frodo share and automatically think, "Hey they must be gay!" 

maybe we think, "Oh they're gay. How beautiful!"

David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #208 on: 12-22-2003 14:15 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
maybe we think, "Oh they're gay. How beautiful!"

I think that I covered that when I said "wishful thinking."

Look, if you want to imagine a romantic relationship between Frodo and Sam, that's fine.  Go right ahead.  But if you're looking for such a relationship in the actual story, you're out of luck, because it isn't there.

What I think is sad about this is that so many people seem to assume that such a relationship does exist because they can't interpret affection between two male characters in any other way.

Speak softly. Drive a Sherman tank.
grunka_lunka

Delivery Boy
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« Reply #209 on: 12-22-2003 20:56 »

exactly. something about the way most young male teenagers are brought up nowadays, whether it be by peers, parents or the media, makes for this rampant homophobia. yet another reason for me to hate men.

.........sorry 'bout that.

but seriously, two guys can't be close without suggestion of 'gay vibe?'. it's ridiculous.
Pikka Bird

Space Pope
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« Reply #210 on: 12-22-2003 21:25 »

Besides, Sam thinks about Rosie quite frequently. In the warmest of ways. If someone says "So he's bi!", then I'll just go on a rampage.
Mr. Potter

Professor
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« Reply #211 on: 12-22-2003 21:31 »

Of all, the only one who I remember not being interested in females was Frodo, just like Bilbo. But I'm not saying that he was interested in males, it's just that he preferred to be lonely. All the other hobbits went and got married.
Slurm Guy

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #212 on: 12-22-2003 21:42 »
« Last Edit on: 12-22-2003 21:42 »

How about we all stop fantasizing about gay hobbits and start talking about how spectacular and awsome ROTK was. OK?
David A

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #213 on: 12-22-2003 21:50 »
« Last Edit on: 12-22-2003 21:50 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Potter:
Of all, the only one who I remember not being interested in females was Frodo, just like Bilbo. But I'm not saying that he was interested in males, it's just that he preferred to be lonely. All the other hobbits went and got married.

To be a ringbearer is to be alone.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Tikka Bird:
Besides, Sam thinks about Rosie quite frequently. In the warmest of ways. If someone says "So he's bi!", then I'll just go on a rampage.

And a Dane on a rampage is not someone that you want to mess with.    no no

Speak softly. Drive a Sherman tank.
sheep555

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #214 on: 12-23-2003 14:24 »
« Last Edit on: 12-23-2003 14:24 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Pitt Clemens:
Still, You gotta say that Jacksons films have some pretty, at least misreadable, nuances that can easily be interpreted as White supremacy.

You know, I think that the film (and the book) "To Kill A Mockingbird" can easily be interpreted as white supremacy. I mean, the black guy dies - that always happens.

The film would have been so much better if he'd lived. In fact, why the hell is the black dude put on trial anyway? The master reel should be burned, and we should all forget about that shocking piece of filth that is "To Kill A Mockingbird".

That Harper Lee is such a racist.

 
Quote
You got armies from the south who ride Pacaderms and Pirates who sail in oriental ships,  You also have a main character who rallies his troops by reminding them they are "THE MEN OF THE WEST!"

What's your point? You'd rather they change the very well defined geography of middle-earth because someone might think it's racist?

 
Quote
If you really want to dig deep you could compare the Orcs with blacks in the silent film "Birth of a nation."  But that would be both digressing and sheer speculation.  Still, it popped into my head.

In "Birth Of A Nation", African-Americans have taken control of many governmental entities, including Congress and the Senate. Thus the way of life for white Americans is changing and becoming unsatisfactory in the process.

The Nazis also took control of many governmental entities, and the way of life for homosexuals, afro-americans, jews and many other groups changed.

So the orcs could also be compared to the Nazis.

Weren't the Nazis white?

 
Quote
Personally, I don't think any of us can kill our own little racial suppremacist.  Deep down, any nation, race, even community and individuals have a sence of belonging that suggests 'these are my people.'[...]Meanwhile the line between ethnicity and racism will continue to be vague and feared.

Agreed.

 
Quote
If it's not there, and I'm reading into it, then I'm the oversensative guy who's just expounding on his own racial insecurity.  But if it is there, can we at least have the balls/ovaries to say that it's there.

It's not there. I can just as easily interpret LOTR as being an example of "black supremacy" (I won't, because that would be stupid. As is saying LOTR is an example of "white supremacy" ).

 
Quote
OK, I'm going to stop now and I refuse to open a racism thread.

Me too, especially when it's a completely ludicrous allegation. Viewpoints like that don't help the fight against racism at all, but merely add weight the idea that somehow afro americans have to be put into films "just to please". Come on, you seriously approve of "the token black guy?".

I've got nothing against you, I just had to get that off my chest   smile. Man, I'm going to get flamed for this.
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #215 on: 12-23-2003 19:39 »
« Last Edit on: 12-23-2003 19:39 »

sorry i responded to something on a different page, i could have sworn i cliked the last page but anyway i edited what i said so ignore me
VelourFog

Space Pope
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« Reply #216 on: 12-24-2003 10:04 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Slurm Guy:
How about we all stop fantasizing about gay hobbits and start talking about how spectacular and awsome ROTK was. OK?

OMG did you guys SEE Orlando Bloom? Is he hotttt or what?!!!11one

::swoon::
Slurm Guy

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #217 on: 12-24-2003 10:07 »

I wouldn't say that he's hot or not, because I don't swing that way. But it was so kickass when Legolas took out that oliphaunt by himself.
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #218 on: 12-24-2003 10:20 »

Gimli: "That still only counts as one!"  laff
Nixorbo

UberMod
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #219 on: 12-24-2003 11:55 »

At the very end, when Bilbo asked Frodo about The Ring, and Frodo says, "I lost it," was anyone else half expecting him to follow that up with "in a volcano"?
TheMadCapper

Fluffy
UberMod
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #220 on: 12-24-2003 12:42 »
« Last Edit on: 12-24-2003 12:42 »

1 - I loved it. Obviously it wasn't perfect, but I thought it was great. I read those books many many times as a youngster, and seeing the story come to life, complete with soundtrack... it was great.

2  - They skipped some very important moments, in my opinion. Gandalf's confrontation with Saruman and Saruman's conquering of the shire after being reft of his magic (and death by Wormtongue's hand) spring to mind.

3 - The oliphaunt-slaying was cool, but I enjoyed Eowyn's confrontation with the greatest of the Nazgul more. I was disappointed that they didn't give Snowmane's eulogy/tombstone inscription, though.
"Faithful servant and master's bane,
Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane"

4 - Modern culture is obsessed with homosexuality. It's funny the way homosexuality's rise in the public eye has set back the concept of men having plain old friendships. In Tolkein's day, one man saying he loved another didn't have to mean that those men were "lovers".

5 - Faramir and his men being sent out of the city to die, with Pippin's song in the background... that was beautiful.

6 - Frodo and Sam in orc gear reminded me of the goblins in Labyrinth.

7 - Racism? Possibly, in a way. Before the advent of our culture's deciding that everyone is equal no matter what, "white" people didn't have any problems saying "We are literate, we have a representative government, real scientific advancement, and a unified nation. Of course our culture is superior to those tribes of spear-wielding barbarians". Not that white people are better, but that their culture was more advanced. So yeah, if asked Tolkein probably would have said "Of course Europe has a superior culture to, for example, the Cherokee nation".  Doesn't mean he necessarily hated other races or viewed them as inferior... it's just that he probably recognized which culture was more advanced. And if some of that seeped through to his writing, then so be it. He created a world loosely based on what his experience was, as any of us would do, if we weren't actively trying to avoid it.
Some of it could be viewed as basic color symbolism. We view evil as being associated with dark and with the color black, and good as being associated with pure white, and the presence of light. Hence Shelob's hatred of the starligh vial Frodo carried, and the Nazgul's Fell Beasts being driven off by the light from Gandalf's staff.
mazaite

Bending Unit
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« Reply #221 on: 12-24-2003 13:35 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
 OMG did you guys SEE Orlando Bloom? Is he hotttt or what?!!!11one

::swoon::

Why do women always seem to unanimously find the most androgine, hell even feminine looking men so "dreamy". Re Orlando Bloom, Leonardo DeCaprio, Most boy bands.

Michael Zaite
~FazeShift~

Moderator
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #222 on: 12-24-2003 14:10 »

Women see men as just defective women.
And visa versa.
Slurm Guy

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #223 on: 12-24-2003 14:51 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by ~FazeShift~:
Women see men as just defective women.
And visa versa.

Well, I don't find manly looking women attractive.
Mr. Potter

Professor
*
« Reply #224 on: 12-24-2003 14:53 »

At last I saw the movie yesterday along with the other two. Twelve hours in a movie theatre but I never felt tired. It was great.

Now, time for my extremely positive review:
This movie is to put it simply, breathtaking. It's highly emotional, very intense, majestic, and dramatic. The battle scenes are utterly amazing, nothing in the history of cinema can be compared with the Pelennor Fields. The emotional impact of this movie is incredible also, I found myself a little bit teary eyed in at least 5 parts of the movie.
The acting is excellent, from the little parts to the lead roles, everyone here was at its finest. Special mention goes to Sean Astin, Elijah Wood, Viggo Mortensen, Miranda Otto, Ian McKellen and Billy Boyd (in fact, everyone gets a special mention).
The technical aspects were top notch. Weta (both Digital and Workshop) is better in each movie and this was the culmination of all of their efforts for this trilogy. The cinematography, the art direction and the editing were also astonishing.
And at last, a thank you to Peter Jackson, he has made this past three Decembers unforgettable and has remind us why we love cinema, and what can be done in cinema when talent and passion are at hand.
TheMadCapper

Fluffy
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« Reply #225 on: 12-24-2003 14:55 »

I've often said that it's goofy the way girls swoon over beardless long-haired skinny Legolas. I mean, you don't hear most men saying "ooh baby, look at that woman! Her figure and face are so manly and coarse, it's soooo hot. I love all that facial hair too."
User_names_suck
Professor
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« Reply #226 on: 12-24-2003 15:08 »

look we dont want to get into this cliched argument of why men are different from women do we
bendy

Crustacean
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« Reply #227 on: 12-24-2003 15:59 »

Orlando Bloom IS hot.....  big grin
BendingUnit4000

Delivery Boy
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« Reply #228 on: 12-24-2003 19:46 »
« Last Edit on: 12-24-2003 19:46 »

Not that my opinion matters in any way..... but after returning from the final installment of quite possibly the best film trilogy ever made, I must say I am not dissappointed. The action sequences alone are the best that the movie screen has witnessed EVER, great CGI, acting, and musical scores just makes it even more enjoyable.

But anyway this isn't a cinema review thread, it's just now I'm depressed that something this fantastic won't be coming to a theater next year   frown

P.S. Viggo Mortenson and Billy Boyd have pretty decent singing voices.
Action Jacktion

Professor
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« Reply #229 on: 12-24-2003 22:39 »
« Last Edit on: 12-24-2003 22:39 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by TheMadCapper:
They skipped some very important moments, in my opinion. Gandalf's confrontation with Saruman and Saruman's conquering of the shire after being reft of his magic (and death by Wormtongue's hand) spring to mind.
Believe it or not, the movie handles Saruman in exactly the way Tolkien said the character should be handled if a movie cut out his proper death.  Back in the 1950s, a movie version of LotR was considered, and Tolkien said that if it didn't kill Saruman in the Shire, it should just have Gandalf say that he was powerless and would have to remain in his tower, and then get on with the story.
TheMadCapper

Fluffy
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« Reply #230 on: 12-24-2003 23:04 »

That just makes logical sense. If you don't include Gandalf stripping him of his rank and power, it makes no sense to have Wormtongue kill him in the Shire.

I just think they should have included it all. Maybe they will in the extended edition dvd.
Slurm Guy

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #231 on: 12-24-2003 23:06 »

I couldn't imagine a 50's movie version of LOTR. It would have been impossible to make. I guess that's why they didn't make it, but I don't know.
Anyway, did anybody else think that Sam's daughter was a hot midget woman?
Mr. Potter

Professor
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« Reply #232 on: 12-24-2003 23:37 »

Hmm, Sam's daughter is Sean Astin's daughter.
LAN.gnome

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #233 on: 12-25-2003 05:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by TheMadCapper:
I just think they should have included it all. Maybe they will in the extended edition dvd.

Nope; not a chance, really. Jackson's distaste for that section of "Return of the King" was such that he didn't even bother to film it.
Grim

Professor
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« Reply #234 on: 12-25-2003 07:11 »

Yay! Return of the King finally opens here in Australia 2moro!

That is gonna make work 2moro go soo slow!
alexvilagosh

Goose Patrol
Space Pope
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« Reply #235 on: 12-25-2003 18:50 »
« Last Edit on: 12-25-2003 18:50 »

Guess who's seeing ROTK today, on its opening day here! Me!

Only 5 hours to go!

Actually, I saw the other two movies on their days of release too. Huzzah!
alexvilagosh

Goose Patrol
Space Pope
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« Reply #236 on: 12-26-2003 04:03 »
« Last Edit on: 12-26-2003 04:03 »

Just back from it now. $25 and 3 1/2 hours well spent. Amazing. Everything I could have hoped for. The best one of the trilogy. Having not read the books, it was even more exciting as I had no idea what would happen next. The cinema was full of course, and everyone in there was a nerd. It was great.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nixorbo:
At the very end, when Bilbo asked Frodo about The Ring, and Frodo says, "I lost it," was anyone else half expecting him to follow that up with "in a volcano"?
I indeed did! Wierd.

Very, very good.
the real amy

Crustacean
*
« Reply #237 on: 12-26-2003 09:03 »

Hey guys,

This is my first post on this topic. It's good to find a decent LOTR forum.

Anyway, I'm still buzzing from seeing ROTK today (Aussie opening). Are we allowed to discuss the movie or are spoilers not allowed?
the real amy

Crustacean
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« Reply #238 on: 12-26-2003 09:05 »

oh .... never mind
Gleno

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #239 on: 12-26-2003 09:33 »

I saw it today as well....full house and had to queue for an hour beforehand....I thought it was good....yeah good, I can't say great because I dunno, after sitting through the first two films I was just wanting to see the end....

I've read the books so I knew how it ended anyway....

Welcome to PEEL the real amy....try not to double post, (we all did it the first time)....use the edit button and enjoy your stay  big grin
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