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Xanfor

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« Reply #400 on: 11-08-2011 04:12 »

That's what I always figured. He couldn't beat Vader so he knew he wasn't going to escape either way and he chose the only option that would get Luke to leave.

And, somewhat more sinisterly, make Luke's dislike of Vader even more personal.

coldangel

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« Reply #401 on: 11-08-2011 13:14 »

Yeah, kind of a dark move for a Jedi, deliberately setting a son against his father. Dunno why Kenobi and Yoda didn't hook up and join the rebel alliance. Together they probably could have ended the conflict sooner, rather than putting it all on the shoulders of some dumb punk from Tattooine.
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« Reply #402 on: 11-08-2011 13:37 »

Or if Obi Wan could appear anywhere as a ghost, he could have just haunted the shit out of the Emperor and Vader until they gave up their evil plans.

Or at least spied a bit for the Alliance:
"No Bothans died for these plans, because Master Kenobi drew them rough hand on his ghost notebook, Master Kenobi..."
"Ok bear with me, my ghost pen ran out of ink, basically the weakness is here, a small exhaust port right beside this coffee stain..."
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« Reply #403 on: 11-08-2011 14:20 »

Dunno why Kenobi and Yoda didn't hook up and join the rebel alliance.

'Cos we had to set everything up neat and prepackaged for the first film! Um, the fourth!
DrThunder88

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« Reply #404 on: 11-14-2011 08:01 »
« Last Edit on: 11-14-2011 08:02 »

Or if Obi Wan could appear anywhere as a ghost, he could have just haunted the shit out of the Emperor and Vader until they gave up their evil plans.

Or at least spied a bit for the Alliance:
"No Bothans died for these plans, because Master Kenobi drew them rough hand on his ghost notebook, Master Kenobi..."
"Ok bear with me, my ghost pen ran out of ink, basically the weakness is here, a small exhaust port right beside this coffee stain..."
I got the feeling Obi-Wan had been haunting Vader since being struck down, perhaps dropping not so subtle hints that Luke was Vader's son and laying the emotional groundwork for Vader's redemption.  Vader didn't seem surprised when the Emperor mentioned the name "Skywalker" in the original ESB.  Obi-Wan did mention that he'd be more powerful dead than alive, and being able to invade Vader's consciousness would be a pretty powerful thing to be able to do.
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« Reply #405 on: 11-17-2011 16:11 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAiLxY4Czxs
coldangel

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« Reply #406 on: 11-26-2011 07:47 »

Some observations I've made:

In episode III: RotS, the first Death Star is under construction, but doesn't become operational until IV: A New Hope, about twenty years later. Yet only, what... a year or two after that, in RotJ, they have the replacement up and running? Were they building two at the same time or what?

In Episode VI: RotJ, Leia says that she has some early memories of her mother, but Padme/Amidala died in childbirth in III, so how the fuck?

In V: TESB, Yoda and ghost obi-wan both plead with Luke not to go to Bespin to help his friends, stating that his training is incomplete and that he isn't ready to face Vader. Yet in VI: RotJ, he returns to Dagobah and without any further training is promptly informed by Yoda that his training is complete and all he has yet to do is... confront Vader. Say what? Methinks Yoda went a little senile.

And come to that, how is it that Luke could have become a full-fledged Jedi after an hour or so of vague instruction from Ben onboard the Falcon and a further couple of days of running about the swamp with Yoda when, after ten years of full-time Jedi instruction from Obi-Wan, Anakin was still considered a padawan? What the fuck? I mean, obviously Ben and Yoda had to give him the crash-course, but if Anakin, supposedly the most powerful force-sensitive individual who ever lived, still took a decade to reach the level of full Jedi, how could some lowly dirt-farmer do it with only a couple of days of training?

Oh and the whole idea of Luke being the Jedi's last hope at defeating the Empire... if that were the case then shouldn't Obi-Wan have raised the kid himself and taught him the ways of the force instead of dumping him off onto the hick family? What was up with that? Kenobi goes off to live as a hermit for two decades and then finally drops the bombshell, 'oh yeah, now you need to become a Jedi - here's an introduction pamphlet and an intensive three-day orientation, have at it!' Wonderful forward-planning there. All the hope for justice and freedom in the galaxy is put on-hold because the inbred Lars family doesn't want Luke to go off adventuring? Logically, Kenobi and Yoda should have been training both Luke and his sister from birth - especially considering the apparent age-limit for the beginning of Jedi training. The whole thing is stupid.

Here's another thing - how come Luke takes Ben's death so damn hard? He witnessed his aunt and uncle, the two people who raised him since he was a newborn and were effectively his parents, burned to skeletal remains and took it fairly well. Ben Kenobi, however, was virtually a stranger to him - someone he was only vaguely aware of as just some strange old hermit. He hangs with the old creep for a day and when the guy is killed it's like Luke's whole universe has been shattered. What's up with that? Never gave a second thought to the couple who'd been there for him his whole life, but... 'Noooooo! Not the weird old coot who lived in the mountains and who I had nothing to do with until this morning!!!'
Somethin' wrong with that boy.
any1else

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« Reply #407 on: 11-26-2011 10:15 »

Having been an adult when I first saw the entirety of all those movies (this past week) I was able to pick on up all the weirdness straight away. I feel bad for the people who saw the original trilogy as kids (and even worse for the kids that saw the newer three) and thought that these movies actually meant something.

And I am thoroughly disappointed in the lack of a full on make-out session between Luke an Leia. After years of hearing people make a big deal about how they kissed even though they were brother and sister, I was expecting a little more than a brief peck on the lips. Pfft. Oh no, now their children will be horribly disfigured! wtf?

But otherwise I guess they were good for passing the time. The added in special FX were even funnier than the hand-made costumes. I don't understand how anybody thought adding those in to the old movies was a good idea, and I now completely understand that South Park episode..
winna

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« Reply #408 on: 11-26-2011 11:50 »

Time to remake the entire original trilogy!
leiapadme77

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« Reply #409 on: 11-26-2011 18:50 »
« Last Edit on: 11-26-2011 18:57 »

Some observations I've made:

In episode III: RotS, the first Death Star is under construction, but doesn't become operational until IV: A New Hope, about twenty years later. Yet only, what... a year or two after that, in RotJ, they have the replacement up and running? Were they building two at the same time or what?

Yes actually, they were. Also, once you build something once, it's easier to do it again much faster. And the empire has grown since 0BBY and the emperor has a lot more resources and stormtroopers to build such a thing.


In Episode VI: RotJ, Leia says that she has some early memories of her mother, but Padme/Amidala died in childbirth in III, so how the fuck?


Bail Organa was a good friend of Padme, so he had many pictures/videos of her. This is actually talked about in some of the books. Also, when you are force sensitive you can see 'visions' from the past.



In V: TESB, Yoda and ghost obi-wan both plead with Luke not to go to Bespin to help his friends, stating that his training is incomplete and that he isn't ready to face Vader. Yet in VI: RotJ, he returns to Dagobah and without any further training is promptly informed by Yoda that his training is complete and all he has yet to do is... confront Vader. Say what? Methinks Yoda went a little senile.


Yoda is definitely senile. However, he felt Luke had completed his training after showing Yoda he could confront his father without turning to the dark side, and making the right decision to leave. Also, when Yoda says that he's about to die, so he can't really continuing training him. He knows Luke has the Jedi blood in him and the many days of training from ESB and he passed the test of not getting killed by Vader or turning to the dark side so I guess Yoda feels it was good enough, and now Luke can be a Jedi Knight.


And come to that, how is it that Luke could have become a full-fledged Jedi after an hour or so of vague instruction from Ben onboard the Falcon and a further couple of days of running about the swamp with Yoda when, after ten years of full-time Jedi instruction from Obi-Wan, Anakin was still considered a padawan? What the fuck? I mean, obviously Ben and Yoda had to give him the crash-course, but if Anakin, supposedly the most powerful force-sensitive individual who ever lived, still took a decade to reach the level of full Jedi, how could some lowly dirt-farmer do it with only a couple of days of training?


See my previous answer. Also, Luke is the spawn of one of the most powerful Jedi ever, so it's in his blood. And this is not the old republic, so there really aren't any rules on how fast a Jedi can be trained. Yoda has been training Jedi for 900 years, so he knows what he's doing. Also, he was on Dagobah for over three months. It is discussed elsewhere, that it took the Falcon about three months to reach Bespin without a working hyperdrive. So Luke spent many days doing nothing but training with Yoda.


Oh and the whole idea of Luke being the Jedi's last hope at defeating the Empire... if that were the case then shouldn't Obi-Wan have raised the kid himself and taught him the ways of the force instead of dumping him off onto the hick family? What was up with that? Kenobi goes off to live as a hermit for two decades and then finally drops the bombshell, 'oh yeah, now you need to become a Jedi - here's an introduction pamphlet and an intensive three-day orientation, have at it!' Wonderful forward-planning there. All the hope for justice and freedom in the galaxy is put on-hold because the inbred Lars family doesn't want Luke to go off adventuring? Logically, Kenobi and Yoda should have been training both Luke and his sister from birth - especially considering the apparent age-limit for the beginning of Jedi training. The whole thing is stupid.


Perhaps. But they know Leia is always an option as well. That's why they say "There is another" She is just as force sensitive. They agreed to come out of hiding and train Luke when the timing was right. And Obi Wan did not like the idea of bringing Luke to his family, because Lars is kind of an asshole and kept Obi Wan away most of the time. (Obi Wan pretty much stalked Luke his entire life) But they figured anything was better than than Vader and/or the Emperor finding the children and training them in the dark side. The more 'force sensitive' people there are in one concentrated area, the easier it is for another force sensitive person to find them. Like How Luke can feel everything happening on Bespin to Han and Leia. And how Vader is constantly chasing the Falcon even though Luke is not on board. He senses his child (leia) on the Falcon. I know that sounds ridiculous, but that's one of the reasons they separated the children at birth, also in case one of them was found, they still had a chance with the other.


Here's another thing - how come Luke takes Ben's death so damn hard? He witnessed his aunt and uncle, the two people who raised him since he was a newborn and were effectively his parents, burned to skeletal remains and took it fairly well. Ben Kenobi, however, was virtually a stranger to him - someone he was only vaguely aware of as just some strange old hermit. He hangs with the old creep for a day and when the guy is killed it's like Luke's whole universe has been shattered. What's up with that? Never gave a second thought to the couple who'd been there for him his whole life, but... 'Noooooo! Not the weird old coot who lived in the mountains and who I had nothing to do with until this morning!!!'
Somethin' wrong with that boy.


Luke knew Ben well before episode IV. Like I said before, Ben was always "watching over" him. And as sad as Luke is about his Aunt and Uncle, he kinda hated them. They forced him to work all the time and were verbally abusive and didn't agree with any of Luke's values and dreams for the future. Luke wanted to get out of there as soon as possible, and as soon as they were dead, he could move on and go be a Jedi with Obi Wan!
So when Obi Wan dies, it's pretty much the last person he was close to. And he thought when he left Tatooine with him they would have many years together, with Ben teaching him to become a Jedi like his father. Ben was also the closest person to his father, so Luke want's to get to know him more, and hear stories about his father, because his stupid uncle refused to talk about Anakin. But when he dies all his dreams come crashing down, so of course he's gonna be upset.
winna

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« Reply #410 on: 11-27-2011 02:53 »

It really sounds like Luke is an ungrateful dick.  I guess it runs in the family. roll eyes
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« Reply #411 on: 11-27-2011 15:16 »

Finally working through the Thawn trilogy after finding all three books for less than a fiver.  Certainly better written than previous Star Wars books I have read.

The main thing about the books is that they reminded me  how disapointed I was with the revalation in the movies of what the clone wars were.  When I was yonger I always through the Clone Wars were about clones of Jedi who went nuts (a la Joruus C'baoth) instead of what we got.

Still the books are a good read.
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« Reply #412 on: 11-27-2011 16:41 »

In episode III: RotS, the first Death Star is under construction, but doesn't become operational until IV: A New Hope, about twenty years later. Yet only, what... a year or two after that, in RotJ, they have the replacement up and running? Were they building two at the same time or what?

Like all of life's great questions, the answer can be found in the movie Contact:
"Why build one when you could build two for twice the price?"
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« Reply #413 on: 11-27-2011 22:12 »
« Last Edit on: 11-27-2011 22:28 »


In episode III: RotS, the first Death Star is under construction, but doesn't become operational until IV: A New Hope, about twenty years later. Yet only, what... a year or two after that, in RotJ, they have the replacement up and running? Were they building two at the same time or what?

I agree in that was lame beyong lame from Lucas.. specially if you consider all the context.. aparently that scene was to have TIE Fighters (instead of the V-Wings) and Imperator class destroyers (instead of the Venators) but Lucas denied both stating "the empire will have 20 years to develop and build them" .. if thats so George how so  then you are SO eager to make a monumental screw up showing up the Death Star  I allready in an advanced stage of construction 19 years before it was completed? (renember that it was finally operational during ANH, tought the EU said it fired before to destroy Despire penal colony) Even doing lame jokes about it being made by expensive labour , problems and so..

Sorry.. but for me the sollution is both atractive and effective: For me thats the Death Star prototype from the maw installation (Kevin Anderson's Jedi Academy trilogy).. it was stated in the expanded universe (wich lucas loved to fuck-up with) that they made a prototype before (wich was suspiciously in the very same finished status as the one showed in the movie) in wich all the experiments, corrections and stuff was performed until all was shorted out .. then the final death star was completed wich is the one we see in ANH.. it fits beautifully with EU and makes sense ..  since the movie does not say or confirm that it what we see its the final Death Star I and the only word is Lucas saying nosenses .. i will simply asume it was the prototype.. there easy-wease big grin

Quote
In Episode VI: RotJ, Leia says that she has some early memories of her mother, but Padme/Amidala died in childbirth in III, so how the fuck?

Agreed that it was a mayor screw up by Lucas too, but at least it can be explained that it was related with Leia being force sensitive and maybe Bail showing her as a child photos and videos (ass said by Leiapadme) of her real mother maybe evocating from her those force memories..  also some people have said that she was refering to her adoptive mother who might have died early in Leia's life (acording to starwars wikia) this later theory is debatable..


Quote

In V: TESB, Yoda and ghost obi-wan both plead with Luke not to go to Bespin to help his friends, stating that his training is incomplete and that he isn't ready to face Vader. Yet in VI: RotJ, he returns to Dagobah and without any further training is promptly informed by Yoda that his training is complete and all he has yet to do is... confront Vader. Say what? Methinks Yoda went a little senile.

While not explained in the movie, Luke had his confrontation with Vader wich was quite severe and shocking (losing his hand, getting owned, finding out that his most hatred enemy is his father.. etc) and Luke walked away from it clearly changed, in ROTJ we clearly see Luke as a Jedi Knight.. he is more calm, he thinks things before act, he is more cautious an serene.. a year has passed between the 2 movies and between them Luke for sure has done things (explained in the EU books) and he definitily learned from his defeat and didnt became closer to the dark side..

When Yoda sees him again Luke is clearly changed.. my opinion is that Yoda sees how Luke has coped with all events and knows that Luke has gone the right way and its now a Jedi Knight.. not much to learn at that point and all the Jedi "pompous" rules, codes and stuff are not usefull now and they surelly can be found as documentation somewhere else wich Luke can study by himself (and he surelly did in that year between..)
Luke having to confront Vader imho is due to Vader being the last of Luke's fears or big issues/osbtacles.. Luke cant be free or center totally 100% his mind as long as Vader, his father and a lord of the dark side, is arround calling and tempting him.. Luke must confront him and either redeem or defeat him...  note that Vader was the one Luke had to confront.. Yoda doesnt even mention that he had to confront the Emperor who is the main evil and target here

Quote
And come to that, how is it that Luke could have become a full-fledged Jedi after an hour or so of vague instruction from Ben onboard the Falcon and a further couple of days of running about the swamp with Yoda when, after ten years of full-time Jedi instruction from Obi-Wan, Anakin was still considered a padawan? What the fuck? I mean, obviously Ben and Yoda had to give him the crash-course, but if Anakin, supposedly the most powerful force-sensitive individual who ever lived, still took a decade to reach the level of full Jedi, how could some lowly dirt-farmer do it with only a couple of days of training?

Agreed that Luke training was precarious and rushed tought probably when writing ANH Lucas was not thinking in what was going to be the final pompous religious-monk-like training of the true Jedi..
still.. Obi Wan introduced him to the force.. Luke probably "studied" and trained something by himself (probably there was info on the Jedi, the empire for sure would have banned it but the rebel alliance most surelly had preserved some as most rebel alliance leaders knew the Jedi personally during the clone wars and even way before) Yoda then guided and oriented him in the correct way , helped him confront his biggest isssues (Vader, guiding the force.. ) and the rest he had to do it himself ..
The Jedi training its stated as being anticuated, unflexible and ancient-conservative.. and partially responsable of the Jedi being so filled with self-pride and rightness that they didnt saw what came up them.. in EU sources is also stated by Luke that the new Jedi Order would change a lot that.. Jedis would be trained from older ages and not only from kids... no "celibate no-sex" anymore (this probably due to it being writen before Lucas showed the jedi order in the prequels) and so...

Quote

Oh and the whole idea of Luke being the Jedi's last hope at defeating the Empire... if that were the case then shouldn't Obi-Wan have raised the kid himself and taught him the ways of the force instead of dumping him off onto the hick family? What was up with that? Kenobi goes off to live as a hermit for two decades and then finally drops the bombshell, 'oh yeah, now you need to become a Jedi - here's an introduction pamphlet and an intensive three-day orientation, have at it!' Wonderful forward-planning there. All the hope for justice and freedom in the galaxy is put on-hold because the inbred Lars family doesn't want Luke to go off adventuring? Logically, Kenobi and Yoda should have been training both Luke and his sister from birth - especially considering the apparent age-limit for the beginning of Jedi training. The whole thing is stupid.

Agreed.. i can understand Kenoby watching over Luke after making sure Leia was safe with Bail.. but cant see if training at early ages was "so crucial" why he didnt trained Luke until he accidentally bumped into him..

maybe Owen forbiden him.. Owen most surelly knew what happent to Anakin and he was afraid of Luke going the same patch.. and maybe Obi Wan was still waiting until the right time..
probably when Lucas wrote ANH he tought about Obi Wan like an old Jedi who knew Luke's father and who just happent to live nearby in exile.. not as someone who was responsable for Luke being there and watching over him.. after all Obi-Wan was clearly not doing anything to fight the empire or help the rebellion.. in Lucas mind at that point he probably had given up hope and was just tring to survive.. the deeper stoty being developed for TESN

Still we can partially try to explain it because all this incident was triggered by Leia being captured and the empire about to defeat the rebellion .. maybe we can asume Ben saw that one of the two "last hopes" was about to became lost and the last hope of the galaxy against the emperor was going to fall... he had to act now or never and thats why he took Luke and went on..


Quote

Here's another thing - how come Luke takes Ben's death so damn hard? He witnessed his aunt and uncle, the two people who raised him since he was a newborn and were effectively his parents, burned to skeletal remains and took it fairly well. Ben Kenobi, however, was virtually a stranger to him - someone he was only vaguely aware of as just some strange old hermit. He hangs with the old creep for a day and when the guy is killed it's like Luke's whole universe has been shattered. What's up with that? Never gave a second thought to the couple who'd been there for him his whole life, but... 'Noooooo! Not the weird old coot who lived in the mountains and who I had nothing to do with until this morning!!!'
Somethin' wrong with that boy.

Well Luke did take Hard Owen and Beru's deaths.. we see him totally shocked and filled with hate while watching their corpses (with the dramatic music and all big grin ) .. but they were allready dead when he arrived...
Obi Wan was different because Luke watched him die.. when Luke arrives at the hangar he sees Obi-Wan fighting Vader.. neither of them seems wining or loosing and then all the sudden his last beloved father-like (or closest) person gives up and dies in front of him.. imho its not the same to see the corpses of your uncles/fathers allready dead (wich is quite shocking and Luke certainly is shocked when he sees them , also we dont see the full reaction, only a dramatic shot from behind) than see a beloved one being murdered in front of you while you cant do anything (or maybe you wonder if you could).. in this case i see both reactions ok and fitting..
Also Lucas didnt introduced much drama about his uncles after that in the movie.. in the novel Luke confeses to Leia that he lost his uncles , as well as Ben and how hard it was ..  also stated in a line while Luke boards his X-Wing fighter he wonders how many of the other pilots have pending matters with the empire too.. impling that at least partially he is out for revenge


Finally working through the Thawn trilogy after finding all three books for less than a fiver.  Certainly better written than previous Star Wars books I have read.

The main thing about the books is that they reminded me  how disapointed I was with the revalation in the movies of what the clone wars were.  When I was yonger I always through the Clone Wars were about clones of Jedi who went nuts (a la Joruus C'baoth) instead of what we got.

Still the books are a good read.

They are imho THE BEST Star Wars books ever along Rogue Squadron books (at least the first ones)..
If they ever would to be made into movies, oficially or by fans it would be awesome..

The new republic already working but still struggling with the empire,  a main "villain" wich is not a dark side of the force or an evil emperor.. its just an Imperial millitary genious that wanted to fight back the new republic with millitary assets as a millitary leader and not to just kill or defeat the enemy.. Thrawn was an elegant reasonable leader, it barelly shows any trace of evil (only exception is his use of the Noghry and he was basically continuing the empire betrayal there) he even goes to conquest alliance worlds by using the minimal force possible and when conquest not taking any action against the civilians or goberment who surendered (as said by him not even recluting people for the army, just needed the resources of the planet and the location as a conquest asset.. but would respect the population and even goberment as long as they surrender to the empire)

Its a quite good book trilogy
~FazeShift~

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« Reply #414 on: 11-27-2011 22:28 »

Me want:
ShepherdofShark

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« Reply #415 on: 11-27-2011 22:44 »
« Last Edit on: 11-27-2011 22:47 »

The shirt is cool, but do you really want one that needs batteries?

Sorry, I mean cells don't I?

And...

Some observations I've made:

The beeping noise....


Nutmeg1729

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« Reply #416 on: 11-27-2011 23:19 »



Yes actually, they were. Also, once you build something once, it's easier to do it again much faster. And the empire has grown since 0BBY and the emperor has a lot more resources and stormtroopers to build such a thing.


Something of that size, and of that magnitude of power, would take years to build regardless of whether or not they've done it before.
coldangel

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« Reply #417 on: 11-28-2011 00:11 »

Thank you, everybody, for covering up for George Lucas's idiocy.
Nutmeg1729

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« Reply #418 on: 11-28-2011 00:21 »

I'm not - he screwed up big time and I know that.
coldangel

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« Reply #419 on: 11-28-2011 00:29 »

Let's get him, guys!
Bend-err

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« Reply #420 on: 11-28-2011 00:35 »

"Lets watch the film before George Lucas changes it again."
i_c_weiner

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« Reply #421 on: 11-28-2011 00:54 »
« Last Edit on: 11-28-2011 00:56 »

Thank you, everybody, for covering up for George Lucas's idiocy.
Hey, the Death Star idiocy is something from the Original Trilogy. I think it's okay to cover up plot holes that are resident to those movies alone. Once you try to reason through something by using examples from the Prequels, however...


And, Faze, where'd you find that shirt?
Nevermind, it's on Think Geek and is now sold out...
Javier Lopez

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« Reply #422 on: 11-28-2011 07:23 »

You know whats idiocy?

The Death Star II is bigger than the DS-I .. thats due to the second one being more powerfull than the first one , among other things to fix problems the first one had like requiring 24h recharge between firing (wich renders it not much usefull against big attack fleets) and infamous plot exaust holes...

In the old guides it was stated the DS-I was 120km diameter and DS-II was 160km...

then not much later the DS-I was retconed and sized up to 160km diameter and the DS-II was to ~200 ...

Now "oficially" the DS-I is 160km diameter and the DS-II is.... 900km..


Seriously... 900km? with the first being 6 times smaller diameter (wich would make it a hell lot smaller in mass and volume? for the same porpouse? who the frak tought that?

Its like a "i like them biiiiiiiiiiiiig" issue with somebody's penis....

Again in my mind DS-1 is 160km and DS-2 is 200ish
i_c_weiner

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« Reply #423 on: 11-28-2011 07:33 »
« Last Edit on: 11-28-2011 07:34 »

One could probably do some scaling and proportionality calculations by looking at frames from both films to determine how much bigger Death Star II was in comparison to Death Star I. Base it off of the relative size of Vader's TIE Fighter in Star Wars to the relative size of the TIE Fighters chasing Lando in Return of the Jedi. Or some other metric, whatever you want, since I'm not going to put the time and effort into doing the pain-staking research.


But if Death Star II is 6 times bigger than Death Star I, then Endor is much larger than we think it is...
leiapadme77

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« Reply #424 on: 11-28-2011 08:34 »

It's actually only 6 months between EP V and EP VI.
But Luke goes through a lot of training/meditating in solitude on Tatooine where he also builds his own lightsaber. These things also help him become the Jedi Knight we see in ROTJ.

The first death star was not started till 19BBY, I can't remember exactly when it was finished, but who said it took the full 19 years between ROTS and ANH? I think I actually recall reading somewhere that it was done very quickly.
Therefore, it's very possible they could've built half a second Death Star within the four years between ANH and ROTJ. Again, I'm also pretty sure they were already working on a second, more powerful death star during 0BBY (ANH) in addition to the one they already had.
And the second death star was described as being more powerful, but I don't think it was that much bigger.
I really need to spend some time on Wookieepedia but I'm on my phone lying in bed watching Empire....

Anyway, speaking of books, I highly recommend reading the Revenge of the Sith Novel by Matthew Stover. He takes Lucas' story and adds his own personal touches (including improving dialogue) and turns it into pure GOLD. Sooo much better than the movie. He captures everything so perfectly and makes Anakin's fall so much slower and more depressing and real.
 And it includes all the additional story lines and scenes that did not make it to the final cut of the film. It's probably one of the best books I've ever read. I read it again about every two years...it's about time again actually.
Also, the book right after that, Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader is fantastic as well.
Gopher

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« Reply #425 on: 11-28-2011 09:09 »

tl;dr summary of this page: "Star Wars could be real dammit! Quit nit-picking at my fantasy universe!"
coldangel

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*
« Reply #426 on: 11-28-2011 09:51 »

Why would the second Death Star need to be more powerful? It can already blow up an entire planet in a split second... wouldn't more power be kind of redundant? What do they want to do, blow up entire solar-systems?

Also, something that occasionally bugs me - how do they move it around? We've seen it under power moving at sublight velocity, but for it to serve any practical purpose it'd need to be FTL-capable otherwise it'd take centuries to move to the next planet. Are we to believe that something the size of a small moon has a hyperdrive? I can't quite imagine shifting that much mass into hyperspace - you'd tear the Universe a new arsehole.

I don't know why it needed to be a giant sphere either. The superlaser assembly couldn't take up all that mass. Just seems like a stupidly huge thing to have to build and maintain.
Tachyon

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #427 on: 11-28-2011 09:57 »

Why would the second Death Star need to be more powerful? It can already blow up an entire planet in a split second... wouldn't more power be kind of redundant? What do they want to do, blow up entire solar-systems?

Someone touched on this up page: the power of the beam hasn't changed, but the cycle time has been greatly shortened.

Gopher

Fallback Guy
Space Pope
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« Reply #428 on: 11-28-2011 10:07 »
« Last Edit on: 11-28-2011 10:08 »

coldangel: well, suppose they need to take out not just one planet with rebels, but three occupying the same solar system. The original death star is clearly inadequate; it takes a full 24 hours to recharge, as someone noted, so once they blow up one planet, the other two have 24 hours to counter-attack.

As for why it's a giant sphere, I'll address that in two parts.

First, why is it a sphere? Because, if you're going to make something really damned big, a sphere is the strongest shape for resisting it's own gravitational pull. Globviously. Really, you should be embarassed for including the sphere part in your question.

Second, why is it so giant at all? Well, once you engage in a long-term military strategy that involves blowing up whole planets all willy-nilly, it pays to plan ahead. If the rate at which they build death stars continues to increase at the current geometric rate, and the time between construction and destruction remains constant, then even if they maintain the current average number of planets destroyed by each death star before it is itself destroyed by a rag-tag team of minimally-equipped rebels at less than 1, the number of planets destroyed by death stars will exceed the number of habitable planets in the galaxy within, at most, a few millenia. Eventually, as long as the Empire was not stopped and eliminated (and one can safely assume that their own long-term plans do not include ever being destroyed), the galaxy is going to run out of planets altogether. They're going to need someplace else to live.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #429 on: 11-28-2011 10:45 »

The gravity argument doesn't hold much... empty space, since the majority of the interior is empty space. Hangars and accommodation and tunnels for attacking the power core. If it had a significant gravity field then it would have been logical for the decks to be concentric in order to take advantage of it. They aren't. They're clearly shown to be flat cross-sections with artificial gravity pulling toward the station's south pole. it would have been a waste of energy to have the gravplates constantly redirecting against the pull of an existing gravitational field.
Nutmeg1729

Urban Legend
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« Reply #430 on: 11-28-2011 10:51 »

After reading Leia's last post I went on Amazon and had a look at some of the customer reviews for that book.

This made me laugh more than anything I've read in a long time.

Quote
As we all know, the story of Anakin Skywalker is essentially a tragedy for our time, akin to some of the works of Shakespeare and Marlowe, it truly is that profound. However, none of the novelisations of the films have truly expressed the element of tragedy until now.

I like Star Wars as much as the next person, and I grew up watching the original trilogy with my dad. But... wow. Just wow.
Javier Lopez

Urban Legend
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« Reply #431 on: 11-28-2011 11:14 »

Yeah the DeathStar II being more powerfull is explained as a revision to adress the recharging problem..

When developed the DeathStar-I was tought to be unvulnerable and that it would at most attacked by a large scale assault (involving all the rebel fleet or similar) in wich case the Imperial fleet would be supporting it..

Still the role of the DS was not tought to destroy the rebel fleet , but rebel bases and enemy planets and to impose fear..

Then a single 30+ small fighter attack nails the Death Star.. the rebels are also clearly quite elusive with their main battleships scaping into hyperspace or out of the combat area quite fast..

So the Death Star was revised with the added role of taking on enemy fleets.. for that it clearly needed to be able to fire at a much faster rate than once every 24h..
Aparently thats why it more powerfull.. the new superlaser is able to fire at a quite reduced power output, not nearly enought to nail a planet but way more than enought to vaporice even a Home-One type calamary cruiser... and that rate of fire needed a more capable reactor able to recharge faster even considering the reduced firing output in the anti-ship role .. so its more like a side benefict to adress an issue than needing more power.

Also the DS-II being bigger adds in the psycological warfare factor.. the DS-I was scary as it could destroy your world instantly.. but was destroyed (and by a puny small fighter to add insult) after all .. the DS-II had it survived its building would be "bugs free" and even bigger and more powerfull, that would deliver a message to those who would tought they had a chance based on Yavin


As for calculating the size .. there is lots of info arround but its not much usefull..

lets ilustrate:

Many folks use this image to calculate the size:



If the Endor moon its similar in size to Earth (12000km diameter) this would support the ~900km diameter figure.. but this has big problems.. first the Death Star in this pic is NEARER to us than Endor moon .. second then we have THIS pic:



Clearly here the Death Star is not even close as big as the first one and even here we see that its still way closer to the "camera" than Endor as its before the horizon and not over or behind it...

And third: Do they really think ILM composed this shots basing on a hypotetical size of the Death Star against Endor at a certain orbit? The ILM guy (or girl) who composed this probably only had "make a shot with the planet from orbit and the death star orbiting it" .. no "orbit is 400km high" or "make sure its in correct proportion".. both shots (planet and DS) are models composed into one shot , the sizes can be edited and i say they are just edited in sizes until the ILM guy says "it looks ok" and Lucas says "yes it will work"

there is graphic evidence on the DS-I that its arround 160km diameter (size of the ecuatorial trench  the north pole trench and so compared to recognizable objects) so the DS-II must be bigger (as it uses a bigger laser and reactor) but not much , and of course not 6 times .. wich as you know the volume of a sphere is PiXD^3 so if the DS-I volume was 12861440 cubic km , a 900km DS-II would be 2289060000 or 178 times bigger.. this is plainly ridicolous... so simply put : either the DS-II its arround 200km most , or the DS-I was arround 700-800km diameter


As for size it makes sense.. after all the core of the station its a planet destroying weapon wich must have a badass output (even tought some sources say that rather than pure firepower it works by pushing part of the mass of a target into hyperspace , the resulting unbalance between the mass that wants to "go" into hyperspace and the rest of the mast wich doesnt is what blows apart the target..  maybe its just some fan wanking off with technobable but sounds interesting) and as seen in this diagram:

the reactor+superlaser system allready uses a large part of the internal volume and ALL its diameter..
and then you have that its a mobile battle station... all this must be able to move in hyperspace at a decent speed or it will be tactically useless and then you have that it must be protected against even large scale assaults and planetary defenses .. and then that its still a battle station, so it has to support troops , ships , fighters, and so on. ... so if we allready have to build such a ginormous structure to contain such large weapon and propulsion system why not use the "free" space to build a large base on it.. since you allready have a really large moving platform, taking advantage to use it as a super carrier and trop base makes sense too... (also lots of troops need to be stationed there.. otherwise an assault atempt could suceed and the Empire really wont like having this thing to turn againt them)
Javier Lopez

Urban Legend
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« Reply #432 on: 11-28-2011 11:17 »

but I'm on my phone lying in bed watching Empire....

Your cool factor increases by .... dont know.. a lot big grin


Quote
I highly recommend reading the Revenge of the Sith Novel by Matthew Stover. He takes Lucas' story and adds his own personal touches (including improving dialogue) and turns it into pure GOLD.

Agreed... i got some time ago and really its a good book... tought imho not as good as Zhan/Stackpole books... but way better than Kevin Anderson's or whoever wrote the black fleet things

edit: Ups double post, wanted to include this in my last one but somehow i screwed
Gopher

Fallback Guy
Space Pope
****
« Reply #433 on: 11-28-2011 14:11 »

The gravity argument doesn't hold much... empty space, since the majority of the interior is empty space. [...]

It still holds for a hollow spherical shell, which is like an arch extended to full 360s around all 3 dimensions. And in a universe where gravlift technology is cheap and reliable enough to make whole fucking cities just float in the clouds, there's no obvious reason not to use it to allow a simple and logical floor layout rather than awkward and fiddly concentric shells, never mind the fact that while it would certainly have had some gravitational pull, like all objects with mass, it would certainly have been less than the ~1g that is desired for general humanoid habitation, so there was going to be artificial gravity in any case.

Nyah.
Javier Lopez

Urban Legend
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« Reply #434 on: 11-28-2011 14:39 »

Yeah, definitily in a universe with inertial dumpers advanced enought to totally neutralize acelerations of hundreds if not thousands of Gs and as stated to levitate not only big ships but huge cities any gravity pull generated by the DS itself would be neglected or not matter by gravity generators...
the death star actually had several planes of decks..
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #435 on: 11-28-2011 14:59 »

Are you suggesting that George Lucas ignored the laws of physics for the sake of making a science-fantasy trilogy?  GASP!

What's next, are you suggesting that that intergalactic politics portrayed in Star Wars also unrealistic?
Gopher

Fallback Guy
Space Pope
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« Reply #436 on: 11-28-2011 15:03 »
« Last Edit on: 11-28-2011 15:18 »

What's unrealistic about the politics?
Javier Lopez

Urban Legend
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« Reply #437 on: 11-28-2011 16:10 »

Also the entire Trade Federation army wich was strong enought to take over an entire planet was controlled fully from a single starship in orbit..

Thats so smart... i mean, nobody will figure out that all they have to do is concentrate an attack on a single ship rather than defeating hundres of thousands of robots and tanks.. they will waste all their forces on a long war ... its so brilliant!
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #438 on: 11-28-2011 16:58 »

Nutmeg: I guess you need to read that book, huh? wink
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #439 on: 11-28-2011 17:17 »

*ikoLlkiL
M$Iopo$$L







B.   Nutmeg: I guess you need to read that book, huh? wink
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