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Author Topic: The Old Man and the Simpsons Thread  (Read 19713 times)
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JoshTheater

Space Pope
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« Reply #640 on: 11-26-2011 04:34 »
« Last Edit on: 11-26-2011 18:18 »

He just feels like the Designated Protaganist in this episode, and we are supposed to think Grimes is a douche when he has every reason to hate Homer.

This is where I disagree, and I suppose what causes me to enjoy the episode while you hate it. I don't think the writers intend for us to think that Homer is acting in the right and that Grimes is the bad guy. I think the entire point of the episode is that the writers completely expect us to know in the back of our minds that Homer is being a selfish idiot and that Grimes is responding appropriately and doesn't deserve any of the things that happen to him, and that it's supposed to be tragic and wrong. For me, the complete irony of that situation is where all the humor of the entire episode comes from. In the Simpsons universe, everyone still considers Homer the good guy and Grimes the jerk, even though the viewer can tell that's clearly not the case. It's how ridiculously warped that is, and the light that it shines on how much the viewer is willing to put up with Homer's inconsiderateness in other episodes when there aren't the same negative consequences for other people like there are for Grimes in Homer's Enemy, that makes the episode so devastatingly humorous.

On a different note, I actually despise the Peter Griffin comparison you make. I understand where you're coming from, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the implication. In Family Guy, the writers have license to make Peter as cruel, heartless, and selfish as they want as long as it makes the gag work. His horrible nature doesn't even have to serve the plot, it only has to serve the joke of the moment. He can be straight-up intentionally mean or even violent towards other characters and it's allowed because within the context of the show, Peter Griffin can usually get away with just about anything no matter how insane or fucked up. There are no boundaries whatsoever. This is not true of Homer in The Simpsons or Homer's Enemy.

How Peter's character is used in Family Guy is distinctly different from how Homer's idiocy is used in The Simpsons. Homer is NEVER intentionally cruel or mean (at least not through the first 10 seasons or so) to people who haven't done him wrong, even in Homer's Enemy. While you may think his inconsiderateness or obliviousness is over the top in that episode, he never crosses the line into actual intentional malevolent behavior towards anyone else...all of the bad things he does still come only from his lack of knowing any better. That's the writers' boundary for Homer's behavior, and they never cross that boundary in Homer's Enemy.

The differences don't stop there though. Whereas, like I said, the limits of Peter's character can be stretched completely out of proportion just for the sake of a single gag or joke, the limits of Homer's idiocy are usually only stretched to fit in to the plot of an episode. This is consistent with what happens in Homer's Enemy. And, while in Family Guy, like I also said, Peter can get away with literally anything and the extent of his malevolence can have little to no effect on how other people view him, in The Simpsons (and ESPECIALLY in Homer's Enemy) how stupid or inconsiderate Homer is is almost always met with some sort of response from other characters (in this case, the appropriate responses come from Grimes and it's highlighted how inappropriately everyone in the Simpsons universe responds to his behavior) and/or has some sort of bearing on the plotline.

So you can call Homer's character in Homer's Enemy too over-the-top as far as his stupidity or inconsiderateness goes...but comparing him to Peter Griffin in terms of overall behavior and what he's allowed to get away with? Not even close. If anything, the exploration of Homer's behavior and the consequences they create for Frank Grimes in Homer's Enemy is the antithesis of what Peter Griffin's character in Family Guy is. Peter's character and Family Guy as a whole is so far gone in terms of dark tone and terrible things happening that an episode like Homer's Enemy would never be possible in that universe. The fact that what happens in Homer's Enemy is so tragic and unlike the light tone that the show usually takes in regard to Homer's idiotic behavior in other episodes is what makes the episode work so darn well.

Edit: FFS, I need to stop doing this...the fact that The Simpsons is the one topic that can get me to make posts this long is kind of scary.
meisterPOOP

Professor
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« Reply #641 on: 11-26-2011 04:44 »

..Oh..and..yes..

and Homer's new name is.

'Joansee..

or the new dance when he is 'Joansing"....

Oh, my yes...I have seen that before.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #642 on: 11-26-2011 22:41 »

I can appreciate that you think we are supposed to think Homer is not in the right, but there are some writers on the show that say Frank Grimes was self righteous and deserved what happened to him, and there are a LOT of fans who say the same, which just smacks of designated villain.  I do agree with what you think though in that Grimes is supposed to be a realistic and nice guy driven insane by Homer's antics and the unfairness of Springfield (lord knows Lisa will be spending a considerable chunk of her future and paycheck on the psychiatrist's couch).  I think our opinions do match up the most

I still disagree with Homer not being like Peter Griffin though.  He's not as bad as modern day Peter, but Peter is the same in this episode, most of the time.  Peter isn't for the most part truly malicious, he's a retarded manchild for the most part is too much of a retard to understand how horrible he is being.  When you compare his abuse of Meg to Lois's, Peter's is like that of an incredibly selfish and annoying younger sibling (most of the time), while Lois's is cold and calculated.  Peter's really like an extremely spoilt six year old in the body of an adult, while Lois is a full blown sociopath.  Most of the time at least, Peter is getting worse as the years go on, (and a lot of his shitty behaviour is becoming less from being retarded and more from being a complete asshole.)   Similar to Homer.

I just felt that this episode removed all of Homer's qualities and turned him into a caricature of himself, he's just so ridiculously selfish and inconsiderate it's hard to take him seriously.  I would say this episode is one of the ones where Homer is truly acting at his worst.  Apart from that, I think the two of us mostly agree on the same things, since you love this episode for the reasons I hate it.  I still can appreciate the episode for what it was trying to do.  For me it's a sign that great ideas always don't make great episodes.
Bend-err

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #643 on: 12-12-2011 15:29 »

That was actually not a bad future episode, obviously with a Maggie not talking again:




Also, another Dr. Who reference in a Groening Cartoon:
Nibblonian Leader

Urban Legend
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« Reply #644 on: 12-12-2011 17:18 »

Isn't this the third or fourth time the simpsons have gone in the future?
tyraniak

Urban Legend
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« Reply #645 on: 12-12-2011 17:26 »

liked that Lisa went through  lesbian phase
Nibblonian Leader

Urban Legend
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« Reply #646 on: 12-12-2011 17:31 »

Lesbian phase... May have to rewatch...
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #647 on: 12-12-2011 20:56 »

Honestly, this was the first Simpsons episode I'd call good in 6 years. Matt Selman seems to be saving this show. All of his episodes have been far above the standard I'm used to from contemporary Simpsons and like I said, last night's was actually good. Not just good by modern Simpsons' standards, but genuinely good.

I mean, not incredibly good, only a 7/10 or so, but still! I laughed out loud multiple times and very few jokes actively upset me. And they didn't even cram in some stupid guest star!

It's worth noting that this was written by J. Stewart Burns, which I'm sure had a huge play into it being so good, but still, I'm very impressed with what Matt Selman is doing with this show.


And yes, the lesbian phase was a great gag.
SpaceMaN

Urban Legend
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« Reply #648 on: 12-12-2011 22:35 »

Also the "New New York" mention on the teleport door.  I was trying to find Fry in the cryogenics hall too.  The internet Lisa went to to Google looked a little familiar too.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #649 on: 12-13-2011 00:40 »

What's this? A new Simpsons episode which is good?...

*checks what year he's in*

Wait a minute, they've nearly all sucked since I joined Peel. Time to see what No Homers have to say...
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #650 on: 12-13-2011 01:13 »

this film is at its heart an exploration of both personal and cultural themes, exposing our exploitative relationship with our environment on a personal level and, by extension, as a society or species. The poo in this sense is a symbol of the by-products of our capitalist consumerism, with alan titchmarsh reflecting the role of the media; alerting us, ridiculing us, perhaps even judging us - the media becomes a collective conscience that binds us to our own environmental mortality. The refrain of titchmarsh is answered by our inability as a global society to take a truly global responsibilty.
Juliet

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« Reply #651 on: 12-13-2011 01:23 »

Have to say that I really enjoyed the episode. It was nice to see the grown up Bart, Lisa, and Maggie with their kids. Although I fund Maggies parts was funny. I loved the family photos part and yeah Lisa did had had a lesbian phase. What with her and the two girls I wonder. Lenny and Carl part was funny too.  
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #652 on: 12-13-2011 01:34 »

Isn't Lisa meant to be the president now or something?

I like the future episodes but they are such a massive continuity snarl now that it's hard to know which ones are meant to be canon.
SpaceMaN

Urban Legend
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« Reply #653 on: 12-13-2011 02:39 »

When they're all still the same age in season 55 I'll worry about the continuity.
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #654 on: 12-13-2011 03:06 »

I don't think any of the future episodes are supposed to be canon.

Lisa's Wedding was just a gypsy's story, another one was some Native Americans' drug-induced vision, another was a machine-generate prediction based on astrology... you get my point. Although, this episode did have some continuity with Bart's ex wife being from one of the past future-episodes, I believe so... well.
tyraniak

Urban Legend
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« Reply #655 on: 12-13-2011 04:57 »

What's this? A new Simpsons episode which is good?...

*checks what year he's in*

Wait a minute, they've nearly all sucked since I joined Peel. Time to see what No Homers have to say...

I'm also an NHC member, and reviews have been very good for that episode
Spacedal11

Space Pope
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« Reply #656 on: 12-13-2011 20:43 »
« Last Edit on: 12-14-2011 05:21 »

This episode makes me wish the show would just let the characters age. I would like to see teenage Bart and Lisa, Lisa going through her goth phase, the lesbian phase, etc. Bart is kind of a sad sack isn't he? Still I did like this episode a lot and I just loved Homer in this one. Poor Maggie, I wish they would let her talk.

EDIT: I've been thinking about this episode all day. Mainly how much I like Maggie, I really wish they would do more stuff with her. In this episode I kept thinking how much I wanted her to talk and how her plot was so disconnected from the rest of the plot, I thought it would end with all of them at the hospital. And even when Maggie comes in with her baby they're all just kind of meh about it. I would think it would mean a lot to Homer, because he and Maggie have a special relationship.
Bend-err

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #657 on: 12-14-2011 12:30 »

Dorsal Axe

Bending Unit
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« Reply #658 on: 12-14-2011 13:25 »

I don't think any of the future episodes are supposed to be canon.

Lisa's Wedding was just a gypsy's story, another one was some Native Americans' drug-induced vision, another was a machine-generate prediction based on astrology... you get my point. Although, this episode did have some continuity with Bart's ex wife being from one of the past future-episodes, I believe so... well.
This episode is canon. It's the only one that doesn't portray the future as a "vision" or "prediction" whatnot, and actually features a clear time jump. Maybe that's why it seemed somewhat tempered to me (and rightfully so). Much less "look how weird and kooky the future is!" and a lot of focus on how the characters have aged, and their relationships with their families. It's gotta be meaningful, I suppose.

Given that this episode has elements of the other episodes (character designs from all previous future eps, Maggie has an awesome singing voice, which was stated in Lisa's Wedding, Bart marries Jenda from Future-Drama etc.) then one assumes certain aspects of those visions apparently came true.

Anyway, personally I loved it. I could watch a whole series set in this future, as it seemed more interesting than most recent Simpsons episodes to me. So many rapid-fire gags, I'm sure I missed quite a few. I certainly missed Sideshow Bob being killed by a rake, and the painting being replaced with a ship, then a rocket ship, first time round.

And the obligatory Futurama reference (Old New York is shown underwater during the photo montage):
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #659 on: 12-14-2011 22:40 »

Nice Futurama ref big grin...

*pics*

The fourth one from the bottom (and the one at the very bottom), what the fuck is that on Lisa's daughters head?...
Bend-err

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #660 on: 12-14-2011 22:47 »

Some blue hair, probably cause her father has blue hair, or her grandma. Probably dyed
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #661 on: 12-14-2011 23:09 »

It looks, well, like some fans bad imagination drawing of their kid...
Spacedal11

Space Pope
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« Reply #662 on: 12-14-2011 23:35 »

I concur Otis: her name is Zia. That is not a name I would have expected Lisa to pick for her daughter.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #663 on: 12-14-2011 23:53 »

Zia, interesting. Yeah, I certainly wouldn't have predicted that either! I would also say she should look more like Milhouse than like Lisa too, because let's face it, everyone in the Van Houten family look like they're inbred anyway laff..
Bend-err

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #664 on: 12-15-2011 00:01 »

And since she has non of Milhouse's DNA she definitely shouldn't.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #665 on: 12-15-2011 00:23 »

Oh, who's the father then out of curiosity? I assumed the blue hair thing was a representation of Milhouse's DNA...
Bend-err

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #666 on: 12-15-2011 00:25 »

The father is not named as Lisa just got a sperm donation for it (worded differently in the episode of course). And the blue hair is just dye I would presume.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #667 on: 12-15-2011 00:27 »

It's freaking weird, it's like she's trying to make up for Milhouse's boldness, or something...
Spacedal11

Space Pope
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« Reply #668 on: 12-15-2011 04:26 »

I thought the blue hair was because of Milhouse or Marge. Also did anyone catch the names of Bart's sons?
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #669 on: 12-15-2011 05:32 »

That whole episode was depressing.  Lisa didn't receive a sperm donation; they genetically altered the outcome of the daughter by choosing whichever genes were superior out of Milhouse and Lisa; All of Lisa's genes were apparently superior as per the conversation, so arguably Zia is a clone of Lisa's DNA.
Dorsal Axe

Bending Unit
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« Reply #670 on: 12-15-2011 13:53 »
« Last Edit on: 12-15-2011 20:27 »

Also did anyone catch the names of Bart's sons?
They're never given, which is an incredibly strange ommission. Given what they were parodying though, I'd say Ari and Uzi is a good fit... (or Bert and Bort if we wanna get original tongue)
Bend-err

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #671 on: 12-15-2011 14:59 »

Neither Bart's sons, nor the name of Maggie's daughter was given. I guess there was just no need for it.
Beamer

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« Reply #672 on: 12-17-2011 08:03 »

What's this? A new Simpsons episode which is good?...

I'd personally say "The Book Job" was the best episode they've done in years. Slick, consistently funny and really, really enjoyable. The new future episode was good too (though not great), though they'll never make one as good as Lisa's Wedding.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #673 on: 12-17-2011 11:10 »

Yeah, just saw The Book Job. Neil Gaiman's role was hilarious to somebody who's familiar with his work.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #674 on: 12-18-2011 23:43 »
« Last Edit on: 12-18-2011 23:48 »

Upcoming episode: "Lisa goes Gaga.  Lady Gaga guest stars."  

Yeah...  no.  Do Not Want.  Also, I would say the Lisa doing Tick Tock was probably my most hated opening ever.  If they were going to do a long shameless assslurpkiss to a current singer, could they have picked one that wasn't... terrible?
Otis P Jivefunk

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« Reply #675 on: 12-19-2011 00:37 »

I'm not looking forward to that one either. If ever an episode with a guest star sounded unappealing it's that one, even from just the title, ugh...
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #676 on: 12-19-2011 07:35 »

I hate that the Simpsons is trying so very hard to be relevant by making pointless reference to almost every modern trend and phenomenon. It stinks of an effort to ape Family Guy's pop culture parodies, but the Griffens really do it better. Simpsons should just stick to effective storytelling, if they can remember how to do that.
Beanoz4

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #677 on: 12-19-2011 08:53 »
« Last Edit on: 12-19-2011 19:39 »

The Simpsons are shitting celebs out their ass.
In the olden days we had at least 2 celebs a season being themselves while the others were playing a new charictars (like Lisa Kudrow appearing as Alex)

 I'm pissed off at this because I'm wanting to see a proper story not Michelle Obama emailing Lisa because that episode was so boring and kinda cheesy!
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #678 on: 12-19-2011 09:16 »

-out their ass.
Beanoz4

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #679 on: 12-19-2011 19:40 »

Alright I'm sorry
A: I wrote it in the morning and I was tired
and
B: I was in a rush.
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