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Author Topic: The Old Man and the Simpsons Thread  (Read 18265 times)
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SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #600 on: 10-08-2011 15:32 »

Seth MacFarlane has said he doesn't want 'Family Guy' to run too long - i

TOO LATE
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #601 on: 10-08-2011 15:34 »

HOT PLATE...
YaBender!

Bending Unit
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« Reply #602 on: 10-08-2011 16:14 »

The story did scare me too. I thought 23 seasons was enough, I wanted it to end on a high note besides another movie because you can't but a movie on a season set. But I liked the order of double doh seasons but I think it should REALLY stop there. P.S. I don't think FG is gonna stay on much longer, but if The Simpsons stayed on for 23+ seasons anything's possible, but FG isn't really that funny to stay on that long.
Tachyon

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #603 on: 10-08-2011 19:39 »

Seth MacFarlane has said he doesn't want 'Family Guy' to run too long - i

TOO LATE

If people are watching it and it's making cash for the network and the creator and the voice actors and the animators, and whoever else?  More power to them.

Perhaps I would feel differently if I had watched the show from the beginning and fell in love with it or something.

Gopher

Fallback Guy
Space Pope
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« Reply #604 on: 10-08-2011 19:41 »

Don't have a cow, guys.

Also, kowabunga, and eat my shorts.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #605 on: 10-08-2011 19:47 »

I didn't do it!...
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
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« Reply #606 on: 10-10-2011 12:05 »


   Don't have a cow, guys.

   Also, kowabunga, and eat my shorts.


You haven't said that in four years. Let Lisa have it.

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #607 on: 10-10-2011 14:17 »

Seth MacFarlane has said he doesn't want 'Family Guy' to run too long - i

TOO LATE

If people are watching it and it's making cash for the network and the creator and the voice actors and the animators, and whoever else?  More power to them.

Perhaps I would feel differently if I had watched the show from the beginning and fell in love with it or something.



So is the Simpsons...
I watched Family Guy from the beginning and I have to admit, I really dislike seeing its downward slide into garbageland.   
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #608 on: 10-10-2011 17:16 »

I don't watch Family Guy consistently enough to be bothered by its apparent and inevitable decline. It's just mindless entertainment for me, and though I suppose I once had a quasi-emotional attachment to the characters (mostly just Brian and Lois, who seemed the most nuanced and fleshed-out to me in the earlier episodes), it doesn't rile me up, seeing it start to suck. I think complacent casual viewers like me are what help keep shows like Family Guy and the Simpsons alive, though.
Spacedal11

Space Pope
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« Reply #609 on: 10-11-2011 05:28 »

I'm somewhere in between Gork. I am not a major fan of Family Guy but I do get really invested in the characters and I'm so sad to see the decline. I feel the same about the Simpsons but I do genuinely like the show better than FG.
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #610 on: 10-11-2011 06:15 »

I'm more upset about the decline in quality in 'Family Guy' than I am of 'The Simpsons' and I think that's because:

1. 'The Simpsons' has been shit for over 10 years. I've come to terms with it. It's already peaked in terms of shitness, and it's actually getting slightly better. It's still very bad, but less very bad than it once was. There are now more bad episodes than good. All the damage that can be done, has been been done.

2. 'Family Guy' still produces a good episode once in a while and even though it's mostly crap now, it's not to the point where it can't even make me laugh any more (like 'The Simpsons'). A bad 'Family Guy' episode will still generally contain a handful of gags I like, so I still enjoy them a bit even if they're not great.
I suppose what I'm saying is, I still see a glimmer of potential left in 'Family Guy' and 'Family Guy' is still on that downward slope towards being plain awful. It's not finished getting REALLY bad, yet and that's why it upsets me more.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #611 on: 10-11-2011 16:45 »
« Last Edit on: 10-11-2011 16:46 »

Got The Simpsons Season 14 yesterday in the standard non-head edition. Very nice packaging, the inside artwork is fantastic. I was about to go apeshit when I saw it because at first I thought the eye stuck out, but then I picked it up and realised it's just a clool effect and totally flat!...


Only watched the Treehouse Of Horror so far, and Matt Groening's intro. Also the booklet in the DVD has an invitation from Kang & Kudo's written in blood which is quite amusing...
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #612 on: 10-11-2011 18:43 »

Shame the episodes are shit.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #613 on: 10-14-2011 21:51 »

This is what Al Jean thinks...

Quote
When asked how long he expects The Simpsons to continue for, given that it has just been renewed up to season 25, Jean predicted that it would potentially reach 30 seasons before the show ends.

Source: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ustv/news/a344651/the-simpsons-producer-al-jean-renewal-is-a-new-beginning.html

No words, just... no no
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #614 on: 11-14-2011 22:57 »

There's only 2 episodes of the classic run I dislike and those are 'Another Simpsons Clip Show' and 'Dancin' Homer'.

Just what I was about to say!  I hated Dancing Homer.  Oh well... three actually.  The third is that stupid baseball one.  At least I can appreciate the concepts and ideas behinds Homer's Enemy despite their horrible execution.  The other two are a bit like having teeth pulled out and being sewn on to your eyelids.

As cyber_turnip mentioned, it's Dancin' Homer, god! mad The ep isn't great, especially considering its neighbours, but what can ya do? A lot better than most modern eps. Homer's Enemy is one of the best eps out of the entire show! Horrible execution? C'mon, it's great humour! There's a ton of way worse eps when it comes to execution. Classic stuff we're talking about here, with the Season 8 flavour! What's not to love? smile...
Beanoz4

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #615 on: 11-14-2011 23:02 »

I love Homer's Enemy as well. It's one of the best in season 8.
Shame most people don't like it
Spacedal11

Space Pope
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« Reply #616 on: 11-14-2011 23:20 »

I like Homer's Enemy for the horribly dark humor in it. I mean I really didn't have much sympathy for Grimes in the first place, and it's a weird meta-insight at the show itself. Family Guy could benefit from this kind of episode.

I watched "The Food Wife" last night, first off I am so sick of these crappy ass titles they have. I mean how many times have they parodied Dial M for Murder already and Bart Gets a _? Anyway it was a better episode than any of the newer ones lately, I very sadly connected with Marge on this one even though I find her to be really annoying sometimes. I hated the song that came in the middle of it and it reminded me of Futurama this season and the constant use of montages. At least with Futurama it's just music, where as The Simpsons have to use songs that already exist and change the lyrics to something stupider. Anyway, it wasn't too bad of an episode. I'm glad Maggie finally showed up, because I was seriously getting mad "Where the hell is Maggie?!" I said at one point, but they fixed it.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #617 on: 11-14-2011 23:25 »

It's dark, but it's fun, and yeah Family Guy probably could do well to do something similar, but I doubt it could ever top Homer's Enemy to be honest...

I love Homer's Enemy as well. It's one of the best in season 8.
Shame most people don't like it

It's news to me that most people don't like it. Honestly, if that's true then I'm quite shocked! Next you'll be telling me the sky continually plots on a daily basis to crush everyone beneath it as they go about their daily business...

I watched The Great Louse Detective recently on my Season 14 DVD set and it reminded me of how great Homer's Enemy was, what with the revenge plot from Frank Grimes Jr, the mechanic...
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #618 on: 11-15-2011 01:49 »

It's not that most people don't like it at all. In fact, in my experience, it's often regarded as one of the all-time greats. It's the third highest rated episode on IMDb, for instance.

It certainly feels as if the show's writers, old and new, think very highly of it, too.

There's only 2 episodes of the classic run I dislike and those are 'Another Simpsons Clip Show' and 'Dancin' Homer'.

Just what I was about to say!  I hated Dancing Homer.  Oh well... three actually.  The third is that stupid baseball one.

Saywhat? 'Homer at the Bat' is one of the show's very best episodes! What did you dislike about it? Mr. Burns' "I told you to trim those sideburns!" is one of the best jokes in the show's history.
homerjaysimpson

Space Pope
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« Reply #619 on: 11-15-2011 16:20 »

The 14th season of The simpsons was out and I didn't get it. What the hell? :P
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #620 on: 11-15-2011 20:35 »

Not for you it's not. It came out in the UK last month, but you being in America don't get it until December tongue...
Beanoz4

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #621 on: 11-15-2011 21:22 »

weird how things work out..
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #622 on: 11-16-2011 13:52 »

I'm still contemplating asking for season fourteen for Christmas. I don't have any desire to buy it myself (I was fine buying season thirteen, and I'll be fine buying season fifteen--but season fourteen is more craptacular than most), nor do I think I'll really watch it much. But I'm a completist, damn it!

As far as "Homer's Enemy" goes: I think it's a severely overrated episode, both by fans and the staff, and I have no idea why it's so popular. I mean, yes, I get that it's supposed to be this super-duper meta, mind-screw of an episode (Frank Grimes is a real person! Here's how a real person would react to someone as awful as Homer!)--but that angle doesn't really work for me. It's sort of just your typical classic-era episode to me: Really funny and well-done, but not so special that I'd be ready to add it to my top-50 list. Hell, it's not even my favorite episode of season eight (that may very well be "The Secret War of Lisa Simpson").
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #623 on: 11-16-2011 20:10 »

I've been quite surprised by the quality of Season 14 as I've gradually worked my way through the DVD set. On the whole it stands up rather well and is better than I remembered. Definitely glad I picked it up, it's quite enjoyable. Also, the menus are awesome and the inside packaging artwork is some of the best yet!...
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #624 on: 11-17-2011 13:59 »

I had this really odd experience when I watched through season eleven several years ago, where I realized that I didn't hate it. Like, it's pretty shitty, but it's nowhere near as shitty as other people claim it is. However, when I rewatched season thirteen--which I had always thought of us as higher up on the, like, Ladder of Quality than season eleven--I was disappointed by how blah it was.

Seeing as how I've never thought much of season fourteen, it's possible that I might have an experience similar to the one I had with season eleven and really enjoy it. But right now the only episodes I can remember not hating are "Bart vs. Lisa vs. Third Grade," and "The Dad Who Knew Too Little" and "Three Gays of the Condo." Everything else was either boring or simply horrendous, as I recall. But I would love to be proved wrong.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #625 on: 11-17-2011 16:00 »
« Last Edit on: 11-17-2011 16:03 »

I'm kind of surprised, kind of not surprised by Homer's Enemy having its fans.  While I just think the episode is just black comedy minus the comedy, I can appreciate what they were trying to do.  I still stand by my original sentiment: great idea, horrible execution.  Frank Grimes is actually a pretty nice, decent human being, and Homer is worse then Peter Griffin in this episode, so I can find no pleasure in watching the latter destroy the former.   A lot of people say Frank was a jerk, but... well if I had to spend a lot of money preparing myself an expensive lunch (because I couldn't eat anything else due to a health condition) and some fat idiot helped himself to it as well as his own lunch, I would be pretty upset too (even though Frank is still pretty polite about the whole thing even though you know, he has to go hungry now.  I know I'm a massive diva when I'm hungry, and that's without someone stealing my food.  As a student, you should see the wars people have had over a few spoonfuls going missing from a fifty pence jar of pesto that looked rancid when it was new.)  Even when Grimes is finally giving Homer a well deserved The Reason You Suck Speech, he still manages a polite goodbye to Marge and the kids: "It was lovely meeting you" that actually felt sincere.   So it's not even like he uses his horrible past as a reason to treat people like crap, he's still a pretty nice guy when Homer isn't oblviously tormenting him (though Homer is so ridiculously OOC at that point, I don't see how he can be oblivious.  He had never been that ridiculously inconsiderate before.  In previous episodes he actually felt terrible about less and tried to make amends.  Here it's not because he feels bad about being such a complete douche to Grimes, it's because his ego can't take the idea of someone not liking him, rather then genuinely wanting to make amends with someone he's wronged.)  

I think the episode would have worked if Homer had been a genuinely nice guy, and Grimes had actually been a jerk.  You can't accuse him of being self righteous, since he doesn't hate Homer for simply having a better life then him (which would be a good example of someone projecting their own misfortune on someone else).  At this point Homer has been a lazy parasite who has got everything for nothing and has destroyed many of Grimes's meagre possessions (which the latter has slaved away to buy).   It just felt like Classic Heart of Gold Homer got swapped in by seasonal Rot Homer, or dare I say it, Peter Griffin himself.

I like the Dad who Knew too Little.  It's not as strong as other Homer/Lisa episodes like Lisa's Pony or Lisa the Beauty Queen or Lost our Lisa, but it's a good example of one of the points i was trying to make.  Even in this later episode, Homer was a ridiculous putz (displaying even less knowledge of Lisa then he usually does) as usual, but he genuinely felt terrible about letting her down (twice), and wanted to make her happy, rather then simply wanting to be Superdad to boost his own ego.   No matter how crummy the characters get in later seasons, I think Homer/Lisa will always be the most touching and sweet relationship in the series in my eyes.   It's one of the few segments of the show that still has genuine heart, and no matter how different they are, Lisa is always going to a Daddy's Girl, and in a way that isn't cloying or forced.  

Three gays of the condo was an allright episode, even though it felt like most of the jokes that weren't funny enough to be in Homer's Phobia just trickled down here.

 
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #626 on: 11-17-2011 16:50 »

Lost our Lisa

That may be one of my top-ten favorite episodes, no lie. It's just really well-done.

As far as "Homer's Enemy" goes: I haven't seen the episode in some time, so I can't really comment on how out-of-character Homer is. My main beef with the whole thing is that it's not particularly funny, and the dark humor doesn't really work for me--though maybe my distaste is a result of what you're talking about, SpaceGoldfish: Homer is an asshole, and Frank is a genuinely decent person. I think the writers were so intent on being meta and sly and what have you, so they unleashed a "real" person into the fucked-up world of Homer Simpson and followed that to its bleak and logical outcome--death by electrocution. Wait, what?

It's just such an over-the-top, insane ending that it makes me hate Homer a little, and hate the writers for showing their characters so little respect. I don't care if they wanted to pursue some oh-so-creative or postmodern or whatever thought-experiment with this episode, but they didn't have to turn Homer into a parody of himself in order to accomplish such a thing--at least not in a canon episode. If they had said right off the bat that this was a THOH-style, non-canon affair, then maybe I wouldn't have a problem with how the episode plays out. But how can I accept such fuckery as something that "really happened" in the fictional universe of this show, and still give a crap about Homer in next week's episode?

I'd never thought about how ridiculous it all is, but you're totally right, SpaceGoldfish. My blood is so angried up right now, just thinking about it.
JoshTheater

Space Pope
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« Reply #627 on: 11-17-2011 18:44 »
« Last Edit on: 11-17-2011 19:54 »

It's just such an over-the-top, insane ending that it makes me hate Homer a little, and hate the writers for showing their characters so little respect. I don't care if they wanted to pursue some oh-so-creative or postmodern or whatever thought-experiment with this episode, but they didn't have to turn Homer into a parody of himself in order to accomplish such a thing--at least not in a canon episode. If they had said right off the bat that this was a THOH-style, non-canon affair, then maybe I wouldn't have a problem with how the episode plays out. But how can I accept such fuckery as something that "really happened" in the fictional universe of this show, and still give a crap about Homer in next week's episode?

Very interesting opinions on this particular episode that I haven't heard before from quite a few people. Unfortunately I completely disagree. I love everything about Homer's Enemy, especially it's dark humor and the way it exploits Homer's character for such a ridiculous situation. I like how surreal the episode is, how out of place in their universe Frank Grimes is, and what inevitably happens to him. I find the episode consistently funny.

I guess my question to you, Gorky, would be when are you ever really supposed to fully sympathize with Homer as a character? He's always been put across as a less-than-good person, there to provide comedy and fuck with the rest of his family's lives. The only reason he's sometimes sympathetic is because he's always well-meaning but too stupid to realize the idiotic and horrible things he's doing. In real life he would be a high-functioning severe autistic. Those character traits are what provides nearly 90% of the comedy in the entire show. I don't see any change to that character in the episode Homer's Enemy...I just see the writers using as much of those traits as possible to the episode's ends. Even though Homer is an enormous asshole in Homer's Enemy, he doesn't ever realize he's being an asshole and is always ignorantly well-meaning, which is consistent with his character in the rest of the show. I don't feel like they ever make him into a parody of himself. It just seems like he's being more of an asshole than he usually is in that episode because now there's a character who responds to his behavior realistically, refuses to tolerate it and is driven mad by it...which is a hilariously clever concept. It doesn't make Homer out to be more than an asshole than he ever has been...it makes it clear how much of an asshole he always has been.

The difference between us, Gorky, I guess, is that that didn't ruin his character for me. It's a cartoon universe that I'm watching, so what if I'm aware that he's a giant asshole? Since when hasn't that been the case? Sure, the episode plays up his bad traits, but it doesn't do anything to downplay his good traits. If it had done that, I would have been upset as well, but it doesn't. Homer is shown throughout the episode to be ignorantly well-meaning. So I can still sympathize with him during genuinely touching moments involving his character where it shows how much he loves and cares for his family or whatever, because I know that part of his character has always been there as well.

There's the other aspect of Homer's Enemy that really speaks to me and that's the persecution Homer feels from Grimes, where Homer has no idea what he's doing wrong and can't understand why Grimes hates him, and eventually starts to decide that he must be the horrible person Grimes is saying he is. I feel like that's an excellent reflection of the way many of us feel when people treat us that way. We begin to wonder if perhaps the things other people have to say about ourselves maybe hold more water than we think, and begin to reevaluate the sort of person we are. It's then that we turn to the people we love most to provide us moral support, to remind us of our good traits, which is shown wonderfully when Marge has to comfort Homer by telling him how much his family loves him and how much he's done for them, while even herself admitting that perhaps he's a less-than-perfect human who could work on bettering himself. And he DOES try to better himself...he just fails at it because he's too stupid to really understand. Which, really, is how life works a lot of the time. We try desperately to better ourselves as people, but when it gets too confusing for us we eventually fall back on what we know to be true for comfort. I feel like the episode portays that brilliantly.

Even if I didn't find the episode that funny and thought it was more depressing and dark, I think I would still cherish it. I love when shows give you a different sort of look at the characters and force you to analyze them a bit more deeply, and I like when shows make you a bit uncomfortable while doing so. It's a nice change of pace and I feel like I came out the other side of watching Homer's Enemy the first time appreciating the show and its writers more for it.

Edit: Ouch, that was a longer post than I thought...
Beanoz4

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #628 on: 11-17-2011 20:21 »

Ouch that's a post I can't be arsed to read!
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #629 on: 11-17-2011 22:44 »

I read it, but I don't know if I have much of a rebuttal. Like I said, I haven't seen the episode in a long time. I agree with you that Homer has always been an asshole, Josh, so I'll grant that maybe the writers aren't taking such extreme liberties with his character. Maybe my problem with "Homer's Enemy" is less about characterization and more about tone. Because, tonally, the episode is so dark--and I can't help thinking that, if this was any other sitcom, I would never forgive the protagonist for the part he played, however indirectly, in another person's senseless death. I get that it's supposed to be dark humor, and in that respect I suppose the writers accomplished what they set out to do. But regardless of Homer's motives--and how we're supposed to alternately be amused by, frustrated with, and sympathetic to him--the end result of this episode is that a guy dies and Homer is just such a lovable dolt that we're supposed to react favorably when he falls asleep at this same man's funeral. (And maybe the point of the episode is that all of Springfield is rewarding Homer's ridiculous behavior by finding him so lovable, and they vilify the Only Sane Man because they're just as dysfunctional as Homer is. But still, I find it cringe-worthy.)

I think I'm just overthinking the whole thing, honestly; I'm only nitpicking because I have nothing better to do. "Homer's Enemy" isn't a bad episode--my initial point was just that it's a really overrated one. It just doesn't work for me, plain and simple.
JoshTheater

Space Pope
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« Reply #630 on: 11-18-2011 17:47 »
« Last Edit on: 11-18-2011 17:53 »

And maybe the point of the episode is that all of Springfield is rewarding Homer's ridiculous behavior by finding him so lovable, and they vilify the Only Sane Man because they're just as dysfunctional as Homer is.

That's exactly the way I see it. I don't think it's ever been hidden that all of Springfield is supposed to be completely nuts. The point of the episode was introducing the "One Sane Man" (as you put it) into the Simpsons universe, and the only way that could logically end is in his death. laff

I guess I'm just a fan of that ridiculously inappropriate dark tone, especially when used in such a normally lighthearted and comedic setting. Some find it unsettling, I find it stimulating.

That said, it definitely only works as a one-time deal. They could never and should never (and hopefully haven't already, I wouldn't know) try that concept again. To me that episode is like a brief trip to the Twilight Zone, and after it's over everyone tries to pretend it never happened.
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #631 on: 11-18-2011 21:34 »

Who is the real Principal Skinner?
cyber_turnip

Urban Legend
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« Reply #632 on: 11-21-2011 13:59 »

What's going on? This week's episode would be the best episode in years if it wasn't for last week's episode being slightly better. Apparently Matt Selman has served as show-runner for these two, it seems like he's off to a good start.

I mean, these past two episodes weren't bad, they were just average-y. And by modern Simpsons standards, that's really, really good.
Spacedal11

Space Pope
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« Reply #633 on: 11-23-2011 09:18 »

I actually loved this episode. It was ridiculously spot on with Lisa as the wannabe writer, at least for me, I procrastinate like she did in so many ways! Neil Gaiman was hilarious, the entire episode was actually really good. My beef: Ned Flanders and his sons waited in line for Angelica Button books? I don't think so!
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #634 on: 11-23-2011 12:23 »

And maybe the point of the episode is that all of Springfield is rewarding Homer's ridiculous behavior by finding him so lovable, and they vilify the Only Sane Man because they're just as dysfunctional as Homer is.

That's exactly the way I see it. I don't think it's ever been hidden that all of Springfield is supposed to be completely nuts. The point of the episode was introducing the "One Sane Man" (as you put it) into the Simpsons universe, and the only way that could logically end is in his death. laff

I guess I'm just a fan of that ridiculously inappropriate dark tone, especially when used in such a normally lighthearted and comedic setting. Some find it unsettling, I find it stimulating.

That said, it definitely only works as a one-time deal. They could never and should never (and hopefully haven't already, I wouldn't know) try that concept again. To me that episode is like a brief trip to the Twilight Zone, and after it's over everyone tries to pretend it never happened.

But the thing is we do have plenty of only sane men in Springfield, like Lisa for example.  
Lisa is pretty well adjusted considering she's ridiculed, alienated and ignored for her intelligence and general decency

I have to disagree with you for the most part Josh, Homer at that point in the series was still the well meaning idiot.  Look at "Maggie makes Three" for example.   Homer's not like Homer in this episode.  He's actually worse then he was in recent "Jerkass Homer" episodes.  Hell, he's actually on par with Peter Griffin here.  I'm just saying if Grimes genuinely was a self rightous, bitter jerkass and not a decent guy whose still just about holding it together despite his crummy little life, and Homer was his normal self, and not Peter Griffin, then the episode would have worked so much better.   The thing is Josh, you actually end up identifying with Homer all the time in classic simpsons.  In Maggie Makes Three, he gives up his dream job and becomes a wage slave for a sadistic monster, because he wants to provide for his new baby daughter.   A lot of parents can identify with that.  In "Lisa's Subsitute", Homer is a complete jerkass to his daughter and makes her cry, and then acts like the injured party.  After Marge chews him out for it, he realises how much he upset Lisa, and then successfully cheers her up.    Then he cheers up Bart, and gets Maggie to go back to sleep.  He then tells Marge that he's on the biggest roll of his life.  It's certainly something any parent can understand, how just that tiny act of connecting with your children can be so rare and joyful.   I know that since I've started typing this out, I certainly should try and connect with my mother more (less arguments that result in one of us slamming the phone down, haha.)

I guess if we want to talk about it more, we should PM eachother in case someone gets pissed off.  I guess I hate this episode so much, I could write essays on how it could have been so much better.  I just found it excessively humourless  and sadistic.   Homer doesn't have any good traits in this episode.  He's actually a caricature of himself... like Peter Griffin! He destroys Grimes's meagre possessions, yet Grimes stills saves his life... and gets blamed by Homer for the whole thing, resulting in Grimes losing a large chunk of his salary.  Then Homer falls asleep and snores through Grimes's funeral, and turns it into a laughing stock.  


Oh mannnnn.  Seriously this episode has been like a big bone in my throat for years.  The episode was just too dark for me, and this is coming from someone who goes on Sickipedia the minute a celebrity dies.  

Angelica Button?  Hasn't Lisa already written something about that character before?  The name feels familiar.  I know it wasn't in the Equalia episode, but something more recent.  Hmmm.  
JoshTheater

Space Pope
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« Reply #635 on: 11-24-2011 00:51 »
« Last Edit on: 11-24-2011 00:57 »

I don't see any possibility of anybody getting pissed off about the discussion. We all have different opinions and I'm pretty certain we all accept that.

I said it before, but in response to the "Homer is a caricature of himself" argument, I just don't see it. I feel like he's about the same character he is in other episodes: the well-meaning idiot. Nothing Homer does in Homer's Enemy is intentionally cruel or heartless. Everything bad he does comes from stupidity and ignorance alone. I would agree that his stupidity and inconsiderate nature in this episode is more over-the-top than in a lot of others, but I don't think it was moreso than we'd ever seen before in the series...he'd absolutely reached that level before several times in many episodes. As I pointed out before, the only real difference in Homer's Enemy is that his ignorance affects others (specifically Frank Grimes) in a much more realistic and negative way. And Frank Grimes, as you said, doesn't necessarily deserve it. He's a hard worker who's endured hardships in his life and is understandably overwhelmed by Homer's stupidity. If I was Frank Grimes, I would have reacted the exact same way he did.

Yes, because of that, what happens is incredibly dark. And as I've said, that's what I love about it. I love how ridiculously dark it is, I find it completely hilarious. I love that this good person who deserves so much more than Homer goes completely insane and then dies. I love how everyone makes it out like it's not a big deal at the end of the episode, and everybody still loves Homer. I love how fucked up it is, how much it makes you want to hate Homer and the rest of Springfield. For me, those are GOOD things about the episode...I think it's what makes it stand out. As I said, I find how uncomfortable and confused it makes you when you first see it stimulating. I think it's smart and clever how the writers managed to achieve that with the episode.

Some of you find it too dark, and I can't get behind that, but oh well, that's the way it is. In the end, all we can do is agree to disagree. smile
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
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« Reply #636 on: 11-24-2011 02:31 »

Well I don't really want anyone getting pissed off at me for not letting the discussion die.  :P

I guess you love the episode for the reasons I hate it I suppose.  Grimes is such a nice guy that I just can't really find any humour in watching Homer's exaggerated selfishness and inconsiderateness destroy what little the poor bastard had left in life.  When I want dark, I'll stick to jokes about missing photogenic white women thankyou very much! >:3

Spacedal11

Space Pope
****
« Reply #637 on: 11-24-2011 20:44 »
« Last Edit on: 11-24-2011 20:47 »

Angelica Button is the Harry Potter equivalent in The Simpsons universe. And I just find it hard to believe Ned would let his kids read those books being the uber-Christian that he is.

EDIT: Also I'm with Josh when it come to Homer's enemy. If Homer's behavior in that episode was on purpose it would be completely different but it's just Homer being the oblivious oaf that he is and I think it's a horribly dark episode but still really funny.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #638 on: 11-25-2011 00:16 »

I think it's a little tragic because Homer actually tries, in his own way, to befriend the man, and is devastated when he finds out that he is disliked by him.
I think Grimes was actually kind of a douche. I mean, sure - Homer was annoying and dangerously idiotic, but he meant well, and Grimes still went and made it personal. There'd been no malice from Homer and therefore no need for the level of venomous contempt Grimes demonstrated.
The moral is - pull the rod out of your arse.
SpaceGoldfish fromWazn

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #639 on: 11-26-2011 03:08 »
« Last Edit on: 11-26-2011 03:31 »

I think it's a little tragic because Homer actually tries, in his own way, to befriend the man, and is devastated when he finds out that he is disliked by him.
I think Grimes was actually kind of a douche. I mean, sure - Homer was annoying and dangerously idiotic, but he meant well, and Grimes still went and made it personal. There'd been no malice from Homer and therefore no need for the level of venomous contempt Grimes demonstrated.
The moral is - pull the rod out of your arse.

How is he a douche?

If someone destroyed your meager possessions, snitched on you and got you a paycut when you actually saved their annoying life, wouldn't you hate them too?  Grimes only really began to hate Homer after the latter was so ridiculously selfish and inconsiderate after a long period of time.  He actually gave Peter Griffin a run for his money on the asshole stakes on this episode.  If Homer meant well, he would have offered to buy Grimes a replacement lunch.  That's my problem with this episode, normally Homer does mean well, and actually tries to make amends because he knows he's done wrong, not because his ego can't take someone disliking him.  The acid thing was just the straw that broke the camel's back.   Grimes doesn't use his tragic past as an excuse to dump on everyone, just to be outraged at Homer.  I mean if someone had destroyed my few belongings, got my salary slashed in return for saving their life, and then I saw their beautiful life which they did no work for whatsoever, I would be extremely angry.

And what shows Grimes as a decent human being = when he's finished chewing out Homer, he politely says to Marge and the kids: "It was lovely meeting you".  Then he lets himself out.  Homer doesn't mean well in this episode, he just does whatever the hell he wants in a Peter Griffin-esque manner, and is ridiculously selfish and inconsiderate.  I would say this version of Homer is one of the many things wrong with modern day Simpsons, rather then a hopeless buffoon with a decent heart.  There is nothing kind or well meaning about Homer in this episode.  If Grimes really was a douche, he would have just let Homer drink the acid.  Instead he looks absolutely horrified, and races over to smack the acid straight of Homer's hand.  

I guess this is a controversial episode, but I would say its one of the only three from the show's best years I just cannot watch (along with the baseball one and dancing homer, but the latter two because they are just so boring.)   I would say its one of the episodes where Homer treats someone else so awfully, its rather painful to watch.  Remember the episode where he stresses his eight year old daughter so much, that she gets stomach ulcers?

Still I guess the fact that the episode is so divisive does mean something done right on behalf of the writers.  Some people like Josh love it for the sadism, while others like me and Gorky think its too sadistic and Homer becomes more like Peter Griffin at his very worst.    He just feels like the Designated Protaganist in this episode, and we are supposed to think Grimes is a douche when he has every reason to hate Homer.  If we swapped the roles around, and Grimes got Homer's pay reduced, we would certainly hate him, whether it was accidental or done out of spite.
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