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Author Topic: Shipping high into the sun.  (Read 39184 times)
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Ralph Snart

Agent Provocateur
Near Death Star Inhabitant
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #80 on: 05-15-2009 22:07 »

@ CaB:

But did you see the pic under Mrs. Bundy? cool

So obviously others agree with me.

Could you imagine being married to Peg?  There's a reason Al looks as bad as he does.
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
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« Reply #81 on: 05-15-2009 23:09 »

Actually I could imagine, and I did, quite a lot. I could never understand Al's reluctance to go to bed with her, I'd be in there like a shot  laff
Archonix

Space Pope
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« Reply #82 on: 05-16-2009 00:11 »

I suspect three kids will make even the horniest man a little bit reluctant. Who knows if another one might come along?
WAVer

Bending Unit
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« Reply #83 on: 05-23-2009 07:31 »
« Last Edit on: 05-23-2009 07:37 »

Really, it's all how you view the characters as, from a logical point of view, and an emotional point of view. Emotionally, I view Fry as one of the greatest inspirational characters I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Someone who truly never gave up. Certainly someone who, to me, went far deeper than physical attraction. Whether that was intended by the writers or simply my PoV, it doesnt matter to me, and I'm ok with that. smile Logically, he did have plenty of character flaws that would of deemed him a loser, and I agree with that too, but he never threw himself into a suicide booth even when he was emotionally crushed at his worst, either.

Emotionally, Leela did have a heart of gold, but I felt could never see Fry for who he really was. Perhaps it was because it was how she thought that was how the world worked? IDK.. I think I'm a bigger Fry fan than I am a Leela fan, but I still have alot of admiration for Leela regardless. I know the writers could of done so much better than they initially did with the first two DVD movies, but regardless, what's done is done.

On a side note, yes, the reset button got really old, really fast. It was bad enough they kept doing it during the final season, but in the movies too? And destroying canon too. Oh, by the way, we're going to take back what we did in Jarassic Bark and pretend that didnt happen
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #84 on: 05-23-2009 18:09 »

Emotionally, I view Fry as one of the greatest inspirational characters I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Someone who truly never gave up.

Oh, by the way, we're going to take back what we did in Jarassic Bark and pretend that didnt happen


So no pretending Beast didn't happen? I just mean that for all the retcon's that BBS did at least the characters acted like a version of themselves, even if one-note. While I don't like the changes to the canon at least there is an explanation for them (even if I believe it to be a weak one) and well... I mean his family was happy, right?

This is direct contrast to Beast which offers no explanation for the sudden character changes. I can't even take it like Gorky can by pretending it's a S2 episode. Even S2 Fry wouldn't have thrown himself into an alt. universe because he got dumped by some girl he barely knew. Hell, S2 Fry would have shugged it off.

It barely even matches Futurama's humor. Like maybe 10 minutes of that whole thing feels like a Futurama episode.

Futurama started off as a series about a 20th century loser being given a second chance at life in the 30th century. While it did eventually skew away from that a bit (similar to The Simpsons eventually not always bringing it's take on the American Family) there was always the characters to remind you of that simple premise. Beast is something I can't accept into the canon because the series main character isn't in it. Sure, there is a guy who looks and sounds like Fry but he definitely doesn't act like the Delivery Boy we all love. It isn't Futurama to me without Fry.

Oh, and Leela was screwed up too.

Wow! That was quite a lot to write off an incidental.
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
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« Reply #85 on: 05-23-2009 19:30 »
« Last Edit on: 05-23-2009 19:38 »

I mean his family was happy, right?

I know there are people who didn't like the retconning of Luck of the Fryrish but it always bugged me that Fry simply disappears without warning - how must have that felt to his family? When you see documentaries on TV about people who've had their children disappear without trace - thats one of the hardest thing of all for families to cope with. If someone dies, at least they have closure. They can mourn. They can get on with their lives but if someone disappears you simply don't know - are they alive somewhere? Are they going to walk back through that door someday? Thats the hardest thing of all to cope with, a lack of knowing. I have a feeling thats why they rewrote canon on that story - until Lars disappears again of course....


Quote
Beast is something I can't accept into the canon because the series main character isn't in it. Sure, there is a guy who looks and sounds like Fry but he definitely doesn't act like the Delivery Boy we all love. It isn't Futurama to me without Fry.

Oh, and Leela was screwed up too.

Agreed, very screwed up.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
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« Reply #86 on: 05-24-2009 11:34 »

BWABB still bugs me a bit, it just seems so out of place. Didn't DXC even admit that Fry was out of character by admitting it was a "cheat" but they "needed it for the story"? I wouldn't have minded if it was in aid of a good story but sadly it wasn't and I found myself almost willing it to end with 20 minutes to go.

That said did they even need Colleen at all? Her only purpose seemed to be 'make Fry depressed so he goes into the other universe and discovers Yivo', couldn't Leela have just done that? Or someone else discover Yivo? Or forget Yivo altogether, throw the story in the bin and do something worthwhile instead? I hated Yivo as a character afterall.

I had high hopes for it after really enjoying BBS but sadly it just sucked by Futurama standards. None of it sat right. Thankfully BG was a return to form with ITWGY being arguably some of  the finest Futurama produced, at least in my eyes.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #87 on: 05-24-2009 14:43 »
« Last Edit on: 05-24-2009 14:44 »

That said did they even need Colleen at all? Her only purpose seemed to be 'make Fry depressed so he goes into the other universe and discovers Yivo', couldn't Leela have just done that?

As much as I wish TBWaBB had developed the Fry/Leela story that was established at the end of BBS, I think that, if Leela had rejected Fry's advances with such finality that it caused him to attempt suicide, it would've 1.) taken their relationship to a particularly dark, possibly irredeemable place and 2.) made their coming together in ItWGY even more out-of-the-blue, as well as further negating the point of BBS--that, deep-down, Leela does love Fry.

As it was, I found her indifference and off-handed cruelty to him in TBWaBB out-of-character, but not so much so that I lost hope for the Fry/Leela relationship. And it also would've been weird to see Fry antagonizing Leela as he did Colleen (what with loving the tentacle and all), and it would've probably made the whole Leela/Amy/Zapp-escaping-Yivo bit halfway through the movie impossible (which would've been unfortunate, because that's one of my favorite parts of TBWaBB).
Future Shock

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #88 on: 05-24-2009 14:54 »

Wow, you have all these thoughts like "it would have been so much better that way" without those movies in between. This and that could have happened, and yeah it's fun to pretend of a better way, but then you realize this is real, and that didn't happen and there is nothing you can do about it.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #89 on: 05-24-2009 14:58 »

Um...thanks for the insight?
Future Shock

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #90 on: 05-24-2009 15:31 »

To summarize it all: We'd like it if this happened but in reality it hasn't.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #91 on: 05-24-2009 15:43 »

I hate to break this to you, Future Shock, but Futurama is a science-fiction sitcom, not a documentary.
Future Shock

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #92 on: 05-24-2009 15:55 »

Uh yeah... But don't you get it?
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #93 on: 05-24-2009 16:00 »

Uh yeah... But don't you get it?

No, you don't get it.  The point is that while Futurama's makers made have "done it", and it cannot be undone, what is the issue of debating what could have been better, especially in a situation where a few people hold all the cards?  I mean, it's fiction, they can make up what they want, it is not like fighting a war, where the outcome may far different from the original strategy.
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
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« Reply #94 on: 05-24-2009 16:07 »
« Last Edit on: 05-24-2009 18:11 »

As much as I wish TBWaBB had developed the Fry/Leela story that was established at the end of BBS

The fact is they they just plain acted like it never happened and thats the problem I have with it, it made them act out of character. Massively.

As it was, I found her indifference and off-handed cruelty to him in TBWaBB out-of-character

Well I can attribute that to jealousy... just. After BBS she realises she does have feelings for him and then he takes up with Colleen and it pisses her off... Bitchy? Maybe, but it's very human nonetheless.

Fry doesn't come out of it too well either. At the end when Colleen has dumped him it's like, "Well thats over then! Who can I hook up with? Ah! I know, I'll pick up where I left off with Leela as if nothing ever happened!" Well sorry dude, but relationships just don't work that way. Leela's pissed off-edness at that point was entirely justified IMO.

But I don't like to think about BWaBB too much the writing is just too... lazy.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #95 on: 05-24-2009 18:11 »
« Last Edit on: 05-24-2009 18:12 »

@Future Shock: Dude, you're writing a story about the PEELocalypse; I take offense to your challenging my view of reality.

Topic:

Fry doesn't come off too well either. At the end when Colleen has dumped him it's like, "Who else is there I can hook up with? Ah! I know, I'll pick up where I left off with Leela as if nothing ever happened!" Well sorry dude, but relationships just don't work that way. Leela's pissed off-edness at that point was entirely justified IMO.

I really like that final scene, especially Leela's reaction to Fry's uninspired pick-up--"Oh, please. You forgot me quick enough when you met Colleen." That, to me, is the one indication that the writers meant for Leela to be jealous of the Fry/Colleen relationship. It would have been a valid story-point, but I don't think it was developed enough for me to truly view Leela as in-character for much of TBWaBB.

Really, I think she got the short-end of the characterization stick for much of the second and third movies; BBS and ItWGY got her character spot-on, IMO.
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
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« Reply #96 on: 05-24-2009 18:39 »

I really like that final scene, especially Leela's reaction to Fry's uninspired pick-up--"Oh, please. You forgot me quick enough when you met Colleen." That, to me, is the one indication that the writers meant for Leela to be jealous of the Fry/Colleen relationship. It would have been a valid story-point, but I don't think it was developed enough for me to truly view Leela as in-character for much of TBWaBB.

It's very badly/lazily written, certainly.

Quote
Really, I think she got the short-end of the characterization stick for much of the second and third movies; BBS and ItWGY got her character spot-on, IMO.

Agreed, the writing is much tighter.
km73

Space Pope
****
« Reply #97 on: 05-24-2009 19:47 »

That, to me, is the one indication that the writers meant for Leela to be jealous of the Fry/Colleen relationship. It would have been a valid story-point, but I don't think it was developed enough for me to truly view Leela as in-character for much of TBWaBB.

Ah, yeah, that reminds me of when a few of us thought, before BWABB was released, that the writers might actually use Leela-being-somewhat-jealous as a plot-point to throw a bit of a curve into the relationship dynamic or switch the focus a scintilla of a bit. We conjectured that that could turn out relatively interesting, possibly. But that was when I still kind of thought a couple of the movies at least might be decently written.  Ha ha.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #98 on: 05-24-2009 21:49 »

I really hate the final scenes (minus Bender's bits), moreso than the rest of the movie. Remember that part when everybody else has been removed from the creature (is it getting annoying that I won't use his name) and Fry is alone on it and tries to reconcile with it? WTF! Did the writers actually suggest that given the chance Fry would once again abandon his universe to spend eternity with a giant tentacle monster?

No, Futurama writers. No.

Then of course comes something even worse than that. Just before the lines Gorky loves comes my second most hated part of the movie (behind Leela aiming for Fry), this line:"Maybe he's right. Maybe I should be looking for love closer to home". Ahhhh! I don't know what anybody else thought about that line but it drove me nearly bonkers (I would have screamed obscenities if my brothers weren't watching it with me).

That line suggests that Fry really did want to spend his life with a giant tentacle monster and it's only because it rejected him that he is going to settle for another being, in this case Leela. How the hell am I not supposed to be insulted by that. I don't even think I'm ovethinking it. The idea that Leela is something Fry settled for is shipping blasphemy (especially with all that pesky plot development that the writers apparently hated getting in the way of their dumb, ****** monster movie).

Hell, what really makes me hate those scenes is that, like the rest of the movie, it was written. Let me explain: We all know the most important part of hooking a person into a story is suspension of disbelief. For a while you have to make them forget this world and live in this other world. Bad writing/acting/whatever doesn't accomplish this.

When you see a good movie like Star Wars you aren't thinking about how Mark Hamill is on a set resembling a bar talking to a guy in a costume. What you are thinking is that Luke is in Mos Eisley Cantina in a bad situation with a dangerous alien. This is because of the directing, the set and costume designs, the fantastic acting, and the great script. All those things come together to make you believe that this is real event and that those are real people.

The Star Wars prequels (yeah, I don't like them) didn't have those things. While the costumes they used were pretty good they were mostly shunned for (now) bad CGI, the sets ended up looking too clean too be believable, the directing was terrible, the acting was bad but (back to my point) it all was mostly because of the horrible script.

A bad script took me out of the entire film series. Good actors (they were all mostly good actors) can make you believe in the characters when everything else about the movie sucks. But they can't do that with a horrible script. A bad script ruins a movie more than anything else. A bad script kills the world you were meant to believe in. It no longer feels like a world so much as something some guy wrote.

(Seriously back to my point) That's what I really hate about Beast. It doesn't feel like a believable situation. The bad script comes around to make it feel like something some guy (Eric Kaplan) wrote.

Thank You, Peel, for giving me a place to rant. Screw You, BWABB, for giving me a reason to rant.

P.S. I paraphrased that writing bit from an article by David Wong on his website that is now available on Cracked (http://www.cracked.com/article_15631_10-best-sci-fi-films-never-made.html). It's the Star Wars entry. I highly recommend reading it and his other stuff. It's all much better written than anything I've ever wrote (like I needed to write that).
Frida Waterfall

Professor
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« Reply #99 on: 05-25-2009 01:33 »

Huhn... I always thought that the one line about Fry "looking for love closer to home" was to be interpreted as "be more realistic", but I think your view might make more sense. Then again, Fry was pretty desperate...
Future Shock

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #100 on: 05-25-2009 09:51 »

I'm sorry Gorky. If I don't understand what you mean you're probably right.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #101 on: 05-25-2009 17:47 »

The thing I always hated about the end of BWABB was the fact that Leela decides to accept Yivo for no reason completely out of the blue. Considering the fact that this happens mere seconds before Bender attacks there's no reason why she couldn't just keep being the itelligent resistant one. That' never made any sense to me.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
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« Reply #102 on: 05-25-2009 20:53 »

That' never made any sense to me.

At least it's in keeping with the rest of the movie, none of it makes any sense.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #103 on: 06-01-2009 07:29 »

I consider BWABB to be the best film, character-wise. Following on from BBS, everything makes sense. Yes, Fry is a bit pathetic in the beginning. Who can blame him? His best friend, who is quite aware of his past feelings for her, is completely tactless regarding his emotions. Also, he just fell though with the one woman who was helping him get over his feelings regarding said best friend. The final scene, when Leela says "You forgot me quick enough", Fry's response of "That's true" embodies so much more than simple, brief realisation. It represents the end of his ill-afforded obsession.

As such, this renders ITWGY the worst film character-wise. If the writers actually wanted the film to go through with the relationship in a realistic manner, they would have used it to follow up BBS instead. That would have been quite touching, really.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #104 on: 06-01-2009 08:53 »

Ahem: http://www.peelified.com/index.php?topic=17266.msg1021948#msg1021948
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #105 on: 06-01-2009 15:02 »

As such, this renders ITWGY the worst film character-wise. If the writers actually wanted the film to go through with the relationship in a realistic manner, they would have used it to follow up BBS instead. That would have been quite touching, really.

It seems like that was there original intention before they got into the "Why not three?" "Well then why not four?" thing.
Future Shock

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #106 on: 06-01-2009 15:28 »

They might have left out Benders Game if they'd done three. I want a
what-if machine now.
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
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« Reply #107 on: 06-02-2009 12:34 »


   when Leela says "You forgot me quick enough"


If this is actually a sore point with Leela then why did she react just as positively as the others when Fry announced that he couldn't go on the mission with them because he was moving in with Colleen?

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #108 on: 06-02-2009 16:51 »

Could have just been trying to hide her anger.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
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« Reply #109 on: 06-02-2009 18:57 »

That's one of the things that bugs me about the characterisation in BWABB, they just don't seem to be able to make up their mind on how Leela should feel about it. Sometimes she comes accross as supportive whilst a bit later she'll seem jealous.

The way a few characters behave in BWABB puzzles me, I get the feeling that there's supposed to be a subtext of sorts behind it all but I'm not entirely sure what it is.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #110 on: 06-02-2009 19:22 »

Xanfor: I don't want to get into any stuff with you but I disagree. I think all the people who turned anti-shippy after the first two movies (yourself seemingly included) have the worst-case scenario fan-fiction going on in their heads regarding the time spent between BBS and BWABB.

I know that the first two movies essentially ignored continuity and character development but that doesn't mean we should just say "Screw it!" to the entire F/L dynamic simply because the writers stupidly decided to ignore it.

Nobody really knows what happened in the time between BBS and BWABB between F/L but I don't think they came to any blows. I don't think Leela ignored Fry (told him to **** off or something) or that Fry was suicidally depressed.  All it was is the writers ignoring previous events for the sake of their monster movie.

Realistically the characters didn't act in any way that made sense for them to (as my linked list details). I know the show didn't have fantastic continuity (214 being the best example of ignoring previous episodes for the sake of story (well, more of a extended joke) but there was a sense of it. The characters and show did mature as it went on.

So, I think the writers never meant to follow up on BBS (except for the anomaly) and just used it since they figured it would be an easy lead in to BWABB.

Still, character wise it's flawed. I'm surprised at the people who dislike BBS immediately jumping onto Beast and saying it's the best. I know that BBS ignored a lot of stuff but does that mean that we should like the movie that ignored even more? Screw following up BBS, what about following up the series? That list I wrote doesn't just take into account how OOC F/L are following BBS. I actually wrote more of how it doesn't make sense following the series.

We shouldn't have been whining about how if they didn't want to follow up characters they should just give up on the idea. We should have been whining for them to follow the characters closer and keep continuity (which apparently worked since ITWGY is a fantastic follow-up to the series (not the movies).

Xan, I don't know if any of my rambling has a good message or counter-point. But I do know that BWABB is a bad follow-up to BBS and, more importantly, the series.

Curious Gorge: I don't think there is any sub-text. Leela was completely supportive at the beginning because the story demanded it. The writers didn't want any tension between the characters because that isn't what they wanted their story to be about (shown by them removing a line where Bender says something to effect of "Hey look, Fry has a new GF even though he's been chasing after this one for years").

That line at the end is just the writers thinking they probably just pissed shippers off by ignoring previous events (essentially all of them) and trying to plant this idea in our minds that she was jealous when all evidence (in terms of the story's self-contained nature) is to the contrary. That line isn't character development. It is the writers weak attempt to cover their asses for using Futurama for their incredibly long Hentai "joke".
Xanfor

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« Reply #111 on: 06-04-2009 03:24 »

If this is actually a sore point with Leela then why did she react just as positively as the others when Fry announced that he couldn't go on the mission with them because he was moving in with Colleen?

Oh, I didn't say anything about a sore point, simply that her response reminded Fry of why he had given up on her and tried to move on with Colleen in the first place. Of course Fry had given up! She'd fallen in love with (and almost married) what was essentially him, and with the exception of a kiss on the cheek had acknowledged nothing about it. Frankly, she was happy that he moving in with Colleen, and that he was getting over her. The fact that he made one reference to what he used to have for her was enough to trigger her to reveal her vehemence to the very concept.

Xanfor: I don't want to get into any stuff with you but I disagree. I think all the people who turned anti-shippy after the first two movies (yourself seemingly included) have the worst-case scenario fan-fiction going on in their heads regarding the time spent between BBS and BWABB.

I didn't turn anti-shippy, actually. I have never technically been "shippy", as it were. However, I have always been of the determination that the romantic tension between Fry and Leela should be suitably equalised at some point. Whether this came through an acknowledgement and reciprocation of each other's feeling or through one of them getting over the other made no difference to me. All I wanted was for them both to become mutually happy. In BWABB, Leela seems to want nothing to do with Fry, whether romantically or platonically. Fry finally moves on from her. They both live happily ever after.

Quote
I know that the first two movies essentially ignored continuity and character development but that doesn't mean we should just say "Screw it!" to the entire F/L dynamic simply because the writers stupidly decided to ignore it.

Oh, not quite. Remember, quite a large amount of time had passed, much could have happened in the interim. What occurred in BBS wasn't really a stretch at all -- Fry and Leela were close friends following "Devil's Hands", and it was only the arrival of Lars that brought out his deeper feelings for her. Also, a macaroni heart.

Quote
Still, character wise it's flawed. I'm surprised at the people who dislike BBS immediately jumping onto Beast and saying it's the best. I know that BBS ignored a lot of stuff but does that mean that we should like the movie that ignored even more? Screw following up BBS, what about following up the series? That list I wrote doesn't just take into account how OOC F/L are following BBS. I actually wrote more of how it doesn't make sense following the series.

I didn't make up my mind regarding BBS until after BWABB, seeing as how linked they are, character-wise. (At least, as I see them to be linked character-wise.) At any rate, as of now, I give BBS an "Acceptable". Not an "Outstanding" or an "Exceeds Expectations". An "Acceptable".

Quote
That line at the end is just the writers thinking they probably just pissed shippers off by ignoring previous events (essentially all of them) and trying to plant this idea in our minds that she was jealous when all evidence (in terms of the story's self-contained nature) is to the contrary.

Jealousy doesn't even fit in with her actions. She's opposed to Fry's very presence. She too feels like he should go away. She doesn't like Fry pushing himself on her, and perhaps she's simply afraid of him getting too close, particularly after Lars. And, like I said before, it causes him to remember why he got over her in the first place. He gave up. It's over. He's happy now.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
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« Reply #112 on: 06-04-2009 04:23 »

Quote from: Xanthor
I didn't turn anti-shippy, actually. I have never technically been "shippy", as it were.

You seemed pretty shippy to me: http://www.peelified.com/Futurama-Forum-4/Topic-14168-0-The_Intelligent_LongWinde.html

Quote
I didn't make up my mind regarding BBS until after BWABB, seeing as how linked they are, character-wise. (At least, as I see them to be linked character-wise.) At any rate, as of now, I give BBS an "Acceptable". Not an "Outstanding" or an "Exceeds Expectations". An "Acceptable".

I really don't see this link you're talking about. They don't mention BBS at all during BWABB (not even the anomaly. It's there but they never mention that it came from messing with the Time-Code. It's just there). All I see is the writers ignoring all previous character continuity for F/L/a little Amy and Bender in order to make their monster story work.

The writing even suggests this since aside from the movie making no reference to BBS there is that deleted scene that was supposed to be the original opening that has Bender angry at the narrator (read: writers) for ignoring all of BBS other than the anomaly.

Quote
Jealousy doesn't even fit in with her actions. She's opposed to Fry's very presence. She too feels like he should go away. She doesn't like Fry pushing himself on her, and perhaps she's simply afraid of him getting too close, particularly after Lars. And, like I said before, it causes him to remember why he got over her in the first place. He gave up. It's over. He's happy now.

Again, I don't get that feeling. I just see the writers having ignored character/plot continuity for the sake of their Monster story. Those last few lines between F/L are just the writers covering their asses for the ignoring of F/L's relationship. Actually, it doesn't even do much of that since it's practically insulting that story and anybody who likes it (this guy).

P.S. Did you read my OOC post I linked to? I know it's a candidate for a TL:DR but I'd be interested in reading your thoughts.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #113 on: 06-04-2009 07:09 »


Oh dear, oh dear, oh my my my! Yes, I suppose I was rather ardent. Keep in mind, however, that was back when I was of the firm mindset that the only way emotional equilibrium would be achieved was though the mutual, simultaneous declaration of love by both the characters. At that point in their lives, it was my belief that they were destined to be with each other, and "Devil's Hands" was the perfect ending to facilitate this outcome. Of course, anything could have happened as well. So far as series finales go, that episode comes out on top in the "satisfyingly ambiguous" category. Now, though? I suppose I am anti-shippy, since I'm no longer actively campaigning for the two to get together. Not because I'm opposed to the concept, however. Simply because I don't see it as realistic at the juncture from which ITWGY resumed.

Quote
I really don't see this link you're talking about. They don't mention BBS at all during BWABB (not even the anomaly. It's there but they never mention that it came from messing with the Time-Code. It's just there). All I see is the writers ignoring all previous character continuity for F/L/a little Amy and Bender in order to make their monster story work.

That's odd, because for me expecting to see the characters from BBS one month later in BWABB, I see a very realistic relationship between them. I realise that the source of the anomaly and the events of the time code and Fry's paradox duplicate are never mentioned, but that doesn't mean they were ignored. Fry gives up on Leela, fearing the end of the world and realising she's not interested (and doubting that she even cares), while Leela tries to distance herself from him. The actual occurrences of the prequel are unimportant. You'll notice in the Search for Spock, Khan isn't mentioned at all, even in passing.

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Again, I don't get that feeling. I just see the writers having ignored character/plot continuity for the sake of their Monster story. Those last few lines between F/L are just the writers covering their asses for the ignoring of F/L's relationship. Actually, it doesn't even do much of that since it's practically insulting that story and anybody who likes it (this guy).

Hmm. I suppose you and I get a different feeling from that line. I myself gave Fry a little cheer when he said "That's true", and didn't slump his shoulders and wander off down the line like I had been fearing he would. Shows that his emotional experience with Yivo had brought him to a more advanced point (and a less obsessive one) in his life.

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P.S. Did you read my OOC post I linked to? I know it's a candidate for a TL:DR but I'd be interested in reading your thoughts.

* Xanfor cracks knuckles.

Fry dating Colleen was not OOC whatsoever. Edit: You know, Maybe this is OOC after all.

I think that given the fact that Leela and Fry seemed to have reached an agreement not to discuss the Lars matter, and also given the fact that Leela showed no signs of reciprocating to Fry in any manner, Fry realised that Leela was most likely a lost cause, and along with the impending end of the universe, started his relationship with Colleen. Whom he fell for, quite badly, maybe on the rebound or maybe not. Either way, he cared for her deeply. And with great love, comes great jealousy.

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Fry dumping this universe for the one beyond the rift is completely OOC.

It most likely wasn't the break-up with Colleen that made Fry so saddened. Remember, he's getting over an excessively perpetrated crush that he's had for -- how long has it been, nearly a decade counting the years before "Parasites Lost"? It was what breaking up with Colleen represented. Fry genuinely wanted someone to love and be with in his life, and just when he'd left the one he'd thought he wanted, the one he had been considering and fallen for forces him to break off with her. And then, of course, the comment I keep hyping upon, "Sometimes I feel you should go away too." If there was one seriously depressing part of the film, that was it.

The rift wasn't the most logical of places to flee to, of course, but it being a different universe would hold an obvious appeal to him as the science-fiction nerd he is. It's not like he would have been aware of the dangers -- nor is it unlikely that he has faced similar situations before. "Farnsworth Parabox"? "I Dated a Robot"?

And since you mention it, I should make it clear that I understand that Fry could never slide into Lars' place in Leela's life. But I think Leela, in drawing herself away from Fry in the manner that she appears to have done, she created many problems for the both of them. Is it not possible that Fry loved Colleen as much as Leela loved Lars? Granted, Fry wanted to move in and Lars wanted to get married, but as you mentioned, Lars was eight years more mature. He wasn't Fry anymore. Of course Leela needed time to get over the incident. Fry gave her all the time she needed by moving on.

What happened when Fry lost his relationship? No one cares.

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Nobody else has mentioned (I did read though the BWABB thread) what I think is truly the most OOC moment in the film (and the one that really made me dislike it), Leela attempts to kill Fry.

I'll admit that this seems slightly out-of-character, but not overtly so to me. I'll admit, however, that seeing Fry stand up to her fearlessly more than makes up for her irrationality. But, thinking it over, you have to consider the fact that people have been reduced to blibbering sacks of "tentacle lovers" by this entity. For all Leela knows, the tentacle kills you and possesses your mind. Especially considering as how it joins directly with the spinal column. That in mind, is it really so much of a stretch that Leela was considering the worst, and that perhaps it consumed the minds of everyone it assimilated, including their knowledge? Fry himself indeed could have been under complete control, in fact, there was a good chance he was no longer alive. Yes, he wasn't threatening them. The tentacle monster which he was representing was.

As for why she targeted him especially, it seems to me that he was the only one who approached her directly and attempted to convert her. A direct threat, as opposed to the entire population of Earth, who were indirect threats.

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Fry attaching a tentacle to Colleen is an OOC moment.

Love makes people do strange things. He quite likely still had strong feelings for her, and wanted to show her directly that he too was quite open to a polyamorous relationship, and an extremely large one at that. It's a poignant scene, as it reveals to the audience that the assimilated still retain some vestiges of their individuality. Yes, it was sinister. I shivered. It reminded me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

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Amy sleeping with Zapp is somewhat OOC.

Zapp is suave and seductive. Amy was distraught. The event itself distressed me, although the OOCness is adequately explained by these occurrences.

I am quite glad that Kiff seems to have forgiven her by ITWGY.

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The entire universe was acting OOC in the final chapter.

Yivo is a completely asexual being with absolutely no reason to reproduce. So logically, whatever Yivo was doing could not have been sexual in any manner, despite how Leela choose to twist her words. And, don't forget that for a brief period, everyone loved Yivo, before realising what it had done. It's much easier to accept an apology from someone you have feelings for. And those feelings, after a few dates, blossomed back into love again -- this time not forced, but properly cultivated.

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Leela was OOC again at the end.

She never said that she didn't like Yivo, only that she didn't trust it. Only once she realised how much it really did care for everyone did she relent. And think about it: she obviously thought long and hard before coming to her decision to make her declaration of love. It would be extremely odd for her to immediately change her mind and side with the robots trying to "rescue" them.

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There are so many things wrong with this movie that I could fill up pages with my problems. Instead I'll just fill up a long paragraph.

And while I agree with a few of these issues, I see what I can rationalise anywho.

  • Kif was killed so that Yivo could use its universe-spanning powers to recreate his body from his remains, in an attempt to prove that not only could it show remorse for its actions, but also that it cared for how the people of the universe felt and that it wasn't just using their bodies for freaky alien purposes.
  • Yivo didn't break into the Planet Express building because not only was it exhausting to break through the genuine diamond-like material shield, but also because it was simpler to wait. It's existed for what now, how many eternities? One building can wait.
  • Yivo tries to have as many tentacles as there are people in the universe. That's a lot. And if it creates too many, they get tangled quite easily. It's quite a feat of orchestration that it was able to manoeuvre efficiently as many as it already had been doing. Beside, like with Planet Express building, one single individual can wait. It's the whole that matters.
  • It was a futuristic homing paper invented by the Professor, utilising the unique relationship between regular matter and electromatter to track and land somewhere in the vicinity of the antibackwards crystal in the Planet Express building. Seeing as how it made it from one universe to another and managed to land in New New York, I'd say it worked pretty accurately.
  • The League of Robots was mostly for humour. It also help establish Bender as the leader of the robots following the departure of the biological lifeforms, and thus enabled him to successfully convince them to follow him on his "rescue" mission.
  • Colleen could have received more screen time, I'll give you that one.

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I'm done. I don't want to type any more about how much I don't like this movie. Just like with the Star Wars prequels and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, as far as I'm concerned none of this happened. Tell me it did and I'll shove my fingers in my ear and say "Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah".

The fun with having opinions is in debating them. Otherwise, we'd all be minding our own business and life would be boring.

Cheers, mate! smile

FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #114 on: 06-04-2009 07:52 »

Hey, thanks for the response! I'd write more but all it would be is me repeating my bits from my OOC post.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #115 on: 06-04-2009 12:38 »

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And then, of course, the comment I keep hyping upon, "Sometimes I feel you should go away too." If there was one seriously depressing part of the film, that was it.

Word. That has to be one of the worst moments in TBWaBB; the first time I watched it, it made me cringe. (I was not a big fan of the second movie until I rewatched all four films. As I've said elsewhere, I think it has merit as a mindless monster movie send-up.)

As for the points you make, Xanfor, I suppose it's possible that both Fry and Leela were more or less in-character, based on where they stood emotionally at the end of BBS. But I don't think--and this is the ardent, stubborn shipper in me speaking here--that TBWaBB was meant to prove that Fry and Leela were no longer a viable romantic pairing. It's pretty obvious that the writers wanted them to get together (or at least enjoyed teasing us endlessly with the possibility); if their goal in all of this was to prove that Fry/Leela can never work, then I don't see the point of BBS or ItWGY...or much of the original series.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #116 on: 06-04-2009 18:39 »

On reflection I don't think the writers really meant for BWABB to have much bearing on the F/L story at all, hence why the fact that Fry's affection for Leela was only ever alluded twice at the most during the whole film.

However even if they did I don't think it was a case of Fry "getting over" Leela, he only got together with Colleen because they thought the universe was about to end, then after that it was probably just him trying to make it work - and why not? At that point there was no guarantee that Leela would ever come around to him despite the previous film and I guess deep down Fry is just lonely. I think that's what really caused his depression, it wasn't so much Colleen, just that he was alone once again. Sure the extent depression was a bit far fetched but as DXC once said "they needed it for the story". The story sucked for sure but there you go.

I also don't think he was THAT attached to Colleen. Sure he said he loved her but he said that about Umbriel too (amongst others) and like Umbriel as soon as there was even a perceived difficulty he was out the door. After all he was effectively told that if he loved her it would still work, it barely lasted five minutes. Fry's always been a bit eager to use the 'L' word when in relationships, Leela is the only woman who he's stated his love for yet actually backed it up with actions/dedication.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #117 on: 06-04-2009 21:40 »

Oh how I've missed Xanfor's obscenely long posts. The ship thread has officially returned to normal. All we need to do now is track down Shiny and we'll be in business.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #118 on: 06-04-2009 22:07 »

See Gorky, that's the thing. I don't see how Xanfor can see BWABB as the most in character movie when it completely clashes with the other movies/the series.

You've (Gorky) said it before and so has Xanfor that if you place ITWGY after BBS or the series it makes complete sense and only seems weird next to the odd-duck of BWABB. BWABB is the oddest Futurama episode ever. It completely clashes in style, presentation, characterization, plot, and pretty much everything else with the series.
Ralph Snart

Agent Provocateur
Near Death Star Inhabitant
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #119 on: 06-04-2009 22:25 »
« Last Edit on: 06-04-2009 22:28 »

This thread needs balance.  The resident anti-shipper has arrived:

I thought that Leela's comment to Fry in BWABB was typical of her.  She has an almost schizophrenic mindset.  Quick to anger, not open to checking things out and immediately assumes the worst (especially where Fry is concerned).  She goes from appreciating Fry to totally blowing him off and taking a perverse pride in hurting him.  Selfish beyond explanation or belief, she was willing to let him keep the worms in his body just because he became what she wanted in a man, never mind that he was still Fry and never mind that having the worms may been detrimental to his health after a prolonged time.  

Leela is a nutcase - one that any sane man would stay the hell away from.

After BBS, I am totally convinced he's better off without her.

And after the crap DVDs, the writers give the shippers a 15 second blurb at the end, one which is sure to be RESET (tm ST:VOY) if any new DVDs or episodes appear.

Ralph "anti-shipper to the end" Snart
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