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Archonix

Space Pope
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« Reply #40 on: 03-06-2009 14:21 »

It'd only make it domestic if they chose to make it domestic, though. Firefly had a married couple in it but never once slipped into domestic territory - or, if it went near that, it played it for laughs. Big laughs. Mal and Wash having an argument about Wash's wife while they're being tortured on electric chairs is probably the funniest thing I've ever seen...
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #41 on: 03-06-2009 20:26 »

Reposting this from here, 'cause I think it applies:

I found kind of an analogue to the Fry/Leela relationship in ItWGY within the series. One of my favorite episodes is "Insane in the Mainframe", because it's funny and it's got some pathos and there's just the right amount of ship. In that episode, Leela is clearly concerned for Fry's safety, and she treats him with affection--hand-holdin', lip-lockin', cheek-kissin', chest-huggin', hair-flippin'. She takes on the Devastated Girlfriend role, trying to "remind Fry of his humanity" and whatnot; at the end of the episode, she expresses her gratitude to him and kisses him on the cheek. It's not over-the-top, or disconcerting; it's just kind of her accepted attitude towards Fry. I think that's how her feelings towards him are portrayed in ItWGY, just a tad bit more extremely. I mean, if you think about it, her treatment of Fry in this movie is only jarring in relation to TBWABB and BG; disregarding those two movies, it makes sense that she'd be feeling closer to Fry after the events of BBS--after all, he is the only man Leela ever loved.

To build on that, there are eight episodes between the end of BBS and the beginning of ItWGY, right? Looking at the series (in terms of production order, not air-date), two of what I consider the Major Shippy Episodes are pretty far apart. "Parasites Lost" and "Time Keeps on Slipping" are twelve episodes away from each other; in that interim, nothing of truly shippy import occurs (we've got "The Cyberhouse Rules" and "Insane in the Mainframe", but neither of those episodes really relies on the ship). Also, "I Dated a Robot"--which comes right after TKOS--completely ignores the shippy developments, and actually has Fry falling for another, er, thing. It's like the BWaBB of the series. And it's followed by four episodes ("A Leela of Her Own", "A Pharaoh to Remember", "Anthology of Interest II", and "Roswell That Ends Well") that do nothing to advance the ship. Actually, nothing in season three, after TKOS, does a thing for the Fry and Leela quasi-romance.

In season four, granted, the shippier episodes tended to pop up more frequently, so I can see why the tonal changes in the movies are so jarring. But, from a creative standpoint, I can also see why the writers 1.) didn't want to start the movies off with Fry and Leela already in a relationship and 2.) didn't want to devote all four movies to the development of said relationship. You lose a lot of story possibilities--and risk alienating those unfamiliar with the show--if you throw in a lot of exposition as to how, exactly, the romantic relationship between Fry and Leela progressed after TDHaIP. The writers' solution (which I only vaguely agree with), of course, is that there was no relationship.

I'd also argue that the Lars thing was necessary to both enhance the ship and give it some momentum (and it actually got the "Fry and Leela are Meant to Be" thing across much more effectively than a simple "Oh, they fell in love after Devil's Hands and it was rockin' and all, but you don't get to see that relationship develop or anything" would have). I was watching the end of BBS last night, when it occured to me that the writers could've revealed Lars's identity to the viewer (and to Fry), but not to Leela, kind of like the message in the stars thing from TKOS. But the fact that Leela learns that the man she loved was Fry, really does allow the writers to drive the point home that these characters are destined to be together...and Leela's finally beginning to see that. I actually think that, when you watch it knowing that Lars is Fry, BBS is the shippiest thing we've ever gotten.

(Oh, and I like that theory, Archonix. I've never really thought about it, but it makes sense that ItWGY is the movie they would've made if they'd only been given a deal for one film.)

Gorky you've managed to take my all my opinions on the matter and state them for me. Well done.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #42 on: 03-07-2009 00:53 »

If it wasn't for BWABB noone would have batted an eyelid at Leela's apparently uncharacteristic receptiveness to Fry during ITWGY. To tell the truth if I had the chance I'd probably erase BWABB from history (whilst doing away with the cliffhanger ending of BBS of course), it just seemed so out of place and it wasn't that good anyway.

Also in the first "shippy" scene of ITWGY you have to remember that at the time they didn't know whether they'd ever see each other again which, when put into that context, makes the bond understandable.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #43 on: 03-07-2009 02:19 »
« Last Edit on: 03-07-2009 02:30 »

Agreed, Gorge (though, after watching it a second time, I kind of like TBWaBB--it frustrates and amuses me in equal measure). ItWGY flows organically from the events of BBS. And, honestly, I think it works pretty well as a self-contained shippy episode, too. Yes, Leela's insta-love is a bit--not out-of-character--let's call it surprising; but at least the writers established, pretty much from the get-go, that she was concerned about Fry.

See, I actually consider that exchange in the restaurant--"Are you sure you're okay, Fry? I mean, you do have tin-foil on your head"--to be the first shippy scene of the movie. When I first saw that--having been spoiled for the end, anyway--I kind of had an "aha!" moment: "Oh," said I, "she's worried about Fry. That's kind of nice." (My "aha!" moments are horribly mundane and poorly articulated.) To me, that shows the writers recognized that, hey, it'd be nice to establish that Fry and Leela aren't indifferent to each other, like they were in the middle two movies.

And, if I may be so dorky: in the first scene of the second "episode" of ItWGY, when Fry is mourning the supposed loss of Bender, Leela seems genuinely upset on his behalf. Maybe my shippy eyes deceive me, but, to me, it sure looked like she felt bad for the guy, like she wanted to comfort him. I thought that was a nice touch, and more proof that the writers intended for Leela to finally treat Fry with genuine affection.   
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
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« Reply #44 on: 03-29-2009 13:15 »
« Last Edit on: 03-29-2009 13:46 »

Also (and this might be a really anti-shippy thing to say), if Fry and Leela ever had a baby, I'd probably stop caring about their relationship. Ditto if they got married, like, instantly.

And there you have the reason why they've dragged it out for so long and it ain't about wussing out - people lose interest. It's a fact. Take any number of shows where the 'ship is the central part of the show and boom, watch those ratings drop. Of course, with Futurama it's always been a side issue so that won't happen. Hopefully.

I found kind of an analogue to the Fry/Leela relationship in ItWGY within the series. One of my favorite episodes is "Insane in the Mainframe", because it's funny and it's got some pathos and there's just the right amount of ship. In that episode, Leela is clearly concerned for Fry's safety, and she treats him with affection--hand-holdin', lip-lockin', cheek-kissin', chest-huggin', hair-flippin'. She takes on the Devastated Girlfriend role, trying to "remind Fry of his humanity" and whatnot; at the end of the episode, she expresses her gratitude to him and kisses him on the cheek.

Thats her maternal side coming out more than her romantic side I'd say, apart from the kissing bits, obviously. She displays the same sort of caring nature towards Nibbler. I think she'll make a good mother.

Plus theres loads of potential with that last scene of ITWGY, what with Nibbler's shadow there and all - it's another Nexus point, surely? Like Fry's going into the Cryotube. There all sorts of potential for revisting that point. Maybe even F&L's kids returning to that point to save their parents and their own future - oh god no, it's "Back to the Future!"  tongue
Decapodian

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #45 on: 03-30-2009 09:54 »

Also (and this might be a really anti-shippy thing to say), if Fry and Leela ever had a baby, I'd probably stop caring about their relationship. Ditto if they got married, like, instantly.

And there you have the reason why they've dragged it out for so long and it ain't about wussing out - people lose interest. It's a fact. Take any number of shows where the 'ship is the central part of the show and boom, watch those ratings drop. Of course, with Futurama it's always been a side issue so that won't happen. Hopefully.

Hopefully, Zoidberg will always be around to defuse romantic situations, like in the Valentines Day Episode.

Side Note: I am very dissapointed at the lack of Zoidberg in the four movies. He plays a very minor role. Even Kif has a bigger role than he does.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #46 on: 03-30-2009 14:17 »

people lose interest.

It's like when your best mate gets married. It was okay when he just had a girlfriend, but once he has a wife, you need to start looking for another drinking buddy.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #47 on: 03-30-2009 14:41 »

people lose interest.

It's like when your best mate gets married. It was okay when he just had a girlfriend, but once he has a wife, you need to start looking for another drinking buddy.

I dunno, maybe you are right about the drinking buddy, but when my friend got married, he still got Microsoft to give us a free Xbox 360.

I dunno, he still sounds pretty dedicated.  Though, he says he doesn't have much time to play on his own at home.

Hmmmmm...
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #48 on: 03-30-2009 14:53 »

Why are you so insolent today? There's no disagreeing - if I say something then it's true.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #49 on: 03-30-2009 14:54 »

Why are you so insolent today? There's no disagreeing - if I say something then it's true.

Really.  In my book it's the reverse, if you say something then it's false.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #50 on: 03-30-2009 14:57 »

You daft bastard - I am the way, the truth and the life.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #51 on: 03-30-2009 15:02 »

You daft bastard - I am the way, the truth and the life.

Life sucks.
J.Fry
Crustacean
*
« Reply #52 on: 03-31-2009 04:21 »

Agreed, Gorge (though, after watching it a second time, I kind of like TBWaBB--it frustrates and amuses me in equal measure). ItWGY flows organically from the events of BBS. And, honestly, I think it works pretty well as a self-contained shippy episode, too. Yes, Leela's insta-love is a bit--not out-of-character--let's call it surprising; but at least the writers established, pretty much from the get-go, that she was concerned about Fry.

SPOILER (for those who havent seen the movie ItWGY)

I think that part from the movie were Leela needed a mascot and went to Planet Express to get the mean Leech was a big turning point for that shippy thing.

She was on the run and not in a good stand at life. When Fry came to her she wanted to explain herself to him why she is sabotaging "Dad" Wong's golf plans.

Well you know... Fry told to her that whole "You are you and thats what matters" thing. And I guess thats were she found out that she can rely on Fry (in a relationship kind of way). She always had a soft spot for him and thats when it finally made "click" and thats all about it. At the end Leela herself was able to say that "You are you" thing too after all.

I hope that if Futurama continues they will finally stay together. Why? Well Im actually not a "shipper". I find it cool/funny seeing Fry chasing some other Women around too. I think that the shippy thing was an interesting "plot" which made for some fantastic stories (like BBS) but its getting tiring really.... There all the time these massive build ups just to let everything down again. After a while you think to yourself "Whats the point?". And how many times are they serving to us the same old story just with another twist?
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #53 on: 04-05-2009 05:22 »
« Last Edit on: 04-05-2009 05:26 »

And there you have the reason why they've dragged it out for so long and it ain't about wussing out - people lose interest. It's a fact. Take any number of shows where the 'ship is the central part of the show and boom, watch those ratings drop. Of course, with Futurama it's always been a side issue so that won't happen. Hopefully.

Hey, no argument here.

Quote
Thats her maternal side coming out more than her romantic side I'd say, apart from the kissing bits, obviously. She displays the same sort of caring nature towards Nibbler. I think she'll make a good mother.

That's a valid interpretation, but I choose to see everything Leela does in "Insane in the Mainframe" as shippy, 'cause I'm hopeless like that. And I think that was the way the writers intended it to seem, especially because of the kisses (and Leela's almost affectionate rebuff of Fry when he asks why human women refuse to date him). However, I do think that it's behavior that Leela herself would dismiss by claiming it was driven by her motherly instincts--when it's pretty clear that she's got a soft-spot for Fry that's more romantic than, you know, Freudian.

 
I think that part from the movie were Leela needed a mascot and went to Planet Express to get the mean Leech was a big turning point for that shippy thing.

She was on the run and not in a good stand at life. When Fry came to her she wanted to explain herself to him why she is sabotaging "Dad" Wong's golf plans.

Well you know... Fry told to her that whole "You are you and thats what matters" thing. And I guess thats were she found out that she can rely on Fry (in a relationship kind of way). She always had a soft spot for him and thats when it finally made "click" and thats all about it. At the end Leela herself was able to say that "You are you" thing too after all.

I agree with this, too. I've seen people argue (on PEEL or elsewhere, I can't remember) that Fry has made much grander gestures of love for Leela throughout the series, and so it's kind of a cop-out for her to suddenly decide she loves him just because he's willing to destroy himself to save her. But I think it's pretty easy to discount most of those instances, for one of two reasons: either Leela wasn't around to see Fry's actions, or the actions in question were performed with the intent of, in Fry's own words, making Leela love him.

"Time Keeps on Slipping" and "The Why of Fry" are two examples of Fry doing something romantic or selfless, and Leela not being aware of it. She inadvertently blows up the love note in TKoS, and she's obviously not present when Fry freezes himself to save her in TWoF. So it's kind of unreasonable to assume that she'd fall in love with him when she's not even privy to what he's doing.

And then there are episodes like "The Devil's Hands are Idle Playthings", in which Fry actually states that the Robot Devil's hands will give him "the power to make Leela love [him]." I mean, I love that episode, but Fry believing that he can just make Leela fall for him is kind of insulting. He obviously means well, but I think he's almost trying to manipulate Leela's emotions by being the kind of man he thinks she wants.

In ItWGY, however, Fry's actions are driven by love, but not by the desire to make Leela love him. Nowhere in the movie does he say, "Hey, if I help Leela save that big dumb star, she'll want to jump my bones" (or something to that effect). He chooses to help her because he recognizes that the Violet Dwarf is important to her--because she's her, and that's all he needs to know. He's not expecting a reward for his actions; he's doing it solely to make Leela happy.

And that, to me, is why Leela's later repetition of that line is so important. She finally sees that Fry is selfless and thoughful and mature--that he respects her and would do anything for her. And maybe she's kind of known that all along, but "after all they've been through" in ItWGY, she was finally able to realize that she trusts Fry completely, and that she loves him.

To be fair, Fry has done plenty of other meaningful things for Leela without expecting her to fall for him in return (finding her parents and sitting at her bedside in "The Sting" being the two most prominent examples). But I still think I make a half-decent argument for the shippy conclusion of ItWGY.
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
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« Reply #54 on: 04-05-2009 06:30 »


   I agree with this, too. I've seen people argue (on PEEL or elsewhere, I can't remember) that Fry has made much grander gestures of love for Leela throughout the series, and so it's kind of a cop-out for her to suddenly decide she loves him just because he's willing to destroy himself to save her. But I think it's pretty easy to discount most of those instances, for one of two reasons: either Leela wasn't around to see Fry's actions, or the actions in question were performed with the intent of, in Fry's own words, making Leela love him.


Saving her life (at the potential cost of his own) doesn't seem to 'count' as the right sort of gesture either, if giving her his air at the end of Love and Rocket (or at least the lack of flow-on from that episode) is anything to go by.

Quote

   To be fair, Fry has done plenty of other meaningful things for Leela without expecting her to fall for him in return (finding her parents and sitting at her bedside in "The Sting" being the two most prominent examples). But I still think I make a half-decent argument for the shippy conclusion of ItWGY.


I've always felt that (strange as this may sound) the flower that Fry gave to Leela after her bad date with Chaz (The Why of Fry) is perhaps the purest, most disinterested*, and (probably) the most unexpectedly "romantic" thing he has ever done for her. (And he was essentially manipulated into doing it by Nibbler.) Even his 'one-sentence-too-many' isn't (for once) a mistake. But by next week... click goes the Reset Switch.


* Disinterested (as opposed to uninterested) in the sense that he wasn't doing it to further an agenda ("make her love me"), nor because another aspect of their relationship required it ("any friend would have done the same"), and certainly not because it was the 'right' thing to do (c.f. my air example [above]).

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
Decapodian

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #55 on: 04-05-2009 08:24 »

But by next week... click goes the Reset Switch.

Ah yes. The Reset Switch. The shipper's natural predator.
Curious Gorge

Bending Unit
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« Reply #56 on: 04-05-2009 11:38 »
« Last Edit on: 04-05-2009 11:40 »

I agree with this, too. I've seen people argue (on PEEL or elsewhere, I can't remember) that Fry has made much grander gestures of love for Leela throughout the series, and so it's kind of a cop-out for her to suddenly decide she loves him just because he's willing to destroy himself to save her. But I think it's pretty easy to discount most of those instances, for one of two reasons: either Leela wasn't around to see Fry's actions, or the actions in question were performed with the intent of, in Fry's own words, making Leela love him.

I must admit that one of the things that made ITWGY so satisfying was that Fry didn't really have to do anything to win her over aside from just being himself. It wasn't as though he had to change himself in any way to make it happen and that made it seem more genuine. It was certainly preferable to him having to do something really showy to make her come around and it was pretty sweet that he didn't need to.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #57 on: 04-05-2009 19:01 »

Saving her life (at the potential cost of his own) doesn't seem to 'count' as the right sort of gesture either, if giving her his air at the end of Love and Rocket (or at least the lack of flow-on from that episode) is anything to go by.

Dang--to be honest, I completely forgot about "Love and Rocket". But one could argue that giving Leela his air was not a romantic gesture, but something Fry did out of friendship (hell, if Bender was in the same position--and if, like, he actually needed oxygen to survive--I think Fry would've done the same thing). And in any event, Leela and Fry seem a bit closer by the end of the episode, what with the hand-holding and such. I don't think subsequent episodes count as a reset of this progress; I think they just choose to ignore it. (Not to say that's any better, 'cause it's not.)

Quote
I've always felt that (strange as this may sound) the flower that Fry gave to Leela after her bad date with Chaz (The Why of Fry) is perhaps the purest, most disinterested*, and (probably) the most unexpectedly "romantic" thing he has ever done for her. (And he was essentially manipulated into doing it by Nibbler.) Even his 'one-sentence-too-many' isn't (for once) a mistake. But by next week... click goes the Reset Switch.

I really like that, hobbitboy--makes perfect sense (and it makes me find that moment about five times sweeter than I already did). As for the resetting: this episode does eventually lead to "The Sting" (I'm pretty sure "Where No Fan Has Gone Before" is the only episode between 'em), so I guess you could say that Leela filed her affection for Fry neatly away in her subconscious, only to have her feelings reemerge while she was in a coma. (Admittedly, I'm reading a bit too much into this, but I don't think it's totally implausible.)

I must admit that one of the things that made ITWGY so satisfying was that Fry didn't really have to do anything to win her over aside from just being himself. It wasn't as though he had to change himself in any way to make it happen and that made it seem more genuine. It was certainly preferable to him having to do something really showy to make her come around and it was pretty sweet that he didn't need to.

I think that's what I've been trying to say, only less eloquently than you did. I guess I feel as if the ball has been in Leela's court since "Parasites Lost": Fry admitted he loved her, and he continued to love her for the remainder of the series. After the disaster with the worms, Fry's feelings for Leela didn't change--in fact, I believe they actually matured and grew stronger. And I think the same can be said for Leela; in season four, especially, she started to let her guard down a little and test the waters with Fry (she kisses him at the end of TWoF; she agrees to go on a date with him at the end of "The Farnsworth Parabox"). The problem, to me, was never that Leela didn't love Fry; it was that Leela was too proud or set in her ways to admit that she loved him (hence the comment about "waiting to long to say this" before the ILY in ItWGY). So I think the ship, after "Parasites Lost", was all about Leela coming to terms with her feelings. And, if that's the case, then Fry never had to worry about making her love him; basically, he just had to sit back, be himself, and let Leela sort things out for herself. Which is exactly what happened in ItWGY.
J.Fry
Crustacean
*
« Reply #58 on: 04-05-2009 22:13 »

I think the end in Love and Rocket doesnt count much.
At the end there was that "sugar heart magic" going on which made everyone on planet earth romantic.

So even if Leela wanted to get romantic with Fry, she had no chance.... she had to get romantic with him.

And then Zoidberg appeared... and you know that he always screws things up.

Also maybe Leela isnt only to proud to feel something for Fry, I guess she is also unshure of him. Since he's actually a lil womanizer (with the most hardcore thing happening then in the Roswell Ends Well episode - you know what I mean).
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #59 on: 05-09-2009 17:17 »
« Last Edit on: 05-09-2009 18:17 »

She finally sees that Fry is selfless and thoughful and mature--that he respects her and would do anything for her.

Maturing. That in many ways is what BBS was about - him learning to accept that another person's happiness should come first, if thats what they want or need - and not simply be concerned about his own selfish wants, and desires. Of course Lars' death does tend to negate that argument somewhat, but it does show his potential.

But one could argue that giving Leela his air was not a romantic gesture, but something Fry did out of friendship

I think the point is it was a selfless gesture and whether it was done purely out of love (as I believe) or out of simple friendship, the point is Leela did appreciate it, as a selfless act - and it meant more to her than all the cloying declarations of love and candy hearts that Fry kept pestering her with and thats why they're closer together at the end.

The problem, to me, was never that Leela didn't love Fry; it was that Leela was too proud or set in her ways to admit that she loved him

"Theres nothing wrong with having high standards" - Leela, Loves Labors Lost in Space

It's more do with Fry not meeting her ideal of a romantic match. Leela doesn't go out of her way to date jerks (as many a shippy thread, or fanfic would have it), she dates confident, ambitious, succesful men who subsequently turn out to be jerks.

In contrast to them theres Fry, whos not bright, ambitious or particularly successful  but theres his good qualities - his decency, selflessness, quiet courage and his heart of gold - which are not obvious and only come to shine in contrast to the bad qualities of the others. So it's a case of her coming to see his less obvious qualities and learning to trust them, as she did in ITWGY.
Gorky

Space Pope
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« Reply #60 on: 05-09-2009 19:46 »
« Last Edit on: 05-09-2009 19:47 »

Maturing. That in many ways is what BBS was about - him learning to accept that another person's happiness should come first, if thats what they want or need - and not simply be concerned about his own selfish wants, and desires. Of course Lars' death does tend to negate that argument somewhat, but it does show his potential.

I'm not sure that Lars's death negates Fry's growth in the movie. Yes, sacrificing himself for Leela is impulsive and all, but it's also an incredibly mature and noble act (and it's somewhat of a parallel to Fry's willingness to sacrifice himself at the end of ItWGY). Fry is definitely much more mature at the end of BBS than he was in the beginning, and I think that's what allows Leela to accept Lars and Fry as the same person (what with the "Yeah, you were [a good man]" thing).

Quote
I think the point is it was a selfless gesture and whether it was done purely out of love (as I believe) or out of simple friendship, the point is Leela did appreciate it, as a selfless act - and it meant more to her than all the cloying declarations of love and candy hearts that Fry kept pestering her with and thats why they're closer together at the end.

Oh, I think it was done out of love, too. I was referring to it as platonically selfless as a way of downplaying its importance and explaining why the closeness between Fry and Leela at the end of "Love and Rocket" wasn't really built upon in subsequent episodes.

Quote
It's more do with Fry not meeting her ideal of a romantic match. Leela doesn't go out of her way to date jerks (as many a shippy thread, or fanfic would have it), she dates confident, ambitious, succesful men who subsequently turn out to be jerks.

Good point. I've always considered the jerk-iness of Leela boyfriends to be a conceit of the writing. Like you say, it's not like she's actively seeking out men that will treat her like crap.

Quote
In contrast to them theres Fry, whos not bright, ambitious or particularly successful  but theres his good qualities - his decency, selflessness, quiet courage and his heart of gold - which are not obvious and only come to shine in contrast to the bad qualities of the others. So it's a case of her coming to see his less obvious qualities and learning to trust them, as she did in ITWGY.

I think Leela always knew Fry was a sweet guy, and she admits in TKoS that she loves his boyish charm. Those, to me, are very obvious qualities. She's also seen him in courageous/selfless/decent mode (the whole oxygen thing in "Love and Rocket" and choosing to keep Seymour fossilized in "Jurassic Bark", just to pick two examples). The events of ItWGY do allow all these qualities to shine through, though, so I do agree with you there.
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #61 on: 05-09-2009 21:35 »

I'm not sure that Lars's death negates Fry's growth in the movie. Yes, sacrificing himself for Leela is impulsive and all, but it's also an incredibly mature and noble act... Fry is definitely much more mature at the end of BBS than he was in the beginning, and I think that's what allows Leela to accept Lars and Fry as the same person (what with the "Yeah, you were [a good man]" thing).

I was thinking more along the lines that it's duplicate Lars/Fry who undergoes the Leelu/Leela maturation process rather than the original Fry who remains largely unchanged if his jealous reaction at the wedding was anything to go by. But hopefully he has learnt something from Lars' sacrifice was all that I meant. And to Leela  I agree it meant a hell of a lot (watch her reaction when she realises that Lars is Fry, she turns towards him in amazement, and deeper understanding.)

Quote
(and it's somewhat of a parallel to Fry's willingness to sacrifice himself at the end of ItWGY).

Exactly. The writers are riffing on a theme. A theme that began with Love and Rocket.

I think Leela always knew Fry was a sweet guy, and she admits in TKoS that she loves his boyish charm. Those, to me, are very obvious qualities.

Oh sure, I agree she's always had a soft spot for him. Thats why she falls almost immediately for improved Fry in PL for example. smile
WAVer

Bending Unit
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« Reply #62 on: 05-11-2009 15:32 »

Hello. It's been quite some time since I've grazed the futurama forums here, but I wanted to give my greetings to everyone that might remember me and those Im saying hi to for the first time. I've always been a huge shipper for the Leela and Fry relationship, and I feel like I'd like to add what I feel is appropriate. The way that "Into the Wild Green Yonder" ended gave shippers like me a happy ending, but I still can't help but feel like they should of had already been together at the end of Season 4, with dhaipt. Other episodes prior to this one were leading to this kind of conclusion regardless. Anyway, I've seen how many people felt about the first few movies that came out already lol. Anyway, thats my take for now
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #63 on: 05-11-2009 15:52 »

Harry/Luna 4evr!!!1! love

Oh, wait, wrong forum...
coldangel

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« Reply #64 on: 05-12-2009 01:09 »

Xan.... no no
Frisco17

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« Reply #65 on: 05-12-2009 03:49 »

4?
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« Reply #66 on: 05-12-2009 07:42 »

ITWGY made it painfully obvious where they were going with L/F - when Bender was ratting Leela out to Zapp, he mentioned that Leela had one weakness - that weakness was talking to Fry.

Still, after the horrible way the DVD's were handled - two of which were basically unwatchable and the way they used the fucking RESET button so many times, I just don't have any faith in the writers, DXC or Groening.

If they can progress from where ITWGY ended, I'll be looking forward to more episodes.  If all they can do is hit "RESET" again, let the damned thing stay dead.
FistfulOAwesome

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« Reply #67 on: 05-12-2009 07:51 »

They are not going to hit the reset button again. Comic-Con 2008 taught the crew what happens when you slight your fans and I don't think they want to have a repeat of it. Plus, DXC pretty much said they are in it for the long haul (http://io9.com/5165221/if-futurama-comes-back-whats-next-for-planet-express).

If they screw with it again I would probably abandon the entire series. Not because I'm a F/L shipper but because if they aren't willing to handle that story with some respect I'd have a hard time believing they could handle any other.
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« Reply #68 on: 05-12-2009 09:59 »

They are not going to hit the reset button again. Comic-Con 2008 taught the crew what happens when you slight your fans and I don't think they want to have a repeat of it. Plus, DXC pretty much said they are in it for the long haul (http://io9.com/5165221/if-futurama-comes-back-whats-next-for-planet-express).

I read somewhere that DXC had to deal with some really pissed fans @ Comic-Con 2008 and was never able to find the article again.  If I remember correctly, these fans had the same feelings I did towards the DVD's:  Nothing really new, a lot of retreaded jokes, poor stories, BBS destroying canon and most of the episodes that had large emotional impacts and absolutely ignoring Devil's Hands ending.  I've not mentioned it since I only saw it once and may have read some thing incorrectly.

Quote
If they screw with it again I would probably abandon the entire series. Not because I'm a F/L shipper but because if they aren't willing to handle that story with some respect I'd have a hard time believing they could handle any other.

That's how I feel.  My wife is a huge F/L shipper and I was once but after BBS, I became one of the biggest anti-shippers around.  Why bother wasting time with a romance when all you're going to do is totally ignore it and at times, totally reset all the progress made?  Why bother?  All the DVD's did with the way the "ship" was handled was make Fry appear to be the biggest loser in the universe with stalker-like tendancies and Leela appear to be a bitchy ice-queen who liked Fry being around to sauve her bruised ego when she didn't get what she wanted.  The fact that Leela would openly flaunt her romances in Fry's face, knowing his feelings for her made her to be one of the most unlikable, heartless, sadistic bitches ever to appear on my TV screen.  For Fry to take that treatment and still wear his heart on his sleeve for her made him the biggest loser with absolutely no backbone, self-esteem or any manly features.
hobbitboy

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« Reply #69 on: 05-12-2009 12:10 »


   All the DVD's did with the way the "ship" was handled was make Fry appear to be the biggest loser in the universe with stalker-like tendancies and Leela appear to be a bitchy ice-queen who liked Fry being around to sauve her bruised ego when she didn't get what she wanted.  The fact that Leela would openly flaunt her romances in Fry's face, knowing his feelings for her made her to be one of the most unlikable, heartless, sadistic bitches ever to appear on my TV screen.  For Fry to take that treatment and still wear his heart on his sleeve for her made him the biggest loser with absolutely no backbone, self-esteem or any manly features.


As opposed to the television episodes which, of course, didn't have them exhibiting any of this sort of behaviour?

The main difference (that I can recall) is that unlike the TV episodes, the (first three) DVD's* didn't try to "right the ship" by the time each one wrapped up.


Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
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« Reply #70 on: 05-12-2009 14:48 »

I would not consider myself a shipper (because emotions are dumb and should be hated), but I fear the main reason for me not being a shipper is the fact that this relationship we are engaging has always been pretty one-sided.  And no, it is not something the films did, it was pretty early on.

I think it was SoS who pointed out "Parasites Lost", where Leela states that "she loves what [Fry] has become", rather than what he is.  And Leela has pretty much since season 3 seem like a total bitch to me, which is why I mostly prefer non-shippy episodes, where I don't have to endure the misery of Fry.

So when BBS reset that, I honestly did not care.  I always considered the ending of "The Devil's Hands Are Idle Playthings" as a nice touch, but nothing really serious; I mean, come on, Fry actually getting her?  Every time that happens, Leela seems out of character to me.  Or maybe she's out of character whenever she is that bitchy.

But maybe the Professor is right, maybe Leela is just a slave to her emotions, just like all women and has wild mood swings.

I sort of like the subtle romance in season 1 and 2, where it seemed entirely superficial.  But I don't think Futurama should be all about shipping and whatnot, but I have to agree with Ralph's statement, that I am a wee bit sceptical about the content of the return of the show.
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« Reply #71 on: 05-12-2009 17:26 »

I liked the subtle romance from 1 & 2 as well. Best part about it in those seasons is that it was actually Leela who was carrying it rather than Fry. When they got around to Season 3 and decided to make it a big deal of it is when Leela lost her receptiveness to Fry. I understand why though: The audience is mostly male.

It would be hard for a male fan to identify with Leela so they decided to make it about Fry. Every one of us males probably knows the pain of knowing a great girl and having her not want to get into a relationship with you for fear of ruining what you already have.

Still, The writers did not have to go that far with Leela. She could have let him down without seeming like a huge bitch about it and maybe have some more small moments between them in the non-shippy episodes. Thankfully S4 did a good job of balancing the relationship (still tipped toward Fry but more balanced than S3).

ITWGY is easily the best shippy episode. The ship is used in a believable and mature way. It is used to tie the two characters together and fantastically at that. When the series returns the writers should take a long look at ITWGY for how to write the F/L relationship correctly.
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« Reply #72 on: 05-12-2009 20:09 »
« Last Edit on: 05-12-2009 20:12 »

See, I don't get this whole "bitch" thing. Perhaps someone could explain it for me because I'm really not seeing it.

And ITWGY is the best shippy episode because... she finally came round? Ergo she's no longer a bitch? Or am I missing something?
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« Reply #73 on: 05-12-2009 20:30 »

See, I don't get this whole "bitch" thing. Perhaps someone could explain it for me because I'm really not seeing it.

And ITWGY is the best shippy episode because... she finally came round? Ergo she's no longer a bitch? Or am I missing something?

Dude, it's kinda like a joke, if you don't "get it" then explaining it won't make it funny.

The same way with Leela's bitchiness - if you can't see it, then nobody can show it to you.

But to make you happy, I see Fry as big a loser as I see Leela. 
FistfulOAwesome

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« Reply #74 on: 05-12-2009 20:31 »

Leela's bitch status is mostly in reference to that Leela doesn't take Fry's feelings for her into account in S3,BBS/slightly in S4. She knows that he loves her (or at least says he does) but never seems to let him down easy (314-waits until he is at his lowest point until she feels sorry enough for him to let him move the ship, 410-"Confidentially, I might not make it to my apartment tonight" in other words "I'm going to screw this other, successful guy."). Personally, I think the whole bitch angle is a bit much but I understand why Ralph and others feel she acts like one sometimes.

ITWGY is the best shippy episode because the ship isn't completely one-sided anymore. Leela obviously cares about Fry throughout the entire movie as does Fry to her. While it isn't made the sole focus of the movie it's handled in a positive way and their closeness is major for resolving the plot.
Chug a Bug

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« Reply #75 on: 05-12-2009 20:44 »
« Last Edit on: 05-13-2009 00:14 »

But to make you happy, I see Fry as big a loser as I see Leela. 

Well, at least it's balanced.

And FOA, thanks for explaining.
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« Reply #76 on: 05-13-2009 03:05 »
« Last Edit on: 05-13-2009 03:07 »

Honestly, I think Leela was at her bitchiest--and most self-centered--in "Parasites Lost". There, you see her at her selfish best, sabotaging the rest of the crew's de-worming mission because she wants the new, articulate Fry--not the dumb, immature one. When she tells Fry that she loves what he's become...god, that's brutal. And then she can't even see the nobility--and, ultimately, maturity--in Fry getting rid of the worms; mainly, she's annoyed that she's stuck with the same, stupid Fry again.

But, when you think about it, "Parasites Lost" is the shippy episode prototype, so I'm willing to overlook Leela's characterization, to an extent. The next seriously ship-tastic episode is "Time Keeps on Slipping"--and I think it handles the ship much more fairly, by at least attempting to give us Leela's side of things (the conversation with Zoidberg: "Fry is very sweet, but he's so immature; I love his boyish charm, but I hate his childishness"). I've expressed this opinion elsewhere, but I think that the shippy episodes definitely matured as seasons three and four progressed. The relationship stopped being so one-sided, and we got more stories where the affection was either mutual ("Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles"), or you saw Leela coming around to the notion of dating Fry ("Love and Rocket", "The Sting", "The Farnsworth Parabox"). Honestly, I think the relationship was handled well, considering that the writers chose to keep it unrequited for most of the series; the excessive resetting, of course, was ridiculous (and I also find it odd that, like others have mentioned, the attraction stopped being portrayed as mutual after season two).

But, disregarding the movies (which used the reset button much more harshly than the series ever did, IMO), I think the relationship was handled well enough. There were some missteps, sure. But I think that, if you can somehow erase BBS, TBWaBB, and BG from canon--meaning that Devil's Hands is directly followed by ItWGY--the relationship seems a lot more consistent. I'd argue that you could keep BBS, too, but I know most people view it as the World's Biggest Reset, so I'll leave that topic alone.
 
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« Reply #77 on: 05-13-2009 03:37 »
« Last Edit on: 05-13-2009 03:44 »

I'm in complete agreement with you Gorky. The only thing I would have changed about the F/L relationship is to make it more prominent in the "off" episodes (just a line or two to show their closeness (similar to how F/B friendship was handled).

P.S. It isn't that hard to erase BBS and BWABB from canon. As long as you pretend that F/L/P were surprised at Nibblers talking in BG you can erase BBS and nothing of consequence happens in BWABB so that one is finished. It is kinda weird that the one that had to be accepted is BG (or else how is the switch from Dark Matter to Whale Oil explained) but nobody is forcing you to watch it so you can just keep that little story in the back of your mind. Also, if it's any consolation you can also pretend the fantasy bit didn't happen by pretending that Igner told the Professor his secret in the Nibblonian Chamber so that cuts down the episode to just the Leela Angry and Dark Matter secret storyline (the better part of the episode anyway).
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« Reply #78 on: 05-14-2009 02:43 »

See, I don't get this whole "bitch" thing. Perhaps someone could explain it for me because I'm really not seeing it.

Scroll down to number two...  tongue
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« Reply #79 on: 05-15-2009 19:36 »
« Last Edit on: 05-16-2009 00:09 »

I can see where Gorky is coming from with Parasites Lost, it is selfish of her to want the new, improved Fry as opposed to the old, dumb one - but aren't we all capable of being selfish at times? I know I am. Hell I can be a real pain in the ass at times, and even I know it. The way I see it is she's not acting out of malice but rather by blind self-interest, and I guess we're all capable of that at times. Maybe I'm very forgiving, but I don't believe she's being deliberately nasty, it's just part of who she is. I guess it depends on whether that bugs you or not... myself it doesn't, but I guess I can see how other people may be irritated by it.

Besides, she does genuinely believe that Fry is better off with the worms and I can see her point, so it's not totally self-interested. She wants him to better himself, for his own sake as much for hers, whereas he wants to see if it's truly him she loves or what the worms have made of him, so as so often in the series they're at cross-purposes and when it all blows up in their faces the fall-out is truly toxic.


^ I liked Peggy Bundy. She was hot too.  tongue
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