Ship Trek: Deep Thread Nine

[Reply #400 on:]

 

Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
  1995 Coupe.  The engine is a LT1 bored and stroked to 383 cid,  Lt4 cam, Hypertech reflashed ECM, 58 mm throttle body, automatic overdrive transmission with B&M shift kit, 285/40-17 Cooper ZR rated tires and Corbeau A4 racing seats.

And yes, I'm also a fan.     

C4! I love those cars.
I've always been a Camaro fan myself, but there's no reason I can't respect big brother.    (Currently drive a Taurus SHO, hoping to move to a fourth gen Camaro with an LS1 as close to stock as possible before the end of summer.)

 

Originally posted by Frisco17:
Anybody who think's he wasn't brainwashed obviously wasn't paying attention. Not only was he acting unusually evil there for a while but I also refuse to believe that he knows what the word "diction" means. It seems like something he would snicker childishly at instead of using it properly in a sentence.

Fry has been known to use "big words" on multiple occasions in the past, using the word dictation properly is hardly a good indicator of whether or not Fry is brainwashed. It's in an old thread somewhere.

I really don't like the brainwashed idea, remember that the universe was about to dump Yivo until he proposed to them. Everyone would like to be in paradise when they first see it, even if they do eventually reject it.

Excellent point in regards to Leela falling in line at the end. She has never been worn down and given up like that before. God knows Fry has tried...

[Reply #401 on:]

I agree... I've been taken aback with Fry's vocabulary before; and in such instances he used the words correctly... I'd have to think of examples though.

[Reply #402 on:]

I meant that on top of the whole old english thing before. All used correcty. That's a bit much for him I think.

 

Originally posted by winna:
If we had eternal bodies in this realm, we wouldn't be able to go to real heaven!   

Good point.

[Reply #403 on:]

 

Originally posted by winna:
... I'd have to think of examples though.

I instanced "symposia" on the previous page, and there was also the "rue and lament" thing, for two.

As far as the brainwashing goes, it can be a matter of interpretation. Clearly people were influenced by Yivo; the question is how much. To
what degree were they really desirous of Yivo/"heaven" of their own free will?
If the next movie chooses to not contain much continuity again, we probably won't find out definitively one way or the other.

 

Originally posted by aknightofni:
It does sort of feel like they got to the heaven part, then someone looked at the time stamp on the frame and went "shit... running out of time! Leela loves Yivo now MAKE WITH THE FIGHTING!" 

Utterly.

[Reply #404 on:]

One thing that I've just been briefly discussing with the wife. Look at Yivo. One eye, purple "tails"... seems Fry is just sublimating his desire for Leela onto other things that have purple bits and one of something instead of two. He keeps looking for surrogate Leelas that actually return his affection. Make of it what you will.

[Reply #405 on:]

Well shit, dude, it's not like there were plenty of planet-sized genticle-covered aliens of all shapes, colors and varieties in that universe! He got possessed by the first one he saw!

Which may say something else altogether about Fry.

[Reply #406 on:]

He loved Yivo for reason he loved Morgan Proctor, because of the part of him thats desperate!

[Reply #407 on:]

 

Originally posted by Sine Wave:
The sad part is that in the storyboard for the original first act of BWABB, they almost seem to be making jokes about the flaws in the movie. "Haha, we're ignoring everything in BBS" "Haha, we're ignoring Fry's pining for Leela."

Yes, that part of the commentary irked me for the same reason.  I don't mind the continuity flaws regarding physics or some of the other plot-lines, but the ones that affect relationships really displease me.  I realize that BwaBB is mainly meant to be a spoof of a 1950's sci-fi monster flick as seen through the funky lens of Futurama and I did find it entertaining as such.  However, the abrupt stops and zig-zags in Fry and Leela's off-again/off-again romance make me want to hurl.

(two minutes 'til the end)
Leela: OK, I'm not suspicious of Yivo anymore; now I love him.
Huh?

(thirty seconds to go)
Leela: Alright, I admit that I am jealous of Colleen.
OK, I'm glad to hear that and it was interesting to see Fry just casually brush off Leela's revelation but it sure would have been nice to see a little more interaction.  I wonder if the dialogue of their argument can be isolated and if it is coherent or just babbling.

[Reply #408 on:]

 

Originally posted by Archonix:
One thing that I've just been briefly discussing with the wife. Look at Yivo. One eye, purple "tails"... seems Fry is just sublimating his desire for Leela onto other things that have purple bits and one of something instead of two. He keeps looking for surrogate Leelas that actually return his affection. Make of it what you will.

Colleen didn't have one eye or purple hair. 

[Reply #409 on:]

Yes, and look how quickly they broke up again. 

Bah. I never said it was a universal thing, it just seems to be a very strong pattern in his behaviour.

[Reply #410 on:]

Perhaps Fry has a fetish for lifeforms that have "one thing instead of two" and are purple.

[Reply #411 on:]

 

Originally posted by km73:
I instanced "symposia" on the previous page, and there was also the "rue and lament" thing, for two.

"There but for the flip of a coin go we."

Crap, now I'm arguing against myself. He was found unconscious by Yivo, who then possessed him and brainwashed him dammit!

And the next movie is sid to try to explain things in BBS and with the Nobblonians. No word on BWABB, though, and personally no real faith on how well of a job they'll do.

[Reply #412 on:]

   

Originally posted by Archonix:
Yes, and look how quickly they broke up again.     

Bah. I never said it was a universal thing, it just seems to be a very strong pattern in his behaviour.

I like to think of it as a symbolic hint to us viewers rather than a view into Fry's motives.  We have the red and purple Narwaals of BBS and the red and purple otters of "Parasites Lost", the red and purple "Normal Combat" players (as pointed out by Frida Waterfall)  and then the pinky-purple one eyed Yivo and schler red-headed pope.  There is all this symbolism out there implying that there is some sort of destiny between Fry and Leela, whether it is true love or true friendship.

[Reply #413 on:]

Fry and Colleen broke up for a good reason.

Fry's relationship with Yivo makes a lot of sense... he was heart broken and ready to throw everything away (Tell me you can't find a young man between 20 and 30 who hasn't thought of offing himself over relationship issues...) and then Yivo found him, saved him, and comforted him.

I find Leela coming over to the Yivo side reasonable as well.... she'd spent days (weeks?) seeing the repercussions and came to the realization that she was wrong... it takes people a long time.  The only part of that argument you guys have is that it happened with 2 minutes to spare in the movie.... maybe they could have stretched it out another 10.... but budget and time constraints do exist......  I also think the fighting at the end worked and was reasonable as well.

Archonix, your suggestion as to Fry's involvement is interesting.  I won't say that it's case in fact, but as FordMustang stated, it can be considered symbolic by the writers and creators as yet another relationship of Fry/Leela.

[Reply #414 on:]

I would have preferred more of a hint of Leela changing her mind. Right up to the last minute she was skeptical and critical of Yivo. Then suddenly, bam, a mind change.

Then again, considering that element in a single 22 minute episode it actually does work... it's a matter of perspective really.

[Reply #415 on:]

Well, Yivo didn't show up until the movie was halfway over to begin with if that helps.

[Reply #416 on:]

I just felt it was far too abrupt.

Well, if the writers are going to try to explain something in Bender's Game about the Nibblonians, they can start with why Nibbler talked to the PE crew so readily, only to then be defeated so easily... They'll have a good task explaining why memories weren't blanked.

Oh, and another thing we were wrong about besides Leela showing jealousy was Colleen being some kind of manifestation or aspect of Yivo. I still think that would've made more logical sense, or at least been interesting, but oh well.

Finally, regarding color symbolism: no, Colleen didn't have one of anything or purple hair, but she and Michelle both wore a lot of purple and purple tones. Just an observation.
Not drawing any conclusions from it though.

[Reply #417 on:]

I'm probably going to get a bit off-topic here (not always shippy, but about the items being discussed), and that's only because there's so many topics being brought up on the thread at the moment. Also, my thoughts are still mixed up and unorganized on the two new Futurama movies. I think I will need to see all four before I get a final verdict.

On this page of the shipper's thread, km73 brought up whether or not the tentacled followers were brainwashed or not. I can't really tell if they were. They really seemed brainwashed in nature, considering how they lost all interation with the rest of the world, but they could have been acting so abnormal because they were experiencing the love of the tentacle. I do firmly stand that Fry wasn't brainwashed at all. When Fry got hooked on the tentacle, he was already depressed and desperate for any form of love. I can only assume that in Yivo's universe a plan was made between him and Yivo to invade Earth and spread the love to everyone. However, the only thing that I really believe that prevented any brainwashing was his lack of the delta brainwave. Yes, the writers haven't acknowledge that fact yet in the movies, but for all we know the delta brainwave could be the major brainwave attacked duing brainwashing.

[Reply #418 on:]

Yeah, I was basically extrapolating off Sine's concept on the last page on how to make the movie - in particular Fry's uncharacteristic behavior in it - a little more understandable.
One can argue about the degree of influence the tentacles had on different people.

 

They really seemed brainwashed in nature, considering how they lost all interation with the rest of the world, but they could have been acting so abnormal because they were experiencing the love of the tentacle.

Right, it's more or less open to interpretation, regardless of what they might have said in the movie; it doesn't have to be taken at face value that they were all acting of their own free will or going along with Yivo of their own accord.
But if Fry was immune, then it's kinda hard to reconcile with some of his behavior and actions.

Interesting point about the delta wave.

[Reply #419 on:]

Rather than being a stand-in for Leela, I think Colleen represents a purposeful departure from Leela. She is much more "girly" and rather demure compared to Leela.  Physically, she is based on Brittany Murphy right down to the honey blonde hair and rather slim figure.  She's obviously the lovey-dovey type, complete with the saccharine, cutesy language.  All of these are in contrast to Leela. 

(By the way, on re-watching a couple of times I now think that Leela displays a little jealousy at their introduction and not just at the very end.  Leela not only finds Fry and Colleen's snuggle-bunny talk sickening, but she's also the only one who continues to stand and glare at the door, arms folded, after Fry and Colleen leave.)

Regarding Yivo and brainwashing, I wouldn't call it that, although the affect is essentially the same.  He just took advantage of our brains' pre-disposition to fall in love.  Everyone who was tentacled or "genticled" was made to experience an intense non-sexual feeling of love for (maybe with) Yivo.  It's the kind of thing that blinds men who get married.  To the outside observer, even myself when looking back on it with the perspective of several years, it seems like the act of a brainwashed person, standing there at the altar promising to love one woman for better or worse.  Yivo doesn't seem to be controlling their minds, but he has somehow tapped into the part of their brains that triggers romantic, emotional love.  Charlie Manson and Jim Jones managed to achieve the same effect on many of their followers; Yivo just did it via some sort of instantaneous connection with the love center of the brain.

[Reply #420 on:]

If you notice, it made it crystal clear that Fry only can be with Leela, and no one else. Bender would kill anyone who takes Fry's attention away from him, but he likes Leela, he'd more than likely make an exception for her. Failing that, there's always something wrong that splits them up anyway. But look at Lars/Leela, if not for the doomed duplicate thing, they'd be together for good. It's obvious neither of them can ever be with anyone else.

And this is from someone who doesn't even care about those 2 getting together. Now Amy and Zapp on the other hand.....

[Reply #421 on:]

 

Originally posted by Anarchy_Balsac:
If you notice, it made it crystal clear that Fry only can be with Leela, and no one else. Bender would kill anyone who takes Fry's attention away from him...

Sir, you have found the key to the whole damn thing.

 

Now Amy and Zapp on the other hand...

Yes, that's an interesting development; it probably won't go anywhere but it would be fun.

[Reply #422 on:]

 

Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:

Yes, the writers haven't acknowledge that fact yet in the movies, but for all we know the delta brainwave could be the major brainwave attacked duing brainwashing.

Actually, it's the brainwave of NREM sleep.

I'm too tired at present to both read and comprehend this entire thread, so I've just settled for reading it. Thus far, I'd just like to remark that I agree with everyone. Except that I don't believe Fry was brainwashed and I believe that everyone was in-character and I believe that the 'Ship was handle perfectly.

I'll be back once I've recovered from this post-coital Doctor Who series finale tristesse.

[Reply #423 on:]

 

Originally posted by Xanfor:
 Actually, it's the brainwave of NREM sleep.

I'm too tired at present to both read and comprehend this entire thread, so I've just settled for reading it. Thus far, I'd just like to remark that I agree with everyone. Except that I don't believe Fry was brainwashed and I believe that everyone was in-character and I believe that the 'Ship was handle perfectly.

I'll be back once I've recovered from this post-coital Doctor Who series finale tristesse.

EDIT: Where's my entire post?!?

[Reply #424 on:]

..I don't know, where is it?

Ooh, 'tristesse', that's a capital word.
 

[Reply #425 on:]

That says a LOT about how the brainspawn would use it to control disable minds, it also explains why we never see Fry sleepwalking or anything. He'd be a perfect character to go there with, but without the delta brainwave he logically can't.

Anyways back on subject, I think my point is simply that BWABB isn't being looked at as closely as I've noticed other episodes have been. Perhaps this is because not much time has passed for such observations to come to pass, still, a little digging would reveal that Xanfor is correct. The Fry/Leela ship was handled correctly, the animators were just far more subtle about it than with BBS. But subtlety is not exactly a new tactic on their part.

And as for Amy/Zapp, well, Amy WAS comforting Zapp after Kif punched him. Besides, the comedic potential is practically limitless.

[Reply #426 on:]

 

Originally posted by Xanfor:
 Actually, it's the brainwave of NREM sleep.

Okay, let me try this again.

I do realize that the delta brainwave is the brainwave used mainly in NREM sleep. I don't know much about science. I do realize that Futurama is a math and science show. However, as it is just a fictional piece of work, it doesn't always follow all the rules of physics (etc.). For example (the biggest example according to a commentary), in "I Dated a Robot", when Zoidberg cuts open the bag of popcorn kernals, the bag bursts open and kernals shoot out of, out of the small window for the projection system in the theater, and down below to all the Lucy Liu-bots. We don't know whether or not the Futurama crew kept the function of the delta brainwave the same as it is in reality. Again, I don't know much about math or science, but I could only begin to guess that the Futurama crew did not keep the delta brainwave as a primary brainwave in sleep. I don't have much of an argument to support this. First off, robots and some plant life do have the delta brainwave, but robots don't really have a need for sleep (this is a pretty weak reason). Robots just possessing a brainwave is already far-fetched (as far as my inferior knowledge goes, I don't think robots produce brainwaves). Second, Fry, the only known lifeform in the universe that lacks this key brainwave, doesn't seem to be affected in ways that it I think it normally would be (again, weak reasoning, and what I think could be wrong). Fry does seem to still have dreams (don't know if the delta brainwave affects dreams), as he did have two dreams in "A Fishful of Dollars" (however, both were commercials). I don't want to get too much into it, because what I can say now could be totally wrong. If you could provide me a link to some solid, easy-to-understand information on the delta brainwave, then I could obtain a better understanding of it.

Sorry if I made it sound straightforward simple (as if I was talking to somebody that already got the instructions previously, didn't bother to listen, and is asking me to repeat the instructions only to not pay attention again and take up my own time). Not only do I have to make sure my thoughts are clear, but I am still very annoyed that my original post did not come up (I need to stick to my main internet browser Firefox).

[Reply #427 on:]

I'm also in the company that character actions and relationships were handled well in BWaBB.  And I'll also echo the subtle nuances.  My best example is how Leela looked and acted at the wedding.  I think this is in direct consequence of Fry having somebody to be with.

[Reply #428 on:]

She looked pretty down at the wedding that's for sure, didn't like being the one without a date for a change!

[Reply #429 on:]

Of course, being hit on by Zapp didn't help. 

[Reply #430 on:]

 

Originally posted by winna:
I'm also in the company that character actions and relationships were handled well in BWaBB.  And I'll also echo the subtle nuances.  My best example is how Leela looked and acted at the wedding.  I think this is in direct consequence of Fry having somebody to be with.

I'll third on that. Considering it had to follow the Fry/Leela trainwreck "Bender's Big Score", and how they just lightly added some subtle inferences to the emotions following the events of said trainwreck, I'd say they did the best that they could do considering the use of the "reset button" ("The system fails again!" ).

[Reply #431 on:]

 

Originally posted by Xanfor:
I'm too tired at present to both read and comprehend this entire thread, so I've just settled for reading it. Thus far, I'd just like to remark that I agree with everyone. Except that I don't believe Fry was brainwashed and I believe that everyone was in-character and I believe that the 'Ship was handled perfectly.

I'll be back once I've recovered from this post-coital Doctor Who series finale tristesse.

Well after that I expect another rediculously well thought out page long explaination like the one you made for BBS.

 

Originally posted by Archonix:
I would have preferred more of a hint of Leela changing her mind. Right up to the last minute she was skeptical and critical of Yivo. Then suddenly, bam, a mind change.

Yeah that was one of my main complaints the story wouldn't have been affected if Leela never gave in at all. I might have said this already but I think it would have made more sense if she'd have accepted Yivo's offer to return to Earth and then helped Bender with his invansion. It seems to fit the "Leela against the universe" theme of the rest of the movie better. Either that or they could have at least given some indication that she was beginning to change her mind.

[Reply #432 on:]

 

... Either that or they could have at least given some indication that she was beginning to change her mind.

It would be out of character. Mind you, that while Leela does show mild signs of things sometimes, she is extremely reserved with her true personal feelings about everything.

[Reply #433 on:]

True, but it's not like her to do such a sudden about-face, either. Remember, she's not very "impulsive". The equivalent of what she did in this movie would've been, like, if she had suddenly decided to side with Nixon in AHITP or COTH, or with the Trisolians in My Three Suns.

[Reply #434 on:]

They aren't exactly the same because everybody else in the universe, including her friends, weren't on the other side in those case but it's a good point.

[Reply #435 on:]

I'm just going to through this theory/idea/whatever you want to call it out in the open, and it's only really because I just watched a re-run of "Xmas Story" on Comedy Central.

Connecting into the new movies, I have some belief that Matt Groening, David X. Cohen and crew wanted to have a recurring theme of loneliness in Fry and Leela's love lives. From the pilot episode, Fry and Leela were both introduced as two lonely characters- Fry just lost everybody he knew and loved in the 20th century, and Leela was clueless to her origins and was marked as an outcast by everybody around her. Soon, loneliness is becoming a pressure. Like in "Love's Labours Lost in Space"(?), Leela was pressured to do it with Zapp Brannigan because he picked up the "loneliness" card (actually, that's a pretty smart move when you think about it). I could go on and on about the examples presented in the main series. Now with "The Beast with a Billion Backs", Fry not only entered a serious depression from his appearant loneliness, but Leela seemed to be succummed into her loneliness like how a fish splashes around in a puddle of water trying to breathe in what's left. We all got to admit, single-player Pong is pretty low, especially at a Fon-Fon Rubok (spelling?) ceremony. I still need to watch this part again, but I think Leela was pressured by loneliness to fall out and accept that she wants to be in love with Yivo (not sure if she was in love, though, I should look into that too).

Well, it could be just a coincidence that loneliness comes up so much (probably is). Considering Futurama is a show dramatically focused on the lives of a handful of singles, it was kind of the angle to go for.

[Reply #436 on:]

Well, no, it's not really a coincidence. Loneliness and isolation are two of the overarching themes of the show, given how at least part of it deals with what meaning there can still be in a slightly dystopian future. It explores the different ways characters might have of dealing with loneliness in The Future, but ultimately on a personal level things are still similar.

[Reply #437 on:]

The loneliness/outcast theme is one of the more appealing parts of the show for me, it is so in-depth. I knew Leela had trust issues from being an orphan, but seeing it affect her interactions with the other characters is fascinating! Fry traded the depression of his 20th century life-without-purpose to unrequited love for Leela; this is simplifying of course, but the show has always taken pains to reveal more about the main characters.  So I completely agree with km + Frida.
In BWABB I believe we saw a lot detail about relationships, in particular Fry but Bender, Leela, Amy and Kif (Zapp was pretty much the same I think   ). I thought Fry showed maturity when he left Colleen (or immaturity if you thought he should have been more open-minded I suppose), and apparently felt quite certain about Yivo- currently debated in another thread; Bender, as was mentioned in another thread, acted out his emotions in a big way, first taking over Earth and later attacking Yivo (Fry cared for Bender, prompting him to write the letter and catalyzing the second event); beneath the Horror-movie idea of Leela running from the tentacles and eventually standing alone I find a metaphor for fear of commitment, emotional attachment, etc- this also explains her long reluctance to accept Yivo, and characteristically her trust is broken almost immediately after she accepts shklim; both Amy and Kif reveal much more about their morals and beliefs, I am just not nearly as invested in them as I am with the first 3 characters.
In short, I appreciated the detail that various relationships were approached with in the movie and am looking forward to the "sweet ending" as said about the fourth movie.

[Reply #438 on:]

 

Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:
I'm just going to through this theory/idea/whatever you want to call it out in the open, and it's only really because I just watched a re-run of "Xmas Story" on Comedy Central.

Connecting into the new movies, I have some belief that Matt Groening, David X. Cohen and crew wanted to have a recurring theme of loneliness in Fry and Leela's love lives. From the pilot episode, Fry and Leela were both introduced as two lonely characters- Fry just lost everybody he knew and loved in the 20th century, and Leela was clueless to her origins and was marked as an outcast by everybody around her. Soon, loneliness is becoming a pressure. Like in "Love's Labours Lost in Space"(?), Leela was pressured to do it with Zapp Brannigan because he picked up the "loneliness" card (actually, that's a pretty smart move when you think about it). I could go on and on about the examples presented in the main series. Now with "The Beast with a Billion Backs", Fry not only entered a serious depression from his appearant loneliness, but Leela seemed to be succummed into her loneliness like how a fish splashes around in a puddle of water trying to breathe in what's left. We all got to admit, single-player Pong is pretty low, especially at a Fon-Fon Rubok (spelling?) ceremony. I still need to watch this part again, but I think Leela was pressured by loneliness to fall out and accept that she wants to be in love with Yivo (not sure if she was in love, though, I should look into that too).

Well, it could be just a coincidence that loneliness comes up so much (probably is). Considering Futurama is a show dramatically focused on the lives of a handful of singles, it was kind of the angle to go for.

See this is why we call you Shiny II. Very well done.

[Reply #439 on:]

taken from : http://www.newsarama.com/tv/080717-DavidXCohen.html

"NRAMA: The eternal question. Are we ever going to have a final answer on the relationship between Leela and Fry? I mean at the end of the series it looked they were going to be together, now they most definitely aren’t.

DXC: Well, we’re going to go a little further down that avenue in DVD 4. So, I don’t want to get too far ahead. DVD 3 is more of a romp. With DVD 4, that’s going to be central to the entire storyline. We’ve worked hard on it.

In fact, one of the reasons why we worked so hard on it is we still don’t know if after the fourth DVD if we’ll be back again. In a way it’s a very similar situation to the last episode of the TV series. We didn’t know if that was it or not, so we kind of set it up so we didn’t exactly say ‘This is it. Goodbye!’ but we made sure there was closure. It certainly was better than blowing up all the characters in one big atomic blast. This way we set things up so viewers and writers would have been satisfied, just in case the DVD is the last one. "

Exactly what I thought. But good to hear it.