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Author Topic: Ship Trek: Deep Thread Nine  (Read 38226 times)
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Archonix

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« on: 05-10-2008 05:21 »

Xanfor said it so it must be true.

This title is just asking for Kirk/Spock slash...
winna

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« Reply #1 on: 05-10-2008 07:00 »

Mulder and Scully were perfect for eachother.. both engulfed in the same work offbeat individuals who had long disconnected themselves with mainstream society.... I don't know if they could have ever settled down and raise a family, but in their own way they could be together... amidst the chaos that was...

<font size=3>THE X-FILES</font>
coldangel

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« Reply #2 on: 05-10-2008 07:01 »

Apparently they're gonna get hot and heavy in the new film, The X-Files: I Want to Believe, due out on July 24th.
winna

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« Reply #3 on: 05-10-2008 07:07 »

Now is a great time to do things they couldn't do with the series.  They're past their zenith, so they know they don't have to keep a series running for lord knows how long...

<font size=3>The X-FILES</font>
coldangel

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« Reply #4 on: 05-10-2008 07:35 »

But will they still be on only a last-name basis while in the sack?
Archonix

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« Reply #5 on: 05-10-2008 07:56 »

I detect mockery.
coldangel

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« Reply #6 on: 05-10-2008 08:04 »

Not from me, you gender-swapping sicko.
Mulder and Scully are, at least, potentially romantic leads in a cult TV show. So it's sort of on-topic. Sort of... Though they ain't Fry and Leela... not even remotely related.
Archonix

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« Reply #7 on: 05-10-2008 08:40 »

Dulmer and Lucsley.
Ralph Snart

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« Reply #8 on: 05-10-2008 11:06 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Archonix:
Xanfor said it so it must be true.

This title is just asking for Kirk/Spock slash...

Nope, not gonna do it.

But there is one evil in the universe.  The Cylons are a group of candy stripers, the Klingons are pansies and even Darth Vader won't mess with this cauldron of evil.

This form of evil is capable of destroying even the ship of Scully/Mulder, Kirk/Spock, Leela/Fry and even the menage et trois of Amy/Leela/Farnsworth...

This man is:



OSAMMA BIN KENOBI!

Be afraid, be very afraid...

winna

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« Reply #9 on: 05-10-2008 11:08 »

You're the one that brought up Spock/Kirk Archonix...  You could have at least been a little closer on target and brought up Sisko and SevenofNine...  roll eyes

Also, to answer your question coldy, I find their speaking on last name basis kind of endearing... However, they've proven at points throughout the series that when in intimate situations they can use eachother's first name.  So, I'm going with they'd probably always be Mulder & Scully deep down, but if their relationship went to the next level they'd call eachother Fox & Dana more often up to the point where they tied the knot... which of course would mark when they start calling eachother Mr. and Mrs. Mulder. yes.
Ralph Snart

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« Reply #10 on: 05-10-2008 11:20 »

 
Quote
You could have at least been a little closer on target and brought up Sisko and SevenofNine... 

I've got some Janeway and Seven.  Want me to share?
SpaceCase

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« Reply #11 on: 05-10-2008 11:38 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
I've got some Janeway and Seven.  Want me to share?
[*Starts to reply*]

[*Bites tongue*]
winna

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« Reply #12 on: 05-10-2008 11:51 »

I'd rather hear more about Sisko... he seems a lonely man burdened of responsibility...  hmpf
Bendersfan1221

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« Reply #13 on: 05-10-2008 12:15 »

Starting up the Trek Slash and talking about crap I don't know about, surprisingly normal.
winna

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« Reply #14 on: 05-10-2008 12:23 »

I was one of the few people that watched Voyager more... I know it was pretty cheesy, but it was ok that way...  Also, I liked Janeway as captain.  She was a strong leader, gender aside or not.
WAVer

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« Reply #15 on: 05-10-2008 12:29 »

Uh-Oh! I see the word "ship" in the thread's title. You know that that means...

Archonix

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« Reply #16 on: 05-10-2008 12:34 »

I really should draw something shippy...
Bendersfan1221

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« Reply #17 on: 05-10-2008 12:58 »

Yes you should Arch. Nice pict WAVer.
Frida Waterfall

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« Reply #18 on: 05-10-2008 13:03 »
« Last Edit on: 05-10-2008 13:03 »

Can people please refrain from posting pictures?
winna

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« Reply #19 on: 05-10-2008 13:13 »

This obviously isn't the fanart forum... it's for discussion about characters, but could you please give explanation to your request Frida?

I don't really see the harm in it as long as it doesn't detract from the discussion.... usually it sparks it up more.
WAVer

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« Reply #20 on: 05-10-2008 13:32 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:
Can people please refrain from posting pictures?

I sincerely apologize if my posting pics on threads like these offends you, but please be aware that people have been doing this in the Human Resource dept Forums for as long as Peel as been around. My intention is to not deter from discussions, but I am adding to what is already great. I do intend to add more from time to time.
Frida Waterfall

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« Reply #21 on: 05-10-2008 14:18 »
« Last Edit on: 05-10-2008 14:18 »

I can't say that I'm offended, rather so upset.

Let's take a trip through the PEEL time machine and go back two shipper's threads ago.

 http://www.peelified.com/cgi-bin/Futurama/11-001242-1/

Please browse through all of the pages in this thread. Do you notice anything?

There seems to be a correlation with the conversation and picture ratio. Just from skimming through the thread, you can tell that whenever massive amounts of pictures were posted, the quality and quantity of discussion plummets. When the trends continue, the entire thread becomes a total joke. An embarassment to the On-Topic PEEL world.

I know I haven't posted on PEEL very much for the past several months, and I apologize for my inactivity. If it wasn't for that not-much-Futurama movie and finals, I'd be posting more often. However, I still continue to visit PEEL on a daily if not no more than a weekly basis, and during those sessions I always head to the shipper's thread first. I always love to see if there's any new discussion on the shipper's thread. Within the past few days on the end of the previous thread, conversation was bubbling just like back in the day when Shiny was around to pass her wise words of wisedom.

It takes the village idiot to burn down the town. As soon as some village idiot posts a picture or a similar material, discussion becomes silly, sloppy, and thin, as shown in the shipper's thread.

I'm totally fine with the occassional picture or two, but here are my guidelines with posting a picture.
1. Top of the thread post goofy picture. Sure, go ahead and post a dancing ninja. You deserve it. I'm fine with these nonsensical pictures. I'm not one for celebrating if your post is on the top, but I have done it before with the fad of the Trek Slash three shipper's threads before.
2. Pictures that are 100% relevant to the discussion. I wouldn't consider any picture of Fry and Leela to qualify for this. For example, if we were talking about Fry and Bender in "The Beast with a Billion Backs", if you have a screenshot of the exact moment you're referring to and it would be a huge benefit if it was posted, then under my opinion it would be suitable.
3. Something of interest to start some new discussion. Not many pictures or any fan base material does this. The only time that I found it appropriate was when Archronix posted his ironic Fry and Leela comics, but other than that that's basically it.
4. Other occassional nonsensical pictures that barely fit the conversation. Just take a look at what Ralph Snart posted in this new shipper's thread. Nonsensical, but not detracting from the conversation.

That's all I could come up with for my personal set of guidelines. If I come up with any more exceptions, I'll try to find this post again and add it in.

Much like winna and a few others, I detest most fan art and all fan fiction. You know what, I can't say if "detest" is the right word to describe my emotions to fan material. I do sometimes, but very rarely look at fan art or read fan fiction, and in the case of fan fiction I only skim to parts that I'm more interested in. I'm probably going to be offending to most PEELers here, so take caution before you read any further.

I'm a very canon person. I like all my material to be considered canon. I only "read" fanfiction to view other fan's ideas. Many years ago I've attempted writing Fry/Leela fanfiction. Let's just say it was so crappy and non-Futurama, I never posted it (nor finish the first chapter) and from that point on, promised myself that keep the writing to the writers who have the character's interest and the universe at heart (though this didn't show in "Bender's Big Score" ).

P.S.: Most fan fictions don't have the canon feel as many fan fictionists have poor characterizations, don't include the Groening humor, dramatize their works, and add in unnecessary characters.

I'm anal when it comes to fan art. I only appreciate fan art done in the canon Groening style, nothing else. I like most of Archronix's art, because his style is similar enough to the Groening style. However, I should also note that not only does the fan art have to have the Groening style, it must also be in-character. So please, don't stick a cigarette in Leela's mouth and call it "in-character". But don't forget the cigarette or toothpick for Sal!
fryandlemon

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« Reply #22 on: 05-10-2008 14:25 »

WAVer posted the picture when the thread was off topic... I don't see the harm either - it brightens the thread, sometimes manages to get it back on track, and makes it more colourful and shippy.  I vote we keep the pictures...  If you really hate it that much Frida, maybe we should make a rule that anyone who posts one, has to include something shippy in text below as well?

BTW, you brought it off topic again  wink  And I realise I did too, dammit!

But I agree that any pictures that aren't futurama related or shippy, do not belong on this thread.
Archonix

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« Reply #23 on: 05-10-2008 14:37 »

Ship nazi!  wink
Frida Waterfall

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« Reply #24 on: 05-10-2008 14:50 »
« Last Edit on: 05-10-2008 14:50 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by fryandlemon:
But I agree that any pictures that aren't futurama related or shippy, do not belong on this thread.

Did you totally miss my point?

   
Quote
Originally posted by fryandlemon:
WAVer posted the picture when the thread was off topic... I don't see the harm either - it brightens the thread, sometimes manages to get it back on track, and makes it more colourful and shippy.  I vote we keep the pictures...  If you really hate it that much Frida, maybe we should make a rule that anyone who posts one, has to include something shippy in text below as well?

BTW, you brought it off topic again     wink  And I realise I did too, dammit!

One, he posted the picture only for the fact it was shippy. Should we be going around and posting picture on this thread just because they're shippy? Two, it wasn't on topic in the first place. I don't know how exactly that picture could spark a conversation.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Archonix:
Ship nazi!    wink

NO SHIP FOR YOU!

I honestly cannot stand it when PEELers just randomly come on and post nonsense (not Trek Slash nonsense, shipping nonsense). In one of the earlier shipping threads, somebody decided to come on, pick out several framegrabs from several shippy episodes, make these collages, and try to connect words, emotions, and captions to them. Or even in later threads, people would grab as many pictures as they can of one specific ships or as many ships as they can think of, post them in a collage, and try to add to the conversation with that alone. In either case, it doesn't work very well. The best way you could add or spark a discussion is to add your opinion or ask a universal question from my personal experience. When somebody comes along and posts the "nonsense" shippy pictures, it makes them look like a n00b who's attitude toward shipping is "lalala leilahndfry".

The only thing that is worser than picture collages is altered song lyrics. I'm not going to get started on those.
WAVer

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***
« Reply #25 on: 05-10-2008 14:52 »
« Last Edit on: 05-10-2008 14:52 »

I understand how you feel, Frida. I really do, and like I said, my intentions are not to have this thread covered with pics. I, too, took a long, extended break from futurama in general because of the movie that first came out. I feel exactly the same way Ralph Snart does. I honestly couldn't believe that the first movie disregarded Season 4 as a whole, and because of that, I felt disoriented and depressed, so I decided to take a break from it. Added to that, it doesn't mean that I disowned Futurama or hated it, because I am a fan of it regardless... Anyway, I do appreciate any feedback I get from long-time futurama fans like FryAndLemon and Archonix.   big grin

P.S. I posted the pictures because they were SHIPPY and because they were Futurama. Again, I was adding to the topic, not deterring from it. If it seemed like the opposite, then I do apologize.
km73

Space Pope
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« Reply #26 on: 05-10-2008 15:08 »

Holy wow, Frida.
Well, for my general opinion, I'll just quote myself from the previous thread:

 
Quote
Originally posted by km73:
I hold that for a work to qualify as Futurama-related, it should have at least a semblance of Futurama about it. Its representational content ought to be such that it is at least recognizable as having something whatsoever to do with the show and its characters.

The same holds true for fiction as well as artwork.

Also,

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:
P.S.: Most fan fictions don't have the canon feel as many fan fictionists have poor characterizations, don't include the Groening humor, dramatize their works, and add in unnecessary characters.

Very true. But some don't, and a few are highly excellent.   smile
fryandlemon

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« Reply #27 on: 05-10-2008 15:09 »
« Last Edit on: 05-10-2008 15:09 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by WAVer:
Anyway, I do appreciate any feedback I get from long-time futurama fans like FryAndLemon and Archonix.     big grin
I for one, hope you don't stop posting pictures   big grin   I love the last one you posted - I haven't seen it before. 

 
Quote
P.S. I posted the pictures because they were SHIPPY and because they were Futurama. Again, I was adding to the topic, not deterring from it. If it seemed like the opposite, then I do apologize.
Agreed.  Your post was the only thing on the topic of Futurama shipping in the whole page   laff  I really hope we don't decide to get rid of shippy pics and framegrabs on this thread   frown  I love them   big grin

So what was everyone's favorite shippy moment in the series and why?  One moment, any ship.
winna

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« Reply #28 on: 05-10-2008 15:44 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by WAVer:
but please be aware that people have been doing this in the Human Resource dept Forums for as long as Peel as been around.

Not true.  This forum and General Disscussion were mostly if not entirely discussion based forums once long ago...

Btw, I don't hate the fanart community... I came to the internet, looked for Futurama, and downloaded just about every high quality fan-created thing I could find.  But that's my criteria, I prefer high-quality images that spark my interest.  I won't detract from anyone else's enjoyment of the series by embracing their artistic side; in fact, I encourage it because if you work at it long enough, I believe you'll produce something that I'm interested in.  I'm not a fanfiction person though, and I've already stated that.

Anyways, on the topic of pictures in these threads, I'm kind of on the fence here.  I agree with you Frida when it detracts from the discussion; that's your problem with it and it's reasonable.  I appreciate you representing your opinion on how you think things should be.... I take this place pretty personal myself, and I know I can't stop everyone from doing whatever they want, but I can guide the norm, and I'm more concerned with that anyway. 

I don't know if the ship pictures of Fry/Leela detract from the conversation.  I didn't click your links Frida, I may after awhile, but I can certainly imagine what you're suggesting happens.  As I said when I asked about your position, I supposed that such pictures would more likely create and stir up conversation, as long as everyone didn't go "awww, that's sooo schweet!"  Hopefully people will take things in moderation with your suggestions and you can get more of it what you came here for: Conversations on the relationships between characters.

 
Quote
Originally posted by fryandlemon:So what was everyone's favorite shippy moment in the series and why?

I think off the top of my head.... I'm going with Amy's car breaking down on Mercury.  Amy & Fry start talking, finding common ground, and realizing that they found eachother attractive.  It was a simple boy meets girl moment and I found it to be realistic and cute; I want to have relationships like that myself.
fryandlemon

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« Reply #29 on: 05-10-2008 16:14 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by winna:
Not true. This forum and General Disscussion were mostly if not entirely discussion based forums once long ago...
I think the first thread ever had a "shippy pic of the day" thing going on, with plenty of discussion as well.  Of couse, Shiny was around in those days, so there was never any lack of in depth shippy discussion.. I miss her...

 
Quote
I don't know if the ship pictures of Fry/Leela detract from the conversation. I didn't click your links Frida, I may after awhile, but I can certainly imagine what you're suggesting happens. As I said when I asked about your position, I supposed that such pictures would more likely create and stir up conversation, as long as everyone didn't go "awww, that's sooo schweet!" Hopefully people will take things in moderation with your suggestions and you can get more of it what you came here for: Conversations on the relationships between characters.
I hope we don't stop shippy pics, because they sometimes do bring about discussions.  And if you really wanted to be on topic Frida, why not try to start a shippy discussion instead of bashing the shippy futurama pictures on this thread?

 
Quote
I think off the top of my head.... I'm going with Amy's car breaking down on Mercury. Amy & Fry start talking, finding common ground, and realizing that they found eachother attractive. It was a simple boy meets girl moment and I found it to be realistic and cute; I want to have relationships like that myself.
That was a good moment  smile  I really liked how Fry and Amy got together as well.  I'm also glad we got to see what they were like together in a relationship.  The way they got together in the car was definitely cute and realistic.  But I think it was always obvious it wouldn't last.

I have too many favorite shippy moments to pick just one, but one of my favorites is the "You leave me breathless" candy in Love and Rocket and when Fry slides his hand over Leela's at the end of the episode.  SO CUTE  love

Frisco17

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« Reply #30 on: 05-10-2008 16:14 »

In my experience it seems like people mosly post shippy pictures after we've gone completly off topic and it seems to actually imporove the discussion. That's all I have to say about that.

(Steps back to avoid being torched)
winna

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« Reply #31 on: 05-10-2008 16:36 »
« Last Edit on: 05-10-2008 16:36 »

@fryandlemon:

It was only obvious that it wouldn't last because the writers had already intended for Leela to be Fry's sexual tension.  In a real world position I think it's possible Fry could have avoided being a dick and stayed with Amy for a long time.... him being a dick was for comedy purposes only... and to follow the Primary Clause of Sitcoms (every episode ends the way it started).

I hate to burst your bubble, but... Shiny joined in 2005; there's almost no way she was around for the first thread in this forum.... unless there's something I'm unaware of there.  I want to see more Shiny around now too though.... all the pining for Shiny's return is starting to get to me.  Also, I found out something I didn't know... she's from Houston.  I should probably have been paying closer attention to certain things.... hmmm....
fryandlemon

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« Reply #32 on: 05-10-2008 16:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by winna:
I hate to burst your bubble, but... Shiny joined in 2005; there's almost no way she was around for the first thread in this forum.... unless there's something I'm unaware of there.  I want to see more Shiny around now too though.... all the pining for Shiny's return is starting to get to me.  Also, I found out something I didn't know... she's from Houston.  I should probably have been paying closer attention to certain things.... hmmm....
Sorry, I should have specified.  I meant the first official shipper thread  smile
Xanfor

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« Reply #33 on: 05-10-2008 18:06 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:

The only thing that is worser than picture collages is altered song lyrics. I'm not going to get started on those.

*BLASTS FRIDA WITH PURE WEIRD AL POWAH*
Ralph Snart

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« Reply #34 on: 05-10-2008 18:11 »

First off, welcome back Frida. I thought you gave up on Futurama when you sent me an e-mail and never responded to the answer I gave you.

That said, I'm now going into territory that you may feel as an attack on you.  It is not, but it is fueled by the intense gastric reflux and sleep deprivation I'm suffering at this time (remember, I wrok nights and this is my usual sleep-time).

Abot the no pictures:  That was the last post on the last shippers thread.  No explanation, just an order.  People around here tend to be nonconformist, and then there's me, who doesn't do well with taking orders from anybody at any given time (just ask my so-called superior at work).  I do give you credit for being more in-depth with your answer on the first page of this thread.

However, you're not a moderator or an administrator, you don't even contribute to the thread so it's hard for me to take your order seriously.  If you posted maybe once every couple of pages, then your thoughts would have more impact on me.

If you have enough time to lurk, then you have enough time to give an opinion about something to do with the shipper aspect.  You haven't.  For the last four pages of the last ship thread, it was pretty well dominated by Arch, Winna, Waver, Ford Mustang, Frisco, Coldangel and me.  I'd like to say it had a good bit of give and take - my usual anti-Leela stance moderated by me actually saying some nice things about her.  I freely admit that I bought a life experience of mine to give a reason for my anti-Leela feelings.  From that sprung (what I felt) were some good observations from FormMustang, Coldy and Winna.

Now my next nit-pic:  The people who don't like fan fics or fan art.  That's great, you need to go to RDS's messageboard -when you get there, look at how dead it is.  We've lost two fan fic members in the past year because they felt unappreciated and to me, that's a big loss.  While I admit there is some really crappy fan fiction out there, there is some that is downright fantastic and better than some of the better episodes of the series.  A lot of them are better than BBS - which isn't hard in my opinion.

So while I don't have a problem with you personally, Frida, for you to show up after being absent for at least two months and start laying down rules kinda rubs me wrong.  I agree that some people went overboard with some of the shippy pics, at least they were contributing.

I'm not a mod or an Admin - if Kryten tells me to tone down this post or to delete it, I will.  It's not being written in a way to be an attack on you, but to let you know that I feel you need to make some contibutions before you can start given orders of what you want to see and not see in the thread.

Now that's over, when you sent me an e-mail asking about my feelings towards the movement of the Fututama DVD's, I gave you an answer, complete with the comments that a member of RDS had shared with me.  I never heard another thing from you - not a "Thank You' or a "You're full of crap, Ralph".  I honestly felt like you were a plant from RDS to get our opinions and report back to the bosses.  I will say this here:  BWABBs is being released 3 months later than originally planned because some MAJOR editing has been done that required the ENTIRE voice acting cast to have to spend a week in the recording studio this past January.  I have no other details than that to share.

So I hope that you're not going to be angry with me, but I'll survive if you loathe me for saying what I did.  To be involved, you don't have to give page-long explanations like Winna, but a few sentences every now and then would add greatly to the community and also add to your requests/demands on how the threads should be run.

Ralph 'eating a bottle of Tums' Snart
Archonix

Space Pope
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« Reply #35 on: 05-10-2008 19:06 »

 
Quote
my usual anti-Leela stance moderated by me actually saying some nice things about her.

Still in shock over that one.  laff
WAVer

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***
« Reply #36 on: 05-10-2008 19:54 »

When I finally came back from a break, I wanted to post the pics here on this thread, even though PeeL already has a forum for artwork, I wanted to add to what the topic was about, and that was being a shipper.. Maybe I over-did it abit by posting three pics per post, but I felt that was really the only way I could contribute at the time, and that it would help people who normally browse through the thread but not post to feel inspired to post, or if they have their own shippy artwork saved on their PC, to post them! Frida, please continue to post, and to not feel as though your contribution isn't wanted, because I do take the time to read what people have to say  big grin. Like Ralph said, people who personally inspired us like Shiny and TastesLikeFry are no longer here, we all need to stick together and contribute what we got.  smile

Ok, enuf of my ramble.... I'll say it again....
SonicPanther

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« Reply #37 on: 05-10-2008 19:56 »

Damn, now I feel guilty. every post I make in this thread is short, it's either just a joke or a response to a joke. I would contribute to the big discussions, I really would - but you guys post some amazing analysis here, I'm always afraid that if I try to add to that I'll make a fool of myself. I love reading those posts but I don't know if I could make one myself that wouldn't be a complete mess, and I'm afraid to find out.
winna

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« Reply #38 on: 05-10-2008 19:57 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
The people who don't like fan fics or fan art.  That's great, you need to go to RDS's messageboard -when you get there, look at how dead it is.  We've lost two fan fic members in the past year because they felt unappreciated and to me, that's a big loss.

I agree whole heartedly.... It's important to encourage the creativity because it helps the community thrive. I don't like all fanart... I don't read fanfiction.... and I really have a problem with sub-par websites; but when I see something I really like, every once in awhile I just have to let out how I feel... even when I'm not satisfied I know some people are just starting their craft... and they have their own styles... I've been known to let them know that their efforts are appreciated, but they need to work on this or that.

I really like good fanart... if I haven't stated that enough in the past 2 days... not every style hits my pallette the same, but that's ok.... I used to be really into the Futurama websites back in the day (not shiny's day... some years before that).  I remember a lot of people and sites that are gone now, and I just loved a good site with a fresh layout.  Eventually, I helped out on one of them, and I helped maintain another... I've grown lazy, but I used to hitup people in the website forum who were introducing their new site.... A lot of times it was an ugly frontpage affair... But I'd tell them they needed more content... something more professional looking.... and every once in awhile, someone would unveil something new that looked clean.  I even have a few of those old sites on my harddrive...  roll eyes

Anyways, I've watched a lot of people come and go over the years... and it's hard to see talented people go... Luckily new people fill their places... Some aspire to be like their previous generation, but they evolve in their own way and go on to create their own greatness.  If you're one of those people who creates, I appreciate you, even if I haven't said it lately.
winna

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« Reply #39 on: 05-10-2008 20:02 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by SonicPanther:
Damn, now I feel guilty. every post I make in this thread is short, it's either just a joke or a response to a joke. I would contribute to the big discussions, I really would - but you guys post some amazing analysis here, I'm always afraid that if I try to add to that I'll make a fool of myself. I love reading those posts but I don't know if I could make one myself that wouldn't be a complete mess, and I'm afraid to find out.

I type too much... but sometimes something succinct fits a little bit better.  Plus, who would want to read my long winded posts anyways? I only read them sometimes...  roll eyes

Please give your input SonicPanther, you're a person and relatively well tuned one from what I can tell. Don't worry about looking like a fool... I'll pick up the slack if need be.  wink

?..when did you change your avatar?
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