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Bendersfan1221

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« Reply #640 on: 05-02-2008 06:21 »
« Last Edit on: 05-02-2008 06:21 »

Wow thoes pictures are amazing. Too bad his had his art taken down.

TOTPD- No image right now
Ralph Snart

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« Reply #641 on: 05-02-2008 09:09 »

I don't have many of The Voices pieces of art.  I'm willing to share what I have. 

Once again, he just disappeared - he hasn't even looked at his DA account in over 3 years.

I hope that he's OK and maybe lurking.   



hobbitboy

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« Reply #642 on: 05-02-2008 09:55 »
« Last Edit on: 05-02-2008 09:55 »

    Do the Leela/Fry shippers (or anyone else for that matter) believe that Fry's gesture of moving some stars around to spell out his feelings for Leela would actually be enough to convince her to marry him (as per the events of
Time Keeps on Slipping)?

Especially when...
  • using the gravity pump to move stars doesn't seem as difficult as, say, reversing a car when it is towing a trailer.
  • Leela has already responded unfavorably to attempts that arise from ulterior motives
Or is it that, inspite of her "I'm impressed by the man, not his message"* statement, the sort of romantic gestures which really move Leela are big & showy ones with no practical benefit? It seems that any romantic component in Fry's actions is lost when non-showyness or practicality are involved (cf the oxygen thing in Love and Rocket and his bed-side vigil in The Sting).

* For some reason I keep imagining the word 'package' in place of 'message'. Spooky.
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"I believe we were all glad to leave New Zealand. It is not a pleasant place." Charles Darwin
winna

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« Reply #643 on: 05-02-2008 09:56 »

I don't remember that one... but the Bender one on his DA page had another version... done in pencil I think.... I prefer'ed the earlier version.... I think Bender was picking up Fry... and there was a color version too.

I hope Tom is alright too... I think he may have had some internal problems he had to resolve...

I might have some of his stuff among other things on my computer somewhere... but I'd have to search extensively through everything to find it.
winna

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« Reply #644 on: 05-02-2008 10:10 »

I honestly believe that is would be enough to convince Leela to marry him hobbitboy.  He actually exerted effort in learning how to do that, for her.

On top of that, it's the symbolism represented by the gesture which makes it so worthwhile, not the showiness of it itself.  In this case.... he moved the stars for her.

I don't think Fry's actions are lost on Leela as you say... especially concerning the two examples you brought up (Love & Rocket, The Sting).  The symbolism represented by those is similar to moving the stars as well... not just the actions themselves, but all the things that represent and mean. 

The real problem here aren't the people we're talking about; it's one that Fry stated in an earlier episode (When Aliens Attack).  I hate to detract our conversation by pointing out that Futurama is a television sitcom, but considering Fry already did in a roundabout metaphorical matter, I think it's applicable.  It will never matter what Fry does... every episode must resolve to a point where everything is the same as when the episode started.  If it weren't for this universal law of physics, I'm sure Leela would be with Fry.

Leela is very emotional and caring, she would've noticed at some point given all of these things that Fry, despite his flaws, appeals to these things that Leela believes are important.

Other romantic things Fry did for Leela: helping her find her parents, writing an entire opera dedicated to her.
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« Reply #645 on: 05-02-2008 10:21 »

 
Quote
I hope Tom is alright too... I think he may have had some internal problems he had to resolve...

I've contacted FemJesse a couple of times over the past couple of years (she has since let that e-mail addy die).  Of course she's busy looking forward to getting her career going, but she and TV had been in contact at one point.  I asked her if she had heard from him or if she knew if he was Okay.  All she gave me was a terse, "No Comment", so I don't know if she was being a friend and giving him space that he needed or anything else.  I've learned to quit reading between the lines - I am hopelessly myopic and never get it right.

Anyway, I left Jess a note on her DA account when her pet cat died (she placed a missive how much it hurt to lose her pet of 16 years).  She hasn't responded to it but at least I know she's still out there, working her way through life.
km73

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« Reply #646 on: 05-02-2008 10:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by winna:
 Other romantic things Fry did for Leela: helping her find her parents, writing an entire opera dedicated to her.

Helping her not kill her parents...

It's so odd to see winna actually talking about Futurama.   smile
Archonix

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« Reply #647 on: 05-02-2008 10:47 »
« Last Edit on: 05-02-2008 10:47 »

The complaint about "big showy gestures"... without wanting to offend the women here, I've generally found that romance is pretty much all about big showy gestures. It's an attempt to demonstrate that you have the time, energy and resources to do things that would at any other time seem pointless. A romantic gesture is romantic largely because it's useless, or huge and showy. Like the time my wife wrote an entire short story just for me, which I doubt would be publishable without a little editing (changing names and such to protect the guilty). The computer I built for her isn't romantic, just practical, though it did get... *ahem* anyway, romance is romance because it's out of the ordinary. It's a special effort to do something just for the person you're pursuing. It's the difference between buying an intricate ornament and carving your own.
WAVer

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« Reply #648 on: 05-02-2008 17:22 »

These types of discussions have been going on for such a long time, and I used to be a big part of it, but not much anymore. I completely agree with Ralph Snart's comment about how BBS seems to completely disregards anything that may had happened between Leela & Fry in season 4. I think I'm more of a bigger Leela&Fry shipper than I am of anything else that has to do with Futurama. That's just how I am. Therefore, I personally reject BBS as for what it is. Nevertheless, I remember viewing a thread,or story, about a year ago that might of been on Peelified, or another fansite (( I really don't remember  frown )) that touched base on each of the four movies that were due to come out. So far, the first two movies were dead-on accurate about what the story was going to be about, when I read this... So accordingly, in the fourth movie, I remember reading...
As far as their relationship now, I perfer reading fanfics and I get more enjoyment from those. Please keep in mind that this is my viewpoint, for the most part.
Frisco17

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« Reply #649 on: 05-02-2008 21:51 »

Ah the long winded discussions, the deep philosophical observations. Just like the good old days. I hope Coldy and Xanfor show up to enjoy this before it runs itself out again.
coldangel

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« Reply #650 on: 05-02-2008 22:01 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by WAVer:
I perfer reading fanfics and I get more enjoyment from those.

If I might be so arrogant as to quote myself:

When people such as we become attached to fictional worlds, our naturally obsessive leanings cause us to form a kind of dependancy on them, as with a drug, and when that happens they will expand to fill all the nooks and crannies of life, and the line between what is real and what is fantasy becomes blurred.

So, of course, a private reality becomes a difficult thing to walk away from. Even after the credits roll, we geeks set about filling the empty time between episodes or the new season, constantly expanding and continuing this mental realm for our own amusement. This we call fan-fiction; the ultimate crystalization of addiction to something not real.

It's odd that more and more, fans are becoming attached to their own interpretations of source materials that those unofficial non-canon creations may actually surpass the original in terms of audience satisfaction. We're catering fantasy to suit our own individual desires. I wonder if perhaps we should call that post-postmodernism.
Frisco17

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« Reply #651 on: 05-02-2008 22:17 »

As if on cue.
FordMustang

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« Reply #652 on: 05-03-2008 00:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
@ FordMustang:

Once again, I must state that part of my undying hatred towards Benders Big Score has to do with totally ignoring the growth of Fry and Leela during season 4.  The gist of BBS was that Fry "learned" the lesson that if he really loved Leela, he would love her enough to let her go.  Sorry, it had already been done. His love for her was to the point that he sacrified his health and almost his life twice during season 4.  You don't get more unselfish than that.

I came on the scene after FemJesse, but I hold her up as one of the Great Ones the rest of us should have as an example.  I hope all is going well with her in her personal life and she will get the accolades she deserves in the art community.  She enriched the Futurama community with her stuff.

And regarding the BBS comments about Fry and Leela I am with you all the way- Fry has proven himself time and again and has to keep proving himself.  I did not get it myself and wanted to see Leela show some change, too.   BBS did not show Leela looking as good as I had hoped.   I hope it change down the road to show Leela is also willing to change for Fry, too.  Wishful thinking= the next movie anyway may have Fry moving on past Leela- hopefully that does bother her a bit, but I fear it will not...
WAVer

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« Reply #653 on: 05-03-2008 00:41 »
« Last Edit on: 05-03-2008 00:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
 If I might be so arrogant as to quote myself:

When people such as we become attached to fictional worlds, our naturally obsessive leanings cause us to form a kind of dependancy on them, as with a drug, and when that happens they will expand to fill all the nooks and crannies of life, and the line between what is real and what is fantasy becomes blurred.

So, of course, a private reality becomes a difficult thing to walk away from. Even after the credits roll, we geeks set about filling the empty time between episodes or the new season, constantly expanding and continuing this mental realm for our own amusement. This we call fan-fiction; the ultimate crystalization of addiction to something not real.

It's odd that more and more, fans are becoming attached to their own interpretations of source materials that those unofficial non-canon creations may actually surpass the original in terms of audience satisfaction. We're catering fantasy to suit our own individual desires. I wonder if perhaps we should call that post-postmodernism.

ColdAngel! What's up, man! It's great seeing you still hangin around with the rest of us   big grin
On top of what you said, I agree with every word, so in conclusion, I suppose that makes me odd, but you know, I'm happy being that way. I enjoy futurama fanfics, not because in the end, Fry and Leela end up happily ever after.., but because I have always been one that enjoyed a good story, or storyline, that is very deep, and unpredictable. I will admit, though, that I perfer fanfics that are geared torwards Fry & Leela being together, but that doesn't stop me from reading fanfics that aren't about that. Nevertheless, your fanfics you made have been one of the best I've ever read, and I'll always appreciate the work you put forth to make those come to life, and not just because The Real Decoy happened to be the first one I had ever read.   laff I've come to read many more fanfics regardless.

And even after all I've said above, I'm still and will always be a fan of the futurama series, as well as the movie BBS, and the ones that are to follow.
WAVer

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« Reply #654 on: 05-03-2008 00:46 »
« Last Edit on: 05-03-2008 00:46 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by FordMustang: And regarding the BBS comments about Fry and Leela I am with you all the way- Fry has proven himself time and again and has to keep proving himself.  I did not get it myself and wanted to see Leela show some change, too.   BBS did not show Leela looking as good as I had hoped.   I hope it change down the road to show Leela is also willing to change for Fry, too.  Wishful thinking= the next movie anyway may have Fry moving on past Leela- hopefully that does bother her a bit, but I fear it will not...

Ahem....

I just want to clearify exactly my point.. After heavy investigations, and placing camera's in inconspicuous places, I found out why Leela always gave Fry the cold shoulder. Here, in the following screenshot...
coldangel

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« Reply #655 on: 05-03-2008 01:00 »

The conclusion of BBS looked like the turning-point for Leela when she realized that Lars was Fry, in that she didn't say "eew, gross!"

So yeah, I think we'll see some change.
winna

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« Reply #656 on: 05-03-2008 05:57 »

That's what they wanted it to be, and I understand what it was meant to be.  Had it been any other story with any other characters, it would have worked out very well.  However, given the backstory already built in Futurama, this chapter felt very artificial to me.  It wasn't just the Fry & Leela thing, there were other things that bothered me, but that in particular was injected into the series and I can't suspend disbelief for long enough to accept it as being correct... call it a mental block of some sort.

As I already stated, the problem with this story is one that can't easily be resolved.  As a television series, the story isn't complete... it's make stuff up as you go.  The creators had a beginning set in concrete, and they had a lot of ideas for the end (ideas that got rushed out in season 4), but the story itself wasn't written out so that every detail wrapped itself together perfectly.  Because of this, Fry & Leela can't be together... that is part of the end of the story.  You can either go with one thing, Leela & Fry are together, or new episodes.... but you really can't have both.

It's not just true about television either... it's the stories of our everyday lives and how we perceive them.  What happens after you finish school?  Or retire?  Finish that awesome vacation?  Even when death scoops you away?  That story ends... but we go on... we go on and write more stories on the pages of our everyday lives.  Good stories are succinct... live, however, becomes mundane with trivial details and a slow plot.

--------------------------------------------------

I'm not trying to offend all the fan-fictionists and fan-fiction readers out there, but I would like to expound upon my own perception of fan-fiction.  First off, I don't read fan-fiction... I may have read one or two, but it's not my thing, and you can ignore everything beyond on this point if you like.  I may have read a few in the past, just to see what it's like... but I stereotype fanfiction. 

Second, there are a lot of people out there who would say fan-fiction is rubbish, and that's my general perception of it (I'm really not trying to be offensive).  It is a stereotype, and I'm sure there actually are some talented writers out there making something good... but the stereotype is there for a reason; most fan-fiction probably isn't very good story-telling.  It's made by people who are obsessed with a given piece and want more... usually people who have little skill in writing to begin with, but they want to live out their fantasy on paper.  In that facet, I agree with coldangel in his earlier comment, but I don't read fan-fiction to keep that fictional world alive.  I've imagined what the characters in Futurama are like, imagined how they would be interacting with me, interacting with eachother... I've imagined what I want them to be like too.  However, I feel that reading somebody else's perceptions would be detracting from the real material.  I understand the motives behind having a fan-fiction community, possibly all too well.  I certainly couldn't attack someone for trying to immerse themselves in these places... the imaginary can be more powerful than the real afterall.

Thirdly, I feel that if there are good and/or great stories that are fanfiction out there that they should be their own stories.  If they are really that good, than they should be able to stand alone with their own symbols, conclusions, and points.  But not all of them are meant to be stories like these.  Some fanfiction is written like an episode, it's like another part of the show... and I suppose this leads me to my last point.

I don't read very often.  That's not completely true... I read the internet all the time, I read magazines occassionally... and I even read labels and photocopied little educational sheets.  But... I don't read stories often anymore.  It never seems I have time, so instead I immerse myself in those things through my own thoughts.  Sitting in dark places alone, I think... and if I need that place again... I pick up those emotions, feelings, and thoughts, then I inhale and sit content.  I could never put these thoughts down in words, and I couldn't be able to get the same thing out of them from derived words.  Strangely enough, I do prefer fanart.  I can glance at a picture and it encompasses a lot of those things in its instantaneous being.  I suppose it takes me more effort to read than passively see.. and watch.  Then I do the heavy stuff while I'm thinking... it's probably because I have an odd relationship with time; we don't get along very well, but we acknowledge eachother's existence.

If you read all that, you may be wondering why I bothered to write it.  It could be I didn't have a reason... I was just musing out loud.  It could be that I'm currently in the emotional state after having woken up from a particularly disturbing fantasy.  I think I wrote it to give some insight as to why someone might not like fan-fiction... as I said before, I wasn't trying to be offensive; some of you may have easily become offended by it and I won't blame you for it, but think about it this way:  Even though I may have offended you, I also validated your preferred form of expression and interpretation.  With that I heartily encourage each of you to do as you like, and even though I probably won't start reading/writing fan-fiction myself, I'll know that you all are enjoying yourselves whilst doing it for me.  smile

==================================================

@km73.  I understand it may seem odd to see me in these sections of the board, but I used to spend a lot of time here, and I still continue to lurk.  I can't always say what I mean in a comprehensible manner (see the above stuff I wrote), so oftentimes I choose not to disturb the waters choosing instead to say nothing at all.  I've actually thought about Futurama a lot over the years, and as with many others, having more conversations would become repetitive.  I still talk about it though, with my close friends, talking about references and analyzing character actions... just not here as often.  I'm proud to call myself a #fc'er, but many people see that place as a bad thing.  I'm sure if you know of #fc, you may have come across the unwritten rule of no Futurama-talk.  I've been there longer than most of the people that embrace that rule, and even before it became a rule.  It isn't a rule that I abide, and I'm usually willing to talk about anything, including Futurama, in there.  I guess that's the thing for most people though, even myself to a large degree.  Futurama isn't just a show for many of us anymore... I hardly watch it anymore, cept for cold lonely nights, but it's become more than that.  It's a piece of our lives and all the things with it.  This community, in particular for me is more than just a Futurama community.  Maybe this is unhealthy, absurd, stupid, or insane, but I consider this place like a home.  I regard the people that reside in this place as friends and family.  I started watching Futurama during a particular period of my adolescence, a period when my family was tearing apart... for me, television was an escape, and in later years Futurama became, amongst other things, a timepiece (I watched most of the episodes as they aired) for me to look back on my life.  So if I seem distanced from the more fanish type community, it's because I moved along past that along time ago.  Futurama doesn't mean any less to me than anyone else because of this; I would argue that it means more to me because of this progression, something that I can't always articulate in discussions or experience through playing trivia games.
coldangel

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« Reply #657 on: 05-03-2008 06:44 »

And that's why they call him winna.
Archonix

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« Reply #658 on: 05-03-2008 09:00 »

You're right, of course, the majority of fanfiction is shit. A quick glance at fanfiction.net would prove that...  smile

This... Thirdly, I feel that if there are good and/or great stories that are fanfiction out there that they should be their own stories.

Is probably the only thing I don't agree with. A large part of what fanfiction is, is an attempt to explore the characters that the writer has obviously become enamoured with. Crafting an original world with original characters is incredibly satisfying but sometimes you want to get into the head of a character you already know about, perhaps just to see if you can really do it, or to play, or to satisfy that itch (or, if you're a crap writer, to engage in some sort of bizarre wish-fulfilment, as so many Lord of the Rings "highschool" fanfics can attest). A story that's good with one set of characters won't be good with another set of characters; I couldn't take the Futurama cast and simply drop them into a 19th century romance story - unless it was an intentional satire - and, in the obverse, I couldn't take those 19th century characters and shoehorn them into the Futurama world. Again, unless it was a satire...

There are stories written that cannot stand on their own because they make assumptions about the knowledge of the characters that an original fiction would not necessarily make. You can just drop into the Futurama world and start writing without having to worry about inventing characters, or about ther people understanding their origins. They're already there. What matters is being able to stick to that and make it believably part of the world, even if you go wildly off on a tangent. That's what writers love to do more than anything. Write stuff.

So that means there are two sorts of writers. There are the writers who see this as a way to live out wish fulfilment fantasies (and I'd say about half of shippers, most "new character turns up out of the blue" stories and all self-inserts, high-school or "they visit my place of work/school/hom town/favourite fandom" stories would fit in that definition) and there are writers who see it as a means to explore avenues that have been hinted at but not touched by the creators of the show, or some of the more outlandish scenarios, more gritty realisms or more epic stories that just can't fit into the 30 minute three act episodic format of the show. It's less about immersion in that realm than about attempting to explore the characters themselves, to see what makes them tick. When I write I don't act or feel as f I'm in the world - or, to put it another way, I'm no more emotionally invested in the characters than I would be in the ones I create myself. I write because I want to examine how a character might react in particular situations and I show it to others so I can see if I was right. If enough people say "that was in character", f they enjoy what I've written, then I know I've got a good handle on them - which means I've got a better chance of consistent characterisation in general, which means I'm a better writer than I was before I started. That's my motivation. I can't speak for others but I can guess about them, and I've alrady laid out what is my understanding of this whole world. Most fanfiction is shite, most fanfiction authors should really be nowhere near what they're writing but, then, you could say the same about television, the music industry, most authors and... well the list goes on really. In my mind fanfiction is no different to tie-in novelisations or something like that, except it's not as well paid.  smile

But, all my opinion. Not everyone likes the concept of fanfiction - even if it is good writing.
coldangel

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« Reply #659 on: 05-03-2008 10:56 »

Related plug:

Blame it on the Brain is a fanfic that's basically self-referencing, acknowledging itself to be a fanfic, acknowledging Futurama to be a television show, and offering some symbolic commentary on the nature of fandom itself. (All while still maintaining a coherent story in-universe, mind you).

I just thought I'd throw that out there. By my decree: things that criticize themselves are legitimate.
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« Reply #660 on: 05-03-2008 11:09 »
« Last Edit on: 05-03-2008 11:09 »

Maybe not the right place to put this, but I will:

I identify with Fry - a lot.  I had a father with a militiary mindset who never gave me a kind or encouraging word - he said it was to make me tougher.  I had a sister who sided with my dad to get his attention and he treated her like a little princess.  The one good thing I had was my mother, a true Christian woman who tried her best to shelter me from the injustices of my childhood.

When I graduated high school, I was trained to be a wrestler - to me it was a way of being larger than life and at least in the locker room I had a few friends.  While I was being trained by Mae and Moolah, she had a couple of women my age they were training.  I will say that one of them was Randi Whitman, a woman who is still one of my closet friends to this day.  The other I won't name, but she has been a name on the wrestling circuit in the past - we'll use Wendy at the point.  I adored her.  She was perfect in every way in my eyes.  She knew this and she used it to make me her chump.  She had the self-confidence that I could only dream of having.  She could say anything and I'd believe it.  She was "Leela" to me.

The way I paid for my training was mow the yard, trim the plants, clean the pool and other things, along with teaching Randi 3 hours a night so she could get her GED - Moolah wouldn't let her get a wrestling license until she had at least a High School education.   One night I had a match curtain-jerking at the old Columbia Township, then Randi and I had closed the bars in Columbia, SC (partying with Ric Flair that night), Randi told me something she had to and she feared that it would ruin our friendship.  She told me how much a laughing stock I was to the other members of the school because I was such a chump for the woman I yearned for.  She would give me a few scraps of what she called "kindness" and watch me be her chump.  Randi said it was infuriating to see me treated in such a way.

I thought that I was pretty tough but that absolutely destroyed any idea of self-worth I had.  I shouldn't have been so blind, I had good friends who treated me fairly, but I didn't see it at the time.

So each time I saw Wendy it felt like a knife being turned in my guts, but I soldiered on - moving to Georgia then Flordia so I wouldn't be on the same circuit as her and have to see her.

Randi and I stayed friends - when she became the head jammer for the L.A. T-Birds, I flew to LA just so I could see her in action.  She told me later that she could tell I was getting over Wendy but she didn't want to bring her name up.

Years went by - I got injured, had to leave the business, got married, went to college, wife died in her sleep, life goes on shit.

Then one night over a decade later I got a call at some obscene early hour in the morning - it was Wendy, drunk as hell and crying.  She had been blackballed in wrestling, Moolah told her to get lost, her 3rd marriage was falling apart, etc.  Then she started telling me how much she missed me, how kind I had been to her, etc.

Instead of me saying, "Oh yeah, welcome back.", a certain coldness came over me - a loathing of another human being that can't be put in words.  This woman treated me like shit and enjoyed it.  When her life was falling apart, she wanted good ol' Ralph to come back and stroke her ego.

Instead of getting her drunken ego stroked, she got a verbal blasting from me.  When I hung the phone up, I felt like a weight had been taken away from my soul.  Since that day, I have taken the world on my terms, often with a waving middle finger and a "Go-To-Hell" being my final statement. 

The final break with Wendy made me the short-tempered person I've become.  Every woman I dated afterwards would be told up front - "No fucking games.  If I even think you're playing a game with me, I'll dump your ass."  I proved it to a few women.  Every relationship I went into afterwards I made sure I treated the woman with repsect, but I demanded the exact same respect be shown to me.

So the way that Leela is portrayed, she increasingly looks like Wendy.  As such, my loathing of her character increases.  She doesn't respect Fry for anything but he's good for an ego-boost when she's feeling down and a person she can go drinking with and not be drinking alone.

Her attitude towards him is seen perfectly in The Cyberhouse Rules shen she tells Fry, to his face, "I want to date somebody that everybody else doesn't think is crummy.  I deserve that."

To Fry's face she tells him that he's crummy.  Way to go, Leela.  Here's a butcher knife to further emasculate Fry.  Leela: Stand there Fry and let me neuter you.

Fry would be much, much better off without Leela in his life in any way.  If that happened, then the first time Leela had some discord in her life, she would want her little red-headed ego-stoker back.  I would love to see Fry tell Leela to "Fuck off and die." at that point.

Imagine getting worked up over a cartoon character - but other than being competant, Leela brings very little to the table.  Suspicious, status-seeking, insecure - she reminds me of every loser girlfriend I've had and thankfully got rid of.

This has been a post-shift-from-hell post by Ralph
winna

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« Reply #661 on: 05-03-2008 12:23 »

I'd agree with you, but I don't think Leela is quite that extreme.  She's been known to care for Fry and do things for him, not just because he's her chump.    They started off as friends, and they were clearly out to date other people, but you are right, she doesn't treat him right a lot of the time... the real problem there is the infatuation.  When it's one sided, as it is with Fry, it can't possibly be good for the relationship.  I've seen it before myself, one person infatuated with the other, and the other one doesn't see it that way.... Once it's that way, I don't think anything could repair it.  You just can't get over being superior to someone in that way.

You suggested the CyberHouse Rules, but I'd suggest that the Why of Fry is a better example of Leela treating Fry like shit.  Oh I'm glad you're here Fry.... Can you go take Nibbler for a walk and clean up his shit?

At some level, her character does have potential though, and they could be a perfect couple.  Universe 1 demonstrated that.

Lastly, it being a tv show, I think the characters change a lot and fill different roles at different times.  Sometimes Leela is a bitch as you've pointed out, and at other times, she's the right woman.

I was always a supporter of Amy & Fry anyways... if he hadn't have pulled out his dick moves in Put your Head on my Shoulders, I'd say they'd be more compatible than anybody on the show.
Archonix

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« Reply #662 on: 05-03-2008 12:55 »

Funny, I've been leaning that way a lot myself, recently...
Officer 1BDI

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« Reply #663 on: 05-03-2008 13:10 »

Yes, Archonix.  Come to the darkside.  *cackles*

 
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I was always a supporter of Amy & Fry anyways... if he hadn't have pulled out his dick moves in Put your Head on my Shoulders, I'd say they'd be more compatible than anybody on the show.

That always bugged me.  I've tried to justify it in the past with his crush on Leela, but I cannot ignore that Fry seemed to dump Amy because she was getting too close for comfort, and in light of that I can't really blame Leela for not taking him up on his advances.
km73

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« Reply #664 on: 05-03-2008 13:12 »

It's true that she acted fairly intolerably toward Fry in The Why of Fry, and to a great extent with Adlai as well. But overall I think there are far more instances in the show of them being excellent friends, than there are of her treating him like a doormat.

 
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So that means there are two sorts of writers. There are the writers who see this as a way to live out wish fulfilment fantasies (and I'd say about half of shippers, most "new character turns up out of the blue" stories and all self-inserts, high-school or "they visit my place of work/school/hom town/favourite fandom" stories would fit in that definition) and there are writers who see it as a means to explore avenues that have been hinted at but not touched by the creators of the show, or some of the more outlandish scenarios, more gritty realisms or more epic stories that just can't fit into the 30 minute three act episodic format of the show. 

I pretty much agree with this. From what I've seen.

But the first definition is facilitated by the fact that there are also wholly voracious fanfic readers, I suppose, who'll consume just about anything; and then those of us who are more... selective or discerning.

And, @winna: oh, I know you do post in on-topic occasionally; I suppose I should have clarified it by saying "in this thread". I've also seen before where you've said PEEL is like a home or family to you, and I certainly never meant to imply that Futurama wasn't important to you or whatever. Things do tend to get rehashed in this thread.
Just a bit.
Archonix

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« Reply #665 on: 05-03-2008 14:08 »

 
Quote
Fry seemed to dump Amy because she was getting too close for comfort, and in light of that I can't really blame Leela for not taking him up on his advances.

That strengthens the idea I've had that they're both emotionally stunted (or even emotional retards judging by their behaviour in some episodes) and both have huge intimacy issues. I'm not so eager to lay all the blame on Leela (or Fry) but more on their circumstances.

Lets look at it this way. On the one hand you h ave Fry, who had a fairly crummy upbringing. He was rejected by his parents and always seen as the second best. He's absorbed the idea that the people you love will ultimately reject you. Leela's behaviour obviously re-inforces this, BUT the fact of the matter is, when he thought Amy was starting to "love" him, or there was a bond developing, he rejected her first in order to avoid being rejected himself.

There is no loving bond yet between Fry and Leela so he feels safe to pursue it. How would he react if that bond started to really appear? It seems to have appeared at the end of BBS, yet in the previews for the next film he's apparently dating someone else. REJECTION! This is where Ralph will cheer  wink but I don't think it's necessarily  a positive moment. That said we can't judge until we've seen what's going on...

Leela has intimacy issues brought on by the lack of parental figures in her life. Her only role models have been bureaucrats and bullies. She's also suffered with rejection, but a more profound sense of it, believing that she was abandoned by her parents and completely alone. In that environment you have to get tough or, as the song goes, die. All of her relationships have apparently been superficial, except for Sean, the saxophonist who played naked on her couch - and who also rejected her by carrying on with another woman. The superficiality is brought on by a fear of rejection. The one apparently truly intimate relationship she's revealed to us ended in her rejection, reinforcing her idea that everyone will ultimately reject and abandon her.

Now I know people will point out that her parent returned very early in season four but that doesn't really fix much. She's had *mumblymumble*something years of living with the feeling of rejection. That isn't something that gets fixed overnight, or in a year, or even a decade. In fact it can often never be truly repaired. Rejection by your parents is a fundamental thing, it completely destroys you, and you try to do anything to prevent that rejection occurring again. That includes putting on a pretty face (not easy when you have an eye the size of a fist), and trying to find "safe" love interests - the ones least likely to form a powerful, intimate bond with you. Also, ironically, the ones most likely to reject you for someone prettier...

In short, they're both broken people. You can't blame a pot for being broken. Or a kettle.
Tornadoboy

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« Reply #666 on: 05-03-2008 15:52 »
« Last Edit on: 05-03-2008 15:52 »

 
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So that means there are two sorts of writers. There are the writers who see this as a way to live out wish fulfilment fantasies (and I'd say about half of shippers, most "new character turns up out of the blue" stories and all self-inserts, high-school or "they visit my place of work/school/hom town/favourite fandom" stories would fit in that definition) and there are writers who see it as a means to explore avenues that have been hinted at but not touched by the creators of the show, or some of the more outlandish scenarios, more gritty realisms or more epic stories that just can't fit into the 30 minute three act episodic format of the show.

I'm jumping on the agreement bandwagon, too. And while I admit that I'm guilty of the former (with my current project "The Suck" ), I hope to combine it with the latter to create something truly dynamic and engaging as opposed to creating something that only serves as fanfictional masturbation.  laff

To actually make this post somewhat worthwhile:

 
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Lastly, it being a tv show, I think the characters change a lot and fill different roles at different times. Sometimes Leela is a bitch as you've pointed out, and at other times, she's the right woman.


I think these sort of inconsistencies are a real piss-take, but I guess you can either blame it on the inconsistencies of the different writers, or glaze over it by chalking it up to the characters themselves just being moody. I'm not sure I like either.
winna

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« Reply #667 on: 05-03-2008 20:26 »

I suppose in a way, real people do it too... Overtime, or in different contexts and environments.  It's just hard to tell.
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« Reply #668 on: 05-03-2008 20:54 »

Yeah, well... if Leela were a real person I'd say she'd be a perfect candidate for a number of mental illnesses. Depression, Borderline personality disorder (causation in the disorder is a history of childhood trauma, with women three times more likely to suffer it). There could also be a degree of subconscious self-loathing, or 'autophobia', due to seperation anxiety from a young age and resulting in a relationship equivalent of self-harm.

This would go to explain a lot of her dubious choices and actions.

That being said, she's still the most well-balanced of all the characters.
Frisco17

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« Reply #669 on: 05-03-2008 21:47 »
« Last Edit on: 05-03-2008 21:47 »

 
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Originally posted by coldangel_1:
The conclusion of BBS looked like the turning-point for Leela when she realized that Lars was Fry, in that she didn't say "eew, gross!"

So yeah, I think we'll see some change.

I know I've said this before but I always saw that as one of the main points of BBS.


 
Quote
Originally posted by winna:
I'd agree with you, but I don't think Leela is quite that extreme.

Oh that's nothing. You should have seen him after BBS came out. I was this close to building a fallout shelter.

As far as Leela being a bitch to Fry is concerned, I always saw it as her being less of a bitch than a hypocrite. She is constantly doing something she always tells Fry not to do, which is doing something and not thinking about how it will affect people around you. When she asked Fry to walk Nibbler she probably didn't even think about how it would affect him. I think she was just so amazed that somebody like the mayor's aid would go out with her that she wasn't thinking. You have to remember that this is the woman who scares most men away with her eye or abilty to "kill them with a flick of my wrist."

The most important thing to remember in my opinion is that at the end of the day all of them are but tools of the writers, forever bound to their whims.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
That being said, she's still the most well-balanced of all the characters.

Very, very ture.

This has been Frisco your long winded ship thingy. Goodnight and Godspeed!

FordMustang

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« Reply #670 on: 05-03-2008 23:37 »

These posts have been amazing!

I really am enjoying all the analysis here.  So many of these have echoed thoughts I have had, so it is good to read that other people think the same way.   

@ RalphSnart:  That is quite an experience you had and thank you for sharing.  That is a tough position you were in. I experienced something similar but not on the same sort of tough scale as you experienced, but I can understand how hard that was for you and how it can affect future perceptions of relationships. It is another way of showing that Futurama characters can often resonate with the experiences we have had in real life, one reason I think we love them so much.  They are not perfect sci fi cliches but decent people who are bungled and botched like most of us They are striving to do the right thing in life but do not always know how to accomplish that and their flaws get in the way. 

As for fan fiction- I like reading what people write.  Some of it is not good, but most of us are not professional writers.  The nice thing is when you do read a fiction that makes you realize that there is some real talent floating out there- the writers really make me perceive something about life in a new way.  That to me is a trademark of science fiction, so even if it is Futurama fan fiction, these authors are still showing they can make some thoughtful sci fi.  I don't think authors should rewrite their Futurama fan fiction with new characters, but I do hope some of them explore the idea of creating stories in their own worlds down the road.  The fan fiction shows they have the potential for it, and I think it may even give them the practice they need for jumping into their own fiction.  There are several well known science fiction/fantasy artists out there who acknowledge they wrote fan fiction and filk songs.  It whet their appetite to  try creating their own worlds and stories in science fiction and fantasy.  I doubt I will write Futurama(or any) fan fiction.  I have always been too shy for that, though I do art and I love seeing what other people have written and drawn
 

any1else

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« Reply #671 on: 05-04-2008 04:04 »

This page has so many long posts. I don't normally bother reading long posts properly but I feel like it now. Possibly because I haven't had time to myself all week and it's nice to put your mind to something outside of work.

Winna: I find it odd not to like  fanfiction in that the writers of the show are just people like you and me - what is the difference?
 
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I feel that reading somebody else's perceptions would be detracting from the real material.
More than one person has input in writing episodes of Futurama, therefore there can be no one way for a character to be at all. Everything is always going to be up to an individual's interpretation. Hell, that's why everyone is always finding something in common with practically every character - they all resonated from someone's experiences. Anybody with a knack for creativity can play around with the characters/setting and make something that contributes to the 'original'.

 
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Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
To Fry's face she tells him that he's crummy. Way to go, Leela.
I always cringe when Leela does something like that and wonder how Fry can keep putting up with it. But the combination of knowing some of the possible reasons for her actions and some of the things she says or does for/with Fry at different times are what keep me being a shipper. Everybody has flaws. If we always concentrated on them nobody would ever be friends/lovers/pets of anybody else.
winna

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« Reply #672 on: 05-04-2008 05:07 »

Fry is an unreasonable bafoon created mostly for our amusement.  His rationalization is skewed in the Leela department, but at the same time he reflects the way real people do tend to act.

I'm well aware of how Ralph erupted at BBS.  I had some of the same problems with the movie as he did, although I didn't verbalize them; it was just nice to have the show back, even if it was a little sub-par.  Sub-par Futurama is arguably better than half of what is on television now.

As for fan-fiction.... I'm an unreasonable person.  I watched the episodes when they came on and they became canon..  It could have been part of the atmosphere, the images intertwined with the story, but they seem more real to me than something written down.  Maybe I'm not a hardcore enough fan, but I probably wouldn't read a novel about Futurama either.  So basically I'm an elitist bastard, and Futurama fan-fiction is sub-par to the show itself to me...... that's even after I hosted a single fan-fiction on my site.... I'd have probably put more on there because I appreciate the community, but I'm lazy..
Archonix

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« Reply #673 on: 05-04-2008 05:12 »

 
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I'm an unreasonable person.

Nah. Not everyone can like everything.  smile
winna

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« Reply #674 on: 05-04-2008 05:48 »

The unreasonableness isn't that I don't like it... it's the reasons (ie they don't seem to make sense) I'm not willing to submerge myself in that culture.
Archonix

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« Reply #675 on: 05-04-2008 06:22 »

Actually I thought they were very good reasons.
km73

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« Reply #676 on: 05-04-2008 08:57 »
« Last Edit on: 05-04-2008 08:57 »

*shrugs* I probably would've never started reading fanfiction if I hadn't fortuitously stumbled across JBERGES and Tongue Luck last May/June, about a year ago now. I'm generally more of a fan of 19th and 20th century novels and poetry myself, but having discovered the Hitchhiker's Guide books in my high school library at 16, and then later watching Red Dwarf and MST3K, and finally from March 2006 Futurama, I also suddenly "realized" that I was a fan of comical sci-fi, somehow. (It actually took me quite a while to come to this realization). Anyway, when I found myself rolling with laughter at things two random internet amateurs had written, I knew it could be some great stuff.

 
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Sub-par Futurama is arguably better than half of what is on television now.

Half? I'd say more like at least 98.7%.
But that's just my opinion.

 
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I couldn't take the Futurama cast and simply drop them into a 19th century romance story - unless it was an intentional satire - and, in the obverse, I couldn't take those 19th century characters and shoehorn them into the Futurama world. Again, unless it was a satire...

I see some awesome satirical potential there... but of course it would have to be handled very carefully... Damn, I wanna read something like that now.
coldangel

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« Reply #677 on: 05-04-2008 09:24 »

Hey! I dropped Fry and Leela into Hound of the Baskervilles, Of Mice & Men, Goldfinger, and a Star Trek fanfic. All using the same literary device used in 'The Day the Earth Stood Stupid'.
Giant floating brains are handy like that.
km73

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« Reply #678 on: 05-04-2008 09:39 »

  big grin  Do you know, as soon as I posted that I knew you were going to say that. Yes, you did, but unfortunately the only one of those I've read is Hound. I remember though, it made me totally want to read OMaM. Only Steinbeck I've read is The Pearl.
But I think my favorite part of BIOTB had to be the outstanding what-is-reality chapter with the 'toil and grime' bit.
And TDTESS was a great episode.
Tornadoboy

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« Reply #679 on: 05-04-2008 10:26 »

 
Quote
   big grin  Do you know, as soon as I posted that I knew you were going to say that. Yes, you did, but unfortunately the only one of those I've read is Hound. I remember though, it made me totally want to read OMaM. Only Steinbeck I've read is The Pearl.
But I think my favorite part of BIOTB had to be the outstanding what-is-reality chapter with the 'toil and grime' bit.

This part sticks with me, too. A great piece of writing, no matter how you slice it.
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