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Author Topic: Deep Down: Fry and Leela Soul Searching  (Read 26314 times)
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Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #80 on: 11-03-2006 15:58 »
« Last Edit on: 11-06-2006 00:00 »


   
Quote
Originally posted by Xanfor:
  She's subconsiously jealous of Seymore.

(Hey, I have a healthy straight male imagination. You should have been worried if I didn't post this.)

<SEL1750>: Tsk, tsk.


I actually could not find that framegrab in CGEF, I would've posted it     smile. So Leela is not ashamed of her body... add that to her character... oh well, kind of makes sense..

Officer 1BDI

Starship Captain
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« Reply #81 on: 11-03-2006 21:47 »
« Last Edit on: 11-03-2006 21:47 »

As long as we're talking about disappointments with Leela's character (   tongue ), was anyone else even slightly miffed by her reaction to Kif's pregnancy in KGKUaN?  She acted so neutral to the whole thing (minus the initial shock of getting Kif pregant through nothing more than grabbing his hand), and she didn't seem at all interested in what was technically her own offspring.  She didn't even refer to them as her children, just her "DNA."  Hell, when the babies were being attacked at the end, she left Amy to handle it alone.  Throwing her a weapon doesn't constitute as protection, IMHO; she could have at least helped in the counter-attack.

Was it all a callous attitude towards an unwanted and unexpected pregnancy, or a cover-up for her true emotions in light of Kif's insistence that she shouldn't necessarily play the parental role?  I'd like to think it's the latter, but even so, I still found her behavior a bit out of character, especially given her attitude towards having children in TCR.

Edit: 'Tis official: my brain is dead and i cannot spell.
Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #82 on: 11-03-2006 22:07 »

Well it really was JUST her DNA. She didn't feel any connection to them because she has no connection to Kif. I dunno, it's weird. She wasn't really the parent, she just, I dunno.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #83 on: 11-03-2006 22:31 »

As Kif explained - she's only a donor of genetic material. She's not really the parent. This concept is not uncommon in our own time and we can assume it will become an even more accepted principle in the distant future. There's no reason to get overly attached to long-chain organic molecules.
Officer 1BDI

Starship Captain
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« Reply #84 on: 11-03-2006 22:49 »

Point taken.  I just thought be a little more interested in them than she was, but... point taken.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #85 on: 11-03-2006 22:58 »

Also, probably didn't want to seem like she was taking Amy's rightful place.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #86 on: 11-04-2006 03:25 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Officer 1BDI:
...I just thought be a little more interested in them than she was, ...

I believe so too. Especially since some offspring had the Leela trademark ? Doesn't that melt the heart of a female ? (anyone would care to explain here?)

To me this episode was to be funny, straightforward and also have complex aspects. The funny is obvious. The straightforward deals with the classical situation of unplanned motherhood (say pregnancy ?). The complex deals with Leela's attitude towards the situation. I really need to see the ep again to elaborate on that, but I suspect Shiny would make a very good analysis of Leela's attitude and situation (hint-hint, or is it in the archives already) ?

BTW I was thinking (yes it happens to me - ow!) would it not be nice to have an analysis of Fry, Leela and their 'ship episode-wise... I know some eps do not contain much but one could be surprised...

Also I believe some questions in this thread & in the Lovenasium really go buried and unanswered. Should they be repeated or is that considered spam ?

Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #87 on: 11-04-2006 13:55 »

Nah, I do that all the time...I just make it clear that I'm responding to a post from a LOOOONG time ago before I do it.


I thought that Leela's line "A gal has to look after her DNA," was a deliberate attempt to distance herself from what she was inclined to think of as her children ( "I'm sorry I got your boyfriend pregnant" ), as Kif didn't share this POV.  (And I thought the shot of her carrying Kif was kinda cute.  wink )

Also I thought Leela throwing the leaf to Amy was a clear case of deliberately letting Amy take her proper place as protector - and it worked, she was all like "Stay away from my babies!!"  There are few instincts as powerful as that one when it is roused. 

If Leela, the trained fighter, had been doing it, Amy would have seen no need for herself, the novice, to step in and possibly get in Leela's way.  As it is, Leela's quick thinking in (literally) "passing the branch" to Amy created in an instant the maternal bond that Amy feared (and I think she feared it because she sensed she had a naturally powerful one - we don't fear attachments we think will be weak).

I also believe in my heart that if Amy had missed one, Leela would have "backed her up," pursuing and bringing down the predator, and tossing the tadpole after its siblings.  I'm pretty sure that Leela will feel like a kind of Godmother to the Kiflings when they emerge into childhood.

(And wasn't it also pretty cute that the perennially lazy Fry and Zapp were right in there, hacking away with the machetes (without argument), during the trek to the family swamp?)

Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #88 on: 11-04-2006 17:16 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Nah, I do that all the time...I just make it clear that I'm responding to a post from a LOOOONG time ago before I do it.

...

Also I thought Leela throwing the leaf to Amy was a clear case of deliberately letting Amy take her proper place as protector - and it worked, she was all like "Stay away from my babies!!"  There are few instincts as powerful as that one when it is roused. 

If Leela, the trained fighter, had been doing it, Amy would have seen no need for herself, the novice, to step in and possibly get in Leela's way.  As it is, Leela's quick thinking in (literally) "passing the branch" to Amy created in an instant the maternal bond that Amy feared (and I think she feared it because she sensed she had a naturally powerful one - we don't fear attachments we think will be weak).

...


Thank you Shiny for this analysis, you never dissapoint  smile I'll make sure to keep you stimulated by asking weird questions  smile

Fear of strong attachments.... would this apply to Leela's attitude towards Fry ?

It would be so much sweeter to consider this to be the main reason for Leela running away from Fry, rather than ColdAngel's dark reason of sub-conscious self-punishment (see the Love'Nasium)

Well in fact, nothing's black and white. So there probably is a mix of both the sweet and dark reasons (to which proportions though??). Anyone noted this for a future fanfic  smile ?
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #89 on: 11-04-2006 20:32 »

All 'reason' that comes from me is inevitably dark.
jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #90 on: 11-04-2006 20:36 »

yup, dark and dingy with a hint of light shippyness, thats our coldy
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #91 on: 11-05-2006 04:27 »
« Last Edit on: 11-05-2006 04:27 »

[Contents deleted due to utter crappiness]
jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #92 on: 11-05-2006 04:30 »

They can mind their own business, and please ignore all my posts from last night, please!
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #93 on: 11-05-2006 04:33 »

She's about 900 years old. Just like Doctor Who.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #94 on: 11-05-2006 04:36 »
« Last Edit on: 11-05-2006 04:36 »

[To Shiny & Xanfor] Shiny / Xanfor, any news on what's gonna happen to Deep Down, if anything, I have the feeling we post things all over the place and Deep Down & Lovenasium partially overlap , I was hoping the Deep Down (or some other)thread to be for deeper analysis of Fry , Leela and their relationship and how do we relate to them (well that's why we're into Futurama ain't it? ain't it?). Anyway, make an offer    smile
jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #95 on: 11-05-2006 04:38 »

Coldangel, its actually closer to 2000  wink
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #96 on: 11-05-2006 04:38 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by jle1993:
They can mind their own business, and please ignore all my posts from last night, please!

Sure, no prob. Actually my post sucked so I'll delete it if you don't mind (and if I can).
jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #97 on: 11-05-2006 04:39 »

I don't mind, but I don't know if you'll be able to delete it.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #98 on: 11-05-2006 04:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by jle1993:
I don't mind, but I don't know if you'll be able to delete it.

One can do wonders... anywayz...I just spammed the thread again. Damn!
jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #99 on: 11-05-2006 04:54 »

Right, ontopic, Leela loves Fry but she's scared to admit it, because if she actually let her feelings show and Fry was a jerk, then it'd hurt her more than all the other jerks put together, so she's playing it safe.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #100 on: 11-05-2006 04:54 »
« Last Edit on: 11-05-2006 04:54 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Fry_B:
 Thank you Shiny for this analysis, you never dissapoint    smile I'll make sure to keep you stimulated by asking weird questions    smile

Why, thank you!  It's why (I conjecture) Xanfor keeps trying to name me the Queen of PEEL Shipperdom, but I feel that crown belongs to Venus, who has been at the core of Fry&Leela shippiness since the early days...I'm more of a Court High Priestess, really...proselytizer for the Cult of the Sacred 'Ship. (Which means I run off at the mouth more than her, but she is the ultimate Defender of the Faith.   wink )

 
Quote
[Fear of strong attachments.... would this apply to Leela's attitude towards Fry ?

It would be so much sweeter to consider this to be the main reason for Leela running away from Fry, rather than ColdAngel's dark reason of sub-conscious self-punishment (see the Love'Nasium)...Well in fact, nothing's black and white. So there probably is a mix of both the sweet and dark reasons

Yes, but it's more than just a mixture of two reasons...they're really two different facets of THE SAME REASON. You (generic "you" ) fear attachment because you fear abandonment...but why do you fear abandonment?  Because you are sure you aren't "good enough" for people to stay with you...and why do you think that?  Because someone DID once abandon you...therefore you must NOT be good enough, and therefore it will happen again.  Q.E.D.

Which is all 100% tommyrot, of course, but that is how kids' minds work, most of these things stem from things that happened to us when we were kids.

 
Quote
Anyone noted this for a future fanfic    smile ?

I note ALL things for future fanfics, and will use any idea that works, no matter who said it (though if I remember at the time, I do give credit)...my rule is to pick up everything that isn't nailed down (and anything not bolted two miles deep into the Earth's crust ISN'T nailed down).

  tongue
jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #101 on: 11-05-2006 04:56 »

Theres good ol' Shiny, forever the voice of reason. I feel sorry for Leela, she could be so happy with Fry but she doesn't give it a chance.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #102 on: 11-05-2006 05:22 »

She's a metaphor for the entire human race; it knows what it must do to attain peace and tranquility, but it's too damn stubborn to take the simple necessary step to reach that Nirvana.
Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #103 on: 11-05-2006 05:43 »

The whole human race? That's a bit of a generalisation. Like for instance: Fry isn't really like that. And sometimes steps to reach Nirvana aren't so simple. And sometimes, people don't know what they should do to obtain peace and tranquility.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #104 on: 11-05-2006 05:45 »

I should have clarified: Human CIVILIZATION.

It was an anti-war protest.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #105 on: 11-05-2006 06:10 »
« Last Edit on: 11-05-2006 06:10 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Yes, but it's more than just a mixture of two reasons...they're really two different facets of THE SAME REASON. You (generic "you" ) fear attachment because you fear abandonment...but why do you fear abandonment? Because you are sure you aren't "good enough" for people to stay with you...and why do you think that? Because someone DID once abandon you...therefore you must NOT be good enough, and therefore it will happen again. Q.E.D.

  tongue

That which was to be proven, has been... very well, Shiny   smile and thank you.

However, cutting to the chase (since we talk about Leela, but really about the psychological profile of a near-30 year old woman now - ColdAngel dixit), would maturity not have a hand in this too?  Leela knows now who her parents are, that they LOVE her - that is the most important thing - and they left her on those steps for her good (she's probably hating them for that - a bit - but she MUST now know they did the right thing, even if this broke her heart). Sooo.. a LOT of that terrible loneliness, self-flagellation ('not being good enough') should have been soothed. She is NOT an orphan. Her parents LOVE her. Yes she has one eye and people want to burn her. BUT! Who's fault is it ? is it always hers? Or are a lot of those people substandard (human and non-human) beings?

STILL AWAKE ? HEY ! I am going to say something interesting now for a change !

I believe Leela fears a relationship with Fry because 1) she knows it will be a VERY strong bond (stronger than she thought it would be with others). 2) She is afraid she will be dumped, yes. 3) However (and this is where I beg to differ), 2) will not happen because she is not good enough, BUT because most (if not all) men are jerks and all they can see is her physical difference (which they will a) ignore if they get the sex they're craving   smile b) try to 'make acceptable', or even worse c) ignore it altogether since she is in fact just a detail in their important lives). Blitz Quiz: Can you guess who those guys were?

So, this childish kid from the stupid ages has a boyish charm... but he may be one of them.  And a last aspect: She is strongly attracted to him (I refer to later episodes here!) and she knows (and we hope!) her love will grow hot and deep... If Fry dumps her, this passion will not die; it never does when it's that intense. It will transform into Hate.

There's my 10000 cents... Ok, as you were   smile

jle1993

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #106 on: 11-05-2006 06:22 »

a) Zapp
b) Adlai
c) Chaz
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #107 on: 11-05-2006 11:30 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Fry_B:
... Blitz Quiz: Can you guess who those guys were?
Hawt dawg!
Quote
Originally posted by jle1993:
a) Zapp
b) Adlai
c) Chaz
[*Snaps fingers*]
Aw nuts. Beaten to the answer again.

Good job, J.  wink
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #108 on: 11-05-2006 14:26 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Fry_B:
  That which was to be proven, has been... very well, Shiny    smile and thank you.

Thank you.

 
Quote
However...would maturity not have a hand in this too?  Leela knows now who her parents are... Sooo.. a LOT of that terrible loneliness, self-flagellation ('not being good enough') should have been soothed. She is NOT an orphan. Her parents LOVE her.

We grow up in certain...circumstances.  We are adaptable beings; if it is remotely possible, we can find a way to survive.  If we cannot control our environment, we can control our reactions to it: change ourselves and we change the dynamic. 

So we adapt.  We develop survival techniques that do their job and keep us alive, and functional (if not always truly sane) until our situation changes.

Then the habits we instilled in ourselves, the patterns of behavior we learned over and over until they became instinct, and the very  thoughts we convinced ourselves to believe wholly and sincerely in order to enhance our chances for survival quietly fade and leave us healthy and whole.


(If only. )


That said, I agree with most of the rest of your post.  I see no reason why Leela motives have to be clear-cut, "for this reason only" ones; she, like most of us, has multiple motives and complex reasons for her behavior (and isn't that a brilliant thing to find in an animated American sitcom....  love

Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #109 on: 11-05-2006 16:51 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by jle1993:
a) Zapp
b) Adlai
c) Chaz

Yes of course (DING!)

In fact there was a choice I forgot about in the heat of writing  smile That passage should have looked like this :

 
Quote
...because most (if not all) men are jerks and all they can see is her physical difference (which they will a) use to deceive and take advantage of her b) ignore if they get the sex they're craving  c) try to 'make acceptable', or (even worse) d) ignore altogether since she is in fact just a detail in their important lives).

Now it's perfect  smile (Remember ColdAngel, perfection is in the Eye of the Beholder)
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #110 on: 11-06-2006 01:19 »

I say Leela has a bit of despereation to be recognized in all her relationships and it blinds her to the obvious flaws of her suitors.  Take Adlai for example, she's always had a crush on him and he finally recognizes her as being relationship worthy and she is blinded to his mind-numbing dullness.  Then there's Alkazar, she has her mind set on being the savior of an entire cyclops race and it overshadows Alkazar's jerkiness (is that a word?).  Then there's Chaz, his high status made her blind to his obvious arrogant self-inflated ego.  Anyhoo, dunno bout Zapp though...
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #111 on: 11-06-2006 01:54 »
« Last Edit on: 11-06-2006 01:54 by coldangel_1 »

This post is out of order. We apologise for any inconvenience.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #112 on: 11-06-2006 01:54 »
« Last Edit on: 11-06-2006 01:54 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
I say Leela has a bit of despereation to be recognized in all her relationships and it blinds her to the obvious flaws of her suitors.  Take Adlai for example, she's always had a crush on him and he finally recognizes her as being relationship worthy and she is blinded to his mind-numbing dullness.  Then there's Alkazar, she has her mind set on being the savior of an entire cyclops race and it overshadows Alkazar's jerkiness (is that a word?).  Then there's Chaz, his high status made her blind to his obvious arrogant self-inflated ego.  Anyhoo, dunno bout Zapp though...

Ok the following may be a possible answer - I paste here the last fewposts from Lovenasium.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
Maybe not Fry, but she was ready to 'put out' for Chaz on her first date with him. If he'd been nice to the orphans, she'd done him in the skating rink...
And she did the nasty with Alkazar just hours after meeting him...

And let's not forget about Zapp...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Fry_B:
--------------------------
Yes this was abt doing it with Fry. As for Zapp, Shiny posted a very good possible explanation in the Why Leela did it with Zapp thread. Alkazar's scam was quite compelling - remember Leela's demons (last cyclops, no-one likes me, etc) and all the misleading setting Al put up for her, including the morphing suit . IMPORTANTLY, in Bicyclops she was not yet at the phase where she knew she was a mutant, parents loved her, she was not totally abandoned, etc. After that her self-estemm improved a lot and there would have been no way she would have fallen for Al.

Chaz beats me still, if you read my posts in Deep Down you will see I was really p*ssed about how Fry was treated while she was ready to go for it with Chaz - that is still to be properly investigated (i.e. not find excuses but find out whether it is just chronolgy - i.e. if she evolved from that level towards the end of the series).

Finally, I was referring to Leela as she would be towards the end of the last episode, The Devil's Hands. Generally, it is obvious that she has evolved. Some (or most) of us have been rowdy, stupid, inconsiderate, cruel... at some point in time [ errare humanum est ] - thing is, do we persevere in that [ perseverare diabolicum ] or are we becoming better ? Same applies for Leela....

------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
..
Maybe in some way she's driven to intentionally prompt feelings of jealous yearning in Fry so that she can feel wanted by him and thus gain a greater sense of self-worth. I've sure known a few women who have delighted in doing just that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Fry_B:
--------------------------

Convoluted... maybe true. Remember however she did not look for Fry intentionally - she just happened to hear his voice or see him in that joint, and she was very happy she had found someone to look after her pet so she could ... you know. Now of crs your plot (that I am really not sure about) may have been put up by her on the spot once she found him. OR, she thought of him more as a friend / confident. AppleTea's argument stands though, friend / confident or not, if she knew he liked her she could have set him up to look after Nibbler in a less cruel way (women are experts at that - did Leela not sing Deception is the curse of my whimsical gender ?)

Also I believe the writer wanted Fry to go as depressive as possible to create a contrast between his state after Leela's request and him being thrown garbage on and his status as saviour of the world (although alas - he remembered none of the good stuff!)
===============

I pasted these since they were related to AppleTea's and ColdAngel's posts.

coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #113 on: 11-06-2006 06:37 »

Leels falling into bed with Zapp was the result of an empathetic nurturing impulse. She's a mothering type (see her very tender treatment of brain-muddled Fry in 'Insane in the Mainframe'), so when Zapp put on his blubbering "I'm so lonely" routine (probably faked) she was immediately pulled into "oh you poor baby!" mode and became an easy mark.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #114 on: 11-06-2006 06:59 »
« Last Edit on: 11-06-2006 06:59 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Leels falling into bed with Zapp was the result of an empathetic nurturing impulse. She's a mothering type (see her very tender treatment of brain-muddled Fry in 'Insane in the Mainframe'), so when Zapp put on his blubbering "I'm so lonely" routine (probably faked) she was immediately pulled into "oh you poor baby!" mode and became an easy mark.

Have you read Shiny's posts in the  Why Leela did it with Zapp thread (middle of page somewhere)  The gist of it is here:

 
Quote
Venus:
I think it's all very simple. She was incredibly lonely and he played on that lonliness. He was talking about how isolated he was and having felt the same way she took the bait. Had he used any other tactic it wouldn't have worked but he hit on the one weakness she does have, her feelings of isolation.

 
Quote
Shiny:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by futz:
You really think that's what Leela was thinking when she's bobbing Zapp's knob. Your little speech went on longer than they're "night of passion".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe I explained that I don’t think Leela was thinking much at all at that point. But if you want it all spelled out, then I think her mental processes went something like this (please allow for verbal representation of non-verbal thoughts and emotional states):

Leela: "What a jerk. Oh crud, he's crying! I didn't mean to hurt his feelings THAT bad! Quick, cheer him up. Say something comforting. You shouldn't have been so harsh, Leela, it's like kicking a puppy...a great big, galumphing, drooling, stupid, horny puppy, but still just a...."

[Zapp: I'm just so LONELYYYYYY!]

Leela (feels awakening of a very old, hollow pain in the middle of her chest, and hot tears spring to her eye): "Oh god...I've felt that bad...I can't think of anything positive to say to that! Is this all I have to look forward to? Poor guy....oh bleah, he's trying to kiss me...well, maybe it'll make him feel barely, marginally better *sob* oh GOD what's wrong with me, I'm acting like a big baby...I wish I felt barely, marginally better...oh god, look at me I'm such a basket case...there he goes again, oh, why don’t I just let him, at least it’ll make HIM happy, and it’s not like I deserve any better, I really am a worthless freak and no one will ever love meeeeee <hic> *sob*sob* <hic> *sob*...."

[here Shiny goes nutz in  a fruitcake, I suggest you skip this if you're faint-hearted]

Oh, I think Leela’s going to be too tuckered out from kicking someone else’s teeth...someone who suggests that the most embarrassing mistake of her life was made from some “superiority” hangup, rather than just a badly misplaced kindness...someone who discusses the subject with all the sensitivity and understanding of a frat boy whose steady girlfriend has sprung a leak...someone who evades logical arguments by ridiculing their thoroughness or by climbing up on a high horse and going “Nyaah!” at some minor point of phrasing, using feigned “sensitivity” as camoflage...someone in obvious denial of being on the “-down” side of rapidly successive smackdowns....someone in this veeeeery thread.....

There is also a very nice post by Tom Allen about Leela's possible reasons - I pasted it in the Lovenasium.


Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #115 on: 11-06-2006 10:42 »
« Last Edit on: 11-06-2006 10:42 »

Nuts in a fruitcake?  Nonsense...then it would be a nutcake.  If it's a fruitcake, it must contain fruit.  Like cherries.  And currents.  And I'm currently just cherry, thank you, for whatever raisin.  Have a grape day.   smile

(and coldangel, quit switching personalities between threads!  Or else I'm going to start disproving you by crossposting your own posts, so you can just argue with yourself...   tongue )
x-number1fan-x

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #116 on: 11-06-2006 11:46 »

I agree with (ooh)shiny, [how long did it take you to come up with that grapey cherry thing?]
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #117 on: 11-06-2006 18:25 »

Shiny - I am my own Devil's Advocate.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #118 on: 11-06-2006 18:54 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Nuts in a fruitcake?  Nonsense...then it would be a nutcake.  If it's a fruitcake, it must contain fruit.  Like cherries.  And currents.  And I'm currently just cherry, thank you, for whatever raisin.  Have a grape day.    smile

OMG I just checked the go nutz expression. I am shocked. Please note I WAS REFERRING TO THE FIRST MEANING.


Shiny

Professor
*
« Reply #119 on: 11-07-2006 02:45 »

I believe you.  Personally I think  the second meaning was grafted onto the phrase, because "go nuts" and "go crazy" were in use during my own youth, when slang was much less debauched.  "Nutty as a fruitcake" has been around for DECADES before I was born, meaning the same thing as "Bats in the belfry" and "a screw loose" (when "screw" meant ONLY an inclined plane arranged in a spiral).

And coldangel, I guessed that.  Just please remember that the Devil's Advocate presented the "devil's POV" for the purpose of discovering Truth by exploring the skeptical fairly and honestly.  Skepticism is mental resistance to belief...and like physical resistance in weight training, it builds strength that easy acceptance would not.  It doesn't exist for its own sake, but only gains significance in opposition to a positive hypothesis, and the positive needs equal time to fulfil its purpose in Truth-finding. It's like Yin and Yang...they each contain the seed of the other, and they only gain meaning in relation to each other.

And now I gotta sleep.  See you all tomorrow.
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