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Author Topic: Deep Down: Fry and Leela Soul Searching  (Read 24013 times)
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Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #280 on: 11-12-2006 09:42 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
I dunno, I just feel that it's mostly coldangel, shiny, and you Fry_B doing the deep analyzing stuff, I mean I understand it all it's just that I feel I gots nothing to contribute.

And I'm fine with that, it's nice reading all youse guy's theories and whatnot.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. You guys are too smart for me to think of my own ideas to contribute. Also, I'm not getting any of the references to X-Files or battlestar galactica or whatever it is you guys are talking about because I've never seen any of these Sci-fi type shows.

And Fry_B: Why am I here?
Err probably I originally came here to meet other Futurama fans and people who share my interest but I've now realised that this forum is differant to any other I've been on in terms of how well the members know each other. Like, most people here don't seem to know most other people's real names. We don't seem to know anything really about each other except that we all love Futurama and some of our locations. This is possibly greatly due to the banning of "hi, I'm new" threads. No one gets to really know anyone else.

So my new purpose of being here is to read shippy fics and to discuss Futurama I suppose...

And speaking of Leels's Homeworld a little earlier in this thread and Fry_B saying it isn't many people's favourites: I think it's probably one of my top non-shippy episodes and I even cry at the end when it shows those images of Leela's parents being there for her at differant times throughout her life without Leela knowing (giving her a birthday present, tucking her in etc.).
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #281 on: 11-12-2006 11:29 »
« Last Edit on: 11-12-2006 11:29 »

I thought "Leela's Homeworld" was a fan favorite...I seem to recall it scoring high in some poll/vote thing somewhere...

And it's totally shippy, at least on Fry's end.    love  I do remember that in the "Moments you want to be Fry" thread, the ending of "Leela's Homeworld" got mentioned a LOT.  Like maybe even as much as, or more than, the ending of the "impulsive Leela" story of "Anthology of Interest 1" ( Fry: "I REALLY like it!" )  And that ending montage is one of people's favorite tearjerking-but-in-a-good-way moments. (One of mine, too. )


Please don't be intimidated by our ability to pull smart-seeming arguments out of our butts...some of us just love the sound of our own typing, and can go on and on (and on and on... ).    tongue  Please, if you have thoughts about Fry and Leela, post them...and if you haven't seen BSG or other shows we're talking about, compare F&L to shows that YOU have seen (and let us wonder what you're talking about!)  The thread is for everyone, not just those of us for whom "diarrhea of the keyboard" is a way of life. (  roll eyes at self)...Dont' let us drown you out with excess verbiage.   

This thread was about looking at our own hearts by commenting on Fry and Leela's.  Thus, everyone has something to contribute.  If CA and I or anyone else makes it hard to do that, that's OUR fault, not yours.  Feel free to tell us to shut up and let you get a word in edgewise.

Fry_B, can you give coldangel and I the smackdown if we overstep our bounds?  Even if we have a point, there's no reason for us to shout all the time.


Oh, I do hate realizing I've been a loudmouth again.    frown 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(And this is me, proving how HARD it is for me to shut up....   no no )

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel:
 One by one, parts of us die, chipped away by the chisel of time and circumstance. We are gradually whittled down with the death of each portion of ourselves, becoming ever less like the person we started out as.

Nice writing, bro.  Dark and deep.  Seems appropriate   wink

I just wanted to say, though...this "chiseling away" of which you speak is often not really the death of the self, per se, but only the death of the ego - that false self we wear, believing it to be our real self for years, but actually no more than a facade we've spent most of our lives erecting. 

It HURTS to lose those bits...it's like peeling away something we've superglued to our skin....but we can never be our real, true selves until we lose all the masks we've put on (and discover what REALLY lies beneath them).

The chiseling feels like small deaths, it really does...but it's actually the beginning of our authentic lives.

coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #282 on: 11-12-2006 12:10 »

Shiny, I'll post the full section of the novel I took that from now, just to show how right you were and how I was on the same wavelength when I wrote it about 12 months ago... albeit in a darker manner. The character, Cale Black, goes through a defining moment of brutality at the begining, and this is a retrospective interlude further on of that early event that peeled off his skin, as you put it. To reveal the true self - something quite powerful that lurked beneath. As he said, "sometimes there are rebirths".
This has nothing to do with Futurama and everything to do with me promoting my novel.
Here, read the full section:

Interlude IV: Cale Black

Human life is a frail, ephemeral thing…
…As we who have died know well.
   There are so many degrees of death, like shades of grey; infinitesimal changes in tone that lead, imperceptibly, toward black. And that blackness sits at the end, the true death; visceral, unsubtle, undignified – the physical conclusion which, to some, is little more than a pedantic technicality tagged on for the sake of tidiness.
   We die so many times, little deaths mourned only by ourselves in lonely places, quiet and detached. They are the deaths of beliefs, of ideologies once held so tightly; deaths of innocence that we only discover once it has been trampled, bloody and torn, into the dirt. There are deaths of fear, like the very fear of death itself vanished in an instant to be replaced by a cold, remorseless indifference.
One by one, parts of us die, chipped away by the chisel of time and circumstance. We are gradually whittled down with the death of each portion of ourselves, becoming ever less like the person we started out as.

But then there are rebirths.

I lay dead in the grass, looking up at a brilliant blue sky as blood ran warm from my wounds. I still breathed – the air almost squeezed itself into my lungs without consent, rasping in my throat and stubbornly forcing my chest up and down.
   Why?
The certainty of my impending demise had hung in my mind from the beginning, when I slipped away from that little nameless village. And in that moment the sense of disgust and loss and injustice seemed to swallow all coherent thought; I was going to die for doing the right thing, I was going to die alone with nobody to help me.
   That was the first of the lesser deaths, the blissful naivety of youth – the belief that people will do the right thing, no matter what the consequence. It was torn apart by brusque orders edged with shame: we weren’t permitted to help them, so they would not be helped.
   I burnt with fury.
   I choked in disbelief.
   I was, of course, little more than a boy.
   “Let me survive long enough to help them,” I pleaded with the vague, nameless God-figure that protects agnostics, and only then realised my acceptance of the inevitability of my own death. It had occurred without my knowledge, and the sudden internal revelation sent me reeling.
   ‘Let me survive long enough’?
   The second of the lesser deaths – self-preservation; it had passed away peacefully in its sleep, and a long time had passed before anyone discovered its shrivelled corpse.
   I was driven. That drive had smothered any concern for my own existence. This was not courage, for courage amounts to a conquest of fear; I didn’t conquer it, I merely poisoned it.
   For all the training, all the constant drills and exercises and ugly, bumbling indoctrinations, I was not ready for war. Can a person ever truly be? I was not a veteran, an unusual case, I had been selected for the SAS on the merits of my performance at the academy, in war-games and tests. I had never seen death splashed on the ground, hung up in the trees, piled metres-deep in hastily-dug trenches. I had never been fired at by live rounds, aimed with intent to bring me down, whistling past my ears.
   I had never killed.
   And that was the third of the lesser deaths. I passed the boundary between normal person and killer; pulled the trigger of my Styer rifle and killed not only that first militiaman, but my own innocence as well.
   Then, without hesitating, I killed the second man.
   How quickly one can grow accustomed to such an act.
   What followed was the first in a long series of bloody battles that my life has been largely comprised of since that day. I cut them down, one by one, feeling less remorse each time, rapidly becoming used to the death-cries that would follow me in the years to come.
   At the end of it I lay broken, as I expected I would, on my back in the middle of that clearing in the jungle. Bullets had punctured my flesh, lancing through the yielding tissue with disgusting ease, as mine had done to the bodies of my enemies.
   They had fallen, all of them. And from nearby came the unhealthy burble of a truck’s engine – an escape for those I had come to save.
   I won.

In that moment I let go, allowing the last tethers to my life to loosen and release: I had achieved what I set out to, there was nothing more for me to do but lie and wait for the others to return and finish their dead companions’ job.
   I will die, I decided, finally and ultimately, torn apart by the rifles of angry, violent men bent on revenge.
But the innocents will be away.
   This is the last of the lesser deaths – a final release of attachment to life, an immersion into the reality of the fact that yes, I am now going to die. The fire of life always dies before the body does, doused by the certainty of its end as surely as a candle is snuffed in a gust of wind – and the person is left waiting, bleeding, for the obligatory punctuating endpoint.
   Waiting for the black.
   I stared up at that brilliant sky and allowed myself to imagine that the events of the previous minutes were a fevered daydream – distant and obscure.
   In the pits of my mind, something stirred.
Life blossoms in the wake of death, a renewal that can never come to pass if not for the loss that preceded it.
   On that day, the brutal hacking-away of intrinsic aspects of my persona cleared a path from the sordid depths of my subconscious, paving a way for the emergence of a new, undefinable facet.
   “Enough of that shit!” it growled at me from within my own mind, and I gritted my teeth in response to this new, powerful presence.
   The birth, as visceral and undignified as death, of a new life. This new aspect of me seems to take control over my (our?) battered body, heaving it upright despite the pain and unsteadiness.
   The wounds are not so severe. My end has not yet come.
   “Come on, time’s tickin’.”

Anyone who has been to the edge of the abyss is changed irreversibly; scarred or healed or enlightened or any other of a host of varied evolutions.
   For me, death granted the aid of a monster born out of the violent turmoil of my soul. This warrior element, this wellspring of strength, it took root and buoyed me, filling the spaces left vacant by that which I had lost.
   I was born anew – a child of horror and bloodshed.
   I left that jungle clearing forever changed; deadly, fractured, and fucked-up.

But somehow, inexplicably, undeniably – whole.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #283 on: 11-12-2006 19:43 »
« Last Edit on: 11-12-2006 19:43 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Cyberphobia:
 Yeah, I completely agree with that. You guys are too smart for me to think of my own ideas to contribute. Also, I'm not getting any of the references to X-Files or battlestar galactica or whatever it is you guys are talking about because I've never seen any of these Sci-fi type shows.

Too smart [blows raspberry], my foot. As Shiny said, if it's getting too complicated it's our fault and yes, the keyboard does make a pleasant noise when I type...   smile

Really this should be the place to 1) debate in somewhat more depth the topics in the Shipper Thread, without having to Shine   smile in every sentence and 2) to discuss how the Futurama (or related - how related? we are flexible!) universe applies to ourselves (or does not, for that matter, it is just as interesting).

As for the references, again as Shiny said, feel free to throw in yours !! Someone mentioned Scrubs or something like that - I'm lost - well I Google it if I have time, if not, tough (titties) luck, I live with it.

BTW XFiles was not that far back, and I was referring to the *new* Battlestar Galactica - the opening movie and the mini-series - that was not that far back either.

If anything, remember the Futurama team are making the new eps and/or movie NOW and looking for ideas. It would be foolish of them not to look on the largest discussion boards to get the feeling of what Fans want or dream about. This includes the fanfic they write. So it may be that what you post is being watched by THEM and you may also see your fics in some episodes, changed just as much as needed to avoid paying royalties - but would you really care ?!

I was about to ask the question to all Futurama fan fic authors: 'What would you feel if you knew the Futurama writers are reading your fic? Pressure?, Happiness? 'Well it was about damn time'? Not to mention what if you saw one of your ideas in an episode...
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #284 on: 11-12-2006 19:51 »
« Last Edit on: 11-13-2006 00:00 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
I thought "Leela's Homeworld" was a fan favorite...I seem to recall it scoring high in some poll/vote thing somewhere...

So I'm wrong again... Good !  [@ all:] See? nobody's perfect.. Of course, my main point was that that episode would be Leela's favourite.

 
Quote
Fry_B, can you give coldangel and I the smackdown if we overstep our bounds?  Even if we have a point, there's no reason for us to shout all the time.

No can do... I am afraid of ColdAngel... couldn't find the way to the Caramel core yet.

[EDIT] CA, I am still to read what you posted, I am not going to skim thru and go 'meeh'... (horiz waving sign with hand, see Fry's past sex partners in The Sting)
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #285 on: 11-12-2006 20:46 »
« Last Edit on: 11-12-2006 20:46 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
...[re the Pyramid]...
But perhaps, like Leela, you just need a way to serve the community that incorporates your violence....

And that brings us back to the neglected topic of this thread...I’m as guilty as the next guy (and coldangel is the next guy     tongue ), but could we possibly try to talk more about Fry and Leela,...   

Shiny, very good analysis (again   smile)..whew it took a while to take in.. BTW I can relate to some of that, I have been born and lived quite a while (up to 2nd Uni year) in a communist regime-governed country, that started better than the West and ended up in misery, food shortages and (the worst of all) one TV channel with two hours of broadcast per day (Ok, you could get a VCR (not easy at all) and smuggle pirated videos - the only hope). Anyway.. so I really know what is on offer on both sides... and .. well.. it's not always pretty. Enough for now.

Re off-topicking (nice word) ... my initial, long forgotten question was how the Pyramid levels apply to Leela... I never lost sight of the poor topic. But then again, the other aim of this thread is intended to be what does all this mean to us.. So inevitably we will end up writing about us as well, and how similar or different we are to Fry & Leela. If this was not the case, we are really only duplicating / diluting the Shipper Thread (this happens anyway but not too much at this point). The only thing I both rue and lament are large sequences of single-word or single-sentence posts that confuse and infuriate me (nah, it's allright, I just have to scroll a lot).

 
Quote
...also, "Deep Down: Fry & Leela blah blah... something... romance... yadda yadda" should sooo be the name of the sequel thread, when this one hits 20 pages.      big grin

I have my doubts this thread will ever hit the age of 20 pages. But if so, and I'm still alive...

Now, ColdAngel, don't flood DD to demolish my view!

Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #286 on: 11-12-2006 22:38 »

@ Fry_B and Shiny:
It is sooooo not your fault if it gets too complicated or whatever. You are perfectly entitled to have a really deep, complicated discussion if you choose, that's what this thread is for. And I pretty much understand most of what you guys are saying and it's really interesting. I just have nothing to contribute. It's like if you're reading a non-fiction book and you're learning about something, you can't exactly contribute anything because it's something you're learning about, not forming own opinions about. So like I'm learning about all your ideas but they are all pretty much new concepts to me so I don't exactly have my own opinion about them.

I hope that made sense.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Fry_B:
 I was about to ask the question to all Futurama fan fic authors: 'What would you feel if you knew the Futurama writers are reading your fic? Pressure?, Happiness? 'Well it was about damn time'? Not to mention what if you saw one of your ideas in an episode...
Well I haven't written any fics yet (though I plan to soon I think) but if the fic was pretty bad, then embarrassment. If the fic was pretty good, then honoured. It would be the most awesome thing if one of them replied and said they liked it.

If I saw my own idea in an episode, I'd probably think more along the lines of "OMG I predicted this!" rather than "OMG they're using my idea!"
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #287 on: 11-12-2006 23:24 »

What she said...

And about the fics part, the writers aren't allowed to read them unfortunately because of copyright laws I believe.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #288 on: 11-13-2006 00:20 »


Fry_B: Actually, I meant to comment on Leela re: the Pyramid, and lost my train of thought somewhere in the pustulence of Western culture.  wink

IMHO, Leela's issues are at the second level, the Security level...her subconscious feels that whatever she has can be taken away, and anyone she loves will go away.  In other words, abandonment issues. 


Apple Tea, Cyberphobe...okay, but when you GET any ideas, you'll post them, won't you?  Promise? 


coldangel: very well written, and interesting.  Though IMHO your character has not suddenly become his true self, but generated a new mask, a persona created for survival.  Totally understandable in his circumstances, but not "the death of the ego" as I meant it - or at least, only the death of one level of ego, followed by the immediate emergence of a revamped, survival-oriented, 2.0 version.

But very well done.  You should find an appreciative audience with little trouble.  smile
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #289 on: 11-13-2006 00:36 »

Oh golly gosh, all these posts to read through...

 
Quote
Originally posted by Fry_B:
the other aim of this thread is intended to be what does all this mean to us.. So inevitably we will end up writing about us as well, and how similar or different we are to Fry & Leela.
Of course, because that's how all our lives started. From the beginning we learnt in relevance to ourselves because we didn't really understand that anything else existed, so it's natural for us to relate anything and everything to ourselves throughout the rest of our lives. Also, it's fun.  tongue

Just reading a bit more through that thing on the pyramid (I wonder if he built it himself, or whether he got slaves to do it...) and I can see how it applies to Leela. Funny what a little extra time and patience can do to a person; I actually read things properly.  eek Okay, so Leela finally satisfied her need for love and belonging to a family in Leela’s Homeworld. After this I would assume there was heightened self-esteem.  This might have meant she was less interested in any other form of relationship for quite a while. On the other hand, it may mean she'd be more ready for a relationship with, oh let's say Fry, because she's had her self-esteem boosted and such, and since one of her own needs has been satisfied she may be more interested in others' needs (such as Fry’s need to be acknowledged as being important to her…I assume). Oooh, look at my attempt at being all analytical and junk. (Pish, it's all probably been said already. Ah well, I'm clarifying for myself.) Fry already had a loving family, and a loving pet (that poor puppy), and now a robot for a friend, so what’s left for him is that relationship he wants with Leela. It’s all starting to make sense now…
Now, of course their wants are going to be selfish ones. Our needs are selfish, that’s why we need them, so that we can live.

 
Quote
I am afraid of ColdAngel... couldn't find the way to the Caramel core yet.

He’s not scary. He just wants to be, and you’re succumbing to the image! That’s very selfless, helping feed somebody else’s ego.  tongue

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
IMHO, Leela's issues are at the second level, the Security level...her subconscious feels that whatever she has can be taken away, and anyone she loves will go away. In other words, abandonment issues.
Isn't that a part of everybody's subconscious?
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #290 on: 11-13-2006 00:52 »
« Last Edit on: 11-13-2006 00:52 »

Some have it worse than others.  Leela has it bad.   eek
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #291 on: 11-13-2006 01:14 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
What she said...

And about the fics part, the writers aren't allowed to read them unfortunately because of copyright laws I believe.

Huh ?? Well they are available on the Web - that's how I found out what might have happened after the Devil's Hands finale(wink-wink). Do you mean they are not allowed to use them officially ?  Weeell, I believe true shippers / fans would be happy just to donate them, waive any rights  and maybe get a tiny reference somewhere in the credits. I know I would do that - and I did not even write a fic yet (hehe).

Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #292 on: 11-13-2006 01:39 »
« Last Edit on: 11-13-2006 01:39 »

I dunno, I just saw something about it in the CGEF fanfic section. 
Well if all else fails, you can use flash to make the fanfics into episodes.

 
Quote
Apple Tea, Cyberphobe...okay, but when you GET any ideas, you'll post them, won't you? Promise?
I promise nothing...

j/k will do captain!

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
IMHO, Leela's issues are at the second level, the Security level...her subconscious feels that whatever she has can be taken away, and anyone she loves will go away. In other words, abandonment issues.

So does that mean Leela felt secure before she met Fry? she had nothing then.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #293 on: 11-13-2006 01:40 »

Shiny - there may be no such thing as a true self.
any1else and I were discussing this at great length on MSN a few days ago actually, how any one person is just the sum total of their collection of masks.
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #294 on: 11-13-2006 01:59 »

I'm not sure if I understand how Leels could have bad abandonment issues. She hasn't really been abandoned by people in relationships, and she never really knew what happened to her parents so she couldn't specifically think she was abandoned by them. Fear of rejection certainly I can understand, but not fear of being left alone....Unless I'm missing something. It's easy for me to forget things.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #295 on: 11-13-2006 02:09 »
« Last Edit on: 11-13-2006 02:09 by coldangel_1 »

Yeah, no, I dunno.
The doubt as to her own worth would hang in her mind, even though she's found her parents now, she grew up not knowing whether she had been unwanted or not, and lived with the constant harassment of the other kids. That kind of life leaves an impression on the weak, PITIFUL human mind.
It may not specifically be abandonment per-se (later life events re: Sean could contributte to that though) but it is a general mistrust of interpersonal connections.
Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #296 on: 11-13-2006 02:12 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny
Apple Tea, Cyberphobe...okay, but when you GET any ideas, you'll post them, won't you? Promise?
Errr, ok but only because you're nice.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
So does that mean Leela felt secure before she met Fry? she had nothing then.

Well before she met Fry, she had nothing to feel insecure about losing. She had no friend to lose. So now that she has a friend, she has become insecure about losing him. You can't be insecure about losing things if you haven't got anything in the first place.

coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #297 on: 11-13-2006 02:33 »

Sure you can. I'm insecure about losing my Godlike powers.  big grin
Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #298 on: 11-13-2006 04:41 »

Yeah but you wouldn't be insecure about losing your Godlike powers if you didn't have any in the first place.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #299 on: 11-13-2006 04:49 »

Well... in truth I don't really have any...

...

YET.
Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #300 on: 11-13-2006 04:52 »

Well how can you be insecure of losing them then? You haven't got any. Maybe you're just insecure that you'll never get them.
Stezzy

Crustacean
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« Reply #301 on: 11-13-2006 05:17 »

Any child who is forced to grow up without proper parental figures is likely to have abandonment issues because their emotional needs haven't been met. Every person in the world is born with in-built emotional needs to be loved, protected and live in a stable environment etc.  If someone (in this case, Leela) doesn't get their needs met, then they feel empty and insecure about the world. This is then transferred to all future relationships. As Leela is insecure due to her upbringing, she fears letting people get close to her as she is vulnerable. It is easier for her to have meaningless encounters with Zapp then it is to get close to Fry, simly because Fry loves her. Leela has never experienced parental love, and therefore she was emotionally abandoned by her parents. This makes it incredibly hard for her to learn to love someone else in the true sense of the word, as she wasn't brought up with parental love.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #302 on: 11-13-2006 05:28 »

This is why her parents ought to go in to bat for Fry. Encouragement from them is what she needs, and it would mean a lot if they told her "That Fry is such a nice boy - you should give him a chance."
FENIX

Bending Unit
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« Reply #303 on: 11-13-2006 05:42 »

You know..... I agree with most if not all that's been said, hopefully, if we all pray REAL hard we can grant ColdAngel_1 some omnipotence and I can get outta this F@%&IN shit hole. But being where I am at the mo, I regret that deep emotions and feelings have no place within me, I got a job to do.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #304 on: 11-13-2006 07:15 »
« Last Edit on: 11-13-2006 07:15 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:

...this "chiseling away" of which you speak is often not really the death of the self, per se, but only the death of the ego - that false self we wear, believing it to be our real self for years, but actually no more than a facade we've spent most of our lives erecting. 

It HURTS to lose those bits...it's like peeling away something we've superglued to our skin....but we can never be our real, true selves until we lose all the masks we've put on (and discover what REALLY lies beneath them).

The chiseling feels like small deaths, it really does...but it's actually the beginning of our authentic lives.

Ok, I'm afraid I'll have to doubt part of that view.

How do you know when your life is the authentic one? You do not lose masks, you change them. Look at ColdAngel's 'rebirth' balancing the deaths. You do not lose or gain, you change - or hopefully, evolve. Those masks you mention (that do compose your ego)- are not necessarily something bad - I believe they are a way to cope with the world at various times (or to project the image you want to project). Thus, I suppose every stage of your life may appear to you as 'authentic' at the time. You are chiselled by the passage of time, but not towards your true ego - maybe simply because there is no such thing - just the image you wear at a given point in time.
 
So ColdAngel, I suppose the rebirth that occurred in your excerpt was part of that perpetual evolution... to which we are doomed as long as we are alive - and not disturbed / sickened enough to suppress it and commit suicide (or just lay helpless on our backs (like Bender in the Crimes)) and give up the fight for survival).  A very optimistic note to end my post, I admit.

[EDIT] AAAHHH Why don't I read all posts

 
Quote
IMHO your character has not suddenly become his true self, but generated a new mask, a persona created for survival. Totally understandable in his circumstances, but not "the death of the ego" as I meant it - or at least, only the death of one level of ego, followed by the immediate emergence of a revamped, survival-oriented, 2.0 version.

Damn, damn - Shiny said it first! Again! But interestingly I developed the same image, though in a more simplistic, lame way...

Like I said, I am starting to fear Shiny's intellect. I hope I'll never upset her (again)
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #305 on: 11-13-2006 07:38 »

FENIX - Grant me omnipotence and I promise you will all toil for a thousand years beneath my benevolent boot-heel.

Fry_B - as I said to Shiny, there may be no such thing as a true self to be found. We may all just be a collection of masks that we put on for different people, and what lies beneath them might be blank emptiness. What was it Shakespeare said? We are all actors and the world is a stage. For a pouncy Elizabethian prat he did sprout a few gems of wisdom.
FENIX

Bending Unit
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« Reply #306 on: 11-13-2006 07:40 »

That don't sound so bad...

*Reaches for his Omnipotence ray*
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #307 on: 11-13-2006 07:56 »

Excellent!
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #308 on: 11-13-2006 07:57 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
IMHO, Leela's issues are at the second level, the Security level...her subconscious feels that whatever she has can be taken away, and anyone she loves will go away. In other words, abandonment issues.

Ok, then if her issues are at such a low level, it means the entire pyramid is sitting on a shaky foundation and the tremors should be felt the worst at the very top level. That is, Leela should have low morale, not really be creative, spontaneous, should not be able to solve probs very well, should have lots of prejudice and be in denial. (Shiny will kill me now and there will be no rebirths, so it does not matter, I can go on).

Furthermore, she should have low esteem (here there may be a point), no confidence (er...), no respect of others (whaaaa?..) and not be respected by others (Ok Bender keeps bringing up the Zapp episode in the most embarrassing moments)

Her love/belonging levels should also be shot, hence no friendships (check, Fry may appear to be her friend but friendship is the last thing in his mind, HE LOVES HER for God's sake), no family (well, after Leela's homeworld... ?), no sexual intimacy (no, not the real one anyway).

I suspect that Leela's issues are at love/ belonging level rather. Security of body - self-assured. Of employment - the cryogenic lab job sucked but no-one kicked her out. Security of resources / property: She was never rich but I guess she got over that a long time ago. Security of the family - well she hasn't got one!

So anyway, Level three is dysfunctional. Once that level is fixed (Leela's Homeworld) her self-esteem is boosted and I bet, like I posted a while ago, that she does not fear anymore being dumped because she is unworthy, but rather because all men are jerks. It is an improvement  smile Truth is, once again is is not level two or three, it is a mix of two and three..

And now (drrrrrumroll) the conclusion: if you do not breathe, eat, drink, f*ck, sleep or ... excrete properly, you're doomed to wear some of the ugliest masks ever, your persona will be chipped away to the bone, you will die many-many infinitesimal painful deaths and be born again - only to suffer more (and become even darker and uglier - bwhaha).

OMG what happened to me - Everything did taste like ColdAngel for a while...
coldangel

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« Reply #309 on: 11-13-2006 07:59 »

I've reached someone... *contented sigh*
FENIX

Bending Unit
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« Reply #310 on: 11-13-2006 08:19 »

Well, that's all good and true, but...

Trying to generalise the emotions and feelings of others is a tricky business, there have been many circumstances I'm sure where a friend or person you've known all your life does something.... out of character should we say, and although you've known them for so long, maybe your/their entire life they are still capable of surprising you.  I have two brothers, and older and a younger, we've virtually the same upbringing, same highs and lows, but other than our aesthetic similarities we are nothing alike.

Yes we've all had truama and euphoria, but how can you possibly define "if you do not breathe, eat, drink, f*ck, sleep or ... excrete properly"?
Properly? I have delt with lack of sleep and f*ck since joining the military, but it has not yet made a mark, there are folks back home, living on the streets that are more emotionally sound than a successfull businessman.

Surely life is what you make it, if you don't have a strong sense of will it'll be hard yes, but it's not who you are underneath, but what you do that define you.

Why Leela shuns Fry, I'll never know. Is it that she is arrogant, "he has nothing to offer, so sod him" or afraid of her own feelings? Remember when the alternate realities where different by the flip of a coin? Is she so indecisive that she would lay her future to fate rather than take resposiblity for her own actions?

I see no end to this topic.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #311 on: 11-13-2006 08:50 »


 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1 in the Ship Harder thread:
Shiny - So now I finally know what women find adorable in men. The ability to put up with being walked all over by women.

[Being provocative - but can Shiny resist ?]

 
Quote
No, you goose. It's the ability to be endlessly optimistic. (*Shiny slaps hand to forehead*) Oy, vey....

... and it goes on and on...

Truth is, thanks to ColdAngel, we all got a glimpse into Shiny's Temple of Fry  smile

There is no denying that Leela would attempt to change Fry if they were together - remember how she loved that chickenwire dummy in Love and Rocket. There is no denying that Leela is domineering - however Fry will rather bend (and, given time, bounce back) than buckle. Leela is intelligent and has a strong character (well that is ther mask she puts on most of the time anyway). However, Fry is something else. He appears to be this normal, somewhat idiotic boy, but he is in fact 1000 years (approx) older than her and (of course, yaaawn) lacks the famous delta brainwaves. I am quite sure Leela does not fully understand Fry and she probably never will - but hey, that means she will never tire of him  smile.

I guess Shiny has said most of everythinbg else...good on you. Just don't fall asleep at the wheel.

coldangel

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« Reply #312 on: 11-13-2006 09:05 »

Leels ought to give him more credit for how he gets by.
Consider - someone from the year 1000 reanimated in our time would likely die of shock and horror. There'd be no way they could understand anything of what goes on here and now, let alone adapt to it.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #313 on: 11-13-2006 18:54 »

[On why Leela was ready to give up everything to be with Fry in The Sting]
 
Quote
Posted by KitKatBar-Fry:
Look at this one too-She was willing to give up everything she had, everything she loved to be with him.

[Pic of Leela ready to abandon the waking world]

What I find truly emotional as well is that this is set after Leela finds her parents. She would even lose them to be together with Fry.
Didja ever notice that?

So, what did she have at that point? And why did she not seek her parents' help ?. And how this relates to real world?

Well I can give you my two cents. Did it never happen to you to be really depressed - even thinking of ending it all (that's serious stuff I know, may I mention I am not financed by, or endorsing Stop and Drops) but did not want to or could not want to talk about it with anyone (maybe especially the parents), maybe for fear of being laughed at or whatever? (If your answer is NO, my reply is 'Just wait'). The reluctance to talk to anyone may even be self-preservation instinct you know - what if they do laugh, or say 'you're faking it', etc, and/or dare you to do it and thus in fact possibly push into doing it? Now you would not do it 'to show them', it sounds stupid and childish, but when you're hanging in the balance a little nudge is all it takes; the subconscious works in misterious ways. Ok, that is my point of view.

Sooo... so for whatever reason, parents are out. What else is left? Slowly slipping into madness, unbearable guilt? LOVE, finally breaking through when she realised what she had lost? And I come back to my dilemma: How much Love, and how much Guilt?

But regardles,, the choice seems much easier to me - TAKE THE HONEY. It's too late now. Join The One for You in whatever form. (of crs this is BEFORE Fry spoke to her from the picture)

Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #314 on: 11-13-2006 19:15 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by FENIX:
Well, that's all good and true, but...

Trying to generalise the emotions and feelings of others is a tricky business, there have been many circumstances I'm sure where a friend or person you've known all your life does something.... out of character should we say, and although you've known them for so long, maybe your/their entire life they are still capable of surprising you.  I have two brothers, and older and a younger, we've virtually the same upbringing, same highs and lows, but other than our aesthetic similarities we are nothing alike.

Yes we've all had truama and euphoria, but how can you possibly define "if you do not breathe, eat, drink, f*ck, sleep or ... excrete properly"?
Properly? I have delt with lack of sleep and f*ck since joining the military, but it has not yet made a mark, there are folks back home, living on the streets that are more emotionally sound than a successfull businessman.

Surely life is what you make it, if you don't have a strong sense of will it'll be hard yes, but it's not who you are underneath, but what you do that define you.

I see no end to this topic.

Finding the end is not the purpose  smile

But seriously, I believe that Pyramid is not a recipe but rather guidance, and rather loose guidance. When I applied it to Leela you could already see there were cracks in the Pyramid if you saw it in a very rigid way. Also I believe that pyramid refers to an 'average' - i.e. I am sure there are people living on the streets that are more emotionally sane that a wealthy industrialist  smile but statistically, are most of the poeple living on the streets like that ? Or do they mainly worry what they are going to eat / where are they going to sleep tommorrow (not mentioning sex here) ?

So of course the Pyramid is an attempt to generalize and generate a theory - an interesting theory, but not the only one. And there will always be individualism, no matter what - look at Bender and Flexo  smile

Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #315 on: 11-13-2006 22:12 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by FENIX:
Trying to generalise the emotions and feelings of others is a tricky business...a friend or person you've known all your life ...[is] still capable of surprising you.

Totally true.  It is not wise to do it to real people...but fictional characters are fair game.  (Kids, don't try this at home.  We're experienced amateurs.   wink)

 
Quote
how can you possibly define "if you do not breathe, eat, drink, f*ck, sleep or ... excrete properly"?

With breating, eating, sleeping and excreting, it's not whether or not you get to do them "properly," but "at all." Also you can get "just enough" of any of them to keep from dying, without it being actually enough to reach or maintain actual good health.

As for the sex part, I would put that higher up on the pyramid...it's the one primal drive that our personal survival is not tied to....but I wouldn't move it up TOO high, because it is, well, primal - hardwired into us, so to speak.

 
Quote
I see no end to this topic.

The lesson is not in the destination, but in the journey.    cool


And I'm sincerely praying for your quick return home in hale and wholly healthy condition, Fenix.  Deep emotions are NOT for dangerous times/places.  Take care of yourself, okay?

Shiny
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #316 on: 11-13-2006 22:29 »
« Last Edit on: 11-14-2006 00:00 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by FENIX:
... Is she so indecisive that she would lay her future to fate rather than take resposiblity for her own actions?...

THAT is a good point. Apparently (so I've been told) women do that sometimes; what's even more strange (or scary), is that what happens in Futurama's Universe 1 (the first alternate) also may happen in real life, i.e. sometimes women do find lifetime partners this way. Still, it's frightening and it intrigues me. But the entire Parabox part referring to the Fry / Leela relationship frustrates me terribly - and I mean the exposure of Leela's behaviour towards Fry, the coin flipping, and especially what she has apparently missed by pushing back Fry. (If only the fact that because of the coin flip, poor Fry got beaten up at that Concert by Scrunchy...)

Also,... can you see it coming?  Who? SHINY! DUCK !!!


[EDIT] No, no... wait .. false alarm... Shiny must be sleeping like a log... so go on and criticise Leela while you can people   smile
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #317 on: 11-13-2006 22:50 »

I don't flip coins, but I do tend to go with the flow of random quirks of fate because I can't be bothered (or often feel it is not my place) to impose my own will on the course of events. Things happen to me and I react to them, more often than not responding without any real thought - just taking random stabs in the dark.
It makes life more interesting.
So it's not just women who do this.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #318 on: 11-14-2006 05:14 »
« Last Edit on: 11-14-2006 05:14 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
...
Consider - someone from the year 1000 reanimated in our time would likely die of shock and horror. There'd be no way they could understand anything of what goes on here and now, let alone adapt to it.

... Calling all Futurama fans (and CA, you're first    smile )...Would you like to wake up in a thousand years, knowing that you may well be dead within secs? Would you ? Would you like to see what lay ahead when otherwise there would be NO way to know ? Ok, there may be a beautiful (mind, or soul - or both!) stone-hearted man / woman waiting for you and a whole new world that yes, may drive you insane... or semi-instant death (but say you still got a glimpse of the future, else it would be too boring).

Would you like to see the world through Fry's eyes ?

?

coldangel

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« Reply #319 on: 11-14-2006 05:19 »

I am a futurist, so yes.
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