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Author Topic: Deep Down: Fry and Leela Soul Searching  (Read 25815 times)
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Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #160 on: 11-08-2006 06:05 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2006 06:05 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Leela doesn't know/remember the info about the delta brainwave.

By God - you could be right, Roswell happened after Cyberhouse... Still she could accomodate some of his childish aspects considering that in serious situations he always does the right thing and that is what matters.

Was there a saying somewhere that in marriage the woman should firstly understand and then try to love the man, while the man should firstly love the woman and then not try to understand her? Now where did I see that ? 

Ok I hereby release that fanfic use, regardless   smile
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #161 on: 11-08-2006 06:44 »

"The interaction of men and women isn't very logical."
- Ritsuko Akagi, from 'Neon Genesis Evangelion'.
Cyberphobia

Bending Unit
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« Reply #162 on: 11-08-2006 07:37 »

This is really random but seeing as Fry_B mentioned 'The Cyberhouse Rules', why is that episode called that? I'm probably forgetting some obvious straightforward explanation.
FENIX

Bending Unit
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« Reply #163 on: 11-08-2006 07:40 »

Soul mates, PAH! The only two soul mates I know are me left n right boots.
coldangel

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« Reply #164 on: 11-08-2006 07:40 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2006 07:40 by coldangel_1 »

Aside from being a pun on the movie title 'The Cider House Rules'? I don't know.

EDIT: Haha, boots... soul = sole... ha. Took me a minute to get that, stupidly.
FENIX

Bending Unit
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« Reply #165 on: 11-08-2006 07:50 »

But.... "it theory, all things are possible that are not impossible, no matter how improbable" Dr. Schultz.

And not to mention "Once you have removed the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

So In sum aspects it's easy to see how all the good looking girls end up with complete morons who abuse them, or maybe it's the fact that they do it coz they are much smarter than their counterparts and laugh themselves to sleep each night.
coldangel

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« Reply #166 on: 11-08-2006 07:52 »

As Joe Jackson said: "Pretty women out walking with gorillas down my street... from my window I'm staring while my coffee goes cold."

Heh... gorillas...
FENIX

Bending Unit
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« Reply #167 on: 11-08-2006 08:23 »

Good similarity, they do drag their knuckles though don't they.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #168 on: 11-08-2006 08:51 »

Most people are attracted to those who treat them like crap...because we are attracted to the relationships we're used to from childhood, and most childhoods suck.

Fry_B, Leela doesn't remember the Delta brainwave thing because the Nibblonians told her and her umemory of that is gone...even though she does know that Fry is his own grandfather, she wouldn't be aware of the effect on Fry's brain this had.


And Chaz is without doubt the worst of Leela's love interests...my take on why she was impressed with him at all was that it wasn't just that Chaz was throwing his importance around, but that he was throwing his importance around specifically to impress Leela.  They both said it in so many words: "I'm trying to impress you with my importance!"  "I know.  And it's working."  Leela knew what he was doing but was still charmed because he was doing it (she thought) for HER sake. 

It's a scientific fact that when we're infatuated, the parts of our brains that process criticism and assessment actually slow down functioning - we become physically less able to judge things objectively.  While Leela thought Chaz was doing all this for her, she was temporarily blind to his faults.

However...if Chaz had REALLY cared about impressing Leela, he'd have let the orphans skate purely because Leela asked him to.  By explaining how much it would mean to the orphans, Leela was inadvertantly revealing how much it would mean to her, too.  Anyone who really cared what she thought would have let the orphans in whether they cared or not.

But Chaz was neither kind to small children, NOR really interested in pleasing Leela - he just liked "being important," and any bimbo would have served as an audience for him.  Ultimately it was the act of showing off, not the woman he was showing off to, that he cared about - he wasn't impressing her, he was just impressing himself. 

Realizing that, the temporary veil over her eyes was lifted (her critical brain started functioning again), and Leela saw him for the self-absorbed jerk he really was.  And he literally choked on his own importantce (heh!).

coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #169 on: 11-08-2006 09:09 »

Even so, it seems a but callow and superficial to be impressed by a guy just because he's important.
Fry lined up for hours to get a ticket for her to go on the ice rink, but she was more impressed by Chaz because he was important enough not to have to. The point she missed there was the question - if he didn't have influence, would Chaz have lined up for hours? I doubt it. She's got one guy who will go to massive lengths to do something nice for her, and she's more interested in the other guy because he doesn't need to.   HUH??
Even though the episode had a sweet ending, that glaring problem with Leela's priorities/values doesn't really get addressed. She loses her interest in him only because he was mean to some kids, not because she realized that his power and influence were actually meaningless. For all we know after the end of that episode she still has those same messed-up values.
Stezzy

Crustacean
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« Reply #170 on: 11-08-2006 11:29 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Even so, it seems a but callow and superficial to be impressed by a guy just because he's important.
Fry lined up for hours to get a ticket for her to go on the ice rink, but she was more impressed by Chaz because he was important enough not to have to. The point she missed there was the question - if he didn't have influence, would Chaz have lined up for hours? I doubt it. She's got one guy who will go to massive lengths to do something nice for her, and she's more interested in the other guy because he doesn't need to.   HUH??
Even though the episode had a sweet ending, that glaring problem with Leela's priorities/values doesn't really get addressed. She loses her interest in him only because he was mean to some kids, not because she realized that his power and influence were actually meaningless. For all we know after the end of that episode she still has those same messed-up values.

I agree, she still has those quite shallow values. I think it comes down to her upbringing and insecurity as she might well find it easier to become attracted to someone powerful and self important as it's more tangible than letting herself open up to herself on a deeper level and consquently fall in love with Fry. I guess she always thinks she can do better than Fry because she's scared of committing to him and going by love/emotions alone.
LuvFry

Bending Unit
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« Reply #171 on: 11-08-2006 13:48 »

It all boils down to fear. Fry is the best relationship with a guy Leela has ever had. If they were to be romantic, it would change, heck, it might end! What would she do without her best friend? (She certainly couldn't cry on Bender's shoulder, he might rust) She'd much rather keep things the same than risk losing their relationship.

Also, if people do in fact search for relationships that are closer to how they were treated in their childhood, and relationships that are closer to the relationship that they had with their parent of the opposite sex, then don't her "messed-up values" make perfect sense? The only father that she knew was the director of the orphanarium. We can see from flashbacks to her childhood that he wasn't around much, and from conversations about her childhood that he wasn't exactly what we'd call compassionate. Shouldn't she be searching for some one who mostly ignores and insults her, some one who treats her like crap?
 
Writer unit32

Professor
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« Reply #172 on: 11-08-2006 14:03 »

Hahahahhahha,so Leela's just crazy!I lost a big part of my life sitting at the computer and that didn't stop me from getting all I want(except a scanner) and being a ultimate robot fighter(in case you didn't read my user-name, I'm a writer unit).
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #173 on: 11-08-2006 14:30 »

Fear stems from believing that you won't be able the situation if something bad occurs. Leela is not afraid of dating jerks because she can handle it, all she has to do it dump the bastards. But if she were to date Fry, she doesn't believe she'll be able to handle it if things go bad with Fry since things are more at stake and she can't just dump him like that.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #174 on: 11-08-2006 17:31 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2006 17:31 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Even so, it seems a but callow and superficial to be impressed by a guy just because he's important.
Fry lined up for hours to get a ticket for her to go on the ice rink, but she was more impressed by Chaz because he was important enough not to have to. [...] She's got one guy who will go to massive lengths to do something nice for her, and she's more interested in the other guy because he doesn't need to.   HUH??
Even though the episode had a sweet ending, that glaring problem with Leela's priorities/values doesn't really get addressed. She loses her interest in him only because he was mean to some kids, not because she realized that his power and influence were actually meaningless. For all we know after the end of that episode she still has those same messed-up values.

Re Shiny's post, the effect of infatuation on our critical thinking is clearly there - I belive we all agree on that, some of us probably already experienced it... I know I have, the wake-up part of it is rather unpleasant        hmpf of course, some of that was programmed in our brains in order to increase the chances of species survival...you know what I mean...

Chaz being mean to the orphans struck me as a bit forced - he (and Leela) knew  very well what he was doing, it was working... He also clearly wanted to 'get lucky'. Either he became too self-absorbed with his ego in the end (although he was really close to getting what he wanted) or simply the writer pushed this saga too far in time, the end of the episode was nigh and things really needed to get back to the original state - Chaz really did not warrant a permanent change in the Futurama universe. So they simply made him do something really mean and then top it up by also being rude - is this not a classical line that brings on slaps or other dramatic gestures? "Am I going to get lucky or what" - charming, hey.

Fry HAD to be miserable in this episode, and the writer managed that very well, on all fronts, whether Fry was present to see what was happening or it was left to us to witness it (and depending of your blood type, to boil over or just nod 'oh yeah! that's eet, - just do him in the rink, you...*censored*') Leela did not protest even one little bit when Chaz called Fry a loser - if being a loser meant (ColdAngel dixit) going to great lengths to do something nice for you, then you have a problem.

(EDIT Log: Possible sexist remark taken out, pics added)
 

'Confidentially,...'


One of Fry's darkest hours
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #175 on: 11-08-2006 19:37 »
« Last Edit on: 11-08-2006 19:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
.... Leela is not afraid of dating jerks because she can handle it, all she has to do it dump the bastards. But if she were to date Fry, she doesn't believe she'll be able to handle it if things go bad with Fry since things are more at stake and she can't just dump him like that.

AppleTea, LuvFry - I agreed to that in page 3 - only I said it in a lot more words   smile

...
She is strongly attracted to him (I refer to later episodes here!) and she knows (and we hope!) her love will grow hot and deep... If Fry dumps her, this passion will not die; it never does when it's that intense. It will turn into Hate.

And there's another idea for a fanfic - see who's got the guts to take it up:

Fry & Leela get together; Leela gives in to Love and Passion, all her defenses dropped, she goes all the way - in your face, wasted years, fears, humiliation... and then something goes wrong. Fry ends the relationship. It may have to do with the Nibblonians and saving the Universe and The Other... But he HAS to choose between the entire Universe being destroyed and him having to part with Leela at the climax of their love. So, the options are 1)refuse to break up with Leela and die happy taking the Universe with them, or 2) save the day and live the rest of his life in misery.
After being torn apart by the choice he has to make and desperately trying to find a way out to no avail, he decides to save the Universe - sadly, this is above him and Leela. Of course, he is not allowed to remember the reason why he dumped Leela (Nibblonians are known to blank people's minds for fun) so in the end he is consumed by what he has done and not knowing
WHY he has done it (TKOS-like).

Leela? She never gets to know
WHY, for her it is only Fry getting tired of her or some jerk-related reason. All old demons are back, worst fears realised. She tries to evade and forget Fry, but it is impossible. The self-preservation instinct prevents Leela from taking her own life or escaping into space bee honey-induced coma; so just as Fry, she has to go on. HOWEVER, the passion is still there, too intense to die. So it transforms. She now HATES him with a passion.

And from here on... you're on. I am not sure I want to continue.


It would be a fairly dark fic... on tragic destinies and ultimate passion destroying human beings. A canon episode like this would no doubt trigger collective suicides...and be banned.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #176 on: 11-08-2006 20:39 »

Yeah... what you all said.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #177 on: 11-08-2006 21:22 »

Actually, Chaz didn't call Fry a loser.  He called him "a nobody."  The issue in the episode was importance...and Leela clearly has a thing for guys with social standing.  Which seems a bit OOC for her, until you think about it...may I direct your attention to Exhibit A: "You're worthless and no one will ever love you!"  (Warden whatshisname) Plus the taunting from the other kids and the clearly low expectations of success directed toward the orphans.

Now, many someones told Leela that she was unimportant, unloved, and would never amount to anything.  Leela is determined to defy that pronouncement in her choice of partner, if nothing else (and given her lackluster career as a Cryogenics Counselor, she probably concluded that "nothing else" was a given.  Also, women are encouraged to seek second-hand success through a relationship to a man...even, it seems, in the future... *sigh* ). 

If someone who is important and successful can love her, Leela will feel validated as a person.  It's sad and disfunctional, but it's easy to see why that particular pathology would be one of Leela's flaws.  Her compulsive determination to succeed all the time is also a huge giveaway...no one who is confident in themselves would be so driven to be "the best" at everything, as she is.

That's not all Leela wants from a man...the unseen "Sean" clearly wasn't a big success or anything, and she was still attracted to him...but part of her would still like to prove the Warden, the other orphans, and the world in general wrong, and show them that she IS worthy of the love of an important, successful person. 

Now, Parallel Leela's love for her Fry shows that this is not an obstacle to their relationship in the end...but our Leela still has to get over that mountain (I suspect that "magical date" just took Leela B past it in a kind of an end-run manuever...our Leela is going to have to climb over it the hard way and get to the other side).

Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #178 on: 11-08-2006 22:07 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Now, Parallel Leela's love for her Fry shows that this is not an obstacle to their relationship in the end...but our Leela still has to get over that mountain (I suspect that "magical date" just took Leela B past it in a kind of an end-run manuever...our Leela is going to have to climb over it the hard way and get to the other side).


Eh, I don't think Parallel Leela is that valid an example.  As she said, she always flipped a coin when she didn't know what to decide on, and she's been doing that for 30 yrs(Is that her age?).  Who knows what decisions she has made, it may have altered her perspectives quite a bit.
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #179 on: 11-08-2006 22:29 »
« Last Edit on: 11-09-2006 00:00 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Actually, Chaz didn't call Fry a loser.  He called him "a nobody."  The issue in the episode was importance...

Mea culpa. Still if I realised I would have used nobody and still write that.

   
Quote
Leela is determined to defy that pronouncement in her choice of partner, if nothing else [...]  Also, women are encouraged to seek second-hand success through a relationship to a man...even, it seems, in the future... *sigh* ).

Hmmm.. it depends on the culture. Amazingly enough, in Eastern Europe, Iran, even Iraq, women are raised to be the equal of men careerwise. I talk average here, not isolated cases. E.g. the percentage of females choosing a career in mechanical,... etc engineering (for example) in those areas is much larger than, for example, Germany, England, Australia (don't know abt US). During the commie years (and e.g. in the Middle East, the Saddam years), equality was enforced - you know, that is not always a bad thing - women were given the chance to use their brain rather than their body to advance their careers. (Before you jump up and down, let me say this issue is complex, in some cultures you did / do need an iron fist to defeat ingrained prejudice and force equal opportunity)

Of course there's always the Single Female Lawyer / Having Lots of Sex...    smile

   
Quote
...
If someone who is important and successful can love her, Leela will feel validated as a person. 

Yes.. In fact, a very plausible explanation, thank you for that.

   
Quote
That's not all Leela wants from a man...the unseen "Sean" clearly wasn't a big success or anything, and she was still attracted to him...but part of her would still like to prove the Warden, the other orphans, and the world in general wrong, and show them that she IS worthy of the love of an important, successful person. 

I wonder what is the underlying reason for which Leela likes artists so much (beautiful souls) - could it be something similar to the importance issue ?

   
Quote
Now, Parallel Leela's love for her Fry shows that this is not an obstacle to their relationship in the end..

I wish, but unfortunately that alternate Universe was not the future...so it does not necessarily mean that they will end up together. it rather shows that they can very much be together There but for the flip of a coin go we... How much truth and sadness is in that sentence ? And Leela appears to sit there, oblivious to his remark. Maybe it's just the animation...



Does this pic not make you want to shake Leela and go "OI! WAKE UP! YOU WANT SOME OF THAT ? THEN QUIT TOSSING THAT GODDAMN COIN, D'YA HEAR ME AND GO GET HIM WHILE YOU'RE STILL ALIVE"
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #180 on: 11-08-2006 23:42 »

 
Quote
During the commie years (and e.g. in the Middle East, the Saddam years), equality was enforced

I keep telling everyone that Saddam wasn't so bad and that sometimes it's better the devil you know. But does anyone listen to COLDANGEL!? NOOO.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
no one who is confident in themselves would be so driven to be "the best" at everything,

Then I must be the most confident person in the UNIVERSE.   laff
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #181 on: 11-09-2006 02:08 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by LuvFry:
 If they were to be romantic, it would change, heck, it might end! What would she do without her best friend? (She certainly couldn't cry on Bender's shoulder, he might rust) She'd much rather keep things the same than risk losing their relationship.

But what is it about either of them that could end their romantic relationship and disintegrate their friendship? How could it all turn so horribly bad when they had this stable foundation?

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Now, many someones told Leela that she was unimportant, unloved, and would never amount to anything. Leela is determined to defy that pronouncement in her choice of partner, if nothing else.

- Which is silly because then it wouldn't be her who is successful, she'd just be a tag-along. And none of those men she was with had many qualities for which, say, if she were to be seen in public with them, the view would be one of success (well, aside from a quick glance). Perhaps with Fry it might look the same, but at least when they got home he wouldn't be making her fix dinner, just using her for sex or ignoring her completely. Surely an inner success is more rewarding than one based on the perception of those around you? Leela seems a bit self-centred there...
coldangel

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« Reply #182 on: 11-09-2006 02:17 »

Re: romantic relationship ending pre-existing friendship...
 - Not if they were mature about it. And Fry wouldn't be that way inclined anyway. He'd be there for her no matter what.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #183 on: 11-09-2006 02:17 »
« Last Edit on: 11-09-2006 02:17 »

Originally intended as a reply to any1else, but it works in response to coldangel's post, too

Shall I define "dysfunctional" for you?    tongue 
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #184 on: 11-09-2006 02:28 »

Anyone ever watch Seinfield?  He hangs around his old girlfriend and they seem fine, though that is only a show...

 
Quote
- Which is silly because then it wouldn't be her who is successful, she'd just be a tag-along. And none of those men she was with had many qualities for which, say, if she were to be seen in public with them, the view would be one of success (well, aside from a quick glance). Perhaps with Fry it might look the same, but at least when they got home he wouldn't be making her fix dinner, just using her for sex or ignoring her completely. Surely an inner success is more rewarding than one based on the perception of those around you? Leela seems a bit self-centred there...
Our goals and beliefs are shaped by societal influnces.  Leela grew up in a world where she was constantly shunned by her peers.  Hence she tries to get acceptance by having an outward appearance of success because people tend to look up to and admire successful people.
coldangel

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« Reply #185 on: 11-09-2006 02:30 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
Anyone ever watch Seinfield?  He hangs around his old girlfriend and they seem fine, though that is only a show...

You'll find that Futurama is also only a show, however much we may like to believe otherwise.
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #186 on: 11-09-2006 02:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
Our goals and beliefs are shaped by societal influnces.  Leela grew up in a world where she was constantly shunned by her peers.  Hence she tries to get acceptance by having an outward appearance of success because people tend to look up to and admire successful people.

Yes, but it hasn't worked out for her so far. What is it with fictional characters and not putting things together until they have one of those "Eureka!" moments...
coldangel

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« Reply #187 on: 11-09-2006 02:39 »

Hey! I'm a fictional character! Don't go lumping us all together...
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #188 on: 11-09-2006 02:44 »

The professor should invent an epiphany gun
coldangel

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« Reply #189 on: 11-09-2006 03:25 »

Leela: "I'm sorry you had to see that, Fry. Usually I keep my sadness pent up inside where it can fester quietly as a mental illness."
Fry: "Yeah. That's what I do with my stupidness."

Leela acknowledges her own fucked-upness.
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #190 on: 11-09-2006 04:48 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Hey! I'm a fictional character! Don't go lumping us all together...
Well I'm imaginary, which is fictional anyway. And I'll lump all I want. You get out.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Apple Tea:
The professor should invent an epiphany gun
Haha, I just watched the episode of Scrubs the other day where they had an epiphany toilet.
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #191 on: 11-09-2006 05:09 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Leela: "I'm sorry you had to see that, Fry. Usually I keep my sadness pent up inside where it can fester quietly as a mental illness."
Fry: "Yeah. That's what I do with my stupidness."

Leela acknowledges her own fucked-upness.
I thought everyone did this...
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #192 on: 11-09-2006 05:20 »

Everyone acknowledges their own faults? Only if they realise they have them. But even then...
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #193 on: 11-09-2006 05:36 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Re: romantic relationship ending pre-existing friendship...
 - Not if they were mature about it. And Fry wouldn't be that way inclined anyway. He'd be there for her no matter what.

If passion were involved ... and how mature can they be - they're in their thirties, ok, Leela can be mature, Fry,...err...missing delta brainwave... Seriously now, the Seinfeld example confirms my view because really, Jerry wasn't in love with Elaine and it was a one night stand (not even, he could not get it up  smile ). But if passion were involved (and I see Leela very capable of that)... there is no way things would be the same if the 'ship failed - see my post before...
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #194 on: 11-09-2006 06:11 »

"If those aren't tears of happiness, please stop crying."
Aww... He seems genuinely concerned.

I don't get the passion thing. Excuse my ignorance.
So, if the passion fizzled out, or it led to some crazy fight, it would cross out everything?
Apple Tea

Bending Unit
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« Reply #195 on: 11-09-2006 06:19 »

I say Leela should just go for it, if things don't work out she can just go back to the cryogenics lab and unfreeze another delivery boy to her liking...
Fry_B

Bending Unit
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« Reply #196 on: 11-09-2006 06:43 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by any1else:
"If those aren't tears of happiness, please stop crying."
Aww... He seems genuinely concerned.

I don't get the passion thing. Excuse my ignorance.
So, if the passion fizzled out, or it led to some crazy fight, it would cross out everything?


If Leela grew to love Fry deeply, if Fry was finally able to fully understand and express his love for Leela....and they would be able to fully and passionately love each other...  climax... very bright light...

That won't 'fizzle out'. If it will somehow fail, it will go out with a BIG BANG and you'll get a black hole that'll suck both into insanity... ColdAngel, would you care to explain, this is dark stuff and you excel in that area...
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #197 on: 11-09-2006 06:58 »
« Last Edit on: 11-09-2006 06:58 by coldangel_1 »

Passion is like energy - it cannot be created or destroyed (thermodynamics, kids   smile ), it can only change form. The failure of great passion sees it change to bitterness and resentment, because the presence of a great mass of *something* cannot suddenly cease without causing backlash. Positive to negative, or an intense vacuum.

Perhaps physics isn't the best metaphor...

How 'bout biology?
Healthy love is like perfect cell mitosis. Continually dividing, blooming, replenishing. When it goes bad it doesn't just stop - the cell division becomes uncontrolled - mutated cells begin dividing at an accellerated rate, their genetic encoding corrupted. They begin spreading out and poisoning healthy flesh. This is cancer.
In order for life to bloom, cells must divide, but with every cell division there comes the risk of an error in the replication process, and a compounding of that error over and over until the entire organism is rife with tumours and it dies bleeding from the anus.

See what I mean?
any1else

Space Pope
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« Reply #198 on: 11-09-2006 07:08 »

So...passion takes over all logical thought and creates things that aren't really there just to make things interesting?
coldangel

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« Reply #199 on: 11-09-2006 07:10 »

*shrugs*
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