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Author Topic: The Loooovenasium (Or, the Intelligent, Long-Winded Shipper Thread, Part II)  (Read 14077 times)
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coldangel

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« Reply #160 on: 10-18-2006 07:30 »
« Last Edit on: 10-18-2006 07:30 by coldangel_1 »

More sexism?

It might also be because I have never had a proper relationship and have no idea how it's supposed to work, an ignorance completely unrelated to my gender.
This is very close to the case, though 'out of clothes and into bed' was my metaphor for the beginning of a consummated fully-fledged relationship. The absence of such, however, would not leave him dispirited if he'd managed to make her happy, and because he loves her that would be enough.

Getting a bit sick of the bloke-bashing to be honest. If I was making a lot of derogatory and generalized comments about women I'd cop a crapload of flack for it - I'd get called a mysoginist. Why is it okay when it's the other way around?
If you're allowed to infer that all men are brutish slobs who have no feelings and are only looking for sex, then does that mean I can say all women are slutty temptresses who belong in the kitchen? It's the same damn thing - and I *am* rather offended.

EDIT: that stuff about women was just an example - I would never say that because I think such sentiment is repugnant.
Bending Unit 99

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« Reply #161 on: 10-18-2006 07:52 »
« Last Edit on: 10-18-2006 07:52 »

well it seems someone touched a nerve here, an especially sensitive one, but frankly i don't care what women say about men, because usually it's because they've had a bad experience with one man before, and then they judge us all the same

don't listen to 'em coldangel
coldangel

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« Reply #162 on: 10-18-2006 08:10 »

They can say what they like about *me*, I'd most likely agree with 'em. It's just the broad, sweeping statements that I'd like to stop. That ain't fair.
LuvFry

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« Reply #163 on: 10-18-2006 08:38 »

Allow me to apologize for our behavior. We didn't mean to upset you.
coldangel

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« Reply #164 on: 10-18-2006 08:55 »

Eh? Oh... I don't care about that now. That was nearly 15 minutes ago.
any1else

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« Reply #165 on: 10-18-2006 09:00 »

The almighty coldangel cares about general statements of a species he resents being part of?   eek

Arr, funny how television shows open up so many avenues.

I'd stick up for the males, but I haven't encountered many, and I'm biased on not liking females' attitudes because I am one, plus tonight my dad just showed a sexist attitude about thinking my mum should have something for dinner ready for us when she's going to be working overnight. I pointed it out to him though..

Anywho, I guess I can understand Leela being unsure about what Fry's intentions are, but damnit, if she just sat and watched the show herself...
coldangel

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« Reply #166 on: 10-18-2006 11:05 »

I shall ignore your subtle depreciations because you referred to me by my proper title. Just remember in future though that you're supposed to capitalize 'The' and 'Almighty'.
jle1993

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« Reply #167 on: 10-18-2006 14:01 »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, wait...you were serious?

The Almighty Pompous Coldangel
KitKatBar-Fry

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« Reply #168 on: 10-18-2006 16:28 »

Hehe, you know I'm not really angry at all, colddemon_1.  tongue
Actually, I quite thank you for bringing it up, as it gave me something to post about. Nothing against you men, just jokes. 'S all cool.
Professor Zoidy

Urban Legend
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« Reply #169 on: 10-18-2006 22:05 »

About the Alkazar pic: I never noticed Fry stopped eating. He really cares. that, or he spaced out.... But we know he cares.  big grin
Shiny

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« Reply #170 on: 10-19-2006 02:33 »

...and by the way, where is Xanfor lately?

 confused

Rats.  Guess he's got technical difficulties again. 
coldangel

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« Reply #171 on: 10-19-2006 02:45 »

Here's a question - hes Leela ever shown any indication, however subtle, that she might be *physically* attracted to Fry?
Bending Unit 99

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« Reply #172 on: 10-19-2006 02:54 »

*ponder* *thinking* *thinking*
well lately ive been watching the whole series again, im done and the only thing i picked up was in the why of fry when she rests on him, if you can really call that "physical" attraction
any1else

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« Reply #173 on: 10-19-2006 04:05 »

Doesn't physical attraction come with attraction in general? As in, she'd be physically attracted to him because she's attracted to him as a person?
coldangel

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« Reply #174 on: 10-19-2006 05:03 »

How very wholistic of you, Maz. You see the biological organism and the spirit/personality as components of the whole to be viewed together?
any1else

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« Reply #175 on: 10-19-2006 05:17 »

Yes. I think.
Is that wrong?
'Cause I can change my answer.
Y'know, phone a friend.

I just figure that the whole 'physical' attraction can't be the only thing to go by. I mean, some animals make themselves all prettiful to attract prey, which I suppose you could say is the same case for many human females.  laff So as far as I'm concerned, attraction should be something that grows, not something akin to 'love at first sight'. Fry didn't (visibly) immediately find Leela attractive anymore than she did him.
coldangel

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« Reply #176 on: 10-19-2006 05:35 »

He did actually, until she turned around, and then he was a bit distracted.

I can't figure out if you just contridicted yourself or not... many folk closer-to-the-earth, ie Pagans and such, and occasionally some of them other 'your body is a temple' type of nuts would have us believe the physical form is an extension of the soul and a part of it, every bit as important. I don't really hold to that because it kind of implies that a person with a physical disibility must therefor have a disabled soul. Maybe I've interpreted that wrong, but in any case to me the human body is just a slab of meat.

Regardless, I do like the look of those female slabs of meat. And that to me is quite seperate to attraction I have to a woman's mind. After all - a multiple amputee covered in third degree burns can still have a beautiful soul... as could a freakish mutant cyclops with an eye the size of a grapefruit. I think the two kinds of attraction are largely unrelated.
any1else

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« Reply #177 on: 10-19-2006 05:54 »

I contradict myself a lot. It's because I'm an observer, never a participant, so all my understandings come from interpretation of a mixture of things, and I always change my mind...

"He did actually, until she turned around, and then he was a bit distracted."
Exactly, it wasn't sustained, and he wasn't lusting after her for the rest of that time. He got attracted to her through their experiences together.

The human body is just a slab of meat. It's programmed in us though to appeal to more attractive 'on the outside' people and I hate that. That's why I do my best to ignore it. Peoples' attractiveness can change without any physical alteration occuring. You find someone physically attractive because you're attracted to the whole. Does this make any sense  confused, I feel like I'm rambling and I've lost what I'm meant to be saying. This is how I get off-topic so I shall cease typing...now.
Bending Unit 99

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« Reply #178 on: 10-19-2006 06:22 »

it does make sense actually, and its the truth for most people
Shiny

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« Reply #179 on: 10-19-2006 08:41 »

Hmm...at the risk of reopening the “sexism” debate, I have to say that I believe physical gender is a factor here... Biologically, male brains seem to be more “hardwired” toward an immediate physical “attractive/not attractive” assessment, while females make a more wholistic assessment...like Edna discovered on Decapod 10, an attractive personality trait can make a male seem more physically attractive even though he hasn’t physically changed at all. 

Women, of course, CAN have an immediate physical reaction to a good bod or a pretty face (humans in general are hardwired to respond to "pretty" faces, no matter what gender), and men CAN learn to see women they get to know and like as more attractive than they first thought...it's the "first reactions" that seem to be split into two basic approaches (with variations, of course, because biology just likes to mix things up a bit...still, the averages show a distinct gender split in this matter).

I'd elaborate, but I gotta go to work (bleah).
coldangel

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« Reply #180 on: 10-19-2006 09:35 »

I wrote a really big long vehement rebuttal to that but then deleted it because I don't want to turn this thread into a garbage can and it wouldn't have changed your prejudice anyway.
To sum it up, you're wrong and you're being politically-incorrect. I do not fit into the mindless sex-addict category you've described... and furthermore I know numerous WOMEN who do!

But never mind.

The name 'Turunga Leela' is a reference to 'Turangalîla-Symphonie' by Olivier Messiaen. Messiaen stated that the title of the piece derived from two Sanskrit words, turanga and lîla, together meaning something like "love song and hymn of joy, time, movement, rhythm, life, and death."
Makes her sound like some kind of Earth Goddess - source of all life, who was born underground. Perhaps related to Nibbler's title for her.  Leela as 'The Other' along with Fry as the 'Mighty One' might parallel the Wiccan/Pagan concept of the Goddess with her consort the Horned God (The spikey bits on Fry's hair resemble horns).
Within many traditions of Wicca the Goddess is considered a universal deity, more in line with her description in the Charge of the Goddess, a key Wiccan and Pagan text. In this guise she is the "Queen of Heaven", similar to Isis; she also encompasses and conceives all life, much like Gaia. And also, like Isis and certain late Classical conceptions of Selene, she is held to be the summation of all other goddesses, who represent her different names and aspects across the different cultures.
And the Horned God, to whom I'm likening Fry, 'The Mighty One', is revered as the partner and/or child of the Goddess. Leela is both a romantic interest and a sort of motherly figure (she helps him live in the future world and saves him from all manner of crap). He is sometimes referred to as the "Great God" or the "Great Father". He impregnates the Goddess, and then dies during the autumn and winter months and is reborn in spring, while the Goddess lives on always as Mother Earth, giving life to the Horned God as he goes through the eternal cycle of life, death, and rebirth.

Could this hold any clue as to the nature of the Nibblonian prophesy re: The Mighty One and The Other?

Perhaps they are destined to have a child, and that child will be some kind of saviour.

Discuss.
any1else

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« Reply #181 on: 10-19-2006 10:07 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
I wrote a really big long vehement rebuttal to that but then deleted it because I don't want to turn this thread into a garbage can and it wouldn't have changed your prejudice anyway.
To sum it up, you're wrong and you're being politically-incorrect. I do not fit into the mindless sex-addict category you've described... and furthermore I know numerous WOMEN who do!
There was prejudice there? Sometimes I think you take things too personally...

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Perhaps they are destined to have a child, and that child will be some kind of saviour.

Discuss.

A saviour of what? A world over-run by technology?
coldangel

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« Reply #182 on: 10-19-2006 10:25 »

Everything is personal.

Saviour... I dunno. Just a saviour in general.
{{INSERT GENERIC THREAT TO THE UNIVERSE HERE}}
any1else

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« Reply #183 on: 10-19-2006 10:33 »

I'm sick of saviours. If they exist, they aren't doing a very good job.

Unless of course, you accomplish your ultimate goal by the early 3000's and become a giant robot, then perhaps Fry and Leela's saviour child will have its work cut out.
Ralph Snart

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« Reply #184 on: 10-19-2006 10:37 »

Hey Coldy, you're being a tad too thin-skinned.  I've known Shiny for quite a while - she and I have had our discussions on Leela:  The tolerant friend vs. Leela:  The cold hearted witch.  We've both had points and counterpoints, but I never took anything she said to me as being an attack.

She does have a point - most men do notice appearances first and other attributes later.  Women do too, but they use other factors to decide on whether or not to use their precious time in going out with a guy.  If you disagree with that, then it's just a matter of difference in opinions.

As for the name Turanga Leela, there are several puns for her name, the first being the one you mentioned.  The word lila is 'purple' in Spanish, so she got purple hair.  I'm sure that there are other factors involved in the construction of Leela, but I'm not aware of them at this point in time.

If you get the chance of reading Dave Vincent's fic, Background Noise, you'll see that he has touched on some of these ideas.  In his fic, the Nibblonians have arranged for Fry and Leela to meet.  Fry is the only person capable of fighting the Brainspawn, but needs to be protected from himself.  This is where Leela comes in - she is to be both his protector and his mate, but life being what it is, things just keep getting thrown in the way to keep things from happening as they should.

The Brainspawn attack every 10,000 years and Fry won't live that long - he and Leela will need to have children so that a descendant with the missing delta-wave will be around to fight the Brains when they rampage through the universe 10,000 years after they are defeated (and who's to say that the Brains are finished yet?)

Even if Fry didn't mate with Leela for the offspring, she's still his protector.  Even though he's saved her from herself a few times, she's protected him many times more.  They are a yin and yang - incomplete apart, but more than the sums of the parts when together.

That's my opinion, your milage may vary.
LuvFry

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« Reply #185 on: 10-19-2006 15:35 »

Neat. Here's my question:
How do you pronounce Leela's first name?
Turunga, Turanga, Turonga

This has been bothering me for a while, and so I figure, who better to ask then you guys? smile

Back to topic: It does seem that alot of people (including myself) seem to think that Leela's involvement as "the other" has to do with having Fry's kid. Of course, as someone else pointed out somewhere, the title may be referring to Leela's involvement in TDTESS. I hope not though. How much would it suck if "the other" thing was already over with, and we were all speculating about it for years? They wouldn't do that to us, though. (Would they? Suddenly I'm feeling quite paranoid) wink
KitKatBar-Fry

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« Reply #186 on: 10-19-2006 17:56 »

Hmm...You know, there's a fanfic at The Leela Zone (anyone wanna supply a link?) That kinda is like that. I think it's called 'The How of Fry' or 'The Day the earth stood in Doubt, one or the other.
Very observant, though. I myself have pondered the true meaning of that statement. Perhaps it has something to do with having Fry's kid, maybe she helps him beat the brainspawn, maybe she saves his life, ultimately saving the universe too....The possibilities are endless. I shall go sit in a corner now to think.
*thinks*
Screw that, I'll just wait till the episodes come out. But they still might not answer that question, although I really will cry if they don't.
coldangel

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« Reply #187 on: 10-19-2006 22:56 »
« Last Edit on: 10-19-2006 22:56 by coldangel_1 »

Ralph, the Yin-Yang analogy is apt, and this reflects the dual nature of the Goddess/Horned God relationship - equal and opposite pairing of nurturer and defender. This hails from an ancient pre-Christian time when the genders were considered equal and didn't tend to dump shit on each other.

LF:  I don't think The Other served her role in TDTESS, mainly because Nibbler wasn't even going to take her with him when he got in his ship. He came back and got her as an afterthought brought on by emotion rather than any grand plan.


Here is the Horned God in his guise as Pan: http://www.sciencemusings.com/blog/images/PanGod.jpg
Note the horns are similar to the spikes in Fry's hair. Also, Pan plays the pipes, and Fry similarly plays an updated wind instrument.

Here is the Earth Goddess in the maiden form: http://www.drawingsociety.com/dscgallery/images/drawingmasters_pics/david _silverberg/earth_mother.jpg
Note that Leela has always been portreyed as being quite close to nature, with a fondness for animals and a definate aptitude for outdoor skills.

Maz - I am well on my way to attaining my goal of becomming a giant omnipotent RobotGodThing. All will tremble before my wrath!
SpaceCase

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« Reply #188 on: 10-20-2006 00:04 »
« Last Edit on: 10-20-2006 00:04 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by KitKatBar-Fry:
Hmm...You know, there's a fanfic at The Leela Zone (anyone wanna supply a link?) That kinda is like that. I think it's called 'The How of Fry' or 'The Day the earth stood in Doubt, one or the other.
You may find “The How of Fry,” here, and “The Day the Future Stood In Doubt,” here. Both are written by Allen Tanner. To the limit of my knowledge, at least, there is no fic titled, “The Day the Earth Stood in Doubt.”

[Edit]
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
I don't think The Other served her role in TDTESS, mainly because Nibbler wasn't even going to take her with him when he got in his ship. He came back and got her as an afterthought brought on by emotion rather than any grand plan.
Premeditated or not, it could still be a part of the Nibblonian prophecy.
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Here is the Horned God in his guise as Pan: [Image]
Note the horns are similar to the spikes in Fry's hair. Also, Pan plays the pipes, and Fry similarly plays an updated wind instrument.
Valid points both.
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
Here is the Earth Goddess in the maiden form:
[Image]
Note that Leela has always been portreyed as being quite close to nature, with a fondness for animals and a definate aptitude for outdoor skills.
Huh?  confused
I think it's a bit of a leap from Leela's loving animals to her being close to nature.
We know she has deadly martial-arts skills, but other than the camping in "Spanish Fry," where do we see her outdoor skills?
Not meant to poke holes in your arguments, just honestly curious questions.
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:I am well on my way to attaining my goal of becomming a giant omnipotent RobotGodThing. All will tremble before my wrath!
Oh, we're trembling alright...

Oh! Did I say that out loud? Sorry...
[SC bites lip]
 wink
coldangel

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« Reply #189 on: 10-20-2006 00:32 »

I think loving animals indicates a closeness to nature. Loves Labours Lost In Space and The Problem With Popplers and The Bird-Bot Of Icecatraz all show her very strong conservationist leaning. I don't know why you wouldn't make that leap.
As for outdoor skills... I don't remember why I wrote that, but I got the impression from her use of a harpoon that she's kind of hands-on rough-and-tumble in the outdoors type of lady.
Tastes Like Fry

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« Reply #190 on: 10-20-2006 00:55 »

Horns? I always thought Fry's hair spikes was more of an 'M' standing for 'Matt Groening'... There's a lot of 'M's in all Futurama and Simpson characters.
coldangel

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« Reply #191 on: 10-20-2006 01:08 »

I never thought of that... huhh... how egotistical. But I still enjoy drawing mythological parallels.

Like Bender and Flexo as Thor and Loki.
...no, that's a stretch.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #192 on: 10-20-2006 01:17 »
« Last Edit on: 10-20-2006 01:17 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by coldangel_1:
I wrote a really big long vehement rebuttal to that but then deleted it because I don't want to turn this thread into a garbage can and it wouldn't have changed your prejudice anyway.
To sum it up, you're wrong and you're being politically-incorrect. I do not fit into the mindless sex-addict category you've described... and furthermore I know numerous WOMEN who do!

Dude, chill.  I never said anyone was a mindless sex addict; I said men and women have different biological approaches when it comes to sexual attraction.  Now, I do think we are much more than our biology; I'm aware that evidence of gender difference can be seized upon and egregiously exaggerated by people with agendas of one kind or another; and I know that culture has an enormous effect on our behavior.  But there still seems to be a biological basis for some differences in "mate selection" process.

Here's a link that you might enjoy: it's actually a rather scathing review of "The Female Brain," a book that apparently does some egregious exaggerating on the side of gender difference. I think that in the review, the comments on the review, and some of the links, most of the angles on the subject get touched upon.

~~~~~~~~

Now, back to the IMPORTANT things...

As for Leela as Earth Goddess and Fry as Horned God, well, that's not the archetypes I usually associate with them; Leela seems too
"Cardinal" (active) and not "Fixed" enough to be the firm and immovable Earth, and Fry just doesn't seem to have the "wildness" I see in Cernunnos or Pan.   Good points about his hair spikes and wind instrument, though.   smile

The Hindu concept of lila/leela is (according to an older Wikipedia article, which I prefer to the present one)

 
Quote
Lila sometimes spelled leela is a concept from Hinduism that explains the universe as a cosmic puppet theater or playground for the gods. "Lila" literally means "play," but in religious texts refers to "divine play" - life as a spontaneous game played by lighthearted forces beyond our understanding. In Vaishnavism lila refers to life and activities of God and his devotees.

It is an important idea in traditional worship of Krishna (as prankster) and Shiva (as dancer), and has been used by modern writers like Stephen Nachmanovitch, Fritjof Capra, Alan Watts and Robert M. Pirsig.

The nearest Western equivalents are the lines from Shakespeare's As You Like It

        "All the world's a stage
        And all the men and women merely players;
        They have their exits and their entrances,
        And one man in his time plays many parts,
        His acts being seven ages..."
        (act II, scene vii. Full text: wikisource:As You Like It - Act II)

and King Lear: "As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport." (act IV . scene i . lines 37–38).

The Hindu version is substantially more hopeful.

How this relates to Leela as a character I haven't quite worked out yet.   wink

I actually tend to see them more on the Heroic rather than the Mythological level; Leela as the Hero and Fry as (what else?) the Sacred Fool.  But if I were to associate them with Deities, I'd probably go with Leela as the Sun Goddess and and Fry as the Vegetation God (with Bender the Trickster there beside them, of course).  I like the "active feminine" of the Solar Goddesses for Leela...then again, Sun Goddesses are one of my pet interests, so I may just be thinking wishfully....

I could ramble on much longer, but most of you already know that.  So I'll try and get some sleep instead.   wink

Night, all;

Shiny "Pontifications R Us" J. Fangirl

Tastes Like Fry

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« Reply #193 on: 10-20-2006 01:32 »

Moving along...

Pretty stars

And some ass grabbing action
coldangel

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« Reply #194 on: 10-20-2006 01:57 »

"Nice nebula."
"Nice boobs... err... crap."
Apple Tea

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« Reply #195 on: 10-20-2006 02:35 »

Hey this may seem a bit off topic, but I was wondering if the futurama writers were to have Fry eventually get Leela in a future season, how would it happen?  I mean Fry would hafta do some kind of grandeur gesture, bigger than the ones he has done before.  How can he possibly top all the stuff he's tried already?
Bending Unit 99

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« Reply #196 on: 10-20-2006 02:43 »

it seems as though the writers have already done it, Fry and Leela might be together in the new eps, i think so because clever things make people feel stupid and unexpected things make them feel scared...
coldangel

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« Reply #197 on: 10-20-2006 02:53 »

Probably some death-defying act of self-sacrifice to save her life or some such. That's how I get girls to like me.
Bending Unit 99

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« Reply #198 on: 10-20-2006 03:51 »

i'm sure he's done that before as well...
coldangel

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« Reply #199 on: 10-20-2006 05:30 »

Maybe she'll end up going for him for once, instead of the other way around.
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