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Author Topic: thusly boned? not quite.  (Read 939 times)
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frythesolid

Delivery Boy
**
« on: 04-06-2003 07:35 »
« Last Edit on: 04-06-2003 07:35 »

i was watching an old imax video today and they showed that when they replaced the lens on the hubble telescope (which zapp brannigan destroyed a little over a thousand years later) there was a solar panel that went bunk.. they were replacing it, but they had to get rid of this solar panel because they did not want to endanger themselves or any other spacecraft. so they used the shuttles rockets to blow it in to the earths atmosphere.. and it got me to thinking.. why couldnt bender use his exhaust (featured in "crimes of the hot" ) to save himself from being gravity's plaything in "godfellas"?

below are pictures supporting my theory.

Grim

Professor
*
« Reply #1 on: 04-06-2003 08:41 »

He was going the speed of light right?
(PE ship does 99% of speed of light, he was going faster than that)

According to quantum theory the closer u get to the speed of light the more energy u need to accelerate / decelerate, because the closer u get to speed of light the more u effectively weigh.

So if bender is doing speed of light, he effectively weighs infinite mass and any booster will not do squat to slow him down.
frythesolid

Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #2 on: 04-06-2003 09:54 »

you try to confuse. thats just legal mumbo jumbo.

someone use science to counter his arguement. =)
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #3 on: 04-06-2003 11:58 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by frythesolid:
you try to confuse. thats just legal mumbo jumbo.

someone use science to counter his arguement. =)

Wizard's choice: Fireball
Solves all kind of discussions fast


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Grim

Professor
*
« Reply #4 on: 04-06-2003 17:35 »

What I said was actual science, u cant fault it :P
Nixorbo

UberMod
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #5 on: 04-06-2003 17:51 »

Grim and science - 1, frythesolid - 0
aslate

Space Pope
****
« Reply #6 on: 04-06-2003 19:27 »

Could we counter it to do with the fact that they move the universe around him and can't things not go as fast as the speed of light (thus they increased the speed of light in 2208).
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #7 on: 04-06-2003 21:02 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Grim:
He was going the speed of light right?
(PE ship does 99% of speed of light, he was going faster than that)

Wrong.
According to Relativity, no material object can travel the speed of light. Period.
In Newtonian physics, velovities are subject to vector addition, but in Relativity there's this little thing called the Lorentz equasion (IIRC) that matematically decsribes how Relativity affects mass, length, and the passage of time for objects moving near the speed of light.

 
Quote
According to quantum theory the closer u get to the speed of light the more energy u need to accelerate / decelerate, because the closer u get to speed of light the more u effectively weigh.

Um, no, that's Relativity again. I forget if it's Special, or General Relativity, though. But you're right about the mass gain part.

 
Quote
So if bender is doing speed of light, he effectively weighs infinite mass and any booster will not do squat to slow him down.

Partial credit.
First, no material object can accelerate to the speed of light; IE. no infinite mass increase.
Second, the "exhaust" Bender is carrying is subject to the same mass increase as the rest of him, so it would have a coorespondingly greater effect on him.
Third, objects moving at 'relativistic'* speeds still obey Newtons laws of motion; a push from rocket thrust would affect him. The question is how much.

Lastly, it's a frickin' cartoon fer criminey's sake!  wink

*sigh*

I need a bigger life...

* "rel-a-tiv-ist-ic" Whoa; I used a 5 syllable word.  hmpf
McGrady

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #8 on: 04-06-2003 21:26 »

He was moving faster than 99% lightspeed -- that doesn't mean faster than light, maybe he was only going 99.975% of the speed of light.

The increase of mass of fuel doesn't mean the fuel would slow him down any, nor the change in exhaust.  In fact, the more mass would cause him to be able to deaccelerate slower.

However, to himself he wouldn't really change any.  His time frame would enable hime to slow down at normal speed -- maybe only a few months, but for everyone else it might take 7,000,000 years.

and it is special relativity.
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #9 on: 04-06-2003 21:54 »

On another note, does the speed of light actually matter.  In all those laws, the speed of light is assumed to be constant, but if they changed the speed of light in 2208, is it still a constant?  In the real world there are many people (not idiots btw) who question whether the speed of light is truly a constant and that if the theory of relativity is fool proof, not flawed.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #10 on: 04-08-2003 13:15 »

You can do a lot with a fart, but slowing down from traveling at the speed of light?
Don't be ridiclious!


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Just Chris

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #11 on: 04-08-2003 20:25 »

The speed of light C is still a constant. Scientists have slowed down light to 37mph. This doesn't mean that they changed C, it only means that light can travel slower than C in the right conditions. C still applies for 'natural' conditions. It is not possible for an object to approach the speed of light, but if an object or wave is traveling at that speed, in theory it can speed up more.
Grim

Professor
*
« Reply #12 on: 04-09-2003 03:53 »

D'oh!
Relativity! Not Quantum theory! Give me a brake its been awhile since my last Physics class  big grin
Nixorbo

UberMod
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #13 on: 04-09-2003 11:25 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Grim:
Give me a brake

::Tears the brakes out of grim's car and hands them to him, then goes and takes a break from all that hard work::

I have a thousand years of power.
"NOOOOO HE WAS MY BROTHER!" and then got tired and slept.


"He has the special talent, though, of being able to help people and make them feel utterly stupid all at the same time. ... In short, he's a great moderator, but a terrible human being."
-SlackJawedMoron
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #14 on: 04-09-2003 12:12 »

shutupshutupshutupshutup...
all this mumbojumbo science drives me crazy...


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #15 on: 04-10-2003 01:29 »
« Last Edit on: 04-10-2003 01:29 »

<hands Gocad an educational implant chip labled "PHYSICS">
You, uhm, might want this...
   wink

<edited 'cuz I still can't flamin' spell!>
JDHannan

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #16 on: 04-10-2003 02:46 »

you guys are missing something huge.  Bender threw all that swag away to slow himself down.  Bender is incredibly strong so he could throw that stuff quite hard to exert force in the opposite direction and slow himself down.  He couldve "exhausted" to slow himself down further.  Assuming he had something to exhaust
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #17 on: 04-10-2003 03:10 »

Thanks SpaceCase.
*swallows chip*
Hmmm, crunchy....


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
frythesolid

Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #18 on: 04-10-2003 09:48 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by JDHannan:
you guys are missing something huge.  Bender threw all that swag away to slow himself down.  Bender is incredibly strong so he could throw that stuff quite hard to exert force in the opposite direction and slow himself down.  He couldve "exhausted" to slow himself down further.  Assuming he had something to exhaust


yeah, what he said.  smile bender always has been inside his compartment, so he could make exhaust and slow himself down.

frythesolid-1 | science-0
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #19 on: 04-10-2003 15:37 »

Isn't it more: the swag travel at the same speed as Bender, and thus get the same mass increase. It's not how hard Bender throw the swag away, it's a simple matter of action/reaction. The reaction force is less significant, bacause Bender's mass is significantly greater than any one piece of swag.

Every piece of swag thrown away, results in a opposite directed reaction force, slowing Bender down ever so slowly.

Using his thruster depends on the chemical energy of the fuel, and that doesn't increase as the weight go up. So the resulting thrust wont go up, but the mass will, and thus the de-acceleration will be very small.

It's been years since I took physics in high-school, don't kill me if it's wrong.
CyberKnight

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #20 on: 04-10-2003 15:41 »

Also, his "thruster" is just his exhaust vent. My perception was that the release of gases of the robots caused so much kinetic energy to be stored that the fumes self-ignited. When Bender adds his fumes to the mix they immediately ignite due to the high level of temperature already existing.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #21 on: 04-10-2003 16:57 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Teral:

It's been years since I took physics in high-school, don't kill me if it's wrong.

Won't kill you for saying something wrong, but rather for pushing this topic further.
It's giving me a headache.
I think you guys are trying to compare something that isn't compareable.


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #22 on: 04-20-2003 03:57 »

No, it's a perfectly debatable topic Gocad. 

One thing to point out before trying my own explanation:

Just Chris, you did get one little thing wrong.  You said that in theory, if something was travelling *at* the speed of light, that it could also go faster.  That is incorrect.  The speed of light in a vacuum (what "c" represents, just like "mach 1" represents the speed of sound under certain conditions) is like a dual sided barrier.  Special Relativity says nothing about Objects ALREADY travelling *faster* than the speed of light.  It merely says that nothing that is not already moving at c, cannot accelerate up to c, because it would require an infinite amount of energy.

My Explanation:

To accurately answer the thread's question, we have to look at how fast Bender was moving.  If the P.E. ship was going .99c, Then it's very likely that Bender didn't acheive a velocity of any greater than .99001c or so, because as we saw, he didn't exactly exit the torpedo tube at an extreme speed.  The force applied to him to increase his speed was powerful, (being fired out of a torpedo tube)  but certainly can not even begin to compare with the amounts of energy necessary to get the P.E. ship up to .99c.  So his speed would be increased only minimally, and if his exhaust fumes have any power to them, he could slowly decelerate to below the P.E. ship's speed.  This is all well and good.  ****But I believe the original question was, why didn't Bender use his exhaust to allow the P.E. ship to catch up with him?  Well, the answer is, because Fry and Leela just left him there, after deciding he couldn't be rescued.  tongue****

For those of you crazies actually STILL reading my post, there's more:

One last note, that swag that he used to try to slow himself down, wasn't used very sucessfully.  As we saw, Bender accidentally threw a piece at an angle, and caused himself to spin wildly and then wasted the rest of his swag trying to stop the spin.  The irony of the joke is, they're being so realistic about the ship not being able to catch up to him, and trying to use the swag to slow himself down, but they show him being bothered by his spinning, when in space, with no point of reference, you would have no way to know you were spinning, beyond the initial feeling of acceleration in the direction you start to spin in.

And very lastly, for those who didn't get enough with just an answer to the question, but need another unrelated topic, (or star trek fans interested in where the word "Tachyon" comes from) here you go:  (:P)

An interesting question is, How much energy would an electron have, if it was travelling at 1.01c?  The answer, is very close to how much energy an electron would have travelling at .99c.  for particles travelling faster than light, the faster they are moving, the less energy they have, and the slower (closer to c from the top) they are going, the more energy they have.  These particles were dubbed "Tachyons" when scientists first theorized about them.  Unfortunetly for Star Trek Fans, scienfists don't really believe tachyons are out there, but it's still a possibility.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #23 on: 04-20-2003 04:00 »
« Last Edit on: 04-20-2003 04:00 »

*has no other choice but to shoot Chalic in order to not go completely insane*
Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #24 on: 04-20-2003 04:13 »
« Last Edit on: 04-20-2003 04:13 »

LOL...I'd like to see what you had posted *before* you edited.

Did you actually read it before posting that, or did you just go insane from the sheer size?
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #25 on: 04-20-2003 04:17 »

Err ... both.
Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #26 on: 04-21-2003 02:42 »

Damnit...I was hoping at least ONE person would enjoy or at least comment on all that...oh well, another 40 minutes down the drain. :P
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #27 on: 04-21-2003 03:18 »
« Last Edit on: 04-22-2003 00:00 »

Want some pity?  tongue


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #28 on: 04-21-2003 19:59 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Chalic:
One last note, that swag that he used to try to slow himself down, wasn't used very sucessfully.  As we saw, Bender accidentally threw a piece at an angle, and caused himself to spin wildly and then wasted the rest of his swag trying to stop the spin.  The irony of the joke is, they're being so realistic about the ship not being able to catch up to him, and trying to use the swag to slow himself down, but they show him being bothered by his spinning, when in space, with no point of reference, you would have no way to know you were spinning, beyond the initial feeling of acceleration in the direction you start to spin in.

Actually, any significant object that is visible will give the clue that Bender is spinning. When he is travelling at such a high speed, he can only see objects that are at a great distance. When he rotates, he will see objects "in front" of him begin to "scroll" across his field of vision.

Therefore, he knows that he is spinning.

I'm actually quite impressed with you. That was the first post where you got everything else right, apart from your spelling. Also, you seemed slightly less haughty.

Keep it up. I may come to like instead of pity you.  tongue  big grin
Yorokobi

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #29 on: 04-21-2003 22:34 »

c = velocity of light IN A VACUUM.  The actual speed varies with the medium.  Example - water the reason light bends and things look odd when sticking out of the water (when you can see the submerged part too) is because the speed of light in water <> speed of light in air.

Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #30 on: 04-22-2003 06:16 »

Are you disagreeing with something Yorikobi?  You stressed what c is, but never made a point.  What are you trying to say?

To tOtAlNErduK:

I doubt it man.  I don't like you, and that tends to put a damper on friendships.  Thanks for the compliment though.  I hadn't considered that Bender would notice the stars were spinning.  He still wouldn't feel anything because of rotational velocity, the stars would just appear be moving.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #31 on: 04-22-2003 17:56 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Chalic:
I don't like you.

Awww. And here am I, thinking that we could be bestest pals!   tongue
SQFreak

Professor
*
« Reply #32 on: 04-22-2003 23:00 »
« Last Edit on: 04-22-2003 23:00 »

Well, Yorikobi's point is valid. The PE Ship wasn't going 0.99c because space isn't a perfect vacuum. There's some dust and gases around in extraordinarily low concentrations - think about the vast amounts of space it fills.

But as far as I can see, no, there was no point to this discussion. As there is no real point to this discussion to this posting. (Bllwha?)
Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #33 on: 04-23-2003 01:20 »

SQFreak, c is a specific speed, not a relative concept.  If Leela says the P.E. ship has a maximum velocity of .99c, then the ship is able to go .99c.  Also, the amount of small random particles and plasma  you are talking about in space barely amount to the tinyest fraction of the density of air on Earth. 

One of the things you'll note in a high school physics course, is that the density of air does almost nothing to the speed of light, and thus the density of the various plasmas filling the interstellar voids affects the speed of light about as much as me throwing a pebble in the air affects the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

Lastly, I don't think that was Yorikobi's point, I think s/he just didn't notice that there was an additional page here, and posted in answer to someone else's post on the previous page.
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #34 on: 04-23-2003 01:56 »
« Last Edit on: 04-23-2003 01:56 »

One other interesting fact is, that if the PE Ship's top speed really is 0.99c, then how could they get to edge of the Universe from Earth within a week? It can't be that near...

Or did the scientists increase the speed of light to some huge, crazy number?


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
SQFreak

Professor
*
« Reply #35 on: 04-23-2003 17:55 »

Good point, Chalic.

Scientists increased to speed of light to allow people to get from the edge of the Universe to Earth within a week. But don't forget that there's "old light" that travels at today's c.
Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #36 on: 04-24-2003 01:00 »

I've always thought the trip to the edge of the universe must be a joke put in there by Ken Keeler, as a poke at scientists who know that the edge of the universe is moving.  Also, the edge of the universe is the edge of the big bang explosion, and thus wouldn't exactly be trasparent.  Like I said, I think it's just a joke, and a good one at that, in the spirit of Fry's mystery glass of water in "Mars University".  There are a few other reasons why it's not possible.  They involve space curvature and things like that. I won't go into them.

Also, some things like time dialation, an effect of relativity, are ignored pretty much all of the time in Futurama.  They have good reasons though, it would be pretty hard to deal with the Proffessor, Amy, Dr. Zoidberg and company getting older by anywhere between a couple of months, and several hundred thousand years every time the P.E. crew go out on a delivery.

On the subject of the increased speed of light, there are many effects that increasing the speed of light would have, which are also mostly ignored for the ease of the average viewer.  A few of them would be:

1.  Antimatter/matter reactions would be more violent by the ratio the speed of light was increased by, squared.  (Energy=mass*speed-of-light*speed-of-light)

2.  Black holes would have event horizons much smaller than before.

3.  The entire universe's kinetic energy would be lowered terrifically because what was previously expanding at near the speed of light, is now only travelling at perhaps 1% the new speed of light, if that.

and

4.  The entire universe's static energy would be increased terrifically, because of effect 1.

I wonder why they just didn't say that the speed of light was increased to such a huge number, that relativistic effects become almost unnoticable, because a trip accross the universe could be accomplished in a day at maybe .4c.  Would fix a number of problems that I mostly just ignore, but still bother me a little.

To Gocad:  "Fry:  What speed is this?  Some huge number???
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #37 on: 04-24-2003 05:28 »

*suffering from headache after reading the previous post*  tongue

I still prefer the Stewart explanation for interstellar travel.


I'm watching you. Yes, YOU!
Chalic

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #38 on: 04-26-2003 06:07 »
« Last Edit on: 04-26-2003 06:07 »

Oh come on Gocad, that one wasn't about time at all.  You must at least be interested, you keep coming back!  Now what's this Stewart explanation you're talking about? :P
Gocad

Space Pope
****
« Reply #39 on: 04-26-2003 12:14 »
« Last Edit on: 04-26-2003 12:14 »

Fan: Oh, Mr. Stewart, tell us, how does the warp drive work?
Patrick Stewart: Well, it's simple. I say engage, and we're travelling at warp speed.

There. Simple explanation. No words you have to look up or that give you a headache. Hard Science as it should be.    tongue
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