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PEEL - The Futurama Message Board    Re-Check/Weird Scenes    Cyclical Time (CTSU) vs. Cyclical Universe (LTMU) - Let's Get Ready to Rumbleeeee! « previous next »
Author Topic: Cyclical Time (CTSU) vs. Cyclical Universe (LTMU) - Let's Get Ready to Rumbleeeee!  (Read 29617 times)
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Chives

Bending Unit
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« on: 05-16-2011 20:14 »
« Last Edit on: 08-25-2011 09:05 by futurefreak »

The forwards time machine from A Late Philip J. Fry is possibly the most useful invention anyone could ever have invented.

Think about it.

At the mere price of the minute or so it was shown to take to traverse back to one's starting point (or more likely, moments before), you can do anything at any point in history with NO repercussions and by returning just before you leave if outcomes seemed shoddy, you stop the cycle by killing your past self. If things seem proper, arrive a little after you would have left.

With this incredible technology, you could-

-Answer any question about anything history related
-Clone people (not in the literal sense, but a good-enough substitute)
-Obtain objects from the past or future
-Similarly to the first and third, obtain any knowledge from the past or future
-Test out all possible effects of any possible action at any possible time in any possible universe.

The endless ability of this one invention combined with the spa from Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles, which would restore youth without destroying new memories and knowledges acquired, allow for literally godly status.

You can accomplish anything anywhere anytime, as long as you would be able to complete it in a lifetime normally.

Feel like taking a pistol to the middle ages and carving out a notch for yourself? Do it.
Feel like making sweet love with any passionate or beautiful figure that has ever or will ever exist? Do it.
Feel like assembling the greatest minds of all time, and discussing the merits of the world over the finest wines from the finest year? Do it.
Feel like studying for infinite lifetimes firsthand at the foot of all great societies? Do it.

It's incredible how much could be done with this invention combined with the age-reversig properties of the tar.

And, yes, I know. It's a television program and not only will none of us have the chance, neither will the characters.

But really. My goodness. What would YOU do with the endless expanse of possibility?
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #1 on: 05-16-2011 21:39 »
« Last Edit on: 05-16-2011 21:46 »

-Clone people (not in the literal sense, but a good-enough substitute)

You mean with technology from the future or your paradox? Cause every paradox is doomed to die.

Anyway, good ideas. =P That'd be my perfect time travelling adventure. It's practically like having super powers. eek
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #2 on: 05-16-2011 23:25 »

-Clone people (not in the literal sense, but a good-enough substitute)

 Cause every paradox is doomed to die.

No, every duplicate created as a result of the Universal Time Code is subject to the exponentially-increasing Doom Field, which causes them to be killed. Other paradox-clones may actually be safe.
DannyJC13

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« Reply #3 on: 05-16-2011 23:29 »
« Last Edit on: 05-16-2011 23:31 »

Incorrect, the original Fry, Bender and Professor are crushed by their future versions in the One-Way Time Machine, to which the Professor exclaims:

'Pow. We took care of the time travel paradox.'

Me - 1 You - 0

You really need to try and live up to your 'Nerd' title a little harder.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #4 on: 05-16-2011 23:46 »

Incorrect, the original Fry, Bender and Professor are crushed by their future versions in the One-Way Time Machine, to which the Professor exclaims:

'Pow. We took care of the time travel paradox.'

Me - 1 You - 0

You really need to try and live up to your 'Nerd' title a little harder.

This does not mean that all paradox duplicates are doomed. The reason that the duplicates from BBS are doomed is the Doom Field. The reason that the second Fry, Bender, and Prof. are crushed by the originals is that the originals appeared above them. There was no doom field in effect, as they were not time-code duplicates. It was an entirely different form of paradox.

You: 0

Me:

You really need to try not to be insufferably smug when you're wrong. It only makes people think you're stupid.
Nibblonian Leader

Urban Legend
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« Reply #5 on: 05-17-2011 00:36 »

Incorrect, the original Fry, Bender and Professor are crushed by their future versions in the One-Way Time Machine, to which the Professor exclaims:


You really need to try and live up to your 'Nerd' title a little harder.

Who spiked Danny's energy drink?
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #6 on: 05-17-2011 00:46 »

There was no doom field in effect, as they were not time-code duplicates. It was an entirely different form of paradox.

Then why did the Professor, as I previously said, say:

'Pow. We took care of the time travel paradox.'

Explain. Evidence. Even if it was a different type of Paradox, it still ends up with the duplicates being killed. According to the Professor's words.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #7 on: 05-17-2011 01:00 »

There was no doom field in effect, as they were not time-code duplicates. It was an entirely different form of paradox.

Then why did the Professor, as I previously said, say:

'Pow. We took care of the time travel paradox.'

Explain. Evidence. Even if it was a different type of Paradox, it still ends up with the duplicates being killed. According to the Professor's words.

No, it doesn't. Stop being a tool for thirty seconds, and think it through. The professor's words indicate only that a paradox existed. They do not indicate that all paradoxes must be solved by killing somebody. roll eyes

The professor said "We took care of the time travel paradox" because by a happy (for a given value of happy) accident, the act of rematerialising within the time stream caused the resolution of the paradox by squishing the duplicates. It's a co-incidence. It should in fact be self-evident to anybody with a functioning brain and a vaguely logical  grasp of cause and effect, but apparantly that's one Venn diagram in which you're a lonely circle off to the side.
Nutmeg1729

Urban Legend
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« Reply #8 on: 05-17-2011 01:07 »

Coinkydink?

big grin
pluche93

Bending Unit
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« Reply #9 on: 05-17-2011 01:35 »

just that you know, I'm currently eating pop-corn so you can continue your little debate eartican, I want to know the end

*eating pop-corn* cool
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #10 on: 05-17-2011 01:58 »

just that you know, I'm currently eating pop-corn so you can continue your little debate eartican, I want to know the end

*eating pop-corn* cool

There is no debate. It's over. Go shove a mongoose down your trousers.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #11 on: 05-17-2011 02:10 »
« Last Edit on: 05-17-2011 02:15 »

I don't understand you fellows.

There are no duplicates involved in my point here. There are no paradoxes. If anything, TLFJF proved that the Futuramaverse marches onward linearly, one universe happening after another with each beginning resulting in a universe which is completely identical, except it is slightly lower.

My cloning point is determined thusly:

1.You go forward in time until your universe ends, and wait for another to begin.
2.Meet your younger self at any point, and explain to them what your intentions are (or  kidnap them, or put a mind slug on them)
3. Bring them with you into your forwards time machine, and return to the point of your leaving. Presto!

Assuming the Professor's design is the only possible design, this is still easily done; if the available room could be expanded, then this could expotentially increase in potential.


If it is not obvious, this is the same method that would be used to duplicate anything else material. Since every universe is the same as the last, you hurt nothing (nothing which will come back to bite you, anyway), and if you can morally get past it this technique could easily be used to achieve anything.



*edit*

It might be worth explaining why duplicates caused by this method are not paradox duplicates, as seen in Bender's Big Score.

The reson is that duplicates from the first movie are copies of the same singular being; these duplicates may be genetically exact, but they occur hundreds of billions of years later on down the line. Hopefully that is clear to everyone.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #12 on: 05-17-2011 02:30 »

I don't understand you fellows.

There are no duplicates involved in my point here. There are no paradoxes. If anything, TLFJF proved that the Futuramaverse marches onward linearly, one universe happening after another with each beginning resulting in a universe which is completely identical, except it is slightly lower.

The Cyclic Universe model is incompatible with established canon. It's the same universe. What repeats is time itself. There are other threads where this is explained, so I won't get into it here. But there's only one universe, which occurs over and over again in an endless series of reruns. Though, overall everything only happens once. Confused? Go check PEEL for the relevant threads.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #13 on: 05-17-2011 02:33 »

Professor needed to shoot Hitler a second time; that alone shows that the events from the first trip do not effect every trip.

The time travelling evidence from BBS and TLFJF are completely incompatible, and I only deal with the latter in this topic.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #14 on: 05-17-2011 03:00 »

Professor needed to shoot Hitler a second time; that alone shows that the events from the first trip do not effect every trip.

Indeed. The universe repeats, and events play out as normal, but on the play-through that the Prof. interferes with, Hitler gets vapourised. Each play-through is a standalone event in that sense.

Quote
The time travelling evidence from BBS and TLFJF are completely incompatible, and I only deal with the latter in this topic.

Not so. There's a consistent model, the Cyclical Time theory that manages to integrate both.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #15 on: 05-17-2011 03:04 »
« Last Edit on: 05-17-2011 03:13 »

All right. I can't be sure that the presence of this Cyclic Time Theory makes my reaches for infinite power impossible, but before I continue onwards I would rather be sure.

Do you mind linking me, so that I may educate myself?

(Currently, I don't see why it would falsify what I have said.)

*edit* Found it myself.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #16 on: 05-17-2011 03:12 »

The Cyclic Universe model also makes more sense from a continuity perspective. Otherwise, the rest of the cast we know are in fact different people than we've watched on the show for so many years now. And our Leela ended up marrying Cubert. Bleh.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #17 on: 05-17-2011 03:13 »

I've done my reading, and I think that this is a metaphor which I feel will aid all of you in understanding my claim.

Imagine for a moment a line of identical rooms in a house. All rooms are completely identical in every way, and there are an infinite amount of them. The notable features of this room are that there are no windows and two doors on opposite ends.

You are in one room. The door behind you is locked, but the other door is open. When you go through it, it locks behind you, but the new available door is unlocked. You can progress forwards forever, or spend as much time as you like where you are, but never go backwards past the door behind you.

Any manipulation of the room you are currently in is reminiscient of the time code from BBS. You have the power to make things as they were at any point within this one room.

Meanwhile, you can move forward, a la TLFJF. However, no matter how much rearranging you attempt, you can not move backwards. This is important.

Let's say you think the room is too dark. You can take the lamp from the room you are in, and continue onwards to the next room. That room will now be lighter. This can be done with anything, with the only limitation being the size of the door, or your arm strength.

This is by no means a perfect metaphor. You can't hold the door open, for example, or it breaks the concept. However, it essence it should do well to explain what I mean.

Are there any questions?

(also, by the way, Xanfor, that is EXACTLY correct. Those things happened to those people. Fry wasn't kidding when he said those people were dead now.)
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #18 on: 05-17-2011 03:22 »

The Cyclic Universe model also makes more sense from a continuity perspective. Otherwise, the rest of the cast we know are in fact different people than we've watched on the show for so many years now. And our Leela ended up marrying Cubert. Bleh.

Not really. In CT there is only one Leela. She's the same collection of the same atoms every single time.

This is what truly makes the second time-machine crew's presence a paradox. Because they're composed of the same matter, from an earlier incarnation of the universe. By rights they shouldn't exist in that form at that time. There should be no duplicates (and ordinarily would not). But the Prof's dicking around with time travel has enabled them to exist at two points in the continuum. Therefore, paradox. Paradox "resolved" by the squishing of the duplicate crew.

I've done my reading, and I think that this is a metaphor which I feel will aid all of you in understanding my claim.

I see what you're saying, but it really doesn't work that way at all.

All right. I can't be sure that the presence of this Cyclic Time Theory makes my reaches for infinite power impossible, but before I continue onwards I would rather be sure.

Do you mind linking me, so that I may educate myself?
*edit* Found it myself.

No, it doesn't make it impossible.

I'll do better than link you, I'll compile it right here.











Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #19 on: 05-17-2011 03:27 »

Having read and comprehended these diagrams a second time in twenty minutes, I see that our disconnect is probably in called (as you just said in your last post, tnuk) all Leelas (for the example) the same.

I'd hazard saying that not all Leelas are the same; while they have the same genetic makeup and memories, they don't occur at the same moment in time.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #20 on: 05-17-2011 03:28 »

Not really. In CT there is only one Leela. She's the same collection of the same atoms every single time.

That's what I was saying... In the CU model, Fry, Bender and the Professor never got back to their friends. They ended up trapped two universes away.

Oh, and I love how the TARDIS exists outside of everything else. big grin
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #21 on: 05-17-2011 03:30 »

Not really. In CT there is only one Leela. She's the same collection of the same atoms every single time.

That's what I was saying... In the CU model, Fry, Bender and the Professor never got back to their friends. They ended up trapped two universes away.

Oh, and I love how the TARDIS exists outside of everything else. big grin


I'm sorry... TARDIS? What is that?
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #22 on: 05-17-2011 03:34 »

Having read and comprehended these diagrams a second time in twenty minutes, I see that our disconnect is probably in called (as you just said in your last post, tnuk) all Leelas (for the example) the same.

I'd hazard saying that not all Leelas are the same; while they have the same genetic makeup and memories, they don't occur at the same moment in time.
They do though. They occur at the same point on the curved surface of the circle, it's just that this is the nth time through.

Oh, and I love how the TARDIS exists outside of everything else. big grin

Yeah, I thought you (and a couple of others) would like that when I drew it.

Not really. In CT there is only one Leela. She's the same collection of the same atoms every single time.

That's what I was saying... In the CU model, Fry, Bender and the Professor never got back to their friends. They ended up trapped two universes away.

The CU model really doesn't fit with BBS, TWOF, and RTEW though. You can make it fit any one, at the expense of fitting the other two... which is the main thing that led me to believe CT was the better model. I mean, initially, CU seemed like it made sense a lot more easily, but when I was trying to put together a consistent in-universe model for time travel, there were major problems with it.

CT and temporal inertia, on the other hand, fits nicely with the other episodes involving time travel, and very neatly makes sense of TLPJF... even though it seems somewhat complex at first.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #23 on: 05-17-2011 03:36 »

I disagree. I believe that the linear model works with all episodes; I still don't see why my metaphor doesn't work perfectly.

You can travel to any point in your current iteration, but once you move on past the end of the universe, there is no going back.
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #24 on: 05-17-2011 03:38 »

CT and temporal inertia, on the other hand, fits nicely with the other episodes involving time travel, and very neatly makes sense of TLPJF... even though it seems somewhat complex at first.

That's why I agree with it. To tell the truth, you're the one who initially convinced me. wink

I'm sorry... TARDIS? What is that?

Time And Relative Dimension In Space.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #25 on: 05-17-2011 03:39 »


ahaha oh, oh wow. Okay. Yes. No wonder I did not know smile
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #26 on: 05-17-2011 03:46 »

I disagree. I believe that the linear model works with all episodes; I still don't see why my metaphor doesn't work perfectly.

You can travel to any point in your current iteration, but once you move on past the end of the universe, there is no going back.

Once you move past the end of the universe, though, you're outside the house. The path takes you back to the first door. The metaphor works properly now.

Time isn't set out how you think. People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff. In fact, whilst people tend to think of it as linear, time isn't a straight line, it's all... bumpy-wumpy. there's loads of boring stuff, like sundays and tuesdays and thursday afternoons.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #27 on: 05-17-2011 03:48 »

I disagree. I believe that the linear model works with all episodes; I still don't see why my metaphor doesn't work perfectly.

You can travel to any point in your current iteration, but once you move on past the end of the universe, there is no going back.

Once you move past the end of the universe, though, you're outside the house. The path takes you back to the first door. The metaphor works properly now.

You misunderstand. Every door you move through is the end of a universe; every new room you enter represents another big bang.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #28 on: 05-17-2011 03:53 »

Hm. In that case it's a flawed metaphor. You're really exiting one door and going back around to the door you came in by.
Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #29 on: 05-17-2011 03:56 »
« Last Edit on: 05-17-2011 04:00 »

Hm. In that case it's a flawed metaphor. You're really exiting one door and going back around to the door you came in by.

Not so. Why is it so hard to examine the possibility of a slightly altered version of your circular diagram up top? It's an altercation which isn't improvable; both satisfy all available evidence.

My suggestion is pretty much a slinky. See what I am saying?
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #30 on: 05-17-2011 04:18 »
« Last Edit on: 05-17-2011 04:19 by totalnerduk »




The thread where this was first discussed in depth.

It's not just me who has been saying this. Look! Somebody else has also figured out what's being displayed in TLPJF.

Here's another attempt to summarise.

A couple more reasons why CU is not a viable model.

A few posts talking about how many iterations of the universe there have been. There has only been one. Just repeated endless times.

Chives

Bending Unit
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« Reply #31 on: 05-17-2011 04:25 »


I have browsed your links. (fast reader). The only one which occurs to me as a problem is the post where you point out that the new universes are all shy the atoms comprising the time machine.

I did not think of that.

I also do not have any explanation for it. I think I'll chalk it up to willing suspension of disbelief, since everything else makes sense. Considering your dispelling of a linear theory also does not serve to explain that abscence, we may be forced to part ways with differing opionions.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #32 on: 05-17-2011 17:30 »

Where is the evidence backing your 'It's not a Doom Field Paradox' theory TNUK? I'm not being a tool, I'm just curious, since that fact is not addressed or proven in the episode. hmpf
Xanfor

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #33 on: 05-17-2011 17:38 »

Because the null hypothesis is that the Doom Field only applies to the time code method of time travel due to its paradox-free nature, and thus far, there has been nothing disproving it.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #34 on: 05-17-2011 17:42 »

So I still don't understand why the originals were killed and yet Professor didn't say something like 'Oh no we killed ourselves...' instead of 'Paradox Solved'.
Xanfor

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« Reply #35 on: 05-17-2011 17:44 »

The paradox was that there were now two of them in the current incarnation of the universe. With their inadvertent manslaughter, they eliminated any social complications this would cause.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #36 on: 05-17-2011 17:46 »

Exactly, so there doesn't have to be a Doom Field, paradoxes are doomed anyway?!
Xanfor

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« Reply #37 on: 05-17-2011 17:51 »

No. It is narrative coincidence until proven otherwise.

That isn't to say that if you get involved in a paradox a few things won't strike you as being very odd, but if you've got through life without that already happening to you, then I don't know which universe you've been living in, but it isn't this one.
DannyJC13

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« Reply #38 on: 05-17-2011 17:56 »

Well everything makes sense, except the Professor saying the thing I have repeated multiple times, 'Pow. That takes care of the time travel paradox.'

Did he just say it in general cause they accidently killed themselves, or did he know there was a doom field?
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #39 on: 05-17-2011 18:39 »
« Last Edit on: 05-17-2011 19:06 by totalnerduk »

You're being a tool, DannyJC13. You're being a tool and an idiot and a putz, and you're irritating the shit out of me. Let me lay it out for you one more time;

1. The mathematics behind the time code, as analysed in BBS contains an exponentially increasing number which the professos designates the doom field.

2. The doom field applies to time code paradoxes. Nibbler explicitly states that the time code is paradox-correcting - ie, it self-corrects paradoxes. Farnsworth finds that this is accomplished via the doom field when analysing it with the Globetrotters.

3. Since the forwards time machine doesn't use the time code (which is used for backwards travel), there is no associated paradox correction mechanism (no doom field).

4. A paradox does not have to be corrected, nor does it have to end with killing somebody. Fry is essentially a living paradox. In RTEW he became his own grandfather (this is in fact known as the grandfather paradox), and he's not dead. Nor is he subject to a doom field. The paradox will likely never be corrected.

5. All of this should make sense to you now. If it doesn't, there is no hope for you.

6. I like making lists. It's a lot simpler than constructing sentences and arguments with a linear flow to them. Lists are free to jump around a bit more.

7. Diagram just in case you're too dumb for this list to make sense.

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