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Author Topic: something that bothered me about "Why Must I Be a Crustacean in Love?"  (Read 1426 times)
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JusBlaze23
Crustacean
*
« on: 09-30-2009 19:47 »
« Last Edit on: 09-30-2009 19:48 »

this is a very good episode...but there is a line by edena (sp?) that really frustrates me...given the fact that so many of the writers are very bright and educated.

she intially refuses to mate with Zoidberg because his genes would be detremential to the species...that's not what natural selection or evolutionary biology is concerned about...it's not the species...it's the genome...edena should be concerned about her OFFSPRING...not the spieces...who cares if nearly every other crab monster dies?...as long as edena's offspring continue and propagate...that's what should be forfront on edena's mind.

ehh...is it minor...maybe...but it always hurts my head when i hear that line...and i guess it is not an uncommon error...i had an similiar dispute with one of my not so intellegent professors about the species/gemone differential...just disapointed they didn't get it correct.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #1 on: 09-30-2009 21:19 »

I always figured it was something she made up to make rejecting him easier.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #2 on: 10-01-2009 02:37 »

You're making assumptions about the biological imperatives of an organism that is both extra-terrestrial and fictional.
Frida Waterfall

Professor
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« Reply #3 on: 10-01-2009 02:53 »

Edna was trying to explain it would be inefficient to breed with Zoidberg because she has a large quantity of eggs compared to other females. She would produce the most offspring if she were to breed with the male with a large quantity of jelly, something that the Decapodian Emperor has and Zoidberg doesn't.
seattlejohn01

Space Pope
****
« Reply #4 on: 10-01-2009 05:45 »

Can you imagine that in real life?  Kinda takes the place of "you're just not my type".
JusBlaze23
Crustacean
*
« Reply #5 on: 10-03-2009 04:25 »

granted...yes...it does mean...you aren't my type...but it's an extra deep kind of stab..."your gene's will produce lame kids for me...(as opposed to lame kids for our species)"...and as for assumptions of biological imperatives...it's essentially universal precident...(humans, the animal kingdom; anything alive besically)...granted...it's still funny...the joke would have just been better in my mind if it was accurate because it's still harshly cold statement in a funny way...just inaccurate in the way everyone is about Darwin...it's not the species...it's about the individual
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #6 on: 10-03-2009 05:17 »

it's essentially universal precident...(humans, the animal kingdom; anything alive besically)

Odd assumption since we've never encountered anything but terrestrial life, which all evolved here from a common ancestor. Strangely arrogant to assume it'd be even remotely similar on other worlds.

In any event, a species with the capacity for abstract thought (sentient) is able to combine intellectual considerations with its base drives. Humans do it all the time.
JusBlaze23
Crustacean
*
« Reply #7 on: 10-03-2009 07:58 »
« Last Edit on: 10-03-2009 08:16 »

life...whether on this planet or otherwise...would have the desire to remain in in such fashion...maybe that is an assumption...i'm willing to assume it is accurate 99.9% of the time...it really has nothing to do with humanity...people apply to this "assumption"...just as single celled organisms...anything alive desires to stay living...and spread it's genome...beyond humans...i don't think there has ever been a case of suicide...and from a sociological perspective...(durhkiem)...a majority of those can be explained functionally...

i don't think it's an odd assumtption...but i'm willing to agree to disagree...life has a way of elongating itself...regardless of species...and principles of Darwin...(alelles that are beneficial continuing and those detremential becoming extinict...the set of genes...traits...best for a certain enviroment...be it on earth or some foriegn planet makes logical...albiet...human sense...is within comprehension)...

clearly the writers were either trying to make fun of or attack evlutionary psychology/biology...or Darwin for a matter of fact...but the joke is good regardless...but it's not correct.  one word would have changed it...(it's edna's offspring that's important...not the crab/lobster monster species)

lobster/crab monster...it doesn't matter...(well...i guess unless you are a bible fantic)...evolution is hard science...and i would like to think it would be true on other planets/species/galaxies...what have you

my major gripe is people not exposed to the grand schemes of evolution...which certain segments of the population want no business with is...phrase like "survival of the fittest" are applied to species...which is not appropriate...survival of the fittest applies to genomes...individuals...the writes were not assaling crab monster evolution...they were attacking human theories on propagation of species...and regardless of species...known or not...they had it wrong by one word...it comes down to the individual...


it's one word that bothers me...but the word "species"...and not "my kids/offspring"...raises my ire...since the writers are so bright...there error on a classic darwin theory is a letdown
Jezzem

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #8 on: 10-03-2009 09:53 »

Wait, you're angry because this fictional extra terrestrial rejected this other fictional extra terrestrial for the wrong reason? You do realise that it's an animated television show and not a scientifically correct documentary on extra terrestrial lobster beings right?

Furthermore, does her excuse for rejecting Zoidberg even matter? She rejected him because she didn't want to mate with him and because it advanced the plot of the episode.
JusBlaze23
Crustacean
*
« Reply #9 on: 10-03-2009 22:19 »

i don't understand why you can rationalize my arguement.

she should reject him...i'm not disputing anything except a single word..."species"

clearly the writers are going after darwin and natural selection and the basics of evolution.

problem is the used the word "species" as opposed to offspring.

for having such a witty writing staff...one would assume they would get darwin correct...but sadly did not.  it has nothing to do with crab monster and edna should refuse him.  it could be worm monsters...it could be bird monsters...i don't care...they messed up on darwin.  period.  they have all these math jokes...(all very witty i might add)...but they laid a huge egg on biology and i don't think they even know it was incorrect...like i said...many people make this folly...i don't know if it's because of religion...or people questioning the genesis of life...conservatives or whatever...but a lot of people do not even know the basic tenants of evolution...it's not about the species.

i know it's a cartoon...my arguement is not that it's live action or reality...but the writting staff is clearly bright but that's a serious goof on their part...i don't understand why others don't see their flaw.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #10 on: 10-03-2009 22:31 »

Edna would suffer from the same failures as other people; irrationality and/or ignorance.

Why can't she be wrong in her statement?  What is wrong with that?!  Not all people are right, and even writers intentionally make people say incorrect things!
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #11 on: 10-04-2009 02:40 »

life...whether on this planet or otherwise...would have the desire to remain in in such fashion...maybe that is an assumption...i'm willing to assume it is accurate 99.9% of the time...it really has nothing to do with humanity...people apply to this "assumption"...just as single celled organisms...anything alive desires to stay living...and spread it's genome...beyond humans...i don't think there has ever been a case of suicide...and from a sociological perspective...(durhkiem)...a majority of those can be explained functionally...

Oh jesus... this does not take sentience into account, nor the possibility of shared collective unconscious leading to a sense of species-wide biological imperative. Humans have also practiced eugenics - it's not a new or fictional idea.

Anyway, you don't even know if Decapodians are carbon-based, or if they have cells or DNA, or anything.

Here, I'm an animal. I have absolutely no drive to reproduce at all. None. Zero inclination. I won't do it. How does that relate to your one-size-fits-all biological model?
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #12 on: 10-04-2009 09:56 »


   it's not the species...it's the genome


On an evolutionary time scale what's the difference?

Quote

   edena should be concerned about her OFFSPRING...not the spieces


Says who?

Quote

   ...who cares if nearly every other crab monster dies?...as long as edena's offspring continue and propagate...that's what should be forfront on edena's mind.


That's just it. It's what's in the forefront of the audience's mind that's the important thing. The writers have just a few seconds of screen time to get an idea across as well as make it seem 'in character' as well as make it funny as well as advance the plot. If they can find a single sentence (incorrect as it may be) that the vast majority of their target audience would understand (or at least could understand if they weren't deliberately trying not to) they wouldn't give a toss if it's not 'technically' correct. Especially if technically correct wording would be less familiar to the audience.


   ...the joke would have just been better in my mind if it was accurate because it's still harshly cold statement in a funny way...just inaccurate in the way everyone is about Darwin...it's not the species...it's about the individual


Exactly - it's not a joke if nobody 'gets' it. So the writers chose to word it in terms that non-'Darwinian Fanatics' would be familiar with.


   clearly the writers were either trying to make fun of or attack evlutionary psychology/biology...or Darwin for a matter of fact


Clearly you must know more about the writing and production of animated TV series that the rest of us to be able to claim that no other factors (e.g. time schedules, searching for a better joke) could possibly have been ahead of "attack evolution" in the minds of the writers, with such certainty.

You aren't a closet conspirancy theorist by any chance?

Quote

   ...but the joke is good regardless...but it's not correct.  one word would have changed it...(it's edna's offspring that's important...not the crab/lobster monster species)


So, in a nutshell, you're disappointed that, by failing to catch the fact that not swapping one word out of a widely understood phrase for another much less familiar word, the writers placed humor and simplicity ahead of a point of technical accuracy (a point which is not universally acknowledged in the first place)?

Does it upset you that sound effects are done with foley rather than with the real sounds?

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
seattlejohn01

Space Pope
****
« Reply #13 on: 10-04-2009 13:53 »

Sound effects are done with foley & not real sounds?  When did this happen?  Dammit, I'm always the last to know... *walks off grumbling*
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #14 on: 10-04-2009 16:47 »

I'm all for Darwinian evolution. I take it as fact, not theory.

If a sentient species with a culture of eugenics becomes aware of it, it's fair to say they would start selecting mating partners for the good of the species as a whole, rather than focusing on their offspring. This would also make sense when you're talking about a species that dies as soon as it's finished mating (spawning) - they're not even going to be around to see their offspring, so there's no parental nurture instinct at play there at all.
JusBlaze23
Crustacean
*
« Reply #15 on: 10-06-2009 07:54 »

i really dodn't think that my inquiry into whether "species/offspring" would be so misunderstood... i'm bored with it...but i really want to clear a couple things up...

   it's not the species...it's the genome


Quote
On an evolutionary time scale what's the difference?

umm...everything.  that's the entire difference. 

Quote

   edena should be concerned about her OFFSPRING...not the spieces


Quote
Says who?

i don't know...every single biology textbook for the last 100 or so years...unless you're from Kansas were i believe they tear those pages out...sorry if you from Kansas...for multiple reasons.

Quote

   ...who cares if nearly every other crab monster dies?...as long as edena's offspring continue and propagate...that's what should be forfront on edena's mind.


Quote
That's just it. It's what's in the forefront of the audience's mind that's the important thing. The writers have just a few seconds of screen time to get an idea across as well as make it seem 'in character' as well as make it funny as well as advance the plot. If they can find a single sentence (incorrect as it may be) that the vast majority of their target audience would understand (or at least could understand if they weren't deliberately trying not to) they wouldn't give a toss if it's not 'technically' correct. Especially if technically correct wording would be less familiar to the audience.

Futurama has made many...many jokes that very very few people would get...quantum physics jokes...computer science jokes...math jokes...jokes that a very small percentage of the viewers would get.  they didn't alter the science to make it funny...or more digestable...and it's just one word..."offspring" instead of species...you could use "kids"...or "babies"...Futurama was/is good because they didn't dumb things down.


   ...the joke would have just been better in my mind if it was accurate because it's still harshly cold statement in a funny way...just inaccurate in the way everyone is about Darwin...it's not the species...it's about the individual


Quote
Exactly - it's not a joke if nobody 'gets' it. So the writers chose to word it in terms that non-'Darwinian Fanatics' would be familiar with.

I'm not a Darwin fanatic...it's just science...there is right...and wrong.  it's funny if...if edna said i don't want to mate with you because i'll have inferoir kids with you...(maybe inferior is too big...i don't know...retarded kids?)

   clearly the writers were either trying to make fun of or attack evlutionary psychology/biology...or Darwin for a matter of fact


Clearly you must know more about the writing and production of animated TV series that the rest of us to be able to claim that no other factors (e.g. time schedules, searching for a better joke) could possibly have been ahead of "attack evolution" in the minds of the writers, with such certainty.

You aren't a closet conspirancy theorist by any chance?

no...it's not a conspirancy...it's a simple misstep
Quote

   ...but the joke is good regardless...but it's not correct.  one word would have changed it...(it's edna's offspring that's important...not the crab/lobster monster species)


Quote
So, in a nutshell, you're disappointed that, by failing to catch the fact that not swapping one word out of a widely understood phrase for another much less familiar word, the writers placed humor and simplicity ahead of a point of technical accuracy (a point which is not universally acknowledged in the first place)?

The problem is that it's not one with humor...it's funny either way...just would have been nice to see it correct.  As i mentioned before...Kansas doesn't agree with evolution, certain religions don't agree with evolution...just because it's not universally accepted doesn't make it not a fact or ripe for humor.  The writer get some very witty and smart quips by that are 100% correct.  just not this one.  That's my only gripe.  Very good episode.  one mistake.

In response to coldangel_1...your argument is correct if the decapodians were a eugnitic society...and i have a hard time swallowing that since they don't have death camps like the Nazi's...if Zoidberg was so inferior...he should have been castrated...or eliminated...and not even have the possibility to mate.  A society that places a high emphasis about the best genome propagating would not leave things to chance.  Good catch though.

i'm done with this point...i had hoped that some other people would have also noticed the line slip and be pleased that someone else noticed the error...i guess not.
Jezzem

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #16 on: 10-06-2009 08:04 »

Oh my god, who the hell cares? It's one word stop acting like as if it's some kind of huge deal/error! You're probably not even the first person to notice this, it's just that anyone else who noticed it didn't care because it's not even a big mistake.

And and what's the the ellipses all the time?
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #17 on: 10-06-2009 08:27 »

your argument is correct if the decapodians were a eugnitic society...and i have a hard time swallowing that since they don't have death camps like the Nazi's

That's a rather ignorant comment. Eugenics is, literally, selective breeding to improve the species. It does not automatically imply genocide. Eugenics can be voluntarily practiced and promoted to the general population, but not officially mandated. This is a form of non-state enforced eugenics, using a liberal or democratic approach, which was actually practiced here on Earth in the 1900s. In real life.

And you ignored the point about the Decapodian species dying after it spawns. This eliminates the nurture element from their psychology since they won't be around to do it.

Erm... good catch though?
Ed3

Crustacean
*
« Reply #18 on: 10-06-2009 08:41 »

it's not even a big mistake.

It's not even a mistake at all. Let alone the fact that it is just a cartoon, all life doesn't have to be the same as it on Earth. Darwins theories might not apply to extra terrestrial life.
Jezzem

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #19 on: 10-06-2009 11:19 »

I never said it was.
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #20 on: 10-06-2009 13:09 »


   i had hoped that some other people would have also noticed the line slip


That says it all, really.

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #21 on: 10-10-2009 07:03 »

Yes, probabaly just something the writers overlooked.
I have a better question though: if their species dies after they mate, then how do Zoidbergs Parent's live?? They are seen in flashbacks in a few episodes! Who raises the offspring?
Perhaps they are adopted by those that do not want to mate?
iceiwynd

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #22 on: 10-10-2009 07:05 »

We have never seen Zoidberg's parents.

I would assume that the offspring are raised by others, probably relatives of their dead parents. Zoidberg once referred to himself as "Norm and Sam and Sadie's boy"; the third party was most likely the one that raised him, while the other two died conceiving him (... now that's a particularly depressing thought).
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #23 on: 10-10-2009 07:09 »

No, no, we do see some kind of parental figures. I think it's in "that's lobstertainment" when Zoidberg talks about how he wanted to be a comedian, and then it flashes back to him as a child with his mother saying something like, "Sure you can go off and be a comedian, if you've given up your dream of becoming a doctor!"
iceiwynd

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #24 on: 10-10-2009 07:11 »

Parental figures does not equal parent.

It was whoever raised him that was criticizing him, but not his mom. I'm pretty sure the Decapodian mentioned something about "if you want your parents to spin in their graves" or something similar.
leiapadme77

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #25 on: 10-10-2009 07:15 »

Ah, yes I remember that line. Good point!
My husband was just asking me about that the other day when we were watching that episode. I think I told him something similar, that zoidy was probably raised by someone else.
Perhaps my husband was just trying to find a flaw in the brilliant Futurama Writing! Ha! It can't be done!
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #26 on: 10-10-2009 14:23 »

Actually it can, just not where you'd usually expect.

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
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