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Author Topic: Bender's Big Score Time Para-fauxes (spoilers)  (Read 24714 times)
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HipNoJoe
Bending Unit
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« Reply #40 on: 12-01-2007 09:28 »

What about the lucky clover from "Fryrish?"
Officer 1BDI

Starship Captain
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« Reply #41 on: 12-01-2007 13:05 »
« Last Edit on: 12-01-2007 13:05 »


ETA: The above assumption is largely based off of Frisco's "details don't matter as long as the end results are the same or similar to the original" explanation on the last page.
FryFangirlLisa

Bending Unit
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« Reply #42 on: 12-01-2007 22:42 »

Yeah, I agree.

That sounds like a good explanation for the clover.


 
Quote
Originally posted by JustNibblin':
Regarding the tatoo's origin.  I pretty sure the writers intended that to be a joke, in that the origin of the tattoo is a self-contained causal loop.  However, you're right in earlier episodes of the series Fry's butt did not have a tattoo.

As David X Cohen says, "never let reality get in the way of a good joke."
Ah, I see.

So it was only a joke, and we're not really supposed to think of the episodes, as far as Fry's tattoo goes.

That makese sense.  ^^


 
Quote
Originally posted by PazuzuJr:
we the first Lars from the beginin onlgot there because Fry froze himself. there was no Lars when fry becme lrs because it was in the past in abou 2012.
Um, what?  o.o

Could someone explain that to me again, but in a less confusing way?

Hello everyone!  I'm a proud fangirl of these two characters!  ^_^

Philip J. Fry (from Futurama)

Ash Ketchum (from Pokemon)

Allen

Professor
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« Reply #43 on: 12-01-2007 23:04 »

I'm not sure this should go here, but:

Now I'm headed to review the movie.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #44 on: 12-02-2007 00:12 »

Ok, I had a revelation today and I think I figured it out. Theory of Complementary Outcomes reposted below.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frisco17:
As far as the time paradoxes go I saw something that I think is called the "Theory of Complementary Outcomes", or something to that affect. It says that time can only be altered if the outcomes are complementary. For example if Fry had killed his grandfather in Roswell and left he would never exist and never go back to kill his grandfather creating a paradoxical endless loop. However since he slep with his grandmother which ended up leading to a very similar result. The point is that according to the theory details don't matter as long as the end results are the same or similar to the original. This means that any changes have to be minor and relatively insignifigant because everything has such a far ranging affect on everything else. Bear in mind this is just a theory I heard.

I think "paradox correcting" really means paradox ignoring. If you would do something that would create a paradox such as kill you ancestor, you would never be born so you could never go back and kill them. I essence time would reset itself since the outcomes aren't complementary. With the paradox correcting time thing it prevents this from happening. All the times Bender and Fry traveled through time they didn't do anything that would affect the universe that it would make a difference. However when Bender convinced his duplicates to come up from the caves with him "instead of when they were logically supposed to", he changed everything between that time and when he first came up from the caves. This is a huge difference that would cause a paradox. Since the paradox is ignored it basically overloads the universe. This is what the doom part of the equation is. The time code ignores paradoxes to make time travel easier but if it's done wrong your screwed.

(Ducks behind table and waits for someone to shoot my theory to pieces)
Vanguard20

Bending Unit
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« Reply #45 on: 12-02-2007 06:55 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Allen:
I'm not sure this should go here, but:

Now I'm headed to review the movie.


Michelle froze her self to get a fresh start, not to look for Fry. Perhaps she was orginally supposed to thaw in 2266 but because of Lars she ended up in 3002.
JustNibblin

Bending Unit
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« Reply #46 on: 12-02-2007 20:13 »

Just another little anal thing--when the Fry that will eventually become Lars talks with the Fry that returns to the future, he is delayed by one minute from exiting the cyrogenic room.  Shouldn't Bender have caught him before he got to the elevator, since Bender just missed Fry entering the elevator in the original timeline?

It's so fun to poke holes in other people's plots...
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #47 on: 12-02-2007 22:28 »

Fry(Fry) delaying Fry(Lars) probably had some complicated impact on the universe that made Bender spend another minute in the can. Everything affects everything else in trillions of ways you can never imagine.

That was another silly-willy half assed attempt to account for a plot hole. HEHEHEHAHAHUK
Bubble Gum

Bending Unit
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« Reply #48 on: 12-03-2007 11:23 »
« Last Edit on: 12-03-2007 11:23 »


I dont know why this is bothering me so much, cause it is only a cartoon after all........
PazuzuJr

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #49 on: 12-03-2007 15:02 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by FryFangirlLisa:
 
Quote
Originally posted by PazuzuJr:
we the first Lars from the beginin onlgot there because Fry froze himself. there was no Lars when fry becme lrs because it was in the past in abou 2012.
Um, what?  o.o

Could someone explain that to me again, but in a less confusing way?

I think i was either half a sleep or drunk when i typed that lol

i think i meant something like:
Lars only came to the futre because Fry froze himself. There was no Lars when fry becme lars because it was in the past in about 2012.

but i don't know what the hell i was getting at lol.


Bubble Gum

Bending Unit
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« Reply #50 on: 12-03-2007 17:42 »

JustNibblin

Bending Unit
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« Reply #51 on: 12-03-2007 17:55 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frisco17:
Fry(Fry) delaying Fry(Lars) probably had some complicated impact on the universe that made Bender spend another minute in the can. Everything affects everything else in trillions of ways you can never imagine.

That was another silly-willy half assed attempt to account for a plot hole. HEHEHEHAHAHUK

So Lars and BoomBender had a quantum entanglement?  Were entangled quantically?
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #52 on: 12-03-2007 22:26 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by JustNibblin':
 So Lars and BoomBender had a quantum entanglement?  Were entangled quantically?

In some rediculously complicated way that none of us will ever understand? Most likely.

As for the picture Bubble Gum the movie spans at least a few days so the picture could have been taken at any time. The fact that it wasn't shown being taken means nothing.
futz
Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #53 on: 12-03-2007 22:37 »

Sure. Why not?   laff

JustNibblin

Bending Unit
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« Reply #54 on: 12-04-2007 00:12 »

Damn, just noticed the copyright date on the book.  Man, that's clever  wink
Bubble Gum

Bending Unit
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« Reply #55 on: 12-04-2007 12:43 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by PazuzuJr:
 I think i was either half a sleep or drunk when i typed that lol

i think i meant something like:
Lars only came to the futre because Fry froze himself. There was no Lars when fry becme lars because it was in the past in about 2012.

but i don't know what the hell i was getting at lol.



LOL, this reminds me of a conversation I had online once about time travel in "Back to the Future" (I am assuming that most everybody here has seen that trilogy). We had a discussion about how many Deloreans were in 1955 at the same time. They were;

McFlys 1st trip.
Biffs short trip to take the almanac back.
Doc and McFlys trip
The one burried in the Mine since 1885.

The idea that someone had was that the Delorean in the mine was not actualy there till Doc got hit by lightning and sent to 1885, that it apeared there afterwards. My idea was that it was always there.

These same arguments could be made about Fry refreezing himself and Lars trip; were they there the whole time, or did they only exist after the time traveling started?

I am tempted to watch the series and keep an eye out for Lars in crowd shots in seasons 3 and 4.......
km73

Space Pope
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« Reply #56 on: 12-04-2007 17:08 »

They were always there.
The idea of Lars lurking around in any of the old episodes is kind of creepy though.

Also, this is a pretty coherent explanation of paradox-correcting time travel.

 
Quote
Originally posted by JBERGES:
Well, here's what  I had to say on the matter, posted in the wrong spot apparently:

 Here 

So by that scenario it's sort of like they mixed and matched the timelines, creating an effect somewhat like a 'fractured prism' of scenes where viewers feel like they're seeing time at different points and from different perspectives. Causality doesn't follow a linear pattern in the movie due to the writers wanting to bring in elements like the Bender from the end.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #57 on: 12-04-2007 22:39 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Bubble Gum:
 
LOL, this reminds me of a conversation I had online once about time travel in "Back to the Future" (I am assuming that most everybody here has seen that trilogy). We had a discussion about how many Deloreans were in 1955 at the same time. They were;

McFlys 1st trip.
Biffs short trip to take the almanac back.
Doc and McFlys trip
The one burried in the Mine since 1885.

The idea that someone had was that the Delorean in the mine was not actualy there till Doc got hit by lightning and sent to 1885, that it apeared there afterwards. My idea was that it was always there.

These same arguments could be made about Fry refreezing himself and Lars trip; were they there the whole time, or did they only exist after the time traveling started?

That's kinda what my theory deals with. Since the outcomes are similar they don't reset so it is as if the "new" events always happened. Like how Fry's shadow appears next to Nibbler's latter in the series. That little detail doesn't really mean much because it didn't affect anything. So Fry's shadow was always there and the one where it was just Nibbler doesn't exist anymore.

bend_her

Professor
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« Reply #58 on: 12-05-2007 01:07 »

That's why I like to think of time travel purely as moving in another dimension. Simple example: imagine "flatland", a 2D universe. All action on flatland from creation till the end of time is represented in the third dimension. Time travel, then, is to move in the third dimension. Trouble is, when you move back in time, everything gets reset to the state at that point in time, including the synapses in your head that lead you to do what you did in the past... so you repeat them all over again and nothing changes. In other words, there *is* no way to change the past, only to relive it. And the worst part is you won't even realize that you're re-living it.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #59 on: 12-05-2007 22:40 »
« Last Edit on: 12-05-2007 22:40 »

Exactly, that's what I was saying. The only difference is that you can change something it just can't affect you going back and changing it. So it has to be a very small change. Complementary Outcomes again.
Sayna

Crustacean
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« Reply #60 on: 12-08-2007 15:47 »
« Last Edit on: 12-08-2007 15:47 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by soylentOrange:
I think I found a  big paradox



Gah, all your unanswered questions about previous episodes are the same as mine! I want to know, too:


It's so frustrating!

Also: There's a certain song that everybody over at IMDB wants to know the name of. What is the song in the big romantic sequence? It's so pretty.
km73

Space Pope
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« Reply #61 on: 12-08-2007 16:46 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Sayna:


Well, as far as Fry Jr. obtaining the clover goes, it's been determined that either Fry-Lars could have given it to him himself, or that Yancy could still have given it to him at a later time. There are several ways he could've still gotten the clover. 

Sayna

Crustacean
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« Reply #62 on: 12-09-2007 13:24 »

Yes, but now the emotional moment of Fry having disappeared and Yancy giving Fry Jr. the clover as a baby is ruined.
PazuzuJr

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #63 on: 12-09-2007 16:58 »

I know what you meaan. The Luck of the Fryrish lways made me cry but with BBS it doesn't make sense. Why would Yancy name his baby Philip?

But i like to think that eps 1-71 were the origional pst and BBS altered them. So say there was an infinate number of time loops that were interlocked through the time trvel then the first bits would've been loop one and the rest would go on differently because of how loop one was altered.
Sayna

Crustacean
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« Reply #64 on: 12-10-2007 22:03 »

...Uh... okay. *sigh* I'll never understand time travel...

I just remembered something else, though... They (Fry and Leela) were 25 when the show started, right? Well, it's 3007 now, so that means they're 32? That's pretty old. I just can't imagine either of them being that old!
Cleansingfire

Bending Unit
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« Reply #65 on: 12-11-2007 01:24 »

On Michelle:
Sil

Professor
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« Reply #66 on: 12-11-2007 06:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Sayna:
...Uh... okay. *sigh* I'll never understand time travel...

I just remembered something else, though... They (Fry and Leela) were 25 when the show started, right? Well, it's 3007 now, so that means they're 32? That's pretty old. I just can't imagine either of them being that old!

That really, really isn't old  tongue
Also, I don't know what the consensus was about the end of TMLH, but it's suggested that the mucking about with tar and the fountain results in them being younger (except the professor).

km73

Space Pope
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« Reply #67 on: 12-11-2007 08:54 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Cleansingfire:
On Michelle:

But she explicitly said that they had been going to organize a search party for him. And that "nobody" knew where he was. Panucci would have known where he was when he left on the whale search, so there are still some inconsistencies with Cryonic Woman.

Cleansingfire

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #68 on: 12-11-2007 10:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Cleansingfire:
On Michelle:

So some minor details changed. It's not a paradox; it's maybe a retcon. Things still ended up more or less the same.
Vanguard20

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #69 on: 12-11-2007 16:30 »

Cryonic Woman: Michelle just said that nobody looked for him to make him feel like noone cared about him but her. You dont take a woman who sleeps around to be honest do you?

Fryrish: Fry must have given Yancy the clover at some point who in turn gave it to Phillip II. Yancy's 'I miss you, Phillip.' line from Fryrish could have refered to Fry's artic trip.
PazuzuJr

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #70 on: 12-11-2007 16:58 »

ooooo. I like those ideas. They keep the series correct. Still jurrasic park needs to be sorted.


but when we saw Yncy in the movie he was abou 5-7 ist. How long to Fry/Lars go to the arctic cause unless it was longer that like 8 years (since before Yancy got married) then it wouldn't work.
But lines from LOTF still wouldn't work "Your brother may be missing but his crap sure isn't"
Officer 1BDI

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #71 on: 12-11-2007 18:07 »

I could have sworn the flashback showing Leelu's last days at the aquarium/park took place in 2010 (I haven't rewatched the movie in a few weeks, though, so maybe I'm wrong), which would mean that Fry's trip lasted for all of two years, if that.

Also, for future reference, the script draft on the DVD says Phil II is 5 in that scene.
i_c_weiner

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #72 on: 12-11-2007 22:38 »

For all my time travel questions, I always ask Doc Brown...

In Back to the Future Part II, Doc shows Marty that, when they traveled back to 1985 from 2015 after Old Biff had went back to 1955, they had traveled back to 1985A, or 1985 of an alternate time line. Due to this, they cannot go to 2015 to change things back to the way it was because they'd be traveling to 2015A. Therefore, they must go back to 1955 to change things as that is the convergence point.

Now, to this, the regular time line goes on to infinity as it should be and the alternate time line goes on to infinity as it should be, based on the changes in history. So, whenever Bender went back in time after a point which he had changed history, he created an alternate timeline. So, for example, when he stole stuff from Egypt first and then went on to steal the Mona Lisa, the ML stealing occurred in the timeline created by going to Egypt. This explains how, when Bender needs to use the bathroom, he's able to travel back and time and tell himself without this scene being seen the first time around.

However, this theory does not explain things such as Bender From The End showing up, or how Bender is able to return to the regular future instead of ending up in the alternate future he had created.

A theory to explain how Bender is able to return to the regular future is seen in the first ever use of time travel in the movie by Nudar. He's able to return to the regular timeline without affecting history at all as he still meets the PE crew on the Nudist Planet. Somewhat simple explanation: the time travel shown in BBS makes it so anyone around at the time of the time travel does not notice any change in the time line whatsoever. However, any copy and the original who time traveled are able to return to go through history and come to the point where time travel was happened. Until they meet the original version, they are not doomed. Thus, when Bathroom Bender met Copy Bender, it doomed the Copy. Thusly, if the Al Gore who becomes a taxi driver meets up with Emperor of the Moon Gore in the future, it would doom the Taxi version.

This makes it so that, if the crew wanted to, they wouldn't be able to check in the history books about Bender messing up the 2000 election or Fry becoming a whale keeper.


And, to explain the rift in the universe, a traveler, when returning to the point where time travel originally occurred, shifts from one timeline to another suddenly, thus causing a minor rift in the universe. The dooming of a copy thus plugs up this rift. However, when one original time travel, as in the end of BBS when Bender finally comes back one last time, rapidly causing the dooming of multiple copies, it causes a rapid attempt at plugging up the rift caused by the original time travel, thus reversing the desired affect of dooming and causing a greater rift, allowing for the end of BBS.
Sayna

Crustacean
*
« Reply #73 on: 12-13-2007 17:47 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Sil:
 That really, really isn't old   tongue
Also, I don't know what the consensus was about the end of TMLH, but it's suggested that the mucking about with tar and the fountain results in them being younger (except the professor).


I know, but I'm just a youngin' so it seems kind of old to me.

totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #74 on: 12-16-2007 12:37 »
« Last Edit on: 12-16-2007 12:37 by totalnerduk »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nerd-o-rama:
Also, where's TNUK when you need him?  Banned again?

Naah. Just bored of the internet again.

The way that I think it must work is that the Time Sphere creates seperate timelines that diverge and then merge again. This is howcome time-paradox duplicates are always doomed. They cannot co-exist together in the same timeline, and so when the two parallel timelines re-merge, the duplicate dies.

Example:

Nudar goes back in time. He arrives at point x. From point x time diverges into two parallel lines. Those lines then are forced back together at the point when the time sphere was called to send Nudar back. From this point on, the duplicate Nudar is doomed, and very shortly afterwards, he dies. As the professor says, "paradox resolved!"

See diagram:


This does not at first glance appear to resolve certain things. For example, Bender's flyby in the 23rd century actually affected NNYC.

However, this can be resolved if we consider that there are two points at which timelines may merge. If the divergent timelines merge before the point at which the time sphere was activated, then no paradox is created and instead of a divergent timeline from this point, time "loops" back on itself (Not a "stable time loop", as N-O-R was talking about, but the same sort of "loop" that allowed Fry to become his own Grandfather).

Of course, the timelines merging early would have implications for the duplicate, such as a highly increased risk of death due to "accident". This would simply equate to a longer lasting apparant paradox on the diagram. The length of this paradox and the number of paradoxes that the crime spree Bender went on implies is probably the cause of the rift in the universe.

If you don't think that this works, feel free to challenge it. It's only an idea. I'm not saying that this is the intention of the writers, just that this is the closest that I can get to resolving the issues that N-O-R talked about whilst still relying on the divergent timelines closing early for the sake of internal continuity.

Let us also not forget that the tattoo has yet to be explained, and its origin may shed new light on the issue.

Edit: Having just read Wiener's post, I concur with most of what he has said, except for the end. I did have more to say, but I don't want my post to end up five A3 sheets long.

winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #75 on: 12-17-2007 13:40 »

Lars is in his early 40s, Leela is in her early 30s.  Give or take a few years due to TMLH. 

You probably won't be able to go through the original series and find Lars in the background.  I'm almost certain that unlike Nibbler's shadow, this story arc wasn't in mind while the show was being produced, and was created after the fact when they decided to do the movie.

It would have been easier if the writers had just made Fry live in exile away from his old family and friends for whatever reason, since without this, it clearly reinvents cannon that the show's fans have come to love.... LotF and JB most notably.

I like the alternate timelines where the end results are similar or whatever, but they're actually different, and time travel events don't occur until the time traveling occurs.  There is one problem with this, although it might be explained by stretching for an answer.  The problem with this theory is that the writers chose to allude to things in the original series a little too much, and specifically, the problematic event is when Bender steals the Nobel prize and levels (directly and/or indirectly) the New York City outside the window of where Fry was frozen.  The problem here is that SP3k is clearly set in the original timeline, but this event is shown in the timeline, despite being a time travel event.  JBerge's simple explanation could fix this.... for some reason, at different integrals, the writers pick and choose which timeline is being shown.  In that 30 second scene where Fry is frozen (even back when SP3k aired), we're actually seeing an alternate timeline, and then the rest of the episode shows the events of the original.  No one clearly intended for this, but it could be the case.  Or, Bender's ship(s) might possibly look like the ships of someone else who shot NYC to hell in that scene.....

This whole time travel scenario is most certainly a large part of the problems the movie had.  Everybody on the show clearly had good intentions, and the reiterations of past episodes was meant to nostalgiacize the audience, unfortunately it also completely destroys the emotional appeal that some of these episodes had.

I believe if you combine tnuk's, weiner's, and jberges' theories, you'll get something that manages to work.  tnuk's and weiner's suggest how the mechanism works, and jberges' explains how we, as an audience, are perceiving it.

Also, I like weiner's ending.  I think that's the way I thought about how the giant rift is created.
i_c_weiner

DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #76 on: 12-17-2007 20:16 »

The great thing about the divergent time line theory is that it explains Roswell That Ends Well. By time travel causing a divergent time line, it allows for the PE crew to travel back to Roswell, Fry kill and become his own grandfather, and everything to end, well, well. In a way, due to the fact that there were no copies because none of the PE crew existed in Roswell 1949, the time line began its re-merging with regular time when the PE crew traveled back to the future, explaining how the PE crew could be the Roswell aliens yet there being no real discrepencies.

It also explains how Fry lacks the delta brain wave. Due to a lack of a time copy to kill off to correct any paradoxes, time needed something to doom. However, his lack of a delta brain wave also refutes our theory as it is a sign of a deformity caused by being one's on grandparent.
km73

Space Pope
****
« Reply #77 on: 12-17-2007 20:27 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by winna: 
The problem here is that SP3k is clearly set in the original timeline, but this event is shown in the timeline, despite being a time travel event.

You mean, "shown in the divergent timeline". Then couldn't the same thing be said about Bender killing Seymour, as well? 

 
Quote
JBerge's simple explanation could fix this.... for some reason, at different integrals, the writers pick and choose which timeline is being shown.  In that 30 second scene where Fry is frozen (even back when SP3k aired), we're actually seeing an alternate timeline, and then the rest of the episode shows the events of the original.  No one clearly intended for this, but it could be the case.

Yes, I agreed with that somewhere in this thread, too. It's a bit confusing, but it could account for some of the different scenarios. The writers sacrificed causal continuity in order to be able to show varying bits and pieces of different timelines.

JBERGES

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #78 on: 12-18-2007 15:18 »

True, it is a bit odd, and possibly not even intended, but it's also just a bit of Occam's razor put to good use; I'm sticking with it.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #79 on: 12-18-2007 17:59 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by i_c_weiner:
The great thing about the divergent time line theory is that it explains Roswell That Ends Well.

But not as neatly as straightforward time travel does. Y'know, the normal, straightforward paradox-inducing time travel that we get in all the regular instances of time travel. Which I think is what happened there. The time sphere is a different kind of time travel, as I see it. This type of time travel causes divergent time lines rather than causality loops. There are many ways to skin a cat, and many quantum states to the universe.
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