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Author Topic: Bender's Big Score Time Para-fauxes (spoilers)  (Read 23370 times)
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Frida Waterfall

Professor
*
« Reply #120 on: 02-12-2008 18:50 »
« Last Edit on: 02-12-2008 18:50 »

I simply do not understand the concept.

Here's the scene:
1. Fry is frozen in 2000.
2. Fry of 3007 travels back to 2000. This Fry will be called Fry*.
3. Fry* freezes a self-destructing Bender.
4? It can be assumed (to keep it canonical with the timeline) that during this time, Fry* meets Fry' (Fry' is the Fry* of an hour later)
5. Fry* takes the elevator in the cryogenic lab and goes to Panucci's Pizza for pizza, but returns to the cryogenic lab and travels back an hour before, where he becomes Fry'.
6. Fry' briefly meets Fry*. Later, he accidentally freezes himself again when trying to get money from the original Fry.

How was the Fry who becomes Lars created? I can't see how if we only follow one timeline. Was Lars a timeline glitch?

I believe the timesphere is a dangerous tool to transport you back to the past that allows the user to corrupt the past. There is this theory of mine on time that you're probably going to have a difficult time understanding because I don't know how to explain it well in words or it makes no sense whatsoever.

Let me present it in an example. Let's say Bender went back in time to 1505 when the Mona Lisa was still being painted by Da Vinci. He steals the portrait and kills Da Vinci. Bender waits in the limestone cavern back at the Planet Express Building and waits the next 15 centuries out. He leaves the cavern on his cue. He returns to time, unaffected by what he did, but once it becomes 3008, the changes that he made come into effect.

Now, here's it in the best analogy/ies I could think of. Think of the timeline as a string still being made. There's a beginning, but yet it is still in the works and there hasn't been an end made. There is constantly more inches being spooled onto the end. A constant point is right where the wool is spooled into spring is the present. Like the present, it never stays at the same part of the string because there's always a newer end of the string being made.

Now, here's a new analogy to add to that. A change in time is like a wave. It starts out in the middle of the ocean (go along with it, please) and the water in front of it hasn't had that wave go through it yet. The water behind the wave the the past of where that event occurred. That wave travels to the shore. The water that it passes is changed from that wave. As it goes to the shore, the wave grows to something bigger. That is because as different times in the past change, the changes in the future are much more drastic. The shore is like the present. It takes some time for that wave to hit the shore, but when it does, major changes are done. Do you understand?

What I'm trying to say is that it takes time for a change to go into effect into the timeline, but when it does, the effects are devastating.

I don't know if this would help or hurt the timetravel in "Bender's Big Score". My brain's fried from just writing it...
futz
Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #121 on: 02-12-2008 19:40 »

Well what with free will and all...

The split is when Fry is at Pannuci's, the timelines match until the Frys make their choice on what to do next. Fry* returns to the Lab, Fry' just goes up to his new quarters. If Fry' had repeated what Fry* did then he wouldn't have be come a duplicate, just a repeating loop.
Frida Waterfall

Professor
*
« Reply #122 on: 02-12-2008 19:53 »
« Last Edit on: 02-12-2008 19:53 »

So Fry* after being visited by Fry' screwed up the timeline (along with the hundreds of Benders that were convinced to wait longer before coming up to the surface)...

Wait, then how would there be two different Frys visiting Panucci's that night? Wouldn't there have to be a totally different timeline involved? (My brain's still fried, and I still don't understand).
futz
Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #123 on: 02-12-2008 21:19 »

It was the choice of Fry' opting for a room first and not pizza.

Some Quantum theories would call it 2 realities - more like Paraboxes rather than timelines. The choice Fry' made spawned a new reality or universe with it's own timeline. Which is perfectly acceptable in some Quantum theories, an infinite number may also be acceptable.

BBS sticks to a theory that there is only one "true" timeline, ultimately squishing out any paradoxes and ultimately Fry'.
bend_her

Professor
*
« Reply #124 on: 02-13-2008 11:14 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by futz:
The split is when Fry is at Pannuci's, the timelines match until the Frys make their choice on what to do next.
I think the split occurs when Fry meets Fry' in the cryogenics lab. That's what causes Fry' to get delayed a little, which makes him get back to Panucci's just after Mr. Panucci has already tossed the pizza slice into the trash.

BTW, I like Fry' (Fry prime) better than Fry* (Fry conjugate sounds a bit... awkward!)
NastyInThePasty

Professor
*
« Reply #125 on: 02-13-2008 11:30 »

Yeah, but if Fry' doesn't go back an hour for the pizza, then there can't be Fry*. Unless he goes back, the temporal loop is broken. It's like, in the original Terminator, if Sarah told John Connor that Kyle Reese was his father, and John didn't send him back to 1984, then John could have never been born. It's something that has to happen.
Zamorano

Crustacean
*
« Reply #126 on: 03-08-2008 10:36 »

Could all of this time travel confusion be simply explained by the paradox-free time travel from the time sphere? Therefore all the episodes like Fryish, Jurassic etc are not retconned as the time sphere did not alter events?

Also, I like to know where did the original tattoo come from? There must be a starting point?

And why do ppl keep on referencing Devils Hands?
futz
Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #127 on: 03-08-2008 11:35 »

Origin of the tatoo? You'll have to search back in the messages (manual time travel) to about a week or so after the release of BBS. You'll find Xanfor deciphered the time code then which points to the origin of the tatoo.
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #128 on: 03-08-2008 17:40 »
« Last Edit on: 03-09-2008 00:00 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Zamorano:
Also, I like to know where did the original tattoo come from? There must be a starting point?
I seem to recall we had a similar discussion about Fry's Y chromosome.
I'm under the impression both arose as an artifact of time-travel. That is, effects without causes.
  hmpf 
Quote
Originally posted by Zamorano:
And why do ppl keep on referencing Devils Hands?
As I understand it, BBS ignores the implied results between Fry & Leela. Other members of this forum have already explained this better and in greater depth than I. 
Quote
Originally posted by futz:
Origin of the tatoo? You'll have to search back in the messages (manual time travel) to about a week or so after the release of BBS. You'll find Xanfor deciphered the time code then which points to the origin of the tatoo.
   confused
I'm not remembering this.
Could you post a link?
futz
Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #129 on: 03-09-2008 07:06 »

 http://www.peelified.com/cgi-bin/Futurama/11-001240/

Starts about 1/2 way down page 1.
soylentOrange

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #130 on: 04-04-2008 22:14 »

In that scene from BBS where Bender steals the Mona Lisa, Bender holds the unfinished painting up so that Leela's upper body is hidden.  The perspective is such that Leela's lower half looks like an extension of the painting.  Every time I watch the movie I feel like there's a subtle hint here, thought of what I don't have any idea.  Is there a joke hear that I'm missing, or am I making connections where they don't exist again?

Here's what I'm talking about:


So, am I nuts?
futz
Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #131 on: 04-05-2008 00:16 »

Although the Mona Lisa is the subject of a lot of theories put forth by Art History graduate students (she's a man, she's actually a DaVinci self portrait, if you hold half of it up to a mirror it's actually Keith Richards, etc.) I can't think of any that fit such a scene. It's more like Leela being upstaged by "normal" beauty. Somewhat odd for that with all four hands showing/scale difference too.

Compare to the straight-forward joke with Boticelli's "Birth of Venus" in "A Cyclops Built for Two".

So other than Nibbler staring at Bender's crotch plate, I'd say no.
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #132 on: 04-05-2008 21:51 »

Yeah, I think it's just that Leela happened to be standing behind where the painting would be.
Seymour_My_Hero

Professor
*
« Reply #133 on: 04-06-2008 12:54 »

Maybe it means that Bender is good at aligning people's bodies to paintings!
km73

Space Pope
****
« Reply #134 on: 04-06-2008 19:58 »

Well, this is a huuuge stretch, but given that the Mona Lisa is probably the most debated painting in history, maybe that scene was thrown in there to also..cause debate.
Most likely not, though.
x.Bianca.x

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #135 on: 04-09-2008 02:40 »

Hey, if nibbler 'ate' himself at the end of BBS, does that mean there will be no more nibbler? I love nibbler!
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #136 on: 04-09-2008 22:05 »

He'll probably be back. I think that's just his species' way of escaping the universe.

None of what I just said makes any sense.
x.Bianca.x

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #137 on: 04-10-2008 04:07 »

yes HIS species!...
So how does the african species of elephant escape the universe? lol
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #138 on: 04-10-2008 06:45 »

Eat each other?
limegreenaffair

Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #139 on: 04-19-2008 22:17 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by boingo2000:
Another question that just occoured to me:


Man, that question was hard to word so it'd make sense.

But Lars Fry froze himself in Michelle's (I think that was Fry's ex's name...) tube so both Fry1 and Fry2 were out of the tube when Leela was frozen.
limegreenaffair

Delivery Boy
**
« Reply #140 on: 04-19-2008 22:26 »

@Soylent Orange: Hmm... I don't rightly know. Maybe just a dumb joke like the Mona Leela or I dunno.
It was a really neat thing to pick up on though, and it may indeed have some relevance later on although I can't be certain and therefore will just go with "you're nuts."
Frida Waterfall

Professor
*
« Reply #141 on: 07-02-2008 16:19 »

I hate to ressurect a thread from death, but something just came up when watching "Bender's Big Score".

What ever happened to Hermes's time paradox's head? The only time it was ever mentioned was when Bender asked Hermes what he wanted him to do with his head, and Hermes said he didn't care the slightest about his head.
Officer 1BDI

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #142 on: 07-02-2008 20:14 »
« Last Edit on: 07-02-2008 20:14 »

Maybe Bender killed the head?  Or maybe he disposed of it and it died after some time because it wasn't eventually treated and put into a jar?

That's something I would have liked to have seen a passing mention about, though, because now that you mention it I'm curious too.    tongue
ALequalsGREAT

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #143 on: 07-03-2008 12:38 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:

What ever happened to Hermes's time paradox's head?

As a duplicate isn't it doomed no matter what?

ShepherdofShark

Space Pope
****
« Reply #144 on: 07-03-2008 15:18 »

What I want to know is how Bender managed to keep the corpse fresh just waiting in the limestone cavern. Is there a freezer down there?
Frisco17

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #145 on: 07-03-2008 22:31 »

He only went back in time a day or two and it is a cave so it's probably rather cold.
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #146 on: 07-04-2008 02:35 »

    Quote
    Originally posted by ShepherdofShark:
    What I want to know is how Bender managed to keep the corpse fresh just waiting in the limestone cavern. Is there a freezer down there?
    • We don't know from how far in the past Bender 'retrieved' Hermes' time-duplicate body, and therefore;
    • We don't know how long Bender had to keep the body viable.
    Also,
    • We don't know what other means of keeping a body viable there might be in the future.
    Quote
    Originally posted by Frisco17:
    He only went back in time a day or two...
    We don't know that.
    Quote
    Originally posted by Frisco17:
    ... it is a cave so it's probably rather cold.
    Maybe.
    We don't actually know that either.

    Sounds like a good starting point for a fan-fic to me...   wink
    ShepherdofShark

    Space Pope
    ****
    « Reply #147 on: 07-05-2008 05:44 »

    Thinking about it, since we see nothing of this trip back in time, we don't even know if Bender kept it with him in the cavern. But since he had to go back to a time before Hermes was decapitated, the duplicate body certainly would have been waiting unpreserved for longer than the original and possibly without the amazing technology of the future.

    But Bender could've done something like take the body to wherever they were keeping the original, or maybe shove it in a tube at Applied Cryogenics (it was all the rage in BBS) and then pick it up after he reemerged.
    Frida Waterfall

    Professor
    *
    « Reply #148 on: 07-08-2008 22:12 »

    Did anybody believe in the "doomed" paradoxical duplicate concept? I'm not that knowledgable of math and science, but I doubt that there is any science with luck (or doom, in this case) as far as "luckiness" goes. Basically, you can't be labelled as being lucky or unlucky since luck is just merely a coincidence in most cases (chance, when it comes to games and such, is entirely different and still being studied today). It bothered me that they abled these duplicated as being "doomed" when their entire survival was based upon something that really is just a coincidence. Just naming a few examples:

    - Nudar's time-paradox duplicate died when the Professor accidentally knocked down the microscope and it just happened that the microscope was in the right angle to smash him.
    - Hermes's time-paradox duplicate body was crushed when Leela needed a new pen with ink to sign the wedding licenses and held the inkless pen back too far and poked Hermes's eyes on his non-time-paradox duplicate head attached to his time-paradox duplicate body just at the same instant as he was wiping off his glasses and Hermes just happened to trip over the wire holding up the chandelier in the church and as his time-paradox duplicate body was in the position where the chandelier would fall with his head just out to the side, just enough to be cut off.
    - The time-paradox duplicate of Bender that was sent back to time to murder Fry entered self-destruct mode when his both of his programming contradicted one-another and had no other choice but to eliminate both programs through self-destruction. (This will be discussed a bit more later).
    - Fry's time-paradox duplicate managed to live a full 18 years since his creation (that number is correct), but committed suicide/homocide (don't exactly want to call him a suicide bomber, but...) at his own free will.

    The only "deaths" to time-paradox duplicates that made the most sense to me was the self-destructing Benders at the end (and possibly the self-destructing Bender in the cryogenic freezer). Instead of awaiting death, they all just randomly blew up for no appearant reason, which is probably the best way to do it. I would have felt much more comfortable if all the deaths of time-paradox duplicates were of self-destruction to robots or spontaneous combustion (or something of the sort) to lifeforms (of course, I'll never feel comfortable knowing that any canon version of Fry died in such a horrible manner).

    Just a bit off to the side (but still on-topic to the thread), what do you think would just happen to time-paradox duplicate items? Robots are items, and most of them seemed to explode. But, I don't think items have that ability. Eh, just a thought...

    I probably just made a fool of myself with the ridiculous post that's probably incorrect...
    futz
    Liquid Emperor
    **
    « Reply #149 on: 07-08-2008 23:00 »

    Doom and luck aren't two sides of the same coin. You have just been doomed to be slowly burned to death but luckily you were also doomed to have the plane you are in crash into a mountain side. Whew!

    I did think the whole doom field thing in practice was very intricate and arbitrary. But very good for very funny cartoon horrible deaths. Seems the doom field must wait for an opportunity in the arrangement of physical things in the present to make the correction, at least to living things.
    It's unclear if the doom field is active or passive. Question is, is Bender a living thing? Also, are the things he stole duplicates or the originals? I lean toward originals that shouldn't self-destruct.

    There may be newer, better time spheres out there that elimate paradox duplicates on the spot. But there wouldn't be much of a story in it.
    ShepherdofShark

    Space Pope
    ****
    « Reply #150 on: 07-12-2008 14:37 »

    The things he had stolen became duplicates when they chose to stick around, because obviously the Benders still came up with the treasure in the past, as well as all at once in the end. It's the same logic that applies to the other Benders being duplicates. But is Bender a living thing? I guess he must be if it screwed up the universe.

    And now Bender has been labeled a living thing in the first movie and then not alive in the second.

    But I cant say that I care about Futurama consistency - the writers certainly never have.
    Xanfor

    DOOP Secretary
    *
    « Reply #151 on: 07-12-2008 20:17 »

    I think a "living thing" in the Futurama universe is defined as something that emits the delta brainwave, with Fry being the notable exception. Thus, Bender is alive, as robots do emit this wave. However, he is still an electrical device, and electrical devices are what couldn't enter the rift.

    Oh, and as I said earlier, all time paradox duplicates were "doomed" because five-dimensional time was abnormally sped up whenever a paradox was created, thus bringing all duplicates quite quickly to their demise, much like temporally stable beings like ourselves would probably quite quickly be brought to our deaths if our normal four-dimensional time were to erratically increase in speed.

    Perhaps there's a Douglas Adams-style probability axis involved somewhere in here as well...
    km73

    Space Pope
    ****
    « Reply #152 on: 07-12-2008 21:51 »

    Oh, I remember that multivoluminous post...as well as my own semi-coherent response to it...
     red face

     
    Quote
    Originally posted by Xanfor:
    I think a "living thing" in the Futurama universe is defined as something that emits the delta brainwave ...

    Yeah, Bender would be classified as a living thing under that demarcation since the Nibblonians did say that every animal and robot generate that wave, as well as certain trees, after all; but I wonder about that - if that category was intended to include all living things, wouldn't they have specifically mentioned plants, flowers, etc., besides just trees? Plants are living things too. Or is "certain trees" supposed to inclusively imply all that.

     
    futz
    Liquid Emperor
    **
    « Reply #153 on: 07-12-2008 23:39 »

    But the items Bender steals are never taken backward in time from the time they are stolen. They are the originals not duplicates. His actions may rewrite history but the stolen items are not paradox duplicates.

    Humans are little bio-electro-chemical factories. Unclear how Yivo makes a distinction between us and "machines" other than "machines" are created by pre-existing "machines" that rose spontaneously from nature/evolution.
    Frisco17

    DOOP Secretary
    *
    « Reply #154 on: 07-13-2008 20:04 »
    « Last Edit on: 07-13-2008 20:04 »

       
    Quote
    Originally posted by Xanfor:
    Oh, and as I said earlier, all time paradox duplicates were "doomed" because five-dimensional time was abnormally sped up whenever a paradox was created, thus bringing all duplicates quite quickly to their demise, much like temporally stable beings like ourselves would probably quite quickly be brought to our deaths if our normal four-dimensional time were to erratically increase in speed.

    Edit: I remember that one now. Best...post...ever! Which is convenient because it was in the thread with the best title ever.

    Anyway that's more or less the theory that I've always subscribed to. It's pretty much the same as my "complimentary outcomes theory" that I used to explain "Roswell". Incidently said "complimentary outcomes theory" is oddly similar the to Novikov Self-Consistency Principle which I learned of several months later. Long story short Xanfor and I deserve a Nobel prize!


    In closing, I now have an appropriate way to respond to that post you made Xanfor my friend. " Sir, your derangement is impressive."
    km73

    Space Pope
    ****
    « Reply #155 on: 07-13-2008 23:57 »

     
    Quote
    Originally posted by Frisco17:
       
    In closing, I now have an appropriate way to respond to that post you made Xanfor my friend. " Sir, your derangement is impressive."

      laff    laff
    Indeed.
    Frida Waterfall

    Professor
    *
    « Reply #156 on: 07-14-2008 21:15 »

    Since I'm not that well acquainted to theories on time travel, science-fiction and junk, I'm going to leave this thread before I get pulverized for my lack of knowledge on such important topics.

    But, I still have this one question I want to ask before I leave forever (or at least until I obtain sufficient knowledge on this topic, which probably won't be for another seven years or never). I do now have a bit better (could be better) of an understanding on the entire "doom" factor on the time paradox duplicates. However, I may be repeating my original question (I think I am), but wouldn't you think that Hermes's, Nudar's, and Fry's time paradox duplicates would have died in different ways? Hermes's and Nudar's time paradox duplicates' deaths were all just flukes, and Lars chose to die that way. If they were "doomed", wouldn't you expect them to have numerous health problems that lead to their death than just flukes? I could understand Lars's death, as it was his free will to end his life. A bit off the specific topic, but if Lars was doomed, don't you think he would've died during the years back in the 21st century?

    Sorry if I'm a bit of a bother to this thread. If you think I'm coming of scarcastic and annoying, I apologize again. Since I am unexposed to a lot of science and theories, I must come off like a total information-craving imbicile (I wish I had a better vocabulary, too).
    km73

    Space Pope
    ****
    « Reply #157 on: 07-14-2008 21:39 »
    « Last Edit on: 07-14-2008 21:39 »

     
    Quote
    Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:
     Hermes's and Nudar's time paradox duplicates' deaths were all just flukes ... 
    If they were "doomed", wouldn't you expect them to have numerous health problems that lead to their death than just flukes?

    But what are 'flukes' though? It may all be explained through causality and determinism. It could be argued that there's no such thing as a 'fluke'. The time duplicates were causally determined to die in the manner they did.

    Similarly it might not have actually been Lars' free-willed decision to end his life.

    [And if some event doesn't seem logical it may be because we didn't see the cause that preceded the effect, thus the effect might not seem to logically follow on from the cause].

    futz
    Liquid Emperor
    **
    « Reply #158 on: 07-14-2008 21:57 »

    Well all time travel theories are fantasy/theory anyway so what the heck. I posted this back when BBS first came out but it might help to post it again. Note that the Doom Field isn't active toward a paradoxical duplicate until the dupe is in the time after the original of the dupe departed back into time.



    I wouldn't struggle too much trying to give the Doom Field human reasons for it's actions. It's sort of like asking why a tornado "choose" to blow through your home and leave your neighbor's house untouched. The tornado did not make a choice it just does what it does.

    The creator(s) of the Doom Field would probably have to rule out desease/illness as a doom tool since there would be so many in a multitude of species throughout the Universe(s). And they become less usable as time progresses and more cures are found by medical science. Also, they would be ineffective on beings like Bender. Also, they may have been fond of slapstick.
    km73

    Space Pope
    ****
    « Reply #159 on: 07-14-2008 22:27 »

     
    Quote
    Note that the Doom Field isn't active toward a paradoxical duplicate until the dupe is in the time after the original of the dupe departed back into time.

    And that and the diagram explain why Lars had no cause to die during his time back in the 21st century. Not until his existence intersected with the original timeline would he have had any "reason" to cease existing (as per the doom code).
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