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Author Topic: What is dark matter?  (Read 1184 times)
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IamBender

Bending Unit
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« on: 06-21-2005 21:31 »
« Last Edit on: 06-21-2005 21:31 »

Answer: Coal. Im a genius!   smile  wink


Any other guesses?
Wooter

Urban Legend
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« Reply #1 on: 06-22-2005 00:03 »

I think it's this stuff:  http://astron.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/dm.html
gcocca

Crustacean
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« Reply #2 on: 06-22-2005 00:25 »

What? I thought dark matter was that stuff that is really heavy in little black balls on futurama... maybe thats sumthen else... i'm lost i suppose.
TwistedMetalKat

Bending Unit
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« Reply #3 on: 06-22-2005 00:30 »

Dark matter is that stuff black holes are made of.
gcocca

Crustacean
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« Reply #4 on: 06-22-2005 10:30 »

What is the stuff that nibbler makes when he goes to the bathroom?
TwistedMetalKat

Bending Unit
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« Reply #5 on: 06-22-2005 14:19 »

Dark Matter.
Jonny Wobbs

Bending Unit
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« Reply #6 on: 06-22-2005 14:26 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by gcocca:
What is the stuff that nibbler makes when he goes to the bathroom?

Thats dark matter. Its very valuable as space ship fuel.
ebotron

Bending Unit
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« Reply #7 on: 06-22-2005 15:01 »

i think that the black hole stuff is probably where they got the idea for nibbler poop from. The real question however is how does a dark matter reactor work? and how does this power an engine that can apparently move the entire universe around a space ship and how a 12 year old boy was able to dream up such an invention when his clone/father was passed out and no-one could help him stop me if im begining to get too deep profound and ultimatly annoying - wow i don't belive i have ever typed as much on a message board before i need to sleep
Krokei

Starship Captain
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« Reply #8 on: 06-22-2005 15:14 »

Dark Matter, more commonly known as Anti-Matter in the real world.

Don't ask me to explain it because I don't like listening to my Science teacher when she starts talking about anything beyond GCSE level.

Search Google, and *BAM*, question answered. If not, I'd guess to use Wooter's link.
TwistedMetalKat

Bending Unit
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« Reply #9 on: 06-22-2005 15:19 »

Well, I'm just guessing but when a Black hole occurs, a large amount of energy is emitted so I'd guess dark matter can be used as star ship fuel because of how much potential energy it stores.
bending_unit666

Crustacean
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« Reply #10 on: 06-22-2005 15:29 »

I think it is something that clever spacemen of the future invented to use instead of fossil fuels.......or found and stole
btyrie

Bending Unit
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« Reply #11 on: 06-22-2005 15:54 »
« Last Edit on: 06-22-2005 15:54 »

Actually krokei Dark Matter and Anti-Mmatter are very different substances.

This explainasion is a bit technical, but bear with me.

Dark Matter is matter that cannot be detected directly, but whose existence can be inferred on the basis of dynamical studies. Within a spiral galaxy, the stars move as if large quantities of dark matter exist around the galaxy's disk; similarly, within clusters of galaxies, the individual galaxies move as if 10 times more matter is present than that visible in the form of stars and interstellar gas and dust.
Cosmologists suspect that dark matter may account for most of the so-called missing mass needed to make the average cosmic density fit that predicted by the inflationary model. Although the nature of dark matter remains unknown, it could take two possible forms: baryonic matter or non-baryonic matter.
The former is "ordinary" matter, such as makes up the luminous portions of the universe but cast in the guise of objects that are difficult to detect, such as planets, brown dwarfs, and black holes.
Non-baryonic matter, on the other hand, would exist as exotic particles, predicted by certain grand unified theories. There are two possible subgroups of exotic dark matter: hot dark matter (HDM) and cold dark matter (CDM). HDM would be composed of particles such as neutrinos, described as hot because they travel at or very close to the speed of light. Neutrinos are a prime candidate, especially in view of recent evidence that has come down in favor of them having mass. CDM would be composed of weakly interacting massive particles (WIMPs). These particles have relatively large masses, travel relatively slowly and interact only weakly with normal baryonic material; hence, they are difficult to detect. Candidates include the axion and the neutralino.
The currently favored view is that CDM makes up the bulk of dark matter in the Universe, with perhaps a minor contribution of 10 to 20% from HDM. A key prediction of the CDM model, that large galaxies are accompanied by huge retinues of dwarf galaxies (gravitationally drawn in by the CDM halos), won observational support in 2002. A study of large galaxies that act as gravitational lenses revealed that about 2% of their mass must be in the form of dwarf galaxies—equivalent to thousands of these small systems-to explain the lensing effects.

Anti-Matter is basically matter whoes quantum properties are reversed, ie- matter with a negitve mass or negitive charge, when matter and antimatter particles meet, mutual annihilation takes place, releasing an enormous amount of energy, how much?
Well a mere 10 pounds (4.55 kilograms) of the stuff would release alomost twice as much energy as the largest hydrogen bomb ever built (100 megatons).

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.---Albert Einstien
Krokei

Starship Captain
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« Reply #12 on: 06-22-2005 16:20 »

fine, i'll research things before i say them next time.

and from what I just read on google:
Dark Matter could be the result of the combination of Matter and Anti-Matter.
David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #13 on: 06-22-2005 18:59 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Krokei:
Dark Matter could be the result of the combination of Matter and Anti-Matter.

Um, no.  The only result of the combination of matter and anti-matter would be the energy released from their mutual annihilation, usually in the form of gamma rays.

To answer the original thread topic: if we knew what it was, we wouldn't be calling it dark matter.
ShortRoundMcfly

Starship Captain
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« Reply #14 on: 06-22-2005 19:08 »

If you want know a lot more about Anti-matter, play the Protoss campaign of StarCraft. See what happens when your anti-matter missles hit an enemy vehicle, Heh, heh, heh.

I only know a tiny bit about Dark Matter from the Discovery Channel, it is a fairly new discovery and it's the driving force behind the universe and it makes up 95 percent of the known universe. I even heard a physicist refer to it as the real life version of the force.
RectalExamBot

Crustacean
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« Reply #15 on: 06-23-2005 05:14 »

Ah, dark matter.

"We have a model for how the universe works. But since our observations don't fit that model, it must  be the observations that are wrong."

I sometimes wish I was a physicist, so I could say things like "We figure the universe is made up of 95% of stuff which cannot be detected by any means, but it has be be there. It just has to!"

I honestly can't think of any other branch of science that would allow this.

As far as nibbler's dark matter, it's fairly inconsistent. If it weighs more than a thousand suns, how could Fry even get near it, let alone attempt to pick it up? And how could Fry and Bender shovel a whole steaming pile of it into the ship's reactor? Bender's not that strong!
gcocca

Crustacean
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« Reply #16 on: 06-23-2005 09:52 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by RectalExamBot:
Ah, dark matter.

As far as nibbler's dark matter, it's fairly inconsistent. If it weighs more than a thousand suns, how could Fry even get near it, let alone attempt to pick it up? And how could Fry and Bender shovel a whole steaming pile of it into the ship's reactor? Bender's not that strong!

I was just thinking that, they said it was that heavy how could he lift it?
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #17 on: 06-23-2005 10:41 »

Hyperbole.
Hedonism Bot

Bending Unit
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« Reply #18 on: 06-25-2005 04:35 »

It could be possible to work out roughly the weight of Dark Matter, or at least its upper limit. Forty pillows at (if I recall correctly) 150lbs broke a hover-dolly. The back-up dolly didn't break under the weight of four or five blobs of Dark Matter, but still required Bender to jack it up, so it is close to its load capacity. Find out the correct figures, ignore the possibility that the gravity of the ship is weaker than the Gravitational Constant of 9.8, and we have a ball-park figure.

I would do it, but I have to go to work.
Jonny Wobbs

Bending Unit
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« Reply #19 on: 06-25-2005 06:06 »

this might help a little.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #20 on: 06-25-2005 16:19 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by btyrie:
Dark Matter is matter that cannot be detected directly, but whose existence can be inferred on the basis of dynamical studies....Cosmologists suspect that dark matter may account for most of the so-called missing mass needed to make the average cosmic density fit that predicted by the inflationary model.

And I have been convinced for years that "dark matter" does not exist. 

I believe "dark matter" is, like "ether/aether" was in the last century, merely a imaginary construction based on our incomplete understanding of the universe.

To refresh our collective memories: in former times no one could explain the wave-like behavior of light in a vacuum - a wave is just a motion through particles, it must have a medium of said particles to go through (like water, air, or metal).  A wave can't go through a vacuum - no particles means no waves through them, as there is no sound in space.  Yet light (and heat, and radio, etc) did.  So scientists theorized "ether," the invisible substance of space that lightwaves moved through.

Experiments looked for this ether and failed to find it.  Yet light went on behaving like a wave.  The concept of “ether” died only when we found out more about how light really works - light is thought to be composed of “wavicles,” which sometimes act like particles and sometimes act like waves, and don’t depend on an invisible, undetectable medium to travel through.

“Dark matter,” I predict, will not be found; it will vanish when we find out more about how gravity really works.

 
Quote
Originally posted by RectalExamBot:
I sometimes wish I was a physicist, so I could say things like "We figure the universe is made up of 95% of stuff which cannot be detected by any means, but it has be be there. It just has to!"

You and me both, brother!  big grin
cujoe169
Starship Captain
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« Reply #21 on: 06-25-2005 19:57 »

shiny it already seems like ur quite qualified to be one of our resident physicists
Wooter

Urban Legend
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« Reply #22 on: 06-25-2005 21:02 »

More like a physics historian, from what I've read.
Descon

Delivery Boy
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« Reply #23 on: 06-25-2005 21:18 »

From what I have heard and read, the problem of dark matter came when scientists tried to weigh a galaxy based on how much light it reflects, and how their orbits work. when the two numbers didnt match up, they decided there must be some matter that we cannot see, or does not reflect light.

but shiny, you may be right about dark matter, what some physicists suspect is that gravity is made up of strings the same way light is (well close to), but one property of gravitons is their ability to 'jump' dimensional planes (ie, more strings than the one we live on) so my theory on the missing gravitons, is that in the process of jumping dimensions, they have taken the light with them, sort of like a black hole.

now, i know there may be repercussions from talking about interdimensional travel, but trust me, it is something that physicists have considered.
RectalExamBot

Crustacean
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« Reply #24 on: 06-26-2005 02:04 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Hedonism Bot:
 The back-up dolly didn't break under the weight of four or five blobs of Dark Matter, but still required Bender to jack it up, so it is close to its load capacity.

But the ship has a gravity pump! The dolly only broke from those pilows because they took it outside of the ship's field.
btyrie

Bending Unit
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« Reply #25 on: 06-26-2005 17:57 »

40 pillows at 150lbs each (when outside the ship) gives a total weight of 6000lbs (approx 2720kg)

There were a total of eight dark matter spheres on the hover dolly, in order to break the dolly they would have to weigh 750lbs (approx 340kg), obviously they didn't weigh this much because if they did then the dolly would of broken. So lets say each sphere weighed 745lbs, that would give a total weight of 5960lbs, whether or not this would cause the dolly to break eventually I don't know, as there are other things you would have to take into mind when trying to work out if the spheres would break the dolly, ie- amount of pressure exerted on the dolly, also the weight of the dolly would have to be taken into account as on the planet the dolly would also weigh more than in the ship, therefore the dolly motors would have to work harder to keep it hovering and of course the increased weight of the dolly would cause increased stress on the dollies structure.

By the way the weight of 1lb of dark matter was stated to be greater then 10,000lbs not a thousand suns.
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #26 on: 06-26-2005 18:11 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by btyrie:
By the way the weight of 1lb of dark matter was stated to be greater then 10,000lbs not a thousand suns.

Two different episodes...

LLLiS: 1 lb = 10000 lbs (illogical statement)

The Why of Fry: 1 sphere weighs as much as a thousand suns (hyperbole)

As for the calculations, we don't know if 6000 lbs (why didn't they use metrics!! So much for the scientific excellence of the Futurama writers...) is the breaking point of a hover dolly, it could just as easily be 3000 lbs. All we know is, 6000 lbs is over the limit.

Additionally, the back-up dolly might've been a lesser version of the hover dolly, why else is it the back-up dolly?
RectalExamBot

Crustacean
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« Reply #27 on: 06-27-2005 03:42 »

We don't learn anything from the fact that they didn't break the hoverdolly. The dolly only broke from the pillows when they took it outside of the ship's gravity pump field. On the ship, the dolly can support an unknown (but very high) weight.

If they had loaded up the dolly, then taken it off the ship, we might have some insight here. But since it stayed on the ship, and thus within the ship's gravity pump field, we learn nothing from them having it on the dolly while the dolly is on the ship.
I

Starship Captain
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« Reply #28 on: 06-29-2005 09:38 »

Shiny a month late...: The problem with thinking of photons as "waveickles" is that all particles have those waveic attributes. Shoot protons one at a time on a film and you will get just the same spread out pattern as with photons.

Descon: Now, I too have great hopes in string theory, but we must remember that most of the scientific community is dead set against it. Not all that many scientists rule out the possibility of extra dimensions, though they don´t fit in well in the curent model, but they have a horn on the side for the strings. It´s calmer now, but we used to be a scorned minority up untill a decade ago.
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #29 on: 06-29-2005 23:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by cujoe169:
shiny it already seems like ur quite qualified to be one of our resident physicists
 
Quote
Originally posted by Wooter:
More like a physics historian, from what I've read.

Wow, thanks - both of you.  I wish I was that edumacated, but I'm a member of Fry's class (a certified dropout  roll eyes ).  I just read a lot.  But science and how it advances (or doesn't) has always been interesting to me.  The parallels between ether and dark matter are just too great not to notice; problem is, most scientists don't seem to study history and most historians don't seem to study science. But Isaac Asimov's science essays always went to the beginning (usually the Greeks) and followed the subject forward, and I love that approach.  (I learned the story of ether first from him).

I: I didn't say we understand everything about light or other particles; just that we know enough to say there's no ether.  As for string theory, well, EVERY theory that breaks an old paradigm starts life as the red-headed stepchild; some chemist, I can't remember who, once complained that the only way for new ideas to be accepted in science is for old scientists to die.  People just get attached to their worldviews and don't want to give them up. 
duff77
Poppler
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« Reply #30 on: 07-01-2005 17:44 »

Dark matter is a strange scientific concept the Futurama writers decided to use to take the place of coal and, one time, oil (in the penguin episode).  But I'm sure the nerds on the staff knew what they were doing picking dark matter to be a show element that was so flexible in size and shape.
Bendin´ It

Crustacean
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« Reply #31 on: 07-14-2005 21:21 »

It's S***.
PumaGirl

Starship Captain
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« Reply #32 on: 07-15-2005 03:53 »

Dark Matter, Anti Matter and alike are often used in  science fiction series to somehow give a justification how spaceships can move faster than light (as far as I know that's impossible). Also I agree that the whole idea of dark matter in physics is a way of easily explaining a phenomenon that we can't explain yet. So only a matter of time before the idea of dark matter goes.  smile
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
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« Reply #33 on: 07-17-2005 10:01 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by TwistedMetalKat:
Dark matter is that stuff black holes are made of.

Uh, no it's not. A black hole is a singularity surrounded by an event horizon. The singularity by defination has no dimensions and lacks the structure of matter dark or otherwise.

benderForPres

Crustacean
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« Reply #34 on: 08-09-2005 14:30 »

the truth is that scientists dont really know what dark matter is.  All that is known is that there is not enough regular matter (baryonic particles such as neutons protons and electorns) present in galaxies to explain why they are held together.  If galaxies were composed of regular matter alone there would not be enough gravity to hold them together, and they would fly apart.  A leading theory is that baryonic matter collects around boundaries bewteen dark matter particles.  Galaxies would then form in these deposits.  Whatever the stuff is though, its definately not to be found in the form of black balls falling out of some cute little alien's ass. 
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #35 on: 08-09-2005 15:09 »

There may not even be such a thing as "Dark Matter."
BenderforPres is right about one thing at least; the pointy-headed cosmology types have figger'd that there just isn't enough matter to exert enough gravitational force to explain why, for example, galaxies rotate the way they do.  confused  One postulated solution to this is that the the matter is out there but, we just can't see it. That is, dark matter.   eek

But...

Those same pointy-headed cosmology types have invented "String Theory." One feature of String Theory says, that there are additional spatial dimensions 'wound up' in our universe, as well as the three we can see ( length, width, and height). There's plenty of gravitatin' going on out there, but owing to vagueries of the theory that I sure as hell don't understand, the 'missing' gravitation might be 'leaking' away along those other spatial dimensions.
(Try wrapping your mind around that!  wink)

If this is the case, "Dark Matter" will vanish from thought, like the 'aether' of the ninteenth century... but that is a different story...   hmpf

I'll just ooze back under the laboratory door now...
Shiny

Professor
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« Reply #36 on: 08-13-2005 19:02 »

Space Case: exactly.  That's a good example of paradigm shift.

String theory may not the the one that wins in the end, but I'd bet $100 right now that "dark matter" is our century's version of ether.
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #37 on: 08-14-2005 13:57 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Shiny:
Space Case: exactly.  That's a good example of paradigm shift.

String theory may not the the one that wins in the end, but I'd bet $100 right now that "dark matter" is our century's version of ether.

Waitaminute...

Are you saying that you think I sound like I know what I'm talking about?  roll eyes

<*Shudder*>

There's a scary thought...  eek
  wink
Al

Crustacean
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« Reply #38 on: 08-18-2005 06:10 »

Hi

Dark matter is the third leg of the tripod-paradox of dark matter, antimatter and doesn't matter.
SpaceCase

Liquid Emperor
**
« Reply #39 on: 08-18-2005 12:57 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Al:
Hi

Dark matter is the third leg of the tripod-paradox of dark matter, antimatter and doesn't matter.

*DING!*
*DING!*
*DING!*

Ah, we have a winner.

Um, just one thing...

What about

Wassa-matter?  big grin

<Buh-DUMP-bump>

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.
Try the chicken, and don't forget to tip your waitress...

<Dodges thrown tomato>

Geeze! Tough room...
  wink
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