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Author Topic: [3ACV19] Roswell that ends well  (Read 2593 times)
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« on: 12-10-2001 03:29 »

Some things:
FrysGIRL

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« Reply #1 on: 12-10-2001 04:10 »

I knew this topic was going to go up. I don't think Fry got neutered by the F-ray. I see it as a temporary loss of sperm. I'm not even going to speculate on the "How can Fry be his own grandpa" issue. It'll get complicated after 55 posts anyways.
DrThunder88

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« Reply #2 on: 12-10-2001 05:02 »

Yeah, what are the chances that Fry's DNA would remain unchanged through two generations?  That's probably the most gross neglect of chronophysics and statistical biology.  We're left wondering how his DNA was so changed by his grandma and then whacked back into place by his mom.  Furthermore, why is his name still Fry if his grandpa Fry died prior to marrying Fry's grandma?  Further furthermore, are we to believe that Fry's characteristic hair is a combined genetic effort of his two parents' DNA?

There's so much we don't know about quantum physics and how it applies to the realism of science fiction cartoons and action films about killer cyborgs.  Steven Hawking should really live in Hollywood.
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« Reply #3 on: 12-10-2001 09:56 »

Various things:

First, Fry isn't his own father, he's his own grandfather, and we can't even be sure of that.  Second, perhaps he mentally screwed up his grandparents, because if you recall, his paternal grandfather's name was Yancy, and I don't recall them mentioning his grandfather's last name at all.  Also, his mother had the orange hair and his father had brown hair.  Third, sperm grow back.
Chump

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« Reply #4 on: 12-10-2001 11:02 »

I noticed that too... what happened to the Yancy tradition?
VelourFog

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« Reply #5 on: 12-10-2001 12:18 »

 
Quote
sperm grow back

haha.
McGrady

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« Reply #6 on: 12-10-2001 12:28 »

From luck of the fryish, Fry's father states to Fry's brother (Yancy), that Fry's brothers name is Yancy, my name is Yancy (aka Fry's father), my grandfather, and so on, all the way back to Minute Man Yancy Fry...

In Roswell that ends well, fry mentioned many times that Enis was his grandfather, (and shouting at Enis, "It will be ok dad".  The tree would go like:

Yancy+Some woman = Enis + Mildred = Yancy (Fry's father) + Fry's Mother = Yancy and Fry

So on this count, the timeline is correct... but It could be that Mildred's Father was the Yancy, causing the break in tradition (can't name an only daughter Yancy)

Now, Brown hair is more dominate than light red hair (or orange...)  It would go that Enis/Fry+Mildred would give a brown haired child most likely (up to 75% chance).  Going off of this, Fry's mother would have almost had to have had orange hair for his to turn orange, while his brother's stay brown.

I think the joke is, at the end, with Farnsworth stating, "If time doesn't care he is his grandfather, why should we"... the fact of the matter is, assuming Fry is his own grandfather, it wouldn't matter with genes all that much, as Fry would not exist if he was not his own grandfather.  There is a famous old story that goes like this:

One day a guy travels into the future and brings back a knife, but won't tell anyone where he found it.  He then dies.  The knife is made out of amazing materials, that no one can duplicate.  It is a superconductor, little/no weight, can't be broken or dulled, etc.  It is put into a museum.  Anyway, his son travels into the future to see where his father found this knife.  However, the further into the future he goes, the more destroyed the earth is, and he starts freaking out.  He goes down in steps, trying to find this civilization who finds the knife.  Finally he goes into the future only a few years, and notices that the world is still in shambles from war, no people alive, etc.  He looks at the museum where the knife is stored, and is surprized to see his father walk into the destroyed remains of the museum, to pick up the knife that was stored there, and take it back to the past, for everyone to be astonished at.  The question is, where did this knife come from?

This is very similar to what happens with Fry.  He would not exist if he was not his grandfather, and he would have the exact same genentic makeup, because it would just have to be (of course, going off what we know of physics, the universe would probably disolve into radiation from this).

Also, if you are really worried about it, assume the niblonians changed things around, they did it with Fry in the first place.

I would say that Enis is not his grandfather, as he was slightly gay and probably really never had sex with mildred
DrThunder88

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« Reply #7 on: 12-10-2001 13:28 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by McGrady:
One day a guy travels into the future and brings back a knife, but won't tell anyone where he found it...

Do you, sir or madam, suggest that Fry's very existence is both spontaneous and anomalous?  And what the heck is the point of making a superconductive knife?  "Look at me play with the colosso-magnetoresistance of my knife."  Speaking seriously, if I may...I've never heard that story.  I thought you were going to tell the story of the man who was mysteriously transported back in time to the day Linclon was shot, which would have illustrated your point a bit better (and in truth, is what this episode was all about).  The story you told is more like the story of the extra brick.  Click here to read, it's pretty good.

The great paradox posed by both of our stories is: "Why did we create such an elaborate fictional scenario, generate an equally ficticious and exceedingly elaborate problem, and then pose a question with no answer (not even a deeply spiritual answer)?"  The only answer I can come up with is: "I don't think anyone knows, and I think even fewer people care."

By the way, the Lincoln story can be paraphrased like this:  Man goes back in time and realizes he's come back to the day Lincoln was shot in Ford's Theater (really?  I thought he was shot in the head.  ba-dum-bum-bum).  He goes around the streets of D.C., raving like a derelict, claiming that the President will be shot.  He's eventually snagged by the fuzz, and thrown in the pokey until he calms down.  He tries unsuccessfully to talk his jailers into stopping the assassination, but they laugh in his face like he's speaking jibberish.  Anyway, Booth busts a cap in Abe's dome, and word spreads like wildfire.  I can't remember what happens to the guy, but everyone he's met is suddenly stunned by his knowledge.  I think he makes it back to his own time with no recollection of what happened.

Five thousand bonus points if you can tell me the name of that story.

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DrThunder88

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« Reply #8 on: 12-10-2001 13:32 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nixorbo:
Third, sperm grow back.
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
 haha.

Allegedly so.  The human body goes through a complete change of cells every seven-or-so years.  As long as his sperm-production organs (testicles) were undamaged, he should be able to crank out numerous armies of cells bearing his genetic material.
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« Reply #9 on: 12-10-2001 14:30 »

There are many easy explanations for the Fry thing. Could be Grandma Mildred shacked up with the mailman, that's where the kids really came from, not Enos. I mean, we know she's easy. Or Enos could have impregnated her prior to his death. I mean, he had sexual questions and curiosities and whatnot... but he wasn't a total limpwrister. And Mildred did sleep with Fry because he reminded her of Enos.

Regarding the regrowth of Fry's sperm - yes. I mean, sperm are always being produced, like thousands daily. Just because the F-ray screwed a bunch up doesn't mean the body won't make any more. True, a higher percentage of them might be deformed and damaged after F-ray bombardment of the testicles... but hey. Can't mess up ALL of them!



TMC never says anything nice if he can find a reason to say something which will hurt as badly as taking a beehive to the testes.
VelourFog

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« Reply #10 on: 12-10-2001 14:52 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrThunder88:
 Allegedly so.  The human body goes through a complete change of cells every seven-or-so years...

I wasn't laughing because I didn't believe Nix.  I was laughing because of the way he phrased it.  Besides everyone who's been through public school sex ed knows that men continue to produce sperm while women only have a set number of eggs that wither and die leaving them barren and alone.

TheMadCapper

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« Reply #11 on: 12-10-2001 15:13 »
« Last Edit on: 12-10-2001 15:13 »

Hooray for being a woman! Being male, I'll never know the joy of the inability to reproduce! Genetic uselessness must be fun, but I'll never know!
I can reproduce my whole life long! Other than the little problem of how no woman would ever get anywhere near me if I actually espoused and said things like that.
McGrady

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« Reply #12 on: 12-10-2001 16:52 »

The episode is based off of the paradox of both killing your grandfather and becoming your own grandfather.  It has nothing to do with having an extra brick because of bad instructions (although a funny story, it does not have anything to do with time travel), finding a knife that cannot exist (the knife is created out of materials that do not currently exist; this was the point trying to be made), or traveling back in time trying to stop lincoln assassination.  If, however, the person traveled back in time and whose freaking out about lincoln being assassinated CAUSED lincoln to be assassinated, it would be very very similar to the episode.  The only reason I brought up the science fiction story (As never was, P. Schuyler Miller) was because it had some basis of the chicken or the egg scenario.  Assuming Fry is his own grandfather (as that is what was strongly suggested in the episode, with no strong contradicting evidence (specifically, it was not implied that she was pregnant at the time of Fry, or that she later had sex with anyone else, but it was stated that Fry was his own grandfather.  Of course, I could be in error as I am going off of a cartoon show that never showed what happened before or after Fry.)  The ages are approximately correct... With fry being born around 1975 (being 25 years old), and his father being 30 at the time, that means his father would have been born around 1945.  The purpose of my posting the story is relevent when you look at Fry; his coming into existance was because he, in the past, fathered his father, which is extremely similar to a knife whose existance in the future is only because it was brought to the past.  So yes, I am saying Fry's existance is spontaneous and anomalous, assuming he is his own grandfather.  Mildred might have just said it was Enos's child, because she never knew Fry's name, and this a big no no during the 40s.

The story of going back in time and killing your grandfather has existed for a very long time... since before 1940, as I have read science fiction from that era relating to the grandfather paradox.  The chicken or the egg idea is even older than that.
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« Reply #13 on: 12-10-2001 17:02 »

Ow ow ow . . .
FrysGIRL

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« Reply #14 on: 12-10-2001 17:12 »
« Last Edit on: 12-10-2001 17:12 »

See! That's why they held back on the time travelling episode until later; It's tricky and technical. It's not supposed to make sense. It's fun trying to make sense out of it though.     big grin
rach_the_tall

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« Reply #15 on: 12-10-2001 21:43 »

Not seeing this episode makes the posts infinetly harder to understand.
VelourFog

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« Reply #16 on: 12-10-2001 22:22 »

you noticed that too Rach?
DrThunder88

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« Reply #17 on: 12-10-2001 22:42 »

No no no.  The knife story is exactly like the brick story.  They are both tales of anomalous existence.  The brick story didn't involve time travel because it didn't need to.  It still posed the same problem of explaining the appearance of the enigmatic object.  If I had added that the man went back in time to count all his bricks and examine the instructions before he started and found that there were the proper number of bricks, and the instructions were flawless, then the stories would have been even more similar.  No one knows where the brick, which shouldn't have been there, came from or why it's there at all.  Same with the knife.  No one knows where it came from.  Neither the man nor his son know the origins of the knife.  It's entirely possible that aliens dropped the knife shortly before the museum was destroyed by the anarchy surrounding it.  It's equally possible that the brick was left by the same aliens just as the other guy started to build his pit.

I think the moral of these stories is that the future is unchangeable as it is already the past.  Either aliens leave something behind that boggles our primitive minds or we try to stop a ripple in history.  There is a saying that I've forgotten that pretty much said that history is never complete.  There will never be a complete record of history.  History is written by the winners and shoveled on the heads of the losers.  There will always be forgotten instances in history where some drunk was locked up for babbling like a fool.  There may have been someone knew about the Kennedy assassination and was "silenced" by the government.  Will man ever travel through time?  I think they will, and that they already have.  Who knows?  We certainly do not, and we certainly never will.
DrThunder88

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« Reply #18 on: 12-10-2001 22:45 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by rach_the_tall:
Not seeing this episode makes the posts infinetly harder to understand.

One would think that, but it's actually pretty hard to understand when you have seen it.

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Bendo

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« Reply #19 on: 12-10-2001 23:17 »
« Last Edit on: 12-10-2001 23:17 »

Well, I'll add my own conspiracy theory regarding Fry's grandfather. Wouldn't he have two sets of grandparents? That would probably solve the problem of continuity. Was Fry's grandfather from The Luck of the Fryish married to Mildred or did it say in that episode?
RM
Oh wait, scratch that he called out to his father in this episode. Way off base on this one but I am sure somebody could make it work.   smile
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« Reply #20 on: 12-10-2001 23:22 »

I still say that Fry got his grandparents mixed up, for the reasons stated above.
Gumbercules

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« Reply #21 on: 12-10-2001 23:28 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by McGrady:
Also, if you are really worried about it, assume the niblonians changed things around, they did it with Fry in the first place.

I would say that Enis is not his grandfather, as he was slightly gay and probably really never had sex with mildred

I am assuming that the Nibblonians are the cause of everything we can't make sense of.

Enos is probably gay (don't ask, don't tell), but I imagine Mildred forcing the issue.  She might have already been pregnant, we just don't know at this point.
VelourFog

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« Reply #22 on: 12-11-2001 00:18 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by DrThunder88:
It's equally possible that the brick was left by the same aliens just as the other guy started to build his pit.

couldn't the kit just include an extra brick?  I'm sure the factory workers could make a mistake now and then loading the kits.

I think anyone interested in these stories would make excellent politicians.  big grin

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« Reply #23 on: 12-11-2001 00:44 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
 couldn't the kit just include an extra brick?  I'm sure the factory workers could make a mistake now and then loading the kits.

Yes, but on the same token, couldn't aliens have delivered the knife?

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McGrady

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« Reply #24 on: 12-11-2001 15:01 »

No the knife couldn't have been delivered by aliens, as the knife has always existed in that time frame, of "now to 30 years in the future".  The knife does not exist before this time because it is from the future; the knife does not exist after this time (30 years in the future), because it was taken into the past.  The knife was found in the future because the knife was brought to the past.

Here is another example: if someone travels into the future and brings back technology, then the reason the future's technology it is, is because he brought the technology back in the first place.  Ergo, the reason Fry exists is because he created himself indirectly.

I am saying he is his own grandfather, because that is what the show said.  No one besides Fry said that Enos was his grandfather, and Fry killed him.  The professor (the smartest person of the group) stated that Fry was his own grandfather.  They will probably never refer to this again, beyond possibly a running gag (Mr. I'm my own grandpa).  Therefore, he is his own grandfather until proven otherwise.

The extra brick is an anomoly in the sense that:
1.) The instructions are correct (include every single brick numbered with detailed instructions on each number of each and every brick, 1-100)
2.) There are the proper number of identical bricks to the instructions (and the bricks are numbered).
3.) The instructions were followed perfectly (with every brick placed in the correct posistion)
4.) An extra brick is left over (with no repeated numbers)

If all these conditions are satisfied, then this object is an anomoly to our universe, as the instructions included every brick, but an extra brick was left over -- but it couldn't have been according to the instructions (ergo, something is incorrect)

However, this story is not very well related to Fry creating himself; the story is not related to time travel, the only thing it has in common is the fact of an anomoly of some sort.  Even if the person travels through time to count bricks in the past, it doesn't have anything to do with paradoxes caused by time travel, it is an anomoly caused by something not explainable with the universe.

I believe the story I am refering to is a better description; it includes the paradox caused by time travel.  The knife exists in the current now because of the future, and it exists in the future because of the now (paradox).  Fry exists in the future because he created himself in the past(paradox).
Kryten

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« Reply #25 on: 12-11-2001 15:03 »

[gumby] MY BRAIN HURTS! [/gumby]
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« Reply #26 on: 12-11-2001 15:13 »

[Pinky]Naaaaaaarf[/Pinky]
DrThunder88

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« Reply #27 on: 12-11-2001 16:25 »

Alright, I'll concede that the brick story is an oversimplification of the situation of anomalous existence, and I'll also concede that the knife story is a better parallel of Fry's story.  I think our disagreement has to do with whether Fry was a fly on the wall of history, or the stylus of history.  I, frankly, believe the former.  It seems illogical to be able to travel to and change the past, thereby changing the future into an alternate scenario where time travel does not occur at all or with different motives.  I guess you can say I'm a big fan of history and a man fearful of the Butterfly Effect as it relates to temporal fluctuations.

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TheMadCapper

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« Reply #28 on: 12-11-2001 17:52 »

Dude, this is ridiculous. Fry's existence if he is indeed his own literal grandpa violates lots of laws. Quit throwing around the fifty-cent terms, we all understand that it's not possible.
Allen

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« Reply #29 on: 12-11-2001 19:12 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by TheMadCapper:
Dude, this is ridiculous. Fry's existence if he is indeed his own literal grandpa violates lots of laws. Quit throwing around the fifty-cent terms, we all understand that it's not possible.

Actually, even though it violates laws, it doesn't matter. No one ever knew it happened. But there is one thing I'd like to say. If Fry is his own grandfather, the future would have to already exist. And that thus also says that time is a never-ending loop (At least that is) which means Fry is doomed to keep going back to 1947 to stay in existence. This means that history really does repeat itself. But I digress. I have a headache smile

TheMadCapper

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« Reply #30 on: 12-11-2001 20:25 »

Like I said before, there are many reasons why Fry doesn't have to be his own grandpa. I prefer that solution.
VelourFog

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« Reply #31 on: 12-11-2001 22:05 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by McGrady:

4.) An extra brick is left over (with no repeated numbers)
.

then what number is on the left over brick?  because if one brick is left over and ALL bricks are numbered..... that brick must have a number.  What is it.

McGrady

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« Reply #32 on: 12-12-2001 01:31 »

I think the real question should be, if he is his own grandfather, wouldn't he be picked up (in the very first episode) as hubert farnsworth's great great great great great... great grand father, rather than great great uncle?  Therefore, assuming continuity of the series, he is not his own grandfather, and farnsworth was just in error (of course, this could have been a divergent timeline he was in but that is another debate and I don't want to get into it).

This, I think, is the best argument for if you believe that Enos is actually Fry's grand father, rather than Fry being his own grandfather.  Course, the machine could have lied, but that is getting too complicated (just a loop hole out in case they wanted to do that).
ShineyMetal@$$

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« Reply #33 on: 12-12-2001 02:01 »

Velour - #42

I was thinkin about this for a while, then i realized, so they screwed around with history, its not real, its not possible, if one tiny thing in history is changed, poeple would just start popping in and out of existance, and our memories would have to be constantly altered to beleive what was changed, really happened. So , The end! please.
TheMadCapper

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« Reply #34 on: 12-12-2001 02:06 »

Far as I can tell, the brick thing is just a set of mutually exclusive circumstances. Like "all people have black hair" and "You are a person who has brown hair". It's just a little more elaborate, with the numbering and whatnot.
VelourFog

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« Reply #35 on: 12-12-2001 09:12 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by ShineyMetal@$$:
if one tiny thing in history is changed, poeple would just start popping in and out of existance, and our memories would have to be constantly altered to beleive what was changed, really happened.

i have a question.  people always say this, that if one thing was changed the world would be all messed up.  But is there any reall proof to that?  I mean we can't prove if time travel even exists so how can we prove its effects?  Maybe fry was supposed to be his own grandfather all along.  ever thought of that?
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« Reply #36 on: 12-12-2001 09:37 »
« Last Edit on: 12-12-2001 09:37 »

Or maybe there are now two timelines - the original, where Fry is not his own grandfather, which was unaffected and remains intact, and a new timeline branching off from the original where unimaginable consequeces result from Fry's little slip up.  Of course, the other possibility exists that the normal timeline was obliterated, and now the DNA of Fry, the Professor, etc, has been changed, and is considered normal.  Hooray for Star Trek time travel theories!

Actually, in relation to time travel, the most scientifically accurate version I've seen is from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3.  That's right, TMNT 3.  In it, they actually followed conservation of matter by actually trading places with someone of the same exact mass.
impact

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« Reply #37 on: 12-12-2001 12:01 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nixorbo:
Or maybe there are now two timelines - the original, where Fry is not his own grandfather etc...

Yup, alternate realities theory at its best...
FishyJoe

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« Reply #38 on: 12-12-2001 16:05 »

Yes, but in TMNT 3, they could only travel through time while holding that sceptar thingy.

Yet, if you'll recall, at the very beginning when the turtles first travel back in time, they end up on horses riding into battle. Why in the world would all four samurai type guys be holding the sceptar at the same time while riding around on horses and going into battle? Damn it, it makes no sense! That was easily the worst TMNT movie.
FishyJoe

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« Reply #39 on: 12-12-2001 16:27 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by VelourFog:
Maybe fry was supposed to be his own grandfather all along.  ever thought of that?

Isn't that what we're talking about(with the whole knife story and what-not)? If he was "supposed" to be his own grandfather, how would he exist in the first place?

My theory*: if he becomes his own grandfather, he would still be the same "person", but maybe he'd look different since he'd be diluting his own genes. So instead of ceasing to exist, his hairstyle changes or something. But nobody notices since history has been changed, and his new hairstyle is something they always remembered him having.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

[*sorry if someone else posted that theory first. I'm lazy and sometimes only skim the really long posts]

Also, that whole brick story is pointless and doesn't really make sense to me, but I laugh at the fact that his "blood began to boil" after seeing the extra brick. Haha, what a loser.

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