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Author Topic: Bender in the army  (Read 430 times)
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Benderboy123

Bending Unit
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« on: 10-24-2004 13:02 »
« Last Edit on: 10-28-2004 00:00 »

After reading the threads about Bender's invincibility, his attempts at suicide,getting shot by professor in Xmas story, and everything else. After seeing  War is the H-word,since Bender can't get killed, and other robots should'nt either,why don't they just program robots to go fight thier wars? it would save alot of peoples lives, and robots are really good at everything thier programmed to do, why not do that?

Rodney Dangerfield, rest in peace. "when I was born, I was so ugly that the doctor slapped my mother instead of me!"
Eyedol7513

Liquid Emperor
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« Reply #1 on: 10-24-2004 13:10 »

Fry said something about that in WAA. He starts to ask Zapp why don't they send the robots in first, then Bender starts to immediately strangle him. (Much like Homer chokes Bart. Is that a connection or a coincidence?)
Teral

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« Reply #2 on: 10-24-2004 13:33 »

Sure they probably can't be killed with projectile weapons (although that's debateable since Leela's riffle shot in "The Birdbot Of Ice-Catraz" did cause Bender to shut down), but energy weapons can. Throw enough power behind that energy beam and you disintegrate the robot. Or use electromagnetic fields, just fry their computer circuits. Or magnetic fields. Either you tear the robots apart or you make it impossible for them to move.

Then there's the problem of how mobile robots are in uneven terrain. Wheeled robots would have problems in rocky terrain, etc. And you need to get enough alcohol to fuel them. And money to manufacture them

Then there's the whole thing with robot intelligence. If they're intelligent enough to act independently, they're sentient beings and forcing them to wage war is akin to slavery. If they're not sentient they're too stupid to make battlefield decisions.

Though they did have Killbots, as mentioned in LLLiS, but they couldn't control them. Once activated the Killbots would kill anything.
VoVat

Bending Unit
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« Reply #3 on: 10-24-2004 20:27 »

 
Quote
Then there's the whole thing with robot intelligence. If they're intelligent enough to act independently, they're sentient beings and forcing them to wage war is akin to slavery. If they're not sentient they're too stupid to make battlefield decisions.

Well, the patriotism circuits that we see activated in "When Aliens Attack" might override a certain amount of robot sentience, while still letting the robots make decisions on the battlefield.
laroquettespine

Bending Unit
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« Reply #4 on: 10-24-2004 21:13 »

There are robots being used in battle now, aren't there (or at least in development)?  I saw a show on Discovery a year or so ago about an RC helicopter cam they were developing for use in urban settings.

Depending on what your definition of "robot" is, they've been using them to defuse mines for some years, and let's face it--cold, hard hunks of steel fitted with wires and chips have been integral pawns on the battlefield for decades.

I don't agree at all that putting robots into battle is tantamount to slavery (even particularly charasmatic ones like Bender).  Call me old-fashioned, but I'm a "humans first" kinda guy, and if a robot can die so that humans don't have to...the more the merrier (even if it is in some ridiculous war started by pencil-pushing fat-cats).

Maybe this is why Bender has such animosity toward humans for the most part, come to think of it.
evan

Urban Legend
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« Reply #5 on: 10-24-2004 23:27 »

Are robots even seen as 'first-class' citizens in the Futurama universe?  There have been a few references to how robots don't have the same rights as humans do, so perhaps they are amount to slaves.  Besides, even robots know they can suffer huge amounts of damage and still be repaired, so they shouldn't feel so bad about going to war.
Nerd-o-rama

Urban Legend
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« Reply #6 on: 10-24-2004 23:30 »

Well, they can vote, and honestly none of them seem more oppressed than working class Americans.  Considering that Earth's President for most of the show, though, is a 20th century Republican, that's still pretty oppressed.
Jicannon

Urban Legend
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« Reply #7 on: 10-24-2004 23:36 »

Remember when Leela killed Bender with a microwave? And when Bender died after getting impaled by a skyscraper?
Yuki_in_space

Bending Unit
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« Reply #8 on: 10-24-2004 23:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by evan:
Besides, even robots know they can suffer huge amounts of damage and still be repaired, so they shouldn't feel so bad about going to war.

Bender seems to experience pain. That in itself seems like enough of a motive to want to avoid battle.
MorboMcFly

Crustacean
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« Reply #9 on: 10-25-2004 06:25 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by evan:
Are robots even seen as 'first-class' citizens in the Futurama universe?  There have been a few references to how robots don't have the same rights as humans do, so perhaps they are amount to slaves.  Besides, even robots know they can suffer huge amounts of damage and still be repaired, so they shouldn't feel so bad about going to war.

There is the Countess that was on the Space Titanic but I'm not sure what was up with here at all... I think they may have even gotten the pupil thing wrong since I think she has round ones... And why someone would build a rich robot anyways.

Ziggy mccpop

Crustacean
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« Reply #10 on: 10-25-2004 08:15 »

is bender the only robot in that army episode
Teral

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« Reply #11 on: 10-25-2004 09:50 »

In the infantry, yes. But we also have iHawk at the MASH unit.
David A

Urban Legend
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« Reply #12 on: 10-26-2004 01:37 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Teral:
Or use electromagnetic fields...

 
Quote
Or magnetic fields.

Same thing.
Benderfan 1230

Bending Unit
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« Reply #13 on: 10-26-2004 15:01 »

It would not matter whether humans or robots fought the wars,each have strenghs and weaknesses. Humans can be killed by being shot or stabbed,etc. and robots can be killed (damaged,whatever) from large magnetic fields. Humans and robots should just fight side by side.
Dannilicious

Bending Unit
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« Reply #14 on: 10-27-2004 10:54 »

Who says Bender can`t get killed? He's a robot, so he's tougher than a human, but it's obvious that he can feel pain, and I don't see why he couldn't die. Just because he didn`t die in WITHW doesn't mean he CAN'T. As someone else mentioned, getting shot caused him to shut down, and robots would be horribly weak to magnetic fields. So I see no reason for robots to fight in a war more than humans.
Hedonism Bot

Bending Unit
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« Reply #15 on: 10-27-2004 12:19 »

If robots were the only soldiers, I imagine that it would be risky, as they may suddenly decide to turn against the human leaders in a coup d'etat. They'd be easilty wiped out with a massive magnet, but then you'd have a huge pile of scrap metal and no more army.

The best solution would be to build a load of robots with enough AI to make tactical decisions, but not enough to think for themselves outside the confines of warfare. Or just not have any wars, but that's too simple.

Maybe there are rules in warfare in the 30th century? Only one robot per platoon, or something like that?
VoVat

Bending Unit
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« Reply #16 on: 10-27-2004 20:14 »

 
Quote
Who says Bender can`t get killed? He's a robot, so he's tougher than a human, but it's obvious that he can feel pain, and I don't see why he couldn't die.

He can, actually.  His Uncle Vladimir dies in "The Howling," and he worries about being remembered after death in "A Pharaoh to Remember."  It might not count as "death" by human standards, but the robots certainly consider it to be death.
winna

Avatar Czar
DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #17 on: 10-27-2004 22:59 »

When he retires he's flipping his on - off switch to off.
Benderboy123

Bending Unit
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« Reply #18 on: 10-27-2004 23:19 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Jicannon:
Remember when Leela killed Bender with a microwave? And when Bender died after getting impaled by a skyscraper?

That was on anthology of interest, it never actually happened.

Rodney Dangerfield, rest in peace. "when I was born, I was so ugly that the doctor slapped my mother instead of me!"
Jicannon

Urban Legend
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« Reply #19 on: 10-27-2004 23:30 »

Yeah but if Leela was just a little impulsive it would have happened...so it's still possible for a robot to be killed by a microwave (or skyscraper, if Bender was a giant).
Benderboy123

Bending Unit
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« Reply #20 on: 10-27-2004 23:47 »

but there will always be a mystery about how or how not Bender dies, why he has 110 percent in all metals,(zinc,iron,etc.) but this is still a running goof throughout the series, and some stupid writers probably forgot about it and put in the script to make us all laugh, which it did. But still, Bender was blown up by a bomb and didn't get blown to pieces, he should of died after seeing lighter things that make him die, and here just a few holes. Also, would'nt his machine things inside plus his brain get destroyed?
Hedonism Bot

Bending Unit
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« Reply #21 on: 10-28-2004 15:00 »

Off-topic, but I imagine the "I'm 40% xxx" to be the same as a human saying, "I've fixed more cars/defused more bombs/hidden more corpses than you've had hot dinners." An exaggeration to make a point, nothing more.

The bomb might not have been particularly powerful; kills people, leaves buildings standing, that sort of thing. The Ball People weren't exactly advanced in warfare.
VoVat

Bending Unit
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« Reply #22 on: 10-28-2004 21:04 »

I've also seen it suggested that the bomb was a dud.  I mean, it WAS Zapp who installed it.
Benderboy123

Bending Unit
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« Reply #23 on: 10-28-2004 23:52 »

You do have a point there VoVat, but who knows, someone like Henry Kissinger could have installed it! I mean, he is smart, is'nt he?
Nerd-o-rama

Urban Legend
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« Reply #24 on: 10-29-2004 02:11 »

Two words: Brannigan Special.
(Ask Leela...)
Prof. Wernstrum

Starship Captain
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« Reply #25 on: 10-29-2004 07:52 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Benderboy123:
You do have a point there VoVat, but who knows, someone like Henry Kissinger could have installed it! I mean, he is smart, is'nt he?

But he doesn't have any arms. Also, he presumably didn't know about it since he had no problem going to the "peace talks" and seemed surprised when the bomb was revealed.
Teral

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« Reply #26 on: 10-30-2004 12:10 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by David A:
 Same thing.

Okay, change "electromagnetic field" to "electromagnetic pulse".

 
Quote
Originally posted by laroquettespine:
There are robots being used in battle now, aren't there (or at least in development)? I saw a show on Discovery a year or so ago about an RC helicopter cam they were developing for use in urban settings.

True, but they are still remote-controlled by a human, and thus not comparable to the robots in Futurama.

 
Quote
Originally posted by laroquettespine:
I don't agree at all that putting robots into battle is tantamount to slavery (even particularly charasmatic ones like Bender). Call me old-fashioned, but I'm a "humans first" kinda guy, and if a robot can die so that humans don't have to...the more the merrier (even if it is in some ridiculous war started by pencil-pushing fat-cats).

If you force a sentient being to do something, from which you'll benefit, against it's will, it's slavery. Forcing it to do something that will most likely kill or cribble it, well, I wouldn't call that mitigating circumstances.
Wooter

Urban Legend
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« Reply #27 on: 10-31-2004 09:01 »

It doesn't matter if it's a human or a robot, as long as it's sencient. I believe there was an episode of the next generation discussing this issue.
Teral

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« Reply #28 on: 10-31-2004 09:54 »
« Last Edit on: 10-31-2004 09:54 »

"The Meassure Of A Man"

One of the best season 2 episodes, only second to "Q Who" and possibly "Elementary, My Dear Data"
Benderboy123

Bending Unit
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« Reply #29 on: 11-03-2004 19:02 »

Why did Bender want a funeral? Robots should die atleast once in there life. So Bender should of died getting blown up like that?
laroquettespine

Bending Unit
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« Reply #30 on: 11-03-2004 21:32 »

 
Quote
If you force a sentient being to do something, from which you'll benefit, against it's will, it's slavery. Forcing it to do something that will most likely kill or cribble it, well, I wouldn't call that mitigating circumstances.

So, making my cat poop in its litter box or outdoors is slavery?  It benefits me, but I'm sure if Spock had his druthers, he'd poop in the house as often and as vengefully as possible.

Humans are sentient, but they are "forced" to do things against their wills every day.  I'd just as soon not have to pay taxes or obey certain traffic laws, but rules have been set in place to deprive me of those pleasures.

Likewise, my nephew would probably rather be at home in Arkansas with his wife instead of spending 18 months in sand-in-your-crack-land risking getting his balls blown off every day.  His right to not be in a war zone is being infringed!!!

The powers that be (our "duly elected leaders" ) lay down the laws supposedly for the benefit of the whole population, even if it costs some of the population some of its liberties.  As much as I have a problem about how this country (and the world) is run, I suppose it's preferable to anarchy (for now).

Ultimately, Teral, this issue would seem to come down to whether a robot IS (or has the capability to become) sentient.  Just as Deep Blue can make strategic decisions based on its learning, robot warriors of the future could well be self-reliant and self-supporting, but...self-aware?  I don't see it happening, no matter how lifelike they look and act.
Marcus
Starship Captain
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« Reply #31 on: 11-03-2004 21:45 »

You don't have to pay taxes. Your nephew has the freedom to refuse to fight. As it happens, you've both entered into contracts ('social contract' or literal legal documents) that allow another agency to punish you if you use your freedom in a certain way.

Part of freedom is taking the consequences for your actions.

As for robots being sentient... I don't see why it couldn't happen. Our minds aren't computers, and we're a long way off developing a computer that can act like a mind, but I don't think it's impossible. Design a robot to be self-reliant, allow it to modify itself (change algorithms through learning) and allow it to make more robots, and in X number of robot 'generations', I think you _could_ have sentience.

Marcus.

(P.S. cats aren't sentient, either  smile )
Benderboy123

Bending Unit
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« Reply #32 on: 11-03-2004 22:01 »

Lets not get off topic guys! Nobody has replied to my...whatever
laroquettespine

Bending Unit
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« Reply #33 on: 11-03-2004 23:39 »

Marcus, I know people can refuse to pay taxes or fight.  That's part of what separates us from machines.  A human's government-ordained requirement to go to war or pay taxes would be tantamount to forced robot labor IF robots were sentient.  But they aren't--they're just man-made machines.

Cats, however, are sentient, because they are conscious of their own existence.

I suppose it depends on your definition of sentient.  If you program a robot to say "I am self-aware", it will say it is.  That doesn't make it so, though (see "A.I." ).

Benderboy123, to answer your question, Bender would want a funeral because he's a fictional character who was written as a self-centered robot.  He would want the funeral for attention, if nothing else ("Remember meee!" ).

As to whether he can die, just look how easily Morgan Proctor took away his entire identity.  He could still move, talk and function, but the "loveable rascal" was gone until Hermes tossed that disc back in.  Without identity (a "soul", if you will), our carcass isn't really "alive" anyway, even if it does move (are zombies "alive"???).
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #34 on: 11-03-2004 23:57 »
« Last Edit on: 11-03-2004 23:57 by totalnerduk »

1. Build a robot that wants to fight. Program it to attack group A and protect group P.

2. Cats are sentient. I have known, without exaggerating, many cats who were smarter than most of the people I have ever met. My mother had a cat which used to hold open the magnetical gadget on the cat flap, so as to allow his friends into the house. Said "friends" and my mother's cat would sit together in the house until she came home. At that point, they would flee through the (usually open) window, onto the lower roof, and then down to street level.

She only found out about this, because on a few occasions, she came home to find that there were several cats anxiously attempting to pile through the cat flap at the same time - when the window was closed. It's a fantastic example of social, intelligent, co-operative behaviour.

In a lower life-form, such as an ant, it's hard-wired. For the domestic cat, it's a learned behaviour - showing clear intelligence and communication between individuals. This strongly implies (although does not prove) that the cat is aware of itself as an individual in the same way that humans, dolphins, elephants, and pigs have been proven to be. Yes, all these animals are sentient.

3. If there was an army composed entirely of robots, there would be no need to fight wars. The robots would be able to determine the winner via simple statistical logic, and either capitulate or demand the capitulation of the other party, accordingly. The cold steel logic of the robot would win.

4. Stick a bunch of cats in a bag. Shake vigourously. The cats will fight.

5. Each nation picks a cat. The UN pop them into a bag. The bag is shaken. The victorious cat is determined the winner. The owner nation wins the war. Millions of lives are saved. Royalties are paid to me for the idea.

Everybody wins.

Don't make war. Just shake a bag of cats.
Teral

Helpy McHelphelp
DOOP Secretary
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« Reply #35 on: 11-04-2004 13:53 »

First of all, I think we have been on slightly different pages. Not entirely, just a smidge. My posts so far have been with the Futurama robots as starting point, while yours seem to be with present day RL robots

 
Quote
Originally posted by laroquettespine:
 So, making my cat poop in its litter box or outdoors is slavery?  It benefits me, but I'm sure if Spock had his druthers, he'd poop in the house as often and as vengefully as possible.

The difference is Spock is not self-aware. Nice name, btw.  smile

 
Quote
Humans are sentient, but they are "forced" to do things against their wills every day.  I'd just as soon not have to pay taxes or obey certain traffic laws, but rules have been set in place to deprive me of those pleasures.

But you're free to leave the country who impose those rules on you. That's why so many people move to tax shelters like Andorra, Monaco or Liechtenstein. You obey these rules society have put down, becuase you chose to. Some because they know the benefits (healthcare, free education, safety, etc) they reep is greater than or equal to the limitations imposed on them, some for idealistic reasons, etc. But it's still a choice. 

 
Quote
Likewise, my nephew would probably rather be at home in Arkansas with his wife instead of spending 18 months in sand-in-your-crack-land risking getting his balls blown off every day.  His right to not be in a war zone is being infringed!!!

Well, I can understand that. I'm sure I would've been much happier if I had spend the summer of '95 on the beach, rather than covering from artillery barages, and then having to search through destroyed bunkers when one of our camps took a couple of direct hits. But it was my own decision to go, noone forced me to join UNPROFOR. Same thing with your nephew, I assume, noone forced him to join the military. He made a decision to join, and knew the consequences, as did I.

I hope your nephew come home unharmed.

 
Quote
The powers that be (our "duly elected leaders" ) lay down the laws supposedly for the benefit of the whole population, even if it costs some of the population some of its liberties.  As much as I have a problem about how this country (and the world) is run, I suppose it's preferable to anarchy (for now).

Ultimately, Teral, this issue would seem to come down to whether a robot IS (or has the capability to become) sentient.  Just as Deep Blue can make strategic decisions based on its learning, robot warriors of the future could well be self-reliant and self-supporting, but...self-aware?  I don't see it happening, no matter how lifelike they look and act.

That's what I meant by being on different pages. I was talking about Futurama-style robots, which are self-aware, while you were talking about RL robotics. Taking someone like Bender (who would mind going to war, for selfish reasons), change his programming and send him over the top with a positron shooter would be wrong.
laroquettespine

Bending Unit
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« Reply #36 on: 11-04-2004 18:34 »

Fair enough.  Thanks for your well-wishes for my nephew.

 
Quote
4. Stick a bunch of cats in a bag. Shake vigourously. The cats will fight.

5. Each nation picks a cat. The UN pop them into a bag. The bag is shaken. The victorious cat is determined the winner. The owner nation wins the war. Millions of lives are saved. Royalties are paid to me for the idea.

Everybody wins.

Don't make war. Just shake a bag of cats.

Totalnerduk, that was the funniest thing I've read in a while.  Thanks.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
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« Reply #37 on: 11-05-2004 00:09 »
« Last Edit on: 11-05-2004 00:09 by totalnerduk »

If it's truly the funniest thing you've read in a while, we have a PEELer's quotes thread somewhere in the offtopic section.
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