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Author Topic: Causality  (Read 655 times)
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Jaswahhihi

Starship Captain
****
« on: 10-17-2004 16:16 »
« Last Edit on: 10-18-2004 00:00 »

In the 'Why of Fry' and 'Space piolt 3000'  terms of time travel "or" causality dont seem too match up.
If the laws were obyed Fry would appear in every time before as well as the time he appeared in Space Piolt 3000. In other words a future fry or infinite amounts of Fry would be going back in time all the time from the Infosphere too under the desk, from the year 3004 too the year 1999. So im saying that there should have been a Fry under the desk in every year 1999 in the pilot. So again in the piolt there should have been a Fry Strangaling Nibbler under the desk. And the Big Brain in the infosphere should have seen a previous Fry knocking himself into the tube.
This may be very complicated too understand because of my obsimal explanation or because you have your own theroys of time and space. And when I use the term 'Laws' thats the best word I could think of for one of the theroys of time travel (and the one i belive the most in).
This theroy in other words means even if you saw a future version of yourself doing something you could not stop yourself from doing it, no matter how hard you tried. Even if he had seen himself strangling Nibbler it probaly would have given him more insentive too go back and find out.

An example of another completly different theroy to before is shown here, it contradicts mine as it is a one stable timeline:


1st theroy:
Author: Jaswahhihi

2nd theroy:
Authour: Richard Waldie
Peel username:kwanzabot

If anyone else has any other theroys please post them.
Probulator

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #1 on: 10-17-2004 20:29 »
« Last Edit on: 10-17-2004 20:29 »

There is a pretty good thread here discussing a lot of the nerdier dynamics of Fry's time travelling. Mostly, I agree with tnuk's ideas, but RedBaron's graphics don't hurt my brain.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #2 on: 10-17-2004 20:40 »

Your theory misses out one key point - If Nibbler hadn't originally pushed Fry into the cryo-tube in SP3K, there wouldn't have been a year 3000 Fry to travel back to 1999.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #3 on: 10-17-2004 21:23 »
« Last Edit on: 10-17-2004 21:23 by totalnerduk »

Y'know, I might try and refine my original theories on time travel with a few diagrams of my own. Stand by, watch this space, etc.

Goddamn, I was being a jackass in that old thread.

Here's my jazzed up version:

Fry is born, as the son of Yancy, who is the son of Fry himself. Fry was never the descendant of Enos. This is because when Fry interfered with Enos, and caused his death... Nothing was actually changed. See, Fry travelled through time, yet he travelled back to a time that had already passed through existence. This meant that he always was his own grandfather.
According to New Scientist magazine (certain) paradoxes have been proved to have occurred (or something).
This explains why the universe collapsed on itself in AOI 1, when Fry destroyed his cryo-tube. Fry would have prevented his own existence through not getting frozen. This seems to be something that Nibbler did not think of when offering Fry a choice.
So the "paradox" is proved to be something that has a place in the universe. This rules out alternate timelines. Therefore there’s only one timeline. See diagram:



Fry travels back in time to 1999 later on, and is offered his choice by Nibbler. The fact that he tells Nibbler about the ScootyPuff Jnr alters time here, causing another apparent paradox that is in fact perfectly logical.
Fry never gets sent back in time to tell Nibbler due to the fact that the timeline is altered, yet the memory of his doing so is preserved. This also explains the nexus’ existence in the first place. Fry was meant to go back in time in order to preserve the structure of the timeline, therefore there was a hole through which he could travel.
This is due to Time not being a straight line, but bendable. The few seconds in 1999 form a long loop in time. The rest of time forms a smaller loop. So we have a figure eight on a straight line.
Fry enters the loop and is snatched from it at the other end, cutting out the large loop and closing it off. The smaller loop therefore straightens out (the reason it does not show up below in the diagram) and Time and the Universe absorb Fry's meddling with Causality. See diagram:



Note that the smaller loop does not show up in the diagram. This is because we’re looking at the whole timeline, not viewing an animation, which is because I’m too lazy to animate a timeline right now.
Also note that no such self-healing loop is constructed for the 1947 incident due to nothing actually changing.
Time does actually "bend" in this manner.

Further notes:
The universe we see in Futurama is the single Stable Reality which connects all other Unstable Realities... it is their one common point. An Unstable Reality would in this case be a synonym for "possibility", meaning that the universe is constantly creating the "time loops" to close off events that I referred to, making them stable, and ensuring the continued existence of Existence.

Fact: Time is not a constant. There is only one constant, and that is infinity. Infinity can never be altered, it just is. Time is especially not a constant in Futurama, due to the changes that happened in the "closed loop" which was "cut off" by the self-healing process of existence. This proves that time can indeed be messed with to some extent. (See my earlier posts).
Fact: Parallel universes would merely exist in potentia until occupied by the knotted and twisted path of Time
The universe will not accept changes being made to events in the past, as they disrupt the past. That could never happen. Anything you do in the past to try and change the future will simply contribute towards the future that you are trying to alter.
Therefore anything you do in the past, you were meant to do. A time traveller from PEEL waving his arms around on Stonehenge, and farting heavenwards would not disrupt our weather patterns. The movement of the air molecules would become our weather patterns.
Therefore anything you do which fits the pattern of the whole will be absorbed smoothly into the past. Anything else will be at violent discord with the universe, and will not affect the past - rather it will have always been a part of the past. The chaos theory here comes into its own.
Suppose you saw the first butterfly whilst farting on Stonehenge. You want to end all existence, remember? So you swat at it. Chaos demands that it is possible for the universe to recover it's pattern over time even if this were not meant to be a part of the past. The butterfly would, instead of flapping it's wings and causing a hurricane forty thousand years hence, die. The hurricane might then be caused by your farts
Time is the one thing that can't be a constant to allow existence. Static time would be a bit of a blockage to life.

RavenStar

Professor
*
« Reply #4 on: 10-17-2004 21:43 »

Y'know, that visual aid would not pass in my WR 227 class...might wanna spruce it up in photoshop or sumthin'...interesting, however - though you might wanna run the lil' spellchecker before you post again, Jawahas-Jahasw-Jawa man.

Nerd-o-rama

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #5 on: 10-17-2004 21:46 »
« Last Edit on: 10-17-2004 21:46 »

ADAMS'S LAWS GENERAL RULES OF CAUSALITY
Excerpted from Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams.

1) Anything that happens, happens.
2) Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen.
3) Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.
4) It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.

3.5) Nerd-o-rama's corollary to Adams's General Rules:
     Anything that, in happening, prevents itself from happening, does not happen.

I'll expand on this later...
...On second thought, TNUK just gave the physics explanation for this, and I once again agree with his theory.  Especially since its presented more politely here than originally.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #6 on: 10-17-2004 22:15 »

Probulator's link doesn't work... if anybody wants to see the original, use THIS. Oh, and my post has been edited to show my new diagrams. Yay!
Whoopwhoopwhoop

Professor
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« Reply #7 on: 10-17-2004 23:06 »

In the words of a great English teacher I once had (the one that looks like FemJesse) you just have to take the story for what it's worth...  Dont worry if its possilbe, because it just happens in the story, wether you like it or not...
Nerd-o-rama

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #8 on: 10-17-2004 23:45 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Whoopwhoopwhoop:
In the words of a great English teacher I once had (the one that looks like FemJesse)...

You had an English teacher who looked like FJ?  As much as I usually like to keep my horny internet-lust confined to the Offtopic boards, you are one lucky bastard.
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #9 on: 10-18-2004 04:55 »
« Last Edit on: 10-18-2004 04:55 »

@Total - that is a really great theory, but it does have one flaw.  You say that Fry was meant to travel back in time "in order to protect the structure of the timeline".  However the timeline wouldn't have been in jepoardy in the first place if Fry hadn't been sent back to 1999.  If Fry doesn't travel back, Nibbler pushes 1999-Fry into the tube.  If Fry DOES travel back, he prevents Nibbler from pushing 1999-Fry into the tube, setting in motion events leading to him pushing himself into the tube.  At this point the loop is closed off, restoring the original timeline, so that once again it's Nibbler pushing 1999-Fry.

So if the Nexus isn't there for Fry to protect the timeline, then what's it for?  My thoery is that is exists in order for Fry to ALTER the timeline by warning Nibbler about the Scooty Puff Jr., enabling Fry to escape the Sphere in the revised timeline.  With the show's cancellation, exactly why such a nexus would exist will remain a mystery, although possibly it's tied up with the questions "why is Leela 'the Other?'" and "In 'Jurassic Bark' why is Nibbler/another Nibblonian in the trash can?".  Both those moments suggest that there was more to come on the subject.
Jaswahhihi

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #10 on: 10-18-2004 08:46 »
« Last Edit on: 10-18-2004 08:46 »

   
Quote
Originally posted by PCC Fred:
Your theory misses out one key point - If Nibbler hadn't originally pushed Fry into the cryo-tube in SP3K, there wouldn't have been a year 3000 Fry to travel back to 1999.

No im saying that another Fry would have pushed him into the tube from the equivalent year 3004. So the Future Fry would also be pusing him in. Think of an infinite amount of timelines where Fry is going back from Why of Fry too SP3K infinite amounts of times, one of these infinite times is the time when the show is set, this also means that every infinte 'Fry' will always do the same thing, in other words he will do exacatally what all the other infinite frys do. its a bit like Bill and Ted really.

Oh and Ravenstar thats not my work unfortuanelty so i cant change it, it was done in about 2 mins aswell.    smile
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #11 on: 10-18-2004 17:59 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Jaswahhihi:
So im saying that there should have been a Fry under the desk in every year 1999 in the pilot. So again in the piolt there should have been a Fry Strangaling Nibbler under the desk. And the Big Brain in the infosphere should have seen a previous Fry knocking himself into the tube.

This is another flaw in your theory.  It assumes that the events that take place on the show are in some way wrong, rather than try to explain them.  Any theory of Fry's time travel has to be able to explain what we see on screen.
Jaswahhihi

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #12 on: 10-19-2004 11:17 »

Ahh i see what you mean, no I was just trying too say what happened if the show abided too my theroy.  smile
Whoopwhoopwhoop

Professor
*
« Reply #13 on: 10-19-2004 22:46 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nerd-o-rama:
 You had an English teacher who looked like FJ?  As much as I usually like to keep my horny internet-lust confined to the Offtopic boards, you are one lucky bastard.

Yea...  I <3 you FJ...
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #14 on: 10-20-2004 20:49 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Jaswahhihi:
Ahh i see what you mean, no I was just trying too say what happened if the show abided too my theroy.   smile

No probs.  I like circular causality theories, like the Sinclair/Valen storyline in B5, and the idea that Fry freezing himself is pre-destined is very interesting.

But in the world of sci-fi geekdom and nitpicking you get bonus points when your thoeries fit established facts on the show.  smile
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #15 on: 10-21-2004 00:22 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by PCC Fred:
@Total - that is a really great theory, but it does have one flaw.  You say that Fry was meant to travel back in time "in order to protect the structure of the timeline".  However the timeline wouldn't have been in jepoardy in the first place if Fry hadn't been sent back to 1999.  If Fry doesn't travel back, Nibbler pushes 1999-Fry into the tube.  If Fry DOES travel back, he prevents Nibbler from pushing 1999-Fry into the tube, setting in motion events leading to him pushing himself into the tube.  At this point the loop is closed off, restoring the original timeline, so that once again it's Nibbler pushing 1999-Fry.

So if the Nexus isn't there for Fry to protect the timeline, then what's it for?  My thoery is that is exists in order for Fry to ALTER the timeline by warning Nibbler about the Scooty Puff Jr., enabling Fry to escape the Sphere in the revised timeline.  With the show's cancellation, exactly why such a nexus would exist will remain a mystery, although possibly it's tied up with the questions "why is Leela 'the Other?'" and "In 'Jurassic Bark' why is Nibbler/another Nibblonian in the trash can?".  Both those moments suggest that there was more to come on the subject.

If there's no threat to the timeline, then why is there a nexus? My guess is that the timeline is already established, by events further on in the future. Remeber that Nibller asserts Fry will be called upon again? I'm guessing that this is something he's needed/destined for.

Therefore, he's needed to pretect the integrity of the timeline, once he's sucked out of it. The nexus exists because he's supposed to use it to jump out of the hole in space-time, and change time (in order to protect it).

See, I may not have made it totally clear, but I did consider this right at the start. It's that comment of Nibbler's which made me realise that the universe/timeline is helping itself out of a mess each time, by taking the most convenient possible path (hence the disappearance of the smaller loop, as the timeline irons itself out).

Thanks for helping me clarify that, Fred. I see how it might have appeared to be a flaw. Trust me, I'd already considered that (in fact, I had to consult my original notes to prepare this post). Yes, I do keep notes on my more complex PEEL posts. Sue me, I dare you.
Evil Mirror Kif

Crustacean
*
« Reply #16 on: 10-21-2004 16:47 »

That theory makes sense, Jas, If your vastly misinformed.
Since the Big brain ened up sending fry back it changed the timeline to another reality. You see anyone traveling back in time to prevent something from occuring they would at some point disappear from the time stream along with any record of there existance in said time stream. so what the big brain showed Fry was the past of that time line and not the one that he created. The pilot was also part of that original time line thus you don't see fry and nibbler was hidden under the table. So there!
Nerd-o-rama

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #17 on: 10-21-2004 17:47 »
« Last Edit on: 10-21-2004 17:47 »

Welcome to PEEL, Evil Mirror Kif.

Jaswahhihi, Totalnerduk, and I, as well as several others, like to think of the Futuramaverse as one single stable timeline.  Any alterations made were already there in the first place.  This theory is used in a few other works of fiction, my personal favorites being The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and the third Harry Potter book.

Also see TNUK's posts and diagrams, he's got a decent handle on the quantum end of it.
hobojobo

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #18 on: 10-21-2004 20:45 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Jaswahihi:
even if you saw a future version of yourself doing something you could not stop yourself from doing it, no matter how hard you tried.

I think that the most valid contradiction to this is the theaory that I believe in most, which is that normally, you will always do what you are going to do. However, if you were to see yourself in the future, that knowledge would change the future, and you would be able to do whatever you wanted based on witrnessing that. Sorry if this is a little unclear, I'm very tired and my brain isn't working right. Maybe someone else can explain it better.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #19 on: 10-21-2004 23:03 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by hobojobo:
 I think that the most valid contradiction to this is the theaory that I believe in most, which is that normally, you will always do what you are going to do. However, if you were to see yourself in the future, that knowledge would change the future, and you would be able to do whatever you wanted based on witrnessing that. Sorry if this is a little unclear, I'm very tired and my brain isn't working right. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

In doing what you were going to do, you do, or cause yourself to do at a later date, the thing that you saw yourself do, but didn't want to do. See NOR's post earlier on. He covers this nicely with some of the best scientific advice to come out of Ursa Minor Beta.
Jaswahhihi

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #20 on: 10-22-2004 05:41 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Evil Mirror Kif:
That theory makes sense, Jas, If your vastly misinformed.
Since the Big brain ened up sending fry back it changed the timeline to another reality. You see anyone traveling back in time to prevent something from occuring they would at some point disappear from the time stream along with any record of there existance in said time stream. so what the big brain showed Fry was the past of that time line and not the one that he created. The pilot was also part of that original time line thus you don't see fry and nibbler was hidden under the table. So there!

Yeh I know what you mean, but remember the first theroy is not meant too link up with the show while the second theoy is.

  smile  Welcome too Peel by the way!
zomit

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #21 on: 10-22-2004 10:26 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by totalnerduk:
Fry would have prevented his own existence through not getting frozen. This seems to be something that Nibbler did not think of when offering Fry a choice.

Or maybe, Nibbler knew that Fry would have chosen to freeze himself because if he hadn't, then he couldn't have possibly travelled back in time to stop it, and if he hadn't travelled back in time to stop himself from getting frozen, then he'd have been frozen, so either way, he'd get frozen.
Nerd-o-rama

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #22 on: 10-22-2004 18:28 »
« Last Edit on: 10-22-2004 18:28 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by zomit:
 Or maybe, Nibbler knew that Fry would have chosen to freeze himself because if he hadn't, then he couldn't have possibly travelled back in time to stop it, and if he hadn't travelled back in time to stop himself from getting frozen, then he'd have been frozen, so either way, he'd get frozen.

Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecies...
PCC Fred

Space Pope
****
« Reply #23 on: 10-22-2004 19:10 »

If Fry refused to freeze himself in "The Why of Fry", he'd create a timeline where he doesn't exist, a self-fulfilling timeline that would override the current timeline, and become the dominant one.

Consider the "real" timeline.  Fry is frozen by his future self in 1999, and he wakes up in 3000.  In "Roswell that Ends Well" he travels back to 1947 and becomes his own grandfather.  Then in "The Why of Fry" he foils the Brains' plan to destroy the unvierse, before travelling back to 1999, where he freezes himself, completing the circle.

But what happens if Fry refuses to freeze himself?  This means he won't exist in the 31st century.  "Ah", I hear you say.  "But if Fry doesn't exist in the 31st century, then he can't travel back to 1999 and prevent Nibbler freezing him."

This is incorrect.  If Fry doesn't get frozen, it'll create a totally new timline from 1947 onwards, including a 1999 where Fry DEFINITELY doesn't get frozen, thus ensuring the new timeline becomes permanent.

If Fry isn't frozen, then he won't wake up in the 31st century.  Which means he can't travel to 1947 and become his own grandfather.  Therefore Fry will NEVER have existed.

Flash forward to 1999.  A different 1999 to the one seen in "SP3K" and "The Why of Fry", where there's no Fry to freeze.  Fry won't wake up in the 31st century.  He won't travel to 1947 and become his own grandfather.  Therefore Fry will never have existed, and the new timeline will start all over again, with no way to restore the original as Fry has been permenantly wiped from existance.

Oh yes.  And the universe would be destroyed in 3003/3004.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #24 on: 10-23-2004 17:09 »

I couldn't agree more, Fred. This is quite probably the reason that the What If machine showed the results that it did for the question that Fry asked: What if I never fell in the freezer-doodle, and never came to the future-thingy?
Wooter

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #25 on: 10-31-2004 20:18 »

That makes perfect sense!
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