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Author Topic: Thoughts on 6ACV17 - Benderama - SPOILERS  (Read 17780 times)
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PEE Poll: Rating
1/10 (poor)   -0 (0%)
2/10   -1 (0.9%)
3/10   -0 (0%)
4/10   -4 (3.7%)
5/10   -7 (6.5%)
6/10   -10 (9.3%)
7/10   -23 (21.3%)
8/10   -33 (30.6%)
9/10   -22 (20.4%)
10/10 (great)   -8 (7.4%)
Total Voters: 108

Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #120 on: 06-26-2011 13:24 »

I'm re-watching Benderama now, and I just remembered that we were treated to a 'full' intro this time, including 1930's style cartoon on the Big Screen. big grin

Yeah, I don't know if I ever mentioned that here, but that felt really nice. Seeing as Neutopia had the cut version, I think this broadcast season will mostly have cut openings too though.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #121 on: 06-26-2011 17:44 »

I never meant to sound like I was implying that Danny was wrong in calling Benderama sucky and Neutopia great. It was all a misunderstanding on my part - with "see" put before the sentence I thought he meant something like "in conclusion to the discussion I have witnessed, it seems like people prefer Neutopia over Benderama". Now afterwards, I understand that he meant that he was wrong and that he was surprised that they had switched places, and that's his opinion which I have nothing against.

Didn't mean to put you on the defensive there, Aki. I was mostly just being picky about semantics. All this damn arguing was making me equally testy, so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was chiding you without my tongue planted firmly in my cheek. A general rule of thumb is that you should not take anything I say on PEEL seriously. wink

i've asked three casual fans of mine which episode they preferred. no word of lie, they all enjoyed 'neutopia' more-so than 'benderama'.

Speaking as someone who enjoyed both episodes, I do think that "Neutopia" would probably appeal more to the casual fans of the show because it's this sort of mindless, disgustingly amusing episode. Any issues "Neutopia" has in tone or characterization (which seem to have bugged some of the posters here) are likely to slide under the casual viewers' critical radar. Or something.
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #122 on: 06-26-2011 17:48 »

Didn't mean to put you on the defensive there, Aki. I was mostly just being picky about semantics. All this damn arguing was making me equally testy, so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was chiding you without my tongue planted firmly in my cheek. A general rule of thumb is that you should not take anything I say on PEEL seriously. wink

Don't worry, I just wanted to make sure no-one took offense. smile

Speaking as someone who enjoyed both episodes, I do think that "Neutopia" would probably appeal more to the casual fans of the show because it's this sort of mindless, disgustingly amusing episode. Any issues "Neutopia" has in tone or characterization (which seem to have bugged some of the posters here) are likely to slide under the casual viewers' critical radar. Or something.

I agree. Also, Benderama had some more sci-fi-y stuff as well as the science behind how the duplicates worked. Not much, but probably enough to through off someone who's not interested in sci-fi or science. I have several friends who like the show's more down-to-Earth episodes, but not the sci-fi ones.
flesheatingbull

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #123 on: 06-26-2011 18:13 »

i've asked three casual fans of mine which episode they preferred.

You have fans? And even if you did, why ask them their opinions on episodes of Futurama?

[/smartass]

lol
Freudian slip, perhaps?
flesheatingbull

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #124 on: 06-26-2011 18:14 »

I never meant to sound like I was implying that Danny was wrong in calling Benderama sucky and Neutopia great. It was all a misunderstanding on my part - with "see" put before the sentence I thought he meant something like "in conclusion to the discussion I have witnessed, it seems like people prefer Neutopia over Benderama". Now afterwards, I understand that he meant that he was wrong and that he was surprised that they had switched places, and that's his opinion which I have nothing against.

Didn't mean to put you on the defensive there, Aki. I was mostly just being picky about semantics. All this damn arguing was making me equally testy, so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was chiding you without my tongue planted firmly in my cheek. A general rule of thumb is that you should not take anything I say on PEEL seriously. wink

i've asked three casual fans of mine which episode they preferred. no word of lie, they all enjoyed 'neutopia' more-so than 'benderama'.

Speaking as someone who enjoyed both episodes, I do think that "Neutopia" would probably appeal more to the casual fans of the show because it's this sort of mindless, disgustingly amusing episode. Any issues "Neutopia" has in tone or characterization (which seem to have bugged some of the posters here) are likely to slide under the casual viewers' critical radar. Or something.

nice reference. or something.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #125 on: 06-27-2011 02:15 »

This one really dealt with a great sci-fi concept. But it managed to fail a little. However, overall it's a decent attempt. Firstly let me just say that I'm not an enormous fan of heavily Bender-centric episodes, nor am I a fan of Bender's characterisation during this one. Sure, it's fitting. But I felt that it was maybe a tad overdone.

Secondly, I was absolutely splitting my sides with laughter at Zapp again. Two in a row where he's used to perfection. I'm thinking that maybe this season is one of the best, despite having four episodes in the previous half that could've been done a hell of a lot better, or even dispensed with altogether.

The Scary Door segment, as always was brilliant. They could release an episode comprised entirely of 2-minute Scary Door segments, and I'd be a very happy bunny. I'd be even happier if they were truly random though, instead of this one actually holding relevance to the main plotline. Still, I can't have everything I want.

There were so many jokes, if I catalogue the funniest, I'll run out of space. Not many of them fell flat, but the drunk sequences could've been shorter for me.

Lots of nerd bonuses in this one too. But it really didn't feel quite as good as Neutopia. I didn't like that the duplicates died so easily and that Bender didn't feel sad about exterminating them... I also didn't like that there were no other robots seen to suffer from an alcohol shortage, or enjoy all the alcohol that the duplicates made. Further, I want to know WTF happened to the ecosytems of Earth. Alcohol replacing freshwater would be disasterous for many reasons, but the simplest would be that a lake transformed from H2O to ethanol would kill anything living in it. Let's not go into the numerous fires and explosions, the toxic fumes, and the fact that the molecules would take more energy to convert than the duplicates could gain from consuming and breaking them down. Also, the duplicates must've been made of atoms way smaller than normal. This confuses and irritates me. It can't be made to make sense.

I really don't like Futurama delving too deeply into the "bullshit" file for major plotlines, and I feel they delved too long and too deep, and awakened something terrible.

The wholesale destruction left by the departing mini-benders was also a minor irritant, as is the question of what happened to the duplicator. Is it still in there? Can Bender make more self-replicants? Overall, it's vexing. So, 6/10 for this one. Still a good episode, but there are things that annoy me. Grr. Anybody who preferred this to Neutopia obviously loves Bender a hell of a lot more than I do, 'cause there were just too many problems with this episode for me to score it that highly.
AdrenalinDragon

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #126 on: 06-27-2011 02:18 »

Good episode. The Bender plot was very entertaining on the premise of being lazy to create more to do the job, and didn't feel too overstretched. The ugly monster was a good character and the jokes made at him were funny but I kind of felt sorry for him oddily enough when he was killed off. The best part for me was when everyone was drunk, with Linda and Morbo, and Zapp Brannigan coming out with the funniest parts. I didn't get the IMAX joke and thought The Kardashians didn't work too well and felt out of place for Futurama. Nevertheless, I enjoyed watching the many Benders and their mischiefs, with my favourite going in the Professor's soup and Scruffy going "He appears to be giving you the finger, sir". A solid 8.5 out of 10.
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #127 on: 06-27-2011 02:19 »

Hell, tnuk, you just pointed out a bunch of things I didn't even consider before. frown
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #128 on: 06-27-2011 03:14 »

Firstly let me just say that I'm not an enormous fan of heavily Bender-centric episodes, nor am I a fan of Bender's characterisation during this one. Sure, it's fitting. But I felt that it was maybe a tad overdone.

That's kind of what I meant when I said that the little Benders were underutilized, what with their one-note, exaggerated characterizations ("We don't like to work, we like to drink. Also, get bent").

Hell, I don't even find the concept of a gazillion Benders all that amusing in the first place (and, like you, Bender-centric episodes do little to thrill me. He may be the show's breakout character or whatever, but part of what has me a little underwhelmed for this coming week's episode ("Ghost in the Machines") is that it is once again being billed as an All Bender, All the Time thing. Give me a good Fry or Leela story--or an episode that utilizes the core trio--over a solely Bender-centric story any day).

In fact, mostly what I find so funny about this episode is how the rest of the PE crew reacts to the trouble Bender causes; my least favorite part of the episode may in fact be Bender's shtick.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #129 on: 06-27-2011 03:31 »

In fact, mostly what I find so funny about this episode is how the rest of the PE crew reacts to the trouble Bender causes; my least favorite part of the episode may in fact be Bender's shtick.

I like that we agree on this. Let us form a society of people who agree on things. We'll do things like watch Futurama, and brutally murder those who do not agree with us.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #130 on: 06-27-2011 03:35 »

I'll deafen people with my annoying air horn, and you can shoot them.

Real people and their avatars are the same thing, right?
Fnord
Starship Captain
****
« Reply #131 on: 06-27-2011 07:36 »

But, Christ, guys, we're never going to convince one another that an episode is gold or crap, so arguing about it endlessly is just a waste of time.

If the whole world realized that was true in general, the Internet would turn into a ghost town overnight ...
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #132 on: 06-27-2011 09:25 »

In fact, mostly what I find so funny about this episode is how the rest of the PE crew reacts to the trouble Bender causes; my least favorite part of the episode may in fact be Bender's shtick.

I like that we agree on this. Let us form a society of people who agree on things. We'll do things like watch Futurama, and brutally murder those who do not agree with us.

I have to concur with this notion, Bondie and Clyde.  Bender to me is both an overhyped and overrated character.  I am not saying that he is bad, but the general fan community's approval of Bender might be getting a bit to the heads of the writers as well.

I don't mind Bender being self-centred or selfish.  That's his character, but neither is that exactly what is funny about him.  His most humorous attribute is the fact that he often fails to understand human behaviour.  In this episode it just seemed like he didn't care.  The latter is far less interesting and funny.  In many previous episodes, Bender has at least tried to care about his approval among the humans, but always failed in some way because he didn't understood why they liked him.

I wonder if the writers have forgotten this is what makes Bender 'great'.  So to speak.  Of the PE crew, Zoidberg is by far my most favourite character; because he is always used to the fullest of his potential.  Some argue that he is underused, but I find that he is appropriately used.  And even then, I actually like "That's Lobstertainment!".  In my eyes it is a well written episode.  And its usage of Zoidberg and Bender is perfect.  Zoidberg - being desperate for his dreams - lies to his uncle (whom in turn lies to him), Bender - feeling a sense of compassion - tries to help, but doing the same thing that got the two lobsters into the mess.

You may think that "That's Lobstertainment!" is too easily resolved or has an underuse of Leela and Fry.  But that does not bother me at all; an episode should not be about how it ends, but how we got there.  And Leela and Fry has plenty of moments to shine.

So in truth; the real reason I preferred this episode over "Neutopia" was not because of Bender, but because of the rest of the cast.  That to me was so hilarious it vastly outweighs the drawbacks of the Bender-centric story.
TheMadCapper

Fluffy
UberMod
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #133 on: 06-27-2011 10:14 »

Bender is a weak character. He is a stereotype. A caricature. Some of the show's worst episodes are all about Bender. A Pharaoh to Remember springs to mind.

With that out of the way, I will say that this episode was pretty good. Scientific accuracy obviously had to take a backseat, as the entire earth would have died if all water really did turn into alcohol. But it was funny to see all the characters drunk, so I'll give them a pass on that one. The treatment of the ugly monster seemed forced, to me. Everyone just turns into an ass when they encounter him.

The episode is flawed, but hey. It brought the funny, and in the end that's all that matters to me. Professor blasting a hole in Bender with an old-school revolver made me laugh, and hard.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #134 on: 06-27-2011 12:13 »

But, Christ, guys, we're never going to convince one another that an episode is gold or crap, so arguing about it endlessly is just a waste of time.

If the whole world realized that was true in general, the Internet would turn into a ghost town overnight ...

True, but there's a difference between a vitriolic shouting match and a civilized debate. The former is more fun, perhaps, but the latter is what allows for an exchange of ideas with the potential of maybe, possibly, just a teensy-weensy bit changing someone's mind a little.

Bender is a weak character. He is a stereotype. A caricature. Some of the show's worst episodes are all about Bender. A Pharaoh to Remember springs to mind.

Agreed. And this is why some of my favorite episodes featuring Bender ("The Birdbot of Ice-Catraz," "Godfelllas," and maybe even "Bend Her") are ones where he's either playing against type or has a storyline that showcases how, well, humane a character he can actually be.
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #135 on: 06-27-2011 12:29 »

Bender is a weak character. He is a stereotype. A caricature. Some of the show's worst episodes are all about Bender. A Pharaoh to Remember springs to mind.

I totally disagree. Bender is a strong character, a good character (though I do agree with Svip and others that he is overrated), when he is in character. I really liked Svip's description, and that is the true Bender. Being lazy and not caring is just side characteristics. When mixed properly, he is a very good character.
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #136 on: 06-27-2011 12:32 »

And Bondie (Gorky) didn't respond to my long post.  Even in these formal shorts, I feel like a failure.
TheMadCapper

Fluffy
UberMod
DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #137 on: 06-27-2011 14:59 »

Aki - we're coming at this from different angles. One perception of Bender is that he is the secretly sympathetic character who struggles with coming to grips with his (sort of) humanity. So when we have a Godfellas caliber episode, that's the real Bender shining through.

My approach is that Bender is a jerk for the most part, so the self-obsessed douchebot that dominates Pharaoh to Remember is the real Bender. The whiny, unsympathetic, unlikeable Bender.

And you know what? Both approaches are correct. It's all in how they write him. But if Bender was the main character, I don't think I'd be watching it anymore.
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #138 on: 06-27-2011 15:44 »

Aki - we're coming at this from different angles. One perception of Bender is that he is the secretly sympathetic character who struggles with coming to grips with his (sort of) humanity. So when we have a Godfellas caliber episode, that's the real Bender shining through.

My approach is that Bender is a jerk for the most part, so the self-obsessed douchebot that dominates Pharaoh to Remember is the real Bender. The whiny, unsympathetic, unlikeable Bender.

And you know what? Both approaches are correct. It's all in how they write him. But if Bender was the main character, I don't think I'd be watching it anymore.

They are two different parts of his characteristics, it's not like there is one "true" characteristic and the other part is something he throws on. Both are parts, and they shine through in different episodes.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #139 on: 06-27-2011 16:08 »

Unfortunately, the writers seem to enjoy penning Douchebot Bender more than the robot with a heart that's almost as much flesh and blood as it is titanium.
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #140 on: 06-27-2011 16:11 »

Yeah. I hope to see more of the Bender from Godfellas, BwaBB and Jurassic Bark in the upcoming Ghost in the Machines.
hobbitboy

Sir Rank-a-Lot
Urban Legend
***
« Reply #141 on: 06-27-2011 16:34 »

My only complaint about this episode… well, one of my complaints about this… Amongst my complaints about… I'll come in again.

The big ugly guy wasn't remotely ugly enough!
 mad

Don't hate me, Trinity.  I'm just the messenger.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #142 on: 06-27-2011 17:01 »

My only complaint about this episode… well, one of my complaints about this… Amongst my complaints about… I'll come in again.

The big ugly guy wasn't remotely ugly enough!
 mad

Yeah, some of the Mutants are worse than him. hmpf
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #143 on: 06-27-2011 18:55 »

And Bondie (Gorky) didn't respond to my long post.  Even in these formal shorts, I feel like a failure.

Too busy robbing banks and such, my Danish friend.

Seriously, though: I agree with your thoughts on Bender (though I haven't watched "That's Lobstertainment!" in a looong time, so I can't really comment on the characterizations in that episode), and I am a bit worried that the writers are going to overuse him as the series progresses. My favorite episodes have always been the ones that either utilize the entire crew ("The Farnsworth Parabox" or "The Prisoner of Benda" or even "300 Big Boys"), the main three characters ("I Second That Emotion" is a good example, as is the subplot in "The Route of All Evil"), or that explore the relationship between two characters (all the Fry/Leela shippy stuff, of course, but also episodes like "The Duh-Vinci Code" and "Lethal Inspection"). I think Bender works best when he's caught up in antics that affect the plot (which is what happens in, say, "A Head in the Polls"), but do not overtake or become the plot.

I don't know if that makes any sense. You'll forgive me for being drunk off my tap water.
Otis P Jivefunk

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #144 on: 06-27-2011 19:59 »

Unfortunately, the writers seem to enjoy penning Douchebot Bender more than the robot with a heart that's almost as much flesh and blood as it is titanium.

Me thinks Douchebot Bender and Jerkass Homer would make a great team! I smell a spin-off, and I think I know just the man to executive produce the whole project! None other than Mike Scully! That's if he hasn't secretly crept into the writers room for Futurama already shifty...
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #145 on: 06-27-2011 20:32 »

Mike Scully!

His name reminds me of Mike and Sully from Monster's, Inc. big grin
flesheatingbull

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #146 on: 06-27-2011 20:35 »

Mike Scully!

His name reminds me of Mike and Sully from Monster's, Inc. big grin

Interesting Stuff!
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #147 on: 06-27-2011 20:37 »

And Bondie (Gorky) didn't respond to my long post.  Even in these formal shorts, I feel like a failure.

Too busy robbing banks and such, my Danish friend.

Seriously, though: I agree with your thoughts on Bender (though I haven't watched "That's Lobstertainment!" in a looong time, so I can't really comment on the characterizations in that episode), and I am a bit worried that the writers are going to overuse him as the series progresses. My favorite episodes have always been the ones that either utilize the entire crew ("The Farnsworth Parabox" or "The Prisoner of Benda" or even "300 Big Boys"), the main three characters ("I Second That Emotion" is a good example, as is the subplot in "The Route of All Evil"), or that explore the relationship between two characters (all the Fry/Leela shippy stuff, of course, but also episodes like "The Duh-Vinci Code" and "Lethal Inspection"). I think Bender works best when he's caught up in antics that affect the plot (which is what happens in, say, "A Head in the Polls"), but do not overtake or become the plot.

I don't know if that makes any sense. You'll forgive me for being drunk off my tap water.

I recommend you rewatch "That's Lobstertainment!" again.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #148 on: 06-27-2011 20:37 »

I recommend you rewatch "That's Lobstertainment!" again.

I'm going to allow this.

AKA, do it.
lilkitten29

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #149 on: 06-27-2011 21:47 »

So I finally got around to watching Benderama. I really enjoyed this episode. I liked it a lot more than Neutopia.
I loved the Scary Door segment and the overall episode just felt like good ol' Futurama to me.
I give it:

8/10
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #150 on: 06-28-2011 17:26 »

Does anyone think that Scruffy may be becoming more of a regular character now? He appeared in both Neutopia and Benderama (I know they were aired out of order, but still), and the Professor knew his name in Benderama. ('Scruffy, what is that tiny Bender doing in my soup?')

Okay, maybe him becoming a regular character is a silly idea, but it seems that they may have dropped the 'Who's he?' 'I'm Scruffy, the Janitor.' joke.
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #151 on: 06-28-2011 17:29 »

It is true that the writers have been utilizing Scruffy a lot more (most significantly in "The Prisoner of Benda"), but I don't think he'll ever be more than a tertiary character. I don't imagine he'd ever be on-par with the other lead and supporting characters--that is, I don't think we'll ever get an episode like "Why Must I Be a Crustacean in Love?" or "How Hermes Requisitioned His Groove Back" or "Kif Gets Knocked Up a Notch" that focuses on Scruffy. That would kind of defeat the purpose of his character, I think.
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #152 on: 06-28-2011 17:32 »
« Last Edit on: 06-28-2011 17:42 »

I'm fairly certain Scruffy will have a bigger role in season 6 than ever before. Just look at his appearances on the Infosphere:

* Season 6: 8 (so far)
* Season 4: 5
* Season 3: 9
* Season 2: 2
* Season 1: 2

Sure, season 6 is the biggest of the seasons (with 23 episodes) but it's still a lot. And his roles in tPoB and Benderama have both been relatively big compared to previous appearances. The writers apparently love Scruffy, as has been evident by the commentaries as well.

That said, I don't think he will ever be a "regular" character. While I like all his appearances so far, he is still a one-joke character. He should be in the background. While he is more in the background now than ever before, I think the writers realize that they shouldn't have him have much bigger roles than in tPoB.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #153 on: 06-28-2011 17:33 »

* Season 2: 2
* Season 2: 2

He was in BOTH Season 2's twice? The lucky Janitor...
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #154 on: 06-28-2011 17:36 »

He was in BOTH Season 2's twice? The lucky Janitor...

He first appeared as Scruffy (and working at PE) in "Anthology of Interest I" though, which was his second appearance in season 2.
DannyJC13

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #155 on: 06-28-2011 17:37 »

He was in BOTH Season 2's twice? The lucky Janitor...

He first appeared as Scruffy (and working at PE) in "Anthology of Interest I" though, which was his second appearance in season 2.

No, you put Season 2 twice... roll eyes
Aki

Professor
*
« Reply #156 on: 06-28-2011 17:42 »

Oops. Thanks.
Dorsal Axe

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #157 on: 06-29-2011 01:31 »

Does anyone think that Scruffy may be becoming more of a regular character now? He appeared in both Neutopia and Benderama (I know they were aired out of order, but still), and the Professor knew his name in Benderama. ('Scruffy, what is that tiny Bender doing in my soup?')

Okay, maybe him becoming a regular character is a silly idea, but it seems that they may have dropped the 'Who's he?' 'I'm Scruffy, the Janitor.' joke.
I wondered this as well. I don't think he'll become a regular character, but I can see them using that particular joke much less now. I guess Scruffy appears more in Season 6 because David Herman is now a main cast member.
totalnerd undercanada

DOOP Ubersecretary
**
« Reply #158 on: 06-29-2011 02:34 »

It is true that the writers have been utilizing Scruffy a lot more (most significantly in "The Prisoner of Benda"), but I don't think he'll ever be more than a tertiary character. I don't imagine he'd ever be on-par with the other lead and supporting characters--that is, I don't think we'll ever get an episode like "Why Must I Be a Crustacean in Love?" or "How Hermes Requisitioned His Groove Back" or "Kif Gets Knocked Up a Notch" that focuses on Scruffy. That would kind of defeat the purpose of his character, I think.

Second.

Scruffy's been used a lot more because he's useful, he gets to provide comments and one-liners that might not seem character-appropriate for the more fleshed-out secondary characters. He's still a tertiary character, but he's one in the foreground rather than the background now. I like the fact that he's being utilised without them feeling the need to develop him. 

He's still essentially the same as he ever was, but we know a little more about him, which helps to frame him for us - this is a pretty fine balance. So far the cast and crew have done a wonderful job keeping Scruffy as a one-dimensional incidental character, and I can see him remaining so. However, that doesn't have to mean he's rarely on screen.
HezaDelSol

Crustacean
*
« Reply #159 on: 06-29-2011 03:23 »
« Last Edit on: 06-29-2011 03:26 »

I don't think we've really learned more about scruffy as much as we've just seen more of him. We still don't know how he came to work at Planet Express, seeing as how the Professor doesn't seem to know him. We don't know anything about Scruffy other then he likes girly magazines and mops the floor. As much as I like Scruffy, this level of anonymity is key to his character. I wouldn't want a Scruffy centric episode, it would completely ruin what his character is supposed to be. I don't mind having him around in more episodes just to be there though.


 I like the fact that he's being utilised without them feeling the need to develop him. 


.....Second.
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