Thoughts on 6ACV07 - The late Philip J. Fry - SPOILERS

[Reply #360 on:]

I guess it's assumed that earth will be too hot to support life in a billion years?

[Reply #361 on:]

Indeed.

"As a result, the Sun is growing brighter at a rate of ten percent every 1.1 billion years. In one billion years' time, as the Sun's radiation output increases, its circumstellar habitable zone  will move outwards, making the Earth's surface hot enough that liquid water can no longer exist there naturally. At this point, all life on land will become extinct." - Wikipedia

The Red Giant phase isn't for another 5.4 billion years yet, apparently.


Why can't those bikini-clad ladies who do have reverse time machines but don't have many men-folk use their time machines to get more men?

[Reply #362 on:]

duh, because they don't have forward time machines to bring them back with.

[Reply #363 on:]

But a forward time-travelling machine can be made "easily" using cryonic technology. Or by building a spaceship that travels just under the speed of light (unless relativity doesn't apply in the Futurama universe).

[Reply #364 on:]

I'm sure the backwards time machine would be able to go back in time until they were back in their time.

[Reply #365 on:]

I really liked it. Perfect eerie/touchingly sad music paired with the earth being enveloped by the Sun. It made me feel so depressed...until I realized I'd be gone by then anyway Haha...ow

Anyway, the only thing I find curious is that the cave would still be there a billion years later? Like no civilization tore it down or aliens zapped it etc...makes for the perfect storyline though

[Reply #366 on:]

I'm sure the backwards time machine would be able to go back in time until they were back in their time.

No, the backwards time machine would only be able to take them back to the beginning. The forwards time machine was only able to go around the cycle because being outside of time and moving in the same direction, it was able to hop over the discontinuity where the loop joins up. A backwards time machine would be moving in the opposite direction to time, and therefore would hit the discontinuity. Think of it like this:



Now, taking a close up...



Green represents the path of a forwards time machine. Red a backwards one.

I hope this is helpful in enabling you to visualise why it wouldn't work, and therefore why you are wrong.

[Reply #367 on:]

BUT -Couldn't the time machine hop the universal "wall" to go back to the original time?

EDIT: Bring it on, Totalnerduk.

[Reply #368 on:]

No. The machine travelling backwards in time will not be able to contine past the point where time began, since there is nothing for it to travel through. Farnsworth's machine is travelling forwards past the end, and therefore must be outside of time.

It is able to travel over the join between the beginning and end of time because it exists independantly of space and time whilst travelling. Had they not been travelling, they would have constituted a part of spacetime at the end of the universe, and eventually their constituent protons would have decayed, enabling time to join up again and restart following the end.

However, they travel over the join. Ergo they are travelling outside of time (note that with a backwards time machine, you'd need to travel within spacetime - simply backwards instead of forwards. If you disconnect yourself from spacetime, it's going to keep on moving forwards even if you don't. A standing-still-in-time machine might be possible that way, but a backwards time machine wouldn't).

Now, going backwards in time, there's nothing before the beginning. Whether or not the machine exists outside of time, there's nothing before the beginning to travel back to. The beginning is as far back as you can go. Whilst spacetime and the timeline join up at the beginning and end, there's no way to go backwards past the point where things began, because for things to begin, there had to be nothing. If you travel back to a point before the beginning, then you invalidate the nothing, and thus your time machine is preventing the universe from happening. Which can't happen, since your time machine is already in the universe. So it won't go back any further than the beginning. It will arrive at the beginning and stop.

Another form of paradox, y'see. If you're going to postulate theories regarding time travel, you really ought to be well-accquainted with how both paradoxes and apparant paradoxes work. It might help you.

EDIT: Bring it on, Totalnerduk.

Brought and served, and hopefully helpful to you in showing you how you are wrong.

[Reply #369 on:]

And if you're going to pontificate in boldface, you ought to be able to spell "apparent".  I'm not attacking your arguments, Total; it's just that, if you looked at the word long enough to boldtag it you can't pretend the spelling error was careless.

[Reply #370 on:]

It's the ironic mistake that destroys my credibilty. 95% of my long posts have one. See if you can spot them all!

[Reply #371 on:]

"contine"
Yea I wun!... er win. lol

[Reply #372 on:]

Brilliant episode.

Also, I agree with tnuk's cyclical time explanation simply because the alternative is:

- Leela died, old and lonely in Universe 1.
- Fry, bender and farnsworth died a brutal death in Universe 3.

So, I accept the cyclical time thing, since the alternative would be a really miserable result. It's also a lot cooler than multiple repeated universes.

[Reply #373 on:]

I think multiple repeated universes is a lot cooler personally. It's certainly a far more original concept.

[Reply #374 on:]

And solves the problem that occurred in this episode.

[Reply #375 on:]

And solves the problem that occurred in this episode.

CU solves nothing, and causes its own problems within the established Futuramaverse model. CT actually ties the whole thing up very neatly.

Show spoiler

Click to expand.

Show spoiler

Click to expand.

[Reply #376 on:]

Maybe I'm confused but didn't the Prof say that it is another universe just like the old one when the start over the first time around. That doesn't sound very cyclical to me.

[Reply #377 on:]

Maybe I'm confused but didn't the Prof say that it is another universe just like the old one when the start over the first time around. That doesn't sound very cyclical to me.

I suggest you read the thread those posts were quoted from, then read this thread from the beginning, then read the thread those posts were quoted from again.

[Reply #378 on:]

Maybe I'm confused but didn't the Prof say that it is another universe just like the old one when the start over the first time around. That doesn't sound very cyclical to me.

When changes are made to the previous universe, these are also applied to the new one, because time is cyclical (in this episode), so the new universe would clone the old one.

[Reply #379 on:]

Thanks dude!

And totalnerduk as-well of course. Re-read the entire thread (go on, test me) without skipping a single post. I wasn't aware that your drawing was meant to explain time travel in Futurama once and for all.

Personally I look at it from the writers point of view. Of course time had to be somehow repeating/cyclical/looping otherwise Futurama would have ended. I'm not sure they actually thought through how it would work exactly. Otherwise why would the Prof say a 'second big bang' (yes I know it has been mentioned before). Nor can I see the 10 feet as anything other than a plot device, funny gag, since ten feet is not identical to me (yes it could be some strange perversion of the universe).

In any case it isn't actually that important to me. Plus I travelled through time yesterday (from West Coast to Europe) so I'm missing a day and need more sleep before I can continue to think. Not to suggest it would help.

[Reply #380 on:]

My drawings are very simplified versions of a model-in-progress. When I figure out a way to represent it properly, I'll put it up on PEEL.

[Reply #381 on:]

so, are we moving the other argument over here?

Firstly let me just say if you feel my posts are in the area of badgering you or harrassment/trolling/ect, that is not my intent.
Irking may be a small part but that is only in jest.
If so let me know and Ill tone it down.

Mostly I just like these kinds of discussions. If we were person to person I suspect it would have been resolved much sooner, but post to post returns can seem a bit ... extended?
Anywho...

At this point I get what your saying about the "event curve irons out any deviations"
This is represented in the show as the Doom-Field.The problem Im having is that the same principle can be applied to CU.
In its most basic form what Im saying is that the flow of time, whether curved or not, would smooth out any problems.
Just as a curved path would enforce certain flow of time, so too would a linear path.
Like how a curved or straight river both have an enforceing flow of water.

In which case there would be little to no local difference between CT or CU.

I think what he's trying to say is that, if time doesn't cycle on a large scale it won't want to cycle on a small scale...
in example:
 in a cyclic time model, i go back in time and stop myself from buying a full Futurama season 6 set on dvd... my past self instead gets it for a birthday present, because time needed to have continuity in orde to be able to go on properly... the me that was in the past is now the present me...who goes back to tell himself to not buy it... then that past self gets it as a b-day present, and it cycles through again... thus we have a stable loop!  

in a cyclic universe model i go back in time and stop myself from getting futurama season 6 on dvd... this time i don't get it for my birthday... back in the future i may or may not have it... i most likely don't but i still have memories of having them from going back... or maybe i don't... i also have no reason to go back and stop myself from getting them...  so i don't, but then i do get them in the past and the  cycle continues...  time doesn't need the continuity in order to continue... thus we have an unstable loop...  

Did i explain it right, totalnerduk?  

Why would they not give you the DVD gift as a birthday present just because its CU?
There is no reason the same effect wouldn't apply to a CU.
Both models have a flow of time that would enforce and dictate continuity.

If the continuity dictates you end up with a season 6 DVD of Futurama, then its gunna happen whether its CT or CU becuase of that flow of time.

here's the last few bits from the other topic... i hope my thing in here helps and i brought Erdrik's stuff so you can prove him wrong... 'cuz i'm losing the argument on  my own

EDIT:(sorry for the huge quotes...)

[Reply #382 on:]

if anything it should move the other way, as this is a rather specific topic, and this thread is for discussion of the episode in general.

[Reply #383 on:]

Maybe German just changed since the Hitler era since they didn't want to be associated with him. Thanks for translating from Hitlerese in that case.

I wouldn't say so. From the Hitler speeches I have heard he simply did not adress his audience with the formal 'Sie' but used the more familiar 'ihr'. Most famous example probably being his adress 'Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?' (Do you want total war?) this familiar adress was intentionally used to emphasise the difference between 'us' (Germans) and them, and to emphasise his closeness to the people.

It is really a rethorical question of whether somone uses the polite version in a speech or not and has nothing to do with the German language changing. Depending on the setting some politicians certainly still use the less formal 'Ihr' when adressing a crowd.

[Reply #384 on:]

Sorry to say everyone, but I see very little magic in this episode. I have waited a few weeks to pass judgement and watched it quite a few times and still my opinion stays the same.

Outside of a few clever references to past episodes and funny one line zingers I did not find really much of anything in this episode to be entertaining. I actually felt the episode dragging on in the second half as the laughs were limited (outside of the one stop to kill Hitler). As I have discussed before with episodes like Jurassic Bark, and LOTF, I do not enjoy when the episodes rely purely on the emotional aspect of the characters to carry the episode and that is what happened here in the case of Fry and Leela. The whole aspect of Fry and Leela is just getting to be boring for me in all honesty. It is like the writers are just unsure of what to do with that relationship so they just keeping going back and forth with it.

I have watched this episode a few times and while there a few funny parts which I enjoyed, this episode for me as a whole is below average and I think that it in no way deserves to be the highest rated episode of all time at 95% (I would give it a 45% max). I have tried really hard to find what others have found to be so amazing about this episode and can't. Therefore I am unable to jump on the bandwagon for this one.

[Reply #385 on:]

I do not enjoy when the episodes rely purely on the emotional aspect of the characters to carry the episode and that is what happened here in the case of Fry and Leela.

well then obviously it's lost on you.

The whole aspect of Fry and Leela is just getting to be boring for me in all honesty. It is like the writers are just unsure of what to do with that relationship so they just keeping going back and forth with it.

they'll decide soon enough what to do if they haven't already... they just need to know the right way to go about it... Yes I have a lot of faith in the writers...

[Reply #386 on:]

 

[Reply #387 on:]

No different than now I suppose

[Reply #388 on:]

It's more extreme-life-support than being dead.

[Reply #389 on:]

No different than being a head in a jar.

[Reply #390 on:]

 

[Reply #391 on:]

More likely Hermes just couldn't afford the fancy set up that Amy got.

[Reply #392 on:]

Why can't those bikini-clad ladies who do have reverse time machines but don't have many men-folk use their time machines to get more men?

I strongly suspect that they don't have backwards time machines, they were just saying that to get Fry and the Professor out of the time machine.  The things in that scene that I think were important:

1. There are very few males in their era, as is shown on screen, and as they themselves state.

2. They want Fry and the Professor to attend a "fertility rite" that evening.

3.  The women insist that providing a reverse time machine be put off until AFTER the fertility rite.

4. The Professor states that he cannot see any harm in attending a fertility rite.  (ironic statement?)

My Conclusions: Any males that the women of this era find are sacrificed during this "fertility rite", hence their otherwise unaccountable absence.  When the Professor's time machine shows up, the women immediately spot the opportunity to use the two males in the rite.  Since they don't care about Fry's stupidity, I doubt that they intend to have their children (which would introduce his inferior genetic material into their gene pool), but instead would go straight to the sacrificial rite (once Fry and the Professor are safely away from the time machine).

So Bender actually saved their lives by angrily pushing the control lever forward!

[Reply #393 on:]

Not to mention pulling too many men from the past would likely futs up Humanity's genetic lineage.

[Reply #394 on:]

Why can't those bikini-clad ladies who do have reverse time machines but don't have many men-folk use their time machines to get more men?

I strongly suspect that they don't have backwards time machines, they were just saying that to get Fry and the Professor out of the time machine.  The things in that scene that I think were important:

1. There are very few males in their era, as is shown on screen, and as they themselves state.

2. They want Fry and the Professor to attend a "fertility rite" that evening.

3.  The women insist that providing a reverse time machine be put off until AFTER the fertility rite.

4. The Professor states that he cannot see any harm in attending a fertility rite.  (ironic statement?)

My Conclusions: Any males that the women of this era find are sacrificed during this "fertility rite", hence their otherwise unaccountable absence.  When the Professor's time machine shows up, the women immediately spot the opportunity to use the two males in the rite.  Since they don't care about Fry's stupidity, I doubt that they intend to have their children (which would introduce his inferior genetic material into their gene pool), but instead would go straight to the sacrificial rite (once Fry and the Professor are safely away from the time machine).

So Bender actually saved their lives by angrily pushing the control lever forward!

I agree. It was implied by the ridiculously hot women's eerily seductive smiles and Sirens' voices that they were actually wicked black widows who were going to kill and possibly eat Fry and the Professor during the fertility banquet. The hot women were just telling them what they wanted to hear to convince them to stay; I don't think they had a reverse time machine. Bender definitely saved their lives by spoiling their opportunity to get with those women.

[Reply #395 on:]

Well done epsiode even though I am an anti-shipper.  I loved when the professor missed the correct time a 2nd time!  That was a hilarious gag.  All in all, well done, and some good laughs.  Just not in to the sappy Fry-Leela love angle.

[Reply #396 on:]

I really don't think there was anything sinister going on with the women. It was just a perfect world for the Professor and Fry and Bender ruined it for them, that's the joke.

I get that something about it felt a little off, but that's because we're so used to things not being all that they seem in films like The Time Machine and whatnot.

Of course, if they had stayed, it would have turned out that something bad was happening because the plot would have needed a new direction to stay fresh.

[Reply #397 on:]

^ I agree.  It was supposed to be perfect, that's the joke.

[Reply #398 on:]

Hi guys, just one question about the music. And noooooo I dont mean in the year 2525 :P I was wondering about the music when they decide for the first time to
watch the universe end. That women choir music chant ... song ... thing, whatever.
I wonder if anyone knows where its from. Reminded me a little of the music played
in Braveheart when he was about to be executed.

[Reply #399 on:]

I believe it was an original composition by Christopher Tyng.