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Author Topic: New Futurama Speculations 2.0 - (Hopefully) Making Dreams Come True  (Read 29936 times)
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FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #120 on: 10-13-2009 05:36 »

Does anybody else find it funny how the planet express crew outside of work don't really seem to have any friends of their own?
Apart from bender, that is.

I guess we'll see what the future holds, maybe they'll look into that.

Not really. I've written about this in the previous version of this thread, but the heart of Futurama is the family that is the crew of Planet Express. They start the series as coworkers (who admittedly spend quite a bit of time outside of work anyway) and become closer as it goes on, which I quite like. They don't need other friends, because they have each other.

I feel that a closer crew lead to better jokes, better stories, and a more realized world. I liked the show because of the jokes, but I love the show because of the characters and the family they are. Michelle in 219 and Fry in 309 say it best when they surmise that the crew are "freaks" who don't fit in anywhere/with anyone else, but are perfect for each other.

P.S. My post on this in the previous thread (under the second quote): http://www.peelified.com/index.php?topic=17870.msg1070085#msg1070085
lilkitten29

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #121 on: 10-13-2009 05:39 »

Yeah, they don't need other friends if the have eachother.
Freako

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #122 on: 10-13-2009 05:44 »

I dare say, I just got fisted.

no wait...
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #123 on: 10-13-2009 06:25 »

You can send the check in the mail.
Freako

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #124 on: 10-13-2009 08:57 »
« Last Edit on: 10-13-2009 08:58 by Futurama_Freak1 »

I'd love too but I think I'll sit on the toilet for a while.
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #125 on: 10-13-2009 17:29 »
« Last Edit on: 10-13-2009 17:32 »

Not really. I've written about this in the previous version of this thread, but the heart of Futurama is the family that is the crew of Planet Express. They start the series as coworkers (who admittedly spend quite a bit of time outside of work anyway) and become closer as it goes on, which I quite like. They don't need other friends, because they have each other.

That's a good point, and another example of the kind of development the show had as the seasons progressed, whether it was intentional or not (of course, I'd like to think that it was). You're right; the closer they got, the better and more meaningful, generally speaking, the stories got. I agree that the dynamic of the crew, family-like but still with a job to do, is where the core of the show is. Since it's been said that the new episodes will focus a bit more on the characters and domestic issues, I trust that we'll get an even better look into the characters' relationships to each other.

And, of course, the whole rebirth thing will be a pretty important matter involving this family as well...
Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #126 on: 10-14-2009 00:19 »
« Last Edit on: 10-14-2009 00:47 »

Ack, curse this thread, it's far too interesting... and I'm far to busy to devote much time to it.

To be fair, at the end of BBS, he gave her up for the sake of her happiness, sacrificing his. That's a very mature thing to do.

Oh sure, thats why I said it's an ongoing process. That, afterall, happened later.

Quote
So along with their relationship, any maturity Fry gained was reset as well.

Hey, no arguments here.

Quote
We know she loves the guy, as does she, but they never let her mature in that direction. Love is a two-way street, and the writers never let her cross it.

Do we know that though? Sure theres that declaration in ITWGY, but that happens later. From where I'm standing that was her epiphany, her moment of revelation, she was sure of her feelings for the first time. If theres one thing we know about her its that she's nothing if not forthright. If she'd have felt it before, she'd have acted on it/stated it before now.

Quote
One of the reasons The Sting is such a well-loved episode is that it's one of the only ones that actually lets us see the 'ship from Leela's perspective. Otherwise, she appears as an emotional coward, constantly backing off even when her own feelings tell her otherwise.

I disagree. Sure, The Sting shows great friendship and even affection on her part, but actual love... I don't see it. At least not consciously. Her subconscious, as she herself said,  "I've never been treated so romantically by my own subconscious!" - is another matter.

(Although nothing will placate some of the more extreme shippers out there, I suppose; a lot of them just can't understand why Leela doesn't throw herself at Fry's feet just because he's so obsessed with her. They don't understand Leela's personality; they're just projecting themselves into the situation in her place. God help those people with real-life relationships if that's true!  wink ).

I really get ticked at the idea that Leela's a "bitch" for resisting. Come on! She made it clear to Zoidberg - she loves Fry's boyish charm, but hates his childishness. That is totally in character for her. She's strong, competent, willing to take reasonable risks, and no-nonsense. She has to pull more than her share of the weight because she's stuck with two slackers as crewmates (Bender and Fry). Why shouldn't she resent that and use it as a count against Fry? I see too many cartoons these days in which a female is hooked up with a worthless idiot male (Marge and Homer, Lois and Peter, hell, even Cosmo and Wanda from Fairly Odd Parents). And the female has to put up with a HELL of a lot, and I don't know about you, but sometimes it gets to the point where I can't help asking (even though it's a cartoon) "Why is she with HIM? What the hell is the appeal?" In extreme cases it interferes with my enjoyment of the cartoon. Now, in fairness to Fry, he's about a billion times better than Peter Griffin or Cosmo or even Homer (who I like, BTW; he's as big-hearted as Fry. But he does cause Marge an endless amount of grief, and unfortunately he's the original that inferior copies have been made from). But just the same, I think it makes perfect sense that Leela isn't allowing herself to be pushed into something she's not sure of. Remember the episode "Bicyclops Built For Two"? She got herself into a relationship with what appeared to be the perfect man - and he turned into a boor the moment she gave in to him. And Fry too can be boorish. Given her rotten luck with past boyfriends, I think the girl should be cut some slack.  After all, she's not cruel to Fry, not deliberately. She doesn't deserve the title of "bitch" just because she's not a pushover. JMHO.

You just got my vote for POTM.
Go-a-Green-a

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #127 on: 10-14-2009 02:25 »

Damn... you just replied to everything I was going to reply to. hmpf
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #128 on: 10-14-2009 04:04 »
« Last Edit on: 10-14-2009 07:08 »

Ah, Man! Here we go again!

To be fair, at the end of BBS, he gave her up for the sake of her happiness, sacrificing his. That's a very mature thing to do.
Oh sure, thats why I said it's an ongoing process. That, afterall, happened later.

My point on Fry's maturity is that it isn't an ongoing process. It's a stop-start one. The writers, for the sake of self-containedness (not a real word), didn't develop it to the level that they should've. The problem wasn't that they set it aside, it's that in many episodes they regressed it. Episodes like 314 and 415 betray the type of growth Fry had in episodes like 304 or 412. There was no reason to do that. Those episodes would have worked just as well, if not better, had they kept a respect for the earlier growth of the character.

I mean, it's not like I need Fry to act totally "mature" (like Lars (dear Robot God, no!)), since his goofiness is an inherent part of his character. But regressing the character (i.e. making him act childish) did nothing to develop him or make him funnier. It's why you and others who agree with you have ammo: Because the writers didn't give that part of the character the respect (a.k.a. continuity) he deserved.

S4 was nearly perfect in terms of respecting Fry's development. Between deeper episodes Fry is in his "normal" goofbag state (thank you, ITWGY!), but they don't betray the mature Fry that appears in the deeper episodes. If it wasn't for 415 (the only one to betray his maturity to make him act childish) it would have been a K.O.

It's just that, I want to give Fry the benefit of the doubt for the sake of not regressing him or the show any more than they were. The writers were unsure how the fans would respond to a somewhat better kept continuity so they didn't keep it as much as they should have. It's not Fry's fault he acted childish in certain episodes, even though he had matured canonically. He was just written that way. I want a deeper sense of continuity so that he and the others can develop more as characters and for that goal to be achieved, I'm willing to forgive such earlier missteps as I listed for the sake of moving the series forward.

As for this maturity thing, I find the argument somewhat weak because of the reasons I listed, the episodes when he's made very adult decisions, and because it was only mentioned one time on the show. Seriously, would this "Is Fry mature enough for Leela?" thing even exist if Leela hadn't mentioned it (one time!) in 314?

Quote from: Chug a Bug
Do we know that though? Sure theres that declaration in ITWGY, but that happens later. From where I'm standing that was her epiphany, her moment of revelation, she was sure of her feelings for the first time. If theres one thing we know about her its that she's nothing if not forthright. If she'd have felt it before, she'd have acted on it/stated it before now.

Not necessarily. One of the things shippers often argue about why Leela is so apprehensive toward a relationship with Fry (other than that maturity angle) is that she values her friendship with Fry. A lot. He's the first real friend she's ever had, and still the closest person to her (probably closer than her parents even). If she went into a relationship with him and it didn't work out, she fears they would never recover from it. That would be devastating to her. So she holds off, staying friends with with him (safe), rather than going for a romantic relationship (risky, possible bitter end).

Also, yes, we do know she cares for him, since at least 110 (although with their long history later on, you could say the sparks were laid in the very first episode). While her side of the relationship wasn't given the attention it deserved (specifically S1-S3), it was still developed somewhat. I mean, the maturity mentioning episode itself (314) has Leela asking Zoidberg if she should look past her perception of him being childish in order to start a romantic relationship with him. She wouldn't be asking if she wasn't thinking about it, would she?

I could name many other examples, from any season, but I think we all know that it's abundantly clear that, though apprehensive, Leela does have feelings for Fry, those feelings being love.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
Sure, The Sting shows great friendship and even affection on her part, but actual love... I don't see it. At least not consciously. Her subconscious, as she herself said,  "I've never been treated so romantically by my own subconscious!" - is another matter.

Huh? Her subconscious hallucination is most of the episode. You said it yourself, subconsciously she has Fry taking her on romantic dates and not wanting to live without him. Yes, it does work from a friendship angle too (and they would have been great friends, even if they were never romantically linked), but the dates still clearly show what she wants (if they were only friends (i.e. that's all she thought of him as) then wouldn't she have hallucinated something different, something less romantic?).

Admittedly, Fry was the one talking to her, and mentioning all the things she would end up hallucinating, but I still think she must think of him romantically (I feel like there is a better word I could be using) to hallucinate him the way she did and feel the way she did. I mean, isn't one of the things your subconscious does is deal with things (i.e. feelings) that your conscious won't?

                                                 CONCLUSION

So, as I mentioned earlier Hakuna Matata (I'm so clever!), I want Fry and Leela to be dating in the new season and early on, so as to develop them more. Yes, there were missteps before (Fry acted childish when he shouldn't have, Leela wasn't given time to let her feelings known enough), but we've had enough of them separated. It's abundantly clear that these two were made for each other, and to keep them apart any longer would be boring for the show and a disservice to the characters and fans who have gone through so much. ITWGY was the much needed resolution to a long running story arc. I want Rebirth (or the first few episodes of 6, I don't know how the writers went about it) to be the start of a new one.
Go-a-Green-a

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #129 on: 10-14-2009 04:14 »

...Now I have nothing to say at all. That was explained to the fullest, FistfulOAwesome.
El-Man

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #130 on: 10-14-2009 05:35 »

[Gabby Johnson] REMITT! [/Gabby Johnson]*

I hope somehow the Producers on the show manage to see that.

*see 'Blazing Saddles'
Freako

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #131 on: 10-14-2009 05:57 »

How many more times is this conversation cycle going to repeat until June?
Go-a-Green-a

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #132 on: 10-14-2009 06:03 »

I guess what goes around really does come around.
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #133 on: 10-14-2009 16:32 »

It's just that, I want to give Fry the benefit of the doubt for the sake of not regressing him or the show any more than they were. The writers were unsure how the fans would respond to a somewhat better kept continuity so they didn't keep it as much as they should have.

Oh, that's what happened? I suppose that does make the most sense because I would like to give both Fry and the writers the benefit of the doubt myself. Clearly there was at least some attention to continuity and development as the series progressed, but as we know there wasn't enough and I had wondered why. Even season four, which I agree respects the 'ship and all of that the best, has its moments of resetting beyond one instance of Fry being childish (but at least "The Farnsworth Parabox" shows the way the Fry-Leela relationship could work and be still funny and interesting, giving us hope for the new episodes, and Fry’s jealousy in that episode is at least somewhat understandable, since he’s seeing face-to-face what could have been while he has been slowly, slowly reaching a stronger relationship with Leela in his own universe…). Granted, the endings of “The Why of Fry” and “The Sting” do not guarantee any dating whatsoever, since they both can be seen as Leela needed Fry as a very close friend but not a boyfriend (like you said), but to have both of these endings (as well as the date-like event in “Teenage Mutant Leela’s Hurdles”) so close together and still not have them actually dating makes one feel that the ‘ship isn’t getting anywhere (although, as has been said, there is definite development as the series progressed and there is of course ITWGY). Then again, I’m glad that they left the ending of Devil’s Hands ambiguous (even though I always imagine that they would date afterwards, as I’m sure others did too, hence some of the indignation at the movies); there wouldn’t have been enough time left in the series to bring an actual dating relationship to its full potential and it may have been a bit forced, but now there are new episodes and there’s no reason to not have the relationship be developed further.

By the way, Fistful, good work on your name-twisting again. You're going beyond the letters of the original name now...scary stuff.

How many more times is this conversation cycle going to repeat until June?

Um...maybe twenty? until there's new footage or other new episode-related items to discuss...but even then it would probably end up back to this sort of thought process again.  wink
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #134 on: 10-14-2009 19:39 »
« Last Edit on: 10-15-2009 01:25 »

Don't get me wrong Tad Wordy (pro-tip: paragraphs are not Satan's tool), I appreciate what the writers managed to do. I wouldn't even have a show to admire and complain about (because I care so much) if it wasn't for the fantastic writing and well-developed characters they created. But we've already agreed that a bit more continuity would have been fantastic. I can't imagine it'd be that harder to respect earlier storylines/advancements while still keeping the show's episodic nature and the characters base personalities (i.e. Fry=goofy) intact. I believe they can do it, and hope so for S6.

Anyway, I only singled out The Farnsworth Parabox because it's the one instance of Fry regressing that I see in S4. I appreciate the bits with Fry1/Leela1 (hell, that's a very good example for the writers to follow for when our Fry and Leela get together), and the ending is nice, but I still feel that Fry's jealously is a bad character development. The restaurant scene in particular has Fry acting completely childish about the bad bit of chance he just found out he had. He's a complete brat just because he found out that he didn't get what he wanted. That doesn't sit right with me.

I don't think I can even believe in the jealousy thing anymore. Fry had matured so much throughout the series (especially S4) that I find it OOC for him to go back to childish, bratty behavior. It always leaves me with a bad feeling when they regress him, especially when I know a little bit of better writing would have left regressing completely unnecessary.

As for the time between Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles, The Why of Fry, and The Sting, I know how you feel, but I still want to give those episodes the credit they deserve. They handled Fry, Leela, and their relationship fantastically, and I'm willing to look past that they aren't talking about previous events, since they also aren't denying them either, by which I mean they aren't regressing Fry or Leela. Again, my problem with The Farnsworth Parabox (seriously, it's still a great episode, despite my complaints) is that it regressed Fry and Leela to Fry pleading for a date, and Leela denying him one without adequate reason.

I feel that once we hit S4 Fry grew past pleading for dates and being heartbroken over Leela not expressing similar feelings for him. None of the other episodes in S4 have him pleading (closest he comes is Love & Rocket, and that one has him being playful and not forceful about his "crush" on her (I'll take the time to mention I quite like that episode, just cause I feel like it) rather than being whiny/annoying about it), and I quite liked seeing Fry having matured to that state. It was no longer about him "making Leela love me", as it was about him realizing that being forceful would just turn her off, and that if he really believed she loves him as much as he loves her, then time was the only factor, and until then he could continue being great friends with her (with some playful reminders and acts like in Leela's Homeworld, Love & Rocket, and Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles).

Finally, yeah, I like the ambiguous ending to Devil's Hands too. It left a lot open for a return, if they had in fact gone on to a S5 way back when, rather than the pseudo S5 of the movies. It's unfortunate that the episode's ending wasn't played on come BBS and F/L had to be regressed to a S3-like state. I don't think that was necessary, but it wouldn't do any good to complain now since we got our resolution (and what a great one it is) in ITWGY, so I'll let bygones be bygones.

P.S. You know, I kind-of feel bad that in all these character/writing analysis, I forget to mention what Leela's thoughts and the writers development of her are like.

O.k. here's one: I think The Farnsworth Parabox would have been more interesting had they not regressed F/L, and had they put the focus on Leela rather than Fry. We already know that Fry is completely for a relationship, so I think rather than have Fry whine about his loss, it would have been more interesting to have Leela be very inquisitive to Leela 1 about why she married Fry 1. It would have been a nice development for her, to find out how a different version of her (but not that different) came to love a man she has unsure feelings about.

P.P.S. Heh. You remember my family post from up top? I just realized that S4 had both of the alien P.E. crew members (Leela and Zoidberg) find out that they aren't aliens at all. Leela found out that she is an Earthling, having found her origin literally under her nose, and Zoidberg found out that home is where you're loved, not where you live. Kinda cute, doncha think?

P.P.P.S. Hypocritical of me to nickname you Tad Wordy, considering how long I usually go on in my posts.
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #135 on: 10-14-2009 22:57 »

(pro-tip: paragraphs are not Satan's tool)

Hmm...that is a bit hard on the eyes, isn't it? It felt like one thought though...not that that would make much of a difference...

I appreciate what the writers managed to do. I wouldn't even have a show to admire and complain about (because I care so much) if it wasn't for the fantastic writing and well-developed characters they created. But we've already agreed that a bit more continuity would have been fantastic. I can't imagine it'd be that harder to respect earlier storylines/advancements while still keeping the show's episodic nature and the characters base personalities (i.e. Fry=goofy) intact. I believe they can do it, and hope so for S6.

Of course.

As for all of your explanations and character analyses and such, I agree pretty much completely, and understand your point of view as well. Seeing more of Leela’s perspective in “The Farnsworth Parabox” would probably have been a better idea; she seemed curious enough about it as it was, so it wouldn’t have hurt to have her ask more questions and thus spend less time on Fry being so bitter. Since the show has been a bit more focused on Fry than Leela especially as far as the ‘ship is concerned, I can’t blame the writers for giving his reactions a bit more screen time, but I agree that Leela’s reactions are just as important (if not more so at that point in the series since we already have a pretty good sense of where Fry is) and when you explain it as you did Fry is having a bit of a regression there.

As for the other season four shippy episodes, I also agree with you that they are handled quite well. I just hope that the increasing foundation of mutual respect and love, whatever form it may have taken, that these episodes gave isn’t forgotten as we move into new episodes of such high ‘ship-advancing potential.

P.P.S. Heh. You remember my family post from up top? I just realized that S4 had both of the alien P.E. crew members (Leela and Zoidberg) find out that they aren't aliens at all. Leela found out that she is an Earthling, having found her origin literally under her nose, and Zoidberg found out that home is where you're loved, not where you live. Kinda cute, doncha think?

I never thought of it that way before! That only further shows the development of the show's core as the seasons progressed; the crew grows closer and the characters, or at least these ones, are able to define themselves as closer to this family too. Nice thinking!

Actually, the family kind of feel happens in "Teenage Mutant Leela's Hurdles" too, even if it is overshadowed by the hilarious scenario itself.

P.P.P.S. Hypocritical of me to nickname you Tad Wordy, considering how long I usually go on in my posts.

No, it's fine. If anything, it's better this way; I'm a tad wordy, while you are generally more so.  smile
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #136 on: 10-15-2009 00:54 »

As far the the crew-as-one-big-happy-family thing goes: I think "The Sting" is an excellent example of how supportive they could be of one another (granted, it's all Leela's dream). I mean, they care enough about the mental state of their friend to serenade her with '80's popular music. That's love right there.

As far as speculation goes: Uh...anyone think we'll get any episodes focusing on Farnsworth and Igner? Someone mentioned that they like those glimpses into Farnsworth's past with Mom, so I figure his newfound connection to the youngest of her sons could serve as fodder for a flashback-type thing.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #137 on: 10-15-2009 01:45 »
« Last Edit on: 10-15-2009 01:50 »

An episode focusing on Farnsworth and Igner is a must. I can already think that the Twitter episode is the obvious choice, considering it's a Mom focused episode, and the crew normally has to hold back Mom when she tries her evil schemes. It'd be a nice chance for father and son to reconnect and stop Mom from whatever her goals are. Also, some rivalry between Igner and Cubert could provide some good jokes and exposition.

As for flashback stuff, it seems unlikely. We already know a ton about The Professor and Mom's relationship, so I don't think we'll see much more of it (although it'll probably have a part near the beginning of the Professor/Zoidberg flashback episode). Even if it was, without Igner or The Professor knowing of their connection, there wouldn't be much to tell in their past. Better to use the Twitter episode (or another Mom focused episode) to develop them in the present.

Hey! You know what'd be kinda cool!? If The Professor/Zoidberg episode not only told us of how The Professor and Zoidberg met (and Zoidberg got hired), but also how P.E. even got started! I'd love if the flashback starts with The Professor in the dumps from being fired by Mom (after the BG flashback scene) and from there has him and Zoidberg meet and eventually create P.E. It would actually give the episode some emotional weight that I previously didn't think it could have.
Go-a-Green-a

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #138 on: 10-15-2009 01:48 »

Perhaps we might get a bit of an Igner subplot with a few flashbacks.... Somehow I don't think they could get a whole episode out of it (Or keep the interest of the fans with just Igner and the Prof).

Chug a Bug

Bending Unit
***
« Reply #139 on: 10-15-2009 01:52 »

Ah, Man! Here we go again!

How inconvenient that people have differing opinions, eh?

Quote
It's not Fry's fault he acted childish in certain episodes, even though he had matured canonically. He was just written that way.

You're saying that Fry has matured it's just the writers who don't write him that way.... and I find that faintly ridiculous. But leaving the question of whats canon and whats not aside for a moment - (since he was written that way it is canon, like it or not)  a few adult decisions every now and then do not make a complete, mature, responsible adult!

Quote
Also, yes, we do know she cares for him, since at least 110 (although with their long history later on, you could say the sparks were laid in the very first episode).

Oh I have no doubt that she cares for him, as a friend. A good friend.

Quote
the maturity mentioning episode itself (314) has Leela asking Zoidberg if she should look past her perception of him being childish in order to start a romantic relationship with him. She wouldn't be asking if she wasn't thinking about it, would she?

She actually states what am I going to do about him? That could also be interpreted as a cry of desperation at his sheer persistance! In anycase thinking about it is one thing, we can all think, but what we decide is something else entirely. Her decision was obviously in the negative. Saying that is emotional cowardice is simply bias. Her reasons i.e. he's immature (I know, you disagree), the fact he's lazy, dim, not particularly successful and totally lacking ambition i.e. the opposite of the qualities of the men that she actually dates - seem perfectly reasonable to me.

Quote
I mean, isn't one of the things your subconscious does is deal with things (i.e. feelings) that your conscious won't?

Yes, but the subconscious doesn't rationalise.

Quote
I want Fry and Leela to be dating in the new season and early on, so as to develop them more. Yes, there were missteps before (Fry acted childish when he shouldn't have, Leela wasn't given time to let her feelings known enough), but we've had enough of them separated. It's abundantly clear that these two were made for each other, and to keep them apart any longer would be boring for the show and a disservice to the characters and fans who have gone through so much. ITWGY was the much needed resolution to a long running story arc. I want Rebirth (or the first few episodes of 6, I don't know how the writers went about it) to be the start of a new one.

There I agree with you. Believe it or not.
Freako

Urban Legend
***
« Reply #140 on: 10-15-2009 02:11 »

coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #141 on: 10-15-2009 02:12 »

It's not Fry's fault he acted childish in certain episodes, even though he had matured canonically.

You know he isn't actually a real person, right? He is exactly what the writers want him to be. So you're debating the unseen virtues of a non-existent person whose attributes and actions are the whim of a group of rich nerds somewhere.

Chug-A-Bug called that 'faintly ridiculous', I call it completely fucking insane.
lilkitten29

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #142 on: 10-15-2009 03:59 »

FistfulOAwesome is spot on!
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #143 on: 10-15-2009 04:56 »
« Last Edit on: 10-15-2009 07:23 »

How inconvenient that people have differing opinions, eh?

Oh, I didn't mean it like that. It's really more of a call on my own unfortunate quirks.

As I'm sure you've noticed, I don't like to type out quick replies when I'm in an argument. I like to do my best to represent myself as clearly as possible, which for me requires large amounts of text. I don't like to simply reply to an argument. I want to destroy it, or at least make it look less credible by length and evidence. You write one sentence stating an opinion. I write 10 countering it with as much evidence as I deem necessary. It's sort-of a slightly more meaningful filibuster.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
You're saying that Fry has matured it's just the writers who don't write him that way.... and I find that faintly ridiculous. But leaving the question of whats canon and whats not aside for a moment - (since he was written that way it is canon, like it or not)  a few adult decisions every now and then do not make a complete, mature, responsible adult!

I'm willing to admit it seems mildly ridiculous to claim that Fry's more childish actions sort-of don't count because I think they are out of character. What I'm not willing concede is that I do think they were a bad decision, and I really don't want to hold them against the character because of what I feel are bad decisions of how the writers took him. This one is less factual than my other points and more of a personal bit, but I can't make myself not feel this way. The writers made some bad decisions that have harmed Fry's development as a character. As far as I'm concerned, that's fact.

But as I've said before, for the sake of developing the character further, along with the other characters, I'm willing to forgive. I don't want Fry or the show to spend any more time on what is a tired story (Fry's chasing of Leela (since his "maturity" is the main reason that storyline was claimed to go on for so long)) and an unnecessary regression of the character (Fry acting childish did nothing for the character. It didn't even make him funnier (if the writers thought that a more mature Fry (which doesn't mean a less goofy Fry) meant a less funny Fry)). S6 should have Fry and Leela together by the end of Rebirth or the first few episodes, and it should stop with the regression of Fry. The mistakes of the earlier seasons should not be allowed to interfere with the next seasons being the best that they can be.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
Oh I have no doubt that she cares for him, as a friend. A good friend.

I should have worded my original post more strongly.

Every single Fry and Leela relationship related moment in the series is up to interpretation. But I don't think it's hard to argue (at all) that Leela is at least interested in a romantic relationship with Fry, even if she's apprehensive about it for whatever reasons. I could literally go on every moment of their development and have it countered with "she's just being nice" or "it was fleeting" or "it would work just as well as friendship". Simply put, if you're not willing to concede that she is at least interested, there's little I could do to convince you otherwise (but I won't let that stop me later on in this post).

Quote from: Chug a Bug
She actually states what am I going to do about him? That could also be interpreted as a cry of desperation at his sheer persistance! In anycase thinking about it is one thing, we can all think, but what we decide is something else entirely. Her decision was obviously in the negative. Saying that is emotional cowardice is simply bias. Her reasons i.e. he's immature (I know, you disagree), the fact he's lazy, dim, not particularly successful and totally lacking ambition i.e. the opposite of the qualities of the men that she actually dates - seem perfectly reasonable to me.

Like I said, I can't do much to change how you perceive that scene (or similar scenes). I've already made my perceptions of the scene known. If you see it as a cry for help, I don't know what more to tell you.

When I said it was emotional cowardice for Leela to continuously back off, I was merely speaking of how it could be interpreted. Truly, I believe that Leela suffered from the same regression that Fry did, in addition to being given far less screen time to make her feelings on him known. I wish she could have gotten more, so we could know what she thinks, rather than mostly what Fry thinks.

The "facts" on Fry can be interpreted differently than you have presented them. He is mature (I don't know how you can see all the episodes where he's sacrificed and think otherwise), he's not really lazy so much as relaxed (Leela herself slowed down by the later seasons (part of her becoming part of the P.E. family really (she's willing to relax around them))), dim is again unfair since it's more like he doesn't really have that much to think about day by day (and his mature decisions certainly aren't brainless), and successful and ambition are personal things that can't really be defined by you or I, but only by Fry himself (to Fry, living his dream of exploring space is all he ever wanted. He may not have actively pursued it back in the 20th century, but thanks to the way his life unfurled, he is living his dream in the 30th century. Now his dream is to get with this one girl he likes at work, and he's certainly done his best to make that dream a reality).

Quote from: Chug a Bug
Yes, but the subconscious doesn't rationalise.

I see that as further proof that Leela thinks about Fry as more than a friend (i.e. romantically). If the subconscious doesn't rationalize, then that means when Leela is "freed" of her rationalizations about why she thinks she and Fry wouldn't work out, she has him take her on dates and imagines life as empty without him.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
There I agree with you. Believe it or not.

Hooray!

P.S. I feel like I didn't do my best on this post. But I'm too tired to go any further.
CookiesOnTheFloor
Bending Unit
***
« Reply #144 on: 10-15-2009 06:18 »
« Last Edit on: 10-15-2009 06:25 »

It's not Fry's fault he acted childish in certain episodes, even though he had matured canonically.

You know he isn't actually a real person, right? He is exactly what the writers want him to be. So you're debating the unseen virtues of a non-existent person whose attributes and actions are the whim of a group of rich nerds somewhere.

"Rich nerds"? "Nerds", I'll grant you, but you know they're cartoon writers, right?

Ha ha! That made me laugh.  laff

How inconvenient that people have differing opinions, eh?

Oh, I didn't mean it like that? It's really more of a call on my own unfortunate quirks.

As I'm sure you've noticed, I don't like to type out quick replies when I'm in an argument. I like to do my best to represent myself as clearly as possible, which for me requires large amounts of text. I don't like to simply reply to an argument. I want to destroy it, or at least make it look less credible by length and evidence. You write one sentence stating an opinion. I write 10 countering it with as much evidence as I deem necessary. It's sort-of a slightly more meaningful filibuster.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
You're saying that Fry has matured it's just the writers who don't write him that way.... and I find that faintly ridiculous. But leaving the question of whats canon and whats not aside for a moment - (since he was written that way it is canon, like it or not)  a few adult decisions every now and then do not make a complete, mature, responsible adult!

I'm willing to admit it seems mildly ridiculous to claim that Fry's more childish actions sort-of don't count because I think they are out of character. What I'm not willing concede is that I do think they were a bad decision, and I really don't want to hold them against the character because of what I feel are bad decisions of how the writers took him. This one is less factual than my other points and more of a personal bit, but I can't make myself not feel this way. The writers made some bad decisions that have harmed Fry's development as a character. As far as I'm concerned, that's fact.

But as I've said before, for the sake of developing the character further, along with the other characters, I'm willing to forgive. I don't want Fry or the show to spend any more time on what is a tired story (Fry's chasing of Leela (since his "maturity" is the main reason that storyline was claimed to go on for so long)) and an unnecessary regression of the character (Fry acting childish did nothing for the character. It didn't even make him funnier (if the writers thought that a more mature Fry (which doesn't mean a less goofy Fry) meant a less funny Fry)). S6 should have Fry and Leela together by the end of Rebirth or the first few episodes, and it should stop with the regression of Fry. The mistakes of the earlier seasons should not be allowed to interfere with the next seasons being the best that they can be.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
Oh I have no doubt that she cares for him, as a friend. A good friend.

I should have worded my original post more strongly.

Every single Fry and Leela relationship related moment in the series is up to interpretation. But I don't think it's hard to argue (at all) that Leela is at least interested in a romantic relationship with Fry, even if she's apprehensive about it for whatever reasons. I could literally go on every moment of their development and have it countered with "she's just being nice" or "it was fleeting" or "it would work just as well as friendship". Simply put, if you're not willing to concede that she is at least interested, there's little I could do to convince you otherwise (but I won't let that stop me later on in this post).

Quote from: Chug a Bug
She actually states what am I going to do about him? That could also be interpreted as a cry of desperation at his sheer persistance! In anycase thinking about it is one thing, we can all think, but what we decide is something else entirely. Her decision was obviously in the negative. Saying that is emotional cowardice is simply bias. Her reasons i.e. he's immature (I know, you disagree), the fact he's lazy, dim, not particularly successful and totally lacking ambition i.e. the opposite of the qualities of the men that she actually dates - seem perfectly reasonable to me.

Like I said, I can't do much to change how you perceive that scene (or similar scenes). I've already made my perceptions of the scene known. If you see it as a cry for help, I don't know what more to tell you.

When I said it was emotional cowardice for Leela to continuously back off, I was merely speaking of how it could be interpreted. Truly, I believe that Leela suffered from the same regression that Fry did, in addition to being given far less screen time to make her feelings on him known. I wish she could have gotten more, so we could know what she thinks, rather than mostly what Fry thinks.

The "facts" on Fry can be interpreted differently than you have presented them. He is mature (I don't know how you can see all the episodes where he's sacrificed and think otherwise), he's not really lazy so much as relaxed (Leela herself slowed down by the later seasons (part of her becoming part of the P.E. family really (she's willing to relax around them), dim is again unfair since it's more like he doesn't really have that much to think about day by day (and his mature decisions certainly aren't brainless), and successful and ambition are personal things that can't really be defined by you or I, but only by Fry himself (to Fry, living his dream of exploring space is all he ever wanted. He may not have actively pursued it back in the 20th century, but thanks to the way his life unfurled, he is living his dream in the 30th century. Now his dream is to get with this one girl he likes at work, and he's certainly done his best to make that dream a reality).

Quote from: Chug a Bug
Yes, but the subconscious doesn't rationalise.

I see that as further proof that Leela thinks about Fry as more than a friend (i.e. romantically). If the subconscious doesn't rationalize, then that means when Leela is "freed" of her rationalizations about why she thinks she and Fry wouldn't work out, she has him take her on dates and imagines life as empty without him.

Quote from: Chug a Bug
There I agree with you. Believe it or not.

Hooray!

P.S. I feel like I didn't do my best on this post. But I'm too tired to go any further.

I think the writers are pretty clever. They've got fans like us talking in circles, and who can say who's right or wrong? Me, I want Fry and Leela to get together someday. Yet I get such a kick out of watching the poor slob try so hard to win Leela's heart, that I kind of hate the idea of it coming to an end. But I trust the writers to find a way to keep the mojo going. They've handled the relationship brilliantly so far. Can't wait to see what they do next!
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #145 on: 10-15-2009 06:46 »

who can say who's right or wrong?

I can.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #146 on: 10-15-2009 07:45 »

Wow, Who Stole The Cookies From the Cookie Jar (And Then Dropped Them)! You know, you don't have to quote my long-ass post. You could have just written @FistfulOAwesome or quoted it but then deleted it all and wrote "FistfulOAwesome's long-ass post" in the brackets. I'm just saying, seems a little unnecessary to quote my post when your response is so short and it's right above your post.

As for Fry, don't worry about it. He'll have to work just as hard once he's actually dating Leela as when he was trying to get Leela to date him.
coldangel

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #147 on: 10-15-2009 09:34 »

No, there'll be out-of-character episodes where he takes her for granted and ignores her needs because the writers will want to have her cross at him for the sake of a story - like Homer and Marge at least twice a season on The Simpsons.

This is because it's a cartoon, and the characters will act however they need to in order to drive whatever half-hour plot is occurring on that particular week. There is also the fact that there are a bunch of different writers with different priorities and comedic sensibilities.
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #148 on: 10-15-2009 17:47 »

That's one of the things I'm concerned about, because yes, the writers have put more value on the story than the characters within it before, and it would be easy enough for them to do it again. It's just that there's the hope that the writers would do their best to be creative and make their plots work without "out-of-character" moments that would be the easier solution.

And yes, each writer is different, and I'd say that probably the biggest cause of discontinuity in the show is the different writers not taking enough care to stay true to previous episodes (especially with jokes) or wanting to do their own take on something like a romance story and as such make it so Fry is still pursuing Leela even though they perhaps could have had more noticeable progress in their relationship from a previous episode. In that Q & A session posted above, DXC said that there will only be seven of the "veteran" writers working the show each day, but some of the other writers may call in with their own ideas from time to time. The same problems and differences as before can and probably will be present with this setup, but I'd like to think that a smaller group plus some sort of guidance from DXC or a communal agreement to pay more attention to the healthy progression of canon and continuity will make things better in this regard.


As I'm sure you've noticed, I don't like to type out quick replies when I'm in an argument. I like to do my best to represent myself as clearly as possible, which for me requires large amounts of text. I don't like to simply reply to an argument. I want to destroy it, or at least make it look less credible by length and evidence. You write one sentence stating an opinion. I write 10 countering it with as much evidence as I deem necessary. It's sort-of a slightly more meaningful filibuster.

That's some nice self-analysis there, Fistful. Despite the obvious passion behind your posts, seeing you use the phrase "destroy an argument" really sums things up pretty well!  tongue
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #149 on: 10-15-2009 18:57 »
« Last Edit on: 10-15-2009 21:49 »

No, there'll be out-of-character episodes where he takes her for granted and ignores her needs because the writers will want to have her cross at him for the sake of a story - like Homer and Marge at least twice a season on The Simpsons.

This is because it's a cartoon, and the characters will act however they need to in order to drive whatever half-hour plot is occurring on that particular week. There is also the fact that there are a bunch of different writers with different priorities and comedic sensibilities.

Couldn't you say that about any sitcom? Futurama doesn't reset week after week because it's a cartoon. It resets because like most fictional TV shows, its episodes are supposed to be self-contained (this is especially true of sitcoms).

I've been arguing that it doesn't have to be this way. They can be self-contained and honor earlier stories/character development as well. It really would only take the tiniest iota (also great) of extra work to fulfill this, along with respect for the loyal fans and the show's own world and characters. It really wouldn't be that difficult.

Ted's post

Now this is what I'm talking about! Bravo Sir (pronounced Bray-bo sur)!

The episodes that place more importance on story rather than character usually end up weak. This is because any show (at least any other Sci-Fi show) can do a story. Only Futurama can do it with its unique characters. The writers should let Futurama's freak flag fly.

Also, good point on the writing staff. Complaints aside, there were individual moments and chapters in the movies that managed to have the same wit as the TV series (and ITWGY is perfect throughout), so the small writing staff won't really be a problem as long as they are willing to work as hard as they can. I'd love to see DXC decide to keep the entire writing team cohesive, so that the show can be quality all-around, rather than having it be held back by too much resetting and a lack of progression and cohesiveness. I really hope that's what they're doing right now.

Finally, yes, I am quite a fierce (fist in the air, Blue Steel expression) debater (oh, how I wonder how someone will take that). It's how I roll! (puts on sunglasses, drives away in dad's pickup truck while ACDC plays)
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #150 on: 10-15-2009 21:50 »

Thanks again, FoA.

Also, good point on the writing staff. I think that complaints aside, at their best the movies managed to have the same wit as the TV series (and ITWGY is near perfect), so the small writing staff won't really be a problem as long as they are willing to work as hard as they can. I'd love to see DXC decide to keep the entire writing team cohesive, so that the show can be quality all-around, rather than having it be held back by too much resetting and a lack of progression and cohesiveness. I really hope that's what they're doing right now.

I hope so too (as you know).

I was also feeling a little bit sad that the writing staff would be smaller due to the budget issues, but DXC did say they'd still keep in touch with some of the other writers and when you think about it, it wasn't that many writers who wrote a more substantial number of episodes anyway. Plus, although I'd say that Ken Keeler and DXC himself have the most consistently strong episodes to their names, the majority of the "great" episodes have been written by various writers and their strengths do seem to be spread all around, so there's reason to hope.

Finally, yes, I am quite a fierce (fist in the air, Blue Steel expression) debater (oh, how I wonder how someone will take that).

Yes, and your Ferrari is nice too. I can't wait until you achieve Magnum with your posts...
Gorky

Space Pope
****
« Reply #151 on: 10-15-2009 22:06 »

As far as the writers' various strengths go, if you want to view it purely in terms of character development or overt shippiness, pretty much everyone has an excellent episode to their name. Verrone wrote "The Sting", Kaplan wrote "Parasites Lost" ('course, he's also responsible for "The Beast with a Billion Backs"), Horsted wrote "A Flight to Remember", Morton wrote "The Cyberhouse Rules", Odenkirk wrote "The Farnsworth Parabox", and of course DXC and Ken Keeler have episodes like "The Why of Fry" and "Time Keeps on Slipping." That leads me to believe that, when it comes to egregious "abuses" of the characters' established traits, it is a group decision. Every writer is clearly capable of crafting episodes with a certain emotional resonance and respect for continuity, but I am under the impression that, if the room loves a certain idea--regardless of how it might affect the other aspects of the show--then it will be used.
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #152 on: 10-15-2009 22:25 »

Gorky, that list of the various writers' "great" episodes (and even examples of some of their less successful ones, including the BWABB connection) was exactly what I had in mind, I just couldn't be bothered to make sure I was correct in my beliefs of who wrote what. So...shame on me and kudos to you!

As for the group decisions, that's another area of concern because yes, the group mentality can certainly play a part in the production of episodes with less continuity or attention to details or the best character development possible. The hope is still there though; they are indeed capable of excellent work, and as has been said before, it seems like it shouldn't be that difficult for them to maintain a better respect for the 'ship and continuity in general.

FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #153 on: 10-15-2009 23:32 »
« Last Edit on: 10-15-2009 23:34 »

We all know one of the writers said in a commentary that they never let continuity get in the way of a good joke/story. My problem is that I feel most of these instances when they forgo continuity, it's led to weaker stories/jokes. It's totally possible to respect and build upon earlier stories and character development without losing the show's self-containedness or funny. There is little to no reason to have to dump on continuity in order to craft great stories (unless the writers are less talented than I give them credit for).

My hope is that the writers realize that in order to craft a better Futurama for its return. Nobody's perfect, and the writers have made mistakes in the past. The original series, as great as it is, had far too much resetting going on. The first return was wasted by the writers thinking too much about how much fun they would have writing the episodes, and not enough about how much fun the fan would have watching them ('cept ITWGY (duh! Of course I'd exclude that one!)). This second return should have the writers analyze the mistakes they made in the past and avoid similar ones, while at the same time looking at the successes and building off of them. They can do it. I believe (X-Files whistle).
Svip

DOOP Secretary
*
« Reply #154 on: 10-15-2009 23:39 »

We all know one of the writers said in a commentary that they never let continuity get in the way of a good joke/story.

"Never" is a bit harsh qualifier here.  I have heard commentaries, where they clearly specify that due to "continuity" issues, they couldn't do this or that.

The point is, the writers have a level of "continuity", when something is on a too high level, it can't be changed.  Such a thing is the character's personality and "position" (not title, but in relation to the other things and people in the story).

So while, yes, they have disregarded continuity on several occasions for stories and laughs, they don't do it unquestioned.
Marcus
Starship Captain
****
« Reply #155 on: 10-15-2009 23:50 »

it seems like it shouldn't be that difficult for them to maintain a better respect for the 'ship and continuity in general.
It probably isn't, no; but I idly wonder if 'respect for the ship and continuity in general' is as high a priority for the writers as it is for us. To us, it's purely a question of story-telling; to them, it's _also_ a question of product, a commercial venture. Hardcore fans who post on forums have 1 set of priorities for their episodes, casual fans might have another, vaguely interested potenial viewers a third - writers have to write for all 3 groups. Dinnae fash if our priorities don't come up in every episode!
Tedward

Professor
*
« Reply #156 on: 10-16-2009 00:04 »

That's another good point, Marcus. Again, I do feel a bit selfish for expecting what could be considered "too much," but depending on how you look at it we certainly could be asking for just the best that the show can offer, which is what those who work on the show want as well. But yes, this depends on what the differing views on the current or needed definition of "the best" are. Having a different network may attract new fans for the show, but they might not understand the nuances of the building upon previous character development and things such as that (but that doesn't have to be a problem, since the episodes would still be self-contained stories that just happen to have an even greater depth if you've happened to have seen prior episodes as well). At least they apparently will have a bit more freedom with Comedy Central (though I assume that this freedom has more to do with the censors than the actual stories), but yes, this is something that we'll have to keep in mind.
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #157 on: 10-16-2009 00:16 »

"Never" is a bit harsh qualifier here.  I have heard commentaries, where they clearly specify that due to "continuity" issues, they couldn't do this or that.

The point is, the writers have a level of "continuity", when something is on a too high level, it can't be changed.  Such a thing is the character's personality and "position" (not title, but in relation to the other things and people in the story).

So while, yes, they have disregarded continuity on several occasions for stories and laughs, they don't do it unquestioned.

Fair enough. I guess I was a bit too harsh. They've maintained a generally good sense of continuity in the TV series (I won't hold the first three movies where they did ignore a bit to a lot of continuity and character stuff for the sake of their stories (which weren't very good) against them here), even if not as much as I would have liked. I do hope that the continuity is better (but not turning the series into a serial) in the next season.

it seems like it shouldn't be that difficult for them to maintain a better respect for the 'ship and continuity in general.
It probably isn't, no; but I idly wonder if 'respect for the ship and continuity in general' is as high a priority for the writers as it is for us. To us, it's purely a question of story-telling; to them, it's _also_ a question of product, a commercial venture. Hardcore fans who post on forums have 1 set of priorities for their episodes, casual fans might have another, vaguely interested potenial viewers a third - writers have to write for all 3 groups. Dinnae fash if our priorities don't come up in every episode!

I'll take a shot at this one.

As I've mentioned maaaaaaaaaaaaany times before, I don't think that a better sense of continuity would make the series less inviting. Look at episodes like Leela's Homeworld or The Why of Fry. Those are episodes that come at the very end of long going arcs in the series, that reference previous episodes important to the plot, but it's done in such a way that it's enjoyable and understandable even if you didn't watch the previous episodes in the arc. That's what me and Tedwardo (sort-of like your earlier suggestion, but more Ward-y) are asking for. Just enough of a better sense of continuity to make the series feel cohesive, so it doesn't feel like any development won't mean anything in the long run (i.e. so it doesn't feel like a big reset-a-thon).

There is no reason that the writers should have to drop one part of the show's narrative to appease another. It's much harder to write a fantastic series than it is to write a good one (as Tedwardo sort-of mentioned earlier ("It's just that there's the hope that the writers would do their best to be creative and make their plots work without "out-of-character" moments that would be the easier solution.")). The writers could always hold-back and still pump out an entertaining show. But if they want to pump out a completely amazing one, then they're going to have to try even harder than they already do. They have to get over any fear that making the show a bit deeper would make it less inviting. That's simply not true. The ends of those arcs and the generally good continuity of the series prove that.The kids will do fine in the deep end as long as you encourage them and give them some floaties.
Marcus
Starship Captain
****
« Reply #158 on: 10-16-2009 00:37 »

I'm just saying, we're only fans. We don't know what it's like to produce mass-consumer 'art', where the pressures come from, or what sort of balancing acts are required when art meets mass-market appeal. If it's funny, clever, and bears no relation to BBS and BWABB, I'll be thrilled! big grin
FistfulOAwesome

Starship Captain
****
« Reply #159 on: 10-16-2009 00:49 »

I know, and I'm thankful for all the greatness the writers have managed to do (I mean, look how much I care!) and I'm respectful of the balance between art and consumerism the writers have to deal with. I just want Futurama to be the very best that it can be, and I think my suggestions (because the writers totally read this board (do they? (Hi DXC! Love the show!))) would do just that. They would be able to appeal to older fans while still being self-contained enough to appeal to new ones. That way, everyone gets to appreciate Futurama on the level they are comfortable at. If any team of writers can do that, I hope it's this one.
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