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ALequalsGREAT

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« Reply #40 on: 06-26-2008 16:06 »
« Last Edit on: 06-26-2008 16:06 »

Agreed with Binder re: BBS. I found the temporal events to be mostly independent of the series (excepting Jurassic; BBS gave me the "Why?" behind the 'fast-fossilization'). In context, both Jurassic and  Fryrish made complete sense to me, and the film did not change what I had already witnessed.
I unfortunately did not know this forum existed when I saw BBS and couldn't post about it then- thanks for letting me do so now   wink


Xanfor

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« Reply #41 on: 06-26-2008 16:29 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Officer 1BDI:

I couldn't get over the idea that Yivo raped an entire universe's population and they just sat back and accepted it, and then turned around and dated/joined him.  I thought it was too creepy, and I fell out of sync with the movie at that point and just couldn't get back into it after that, even when I rewatched the film (with commentary, which was awesome as usual).

My dictionary defines rape as "the crime of forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse against her will". Remind me to get a less sexist dictionary, will ya?

So, let's say "forcing a person to have sexual intercourse against their will" is the definition we'll agree upon. I don't recall Yivo having sexual intercourse with anyone. Indeed, the greatest non-funny non sequitur of the film is the fact that Yivo is capable of mating yet has no logical reason for being able to do so. It's not exactly like shklee needs to.

I believe what Yivo initially did was wrong, very wrong, but not violating enough by the standards of the Futurama universe that it wasn't forgivable. A tentacle to the back of the neck, really? Who besides Captain Jack paired with a Sontaran can turn that into any more than a standard alien invasive probing? And shklee took them all out to a night on the town to make up for it. I can't say that this explanation can actually make one feel any more consoled concerning what happened, but to paraphrase Tongue Luck, "Universe Gamma is a complicated character! It doesn't have to make sense!"
trickster381

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« Reply #42 on: 06-26-2008 16:36 »

I want to watch it online so I don't have to wait a week frown

But I have to buy the DVD for the amazing commentary anyway  smile
Officer 1BDI

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« Reply #43 on: 06-26-2008 16:41 »
« Last Edit on: 06-26-2008 16:41 »

   
Quote
So, let's say "forcing a person to have sexual intercourse against their will" is the definition we'll agree upon. I don't recall Yivo having sexual intercourse with anyone. Indeed, the greatest non-funny non sequitur of the film is the fact that Yivo is capable of mating yet has no logical reason for being able to do so. It's not exactly like shklee needs to.

I want to agree with you, Xanfor; in fact, your explanation is what I was hoping for after seeing the trailer.  But if Yivo shklerself admitted what shkler original intentions were:

     
Quote
Allow me to explain!  Granted, at first I desired only to bang out a quick cheap one with your universe, but it's your own fault!  Your universe dresses provocatively.

Shklee never specifically says, "Ok, so I was doing your necks," but I don't know how else to interpret "banging out a cheap quick one".  And shkler (thank you, Xanfor) turning around and blaming the universe for essentially being too attractive really didn't help shkler case.
Xanfor

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« Reply #44 on: 06-26-2008 16:50 »
« Last Edit on: 06-26-2008 16:50 »

Well, keep in mind that shklee still hadn't finished connecting shklerself to everyone in the universe yet, namely, Leela was still free. Yivo may have desired only to bang out a quick cheap one, but hadn't yet gotten to the stage where it was possible. In other words, Leela could have interrupted just as the final article of clothing was about to be removed, not in the middle of the act.

Also, the pronouns (according to the shklmancy shklubtitles) are "shklee", "shkler", and "shklim". I just use "shklee" and "shkler" because I see Yivo as female.
Officer 1BDI

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« Reply #45 on: 06-26-2008 16:56 »
« Last Edit on: 06-26-2008 16:56 »

Admittingly, that's actually something I hadn't considered before.  I'm not sure it makes me feel any better about the whole thing, but at least it's another way to look at it.

Ah, the subtitles.  Why didn't I think of that?   tongue
winna

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« Reply #46 on: 06-26-2008 16:58 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Binder:
The way I see the time travel events of BBS, is that the events we had seen in Jurassic Bark and Luck of the Fryish happened both as they did in THOSE episodes and happened as affected by the events of BBS in two separate universes. So, depending on which you prefer, you have the universe of your choice.
Jurassic Bark still chokes me up post-BBS, so to me no harm done.

You could propose that, but time travel isn't explicitly defined in the Futurama universe.  It's also hinted that to a greater degree time travel works on one timeline throughout.... or is Fry not really his own grandfather?  At any rate... it detracted from the original stories, even if it is in the back of your mind.... and it didn't need to be that way.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
Now there are others coming forth and saying:  "It killed the emotional impact of almost every great episode, and for no reason!"

I think there were a number of people who had problems with BBS when it came out.  I still don't think it was complete crap, just not on par with the standard I expect with Futurama.  I also didn't talk bad about the first movie to a huge extent because it's contextual based thing.  The movie came out 5 years after production had ended on the series... people needed hope, and the movie gave them that.  It wasn't perfect, but as most everyone said, it was new futurama.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
I almost felt like Groening and company were giving the fans "The Finger"  The Fans, the one who have watched every DVD at least 50 times and allowed Groening to make an obscene amount of money in royalties deserved better than that crapfest.

Like I said.  I don't think BBS is the worst thing ever.  I also think a large part of the problem was that they were trying too hard.  They wanted to make a reference to every little thing about the series, but I don't think they were trying to fuck us over.  It was also a direct to video stunt..... and I've already expounded upon how I feel about that.  The people who work on the show see the comments about their work though, and I think they sincerely care about their fan base.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
Beast is much better and it's relgious theme is making this Christian-turned-Agnostic laugh his ass off. 

Agreed... and the religious stuff was genuinely funny.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
As for Colleen and her 5 boyfriends[...]

It's the future... things are different.  I don't agree with it, but Colleen's 5 boyfriends seemed to go along with it.  It was a good source for jokes for about a fifth of the movie.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
Fry - for fucks's sake, get over your co-dependant pathos!  Leela's not going to make you happy.  Your slut-girlfriend Colleen isn't going to make you a man!  Get over being some passive jerk one step below Kif on the "Backbone-meter".

I don't think Fry's that much of a schmuck... he seems fairly reasonable other than his infatuation with Leela.... which was actually working out as of The Devil's Hands are Idle Playthings.  He broke up with Colleen, he didn't agree with the relationship and he was done with it.  He was just miserable afterwards because she was a good match for him....  People get upset when they break up after finding someone they thought they connected with, no?


 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
Leela, once again, shows that she's borderline psychocotic.  She doesn't miss a chance to get her "digs" in on Fry, trying to hurt him just for the sake of it.  She loves her misery and loneliness beyond a point of mental illness.

I don't think she got much "digs" on Fry in this one, did she?  She was annoyed by his thing in the end, but that's reasonable for regular people.  She has problems, but she is genuinely looking for someone to make her whole.... it's the snobbish bitchy things you've pointed out before that get in the way of that.  I don't think she loves being miserable, she's quick to jealousy for one thing....  All of her reactions in BWaBB seemed logical to me.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Ralph Snart:
But for the sake of ending this on a positive note, I loved Farnsworth, Wernstrom, Zapp and Amy's funeral dress.  Yi, yi, yi!

I give it a good 4 out of 5 stars.

The characters were great this time around.  Everything ran smoothly... I'm glad it was a better outing.  smile

 
Quote
Originally posted by Officer 1BDI:
ETA: Was anyone else disappointed by the lack of Nibblonians?  I was waiting for Nibbler to come back and explain why he felt it was so pertinent for him to abandon the universe (without his precious Mighty One at that), or at least explain where he went....

It would be nice if the movies weren't disjointed from one another.  I didn't think the Nibblonians were represented well enough in BBS though....  The whole thing needs some super subplot that gets revealed at the end and ties everything together as one.
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« Reply #47 on: 06-26-2008 18:39 »
« Last Edit on: 06-26-2008 18:39 »

 
Quote
Agent 1BDI:

This. This times infinity. Philip, snap the fuck out of it: I'm starting to believe you actually have some deep running psychotic disorder. And Leela... for some reason I found her treatment of Fry more acceptable in this movie, but I think it had less to do with me agreeing with it and more to do with me coming to terms the fact that, yes, she will treat him like this. I've pretty much abandoned the F/L ship at this point. And never mind Leela's completely unexpected and practically unexplained change of heart towards Yivo. I ask not for the first time: where the hell did that come from?

Oh Holy Hell!  I have a dedicated shipper who agress with me?  GET OUT!

Yes, I know Fry is suppose to be a 90's type slacker.  Being a slacker doesn't mean being a complete doormat.

And to those who say "Fry broke off with Colleen!"  Yes, he did and acted like some teen-aged emo-fag ansty-loser.  Isn't he suppose to be around 32 years old now?  You don't always get what you want out of life.  Get over it!  (The same rant extends to Leela).

The writers are making both Fry and Leela totally unlikable people.  I would add Zapp to the unlikable list, but much like Dan Fielding of Night Court (and me when I was in my early twenties   flirt ), he's just so over-the-top that people can't help but howl out in laughter when he speaks or one of his plans actually works.  (The only other time recently that I've laughed so hard when Leela found Zapp and Amy, post-coitus and Zapp explaining it to Leela was watching Star Wreck and hearing Lt. Dwarf say, "I guess it's a passable day to die." )

 
Quote
Winna:

Like I said. I don't think BBS is the worst thing ever. I also think a large part of the problem was that they were trying too hard. They wanted to make a reference to every little thing about the series, but I don't think they were trying to fuck us over. It was also a direct to video stunt..... and I've already expounded upon how I feel about that. The people who work on the show see the comments about their work though, and I think they sincerely care about their fan base.

Yes, they may care about their fan base, but a certain amount of ego comes into play, the writers, producers and directors know that this may be the last and only chance for them to write for "them" and with the relaxed standards of being direct to DVD vs. being on a broadcaast station, a certain amount of freedom follows.  I'm aboslutely convinced all the time-travel crap was crap from the eggheads to give themselves a little ego-boost by announcing to each other, "Only 3% of our viewers will get that one!  Whhooo!"

I went into Beast knowing that they were going to crap all over the character development that they spent years developing.  They didn't disappoint me.  Fry and Leela were back to being increasingly dysfunctional and unlikable beings.  If the last DVD has them getting paired off and married, then by some sort of miracle (and I do hope it happens) and it gets renewed for a season or two of episodes or another DVD, do they use that damned RESET button again?  Or are they going to have Fry and Leela as a dysfunctional couple?  Every ep she would be committing spousal abuse to Fry and like the weak-willed person he has become, he'll take it.  Oh God, I miss the Fry who told the Professional Beach Bully, "Fifty Bucks?  Not even if she was my girlfriend!"

Thankfully, Bender went back to his narcissic, self-serving roots.  By God, that scene of him throwing his firstborn into the firey depths of Hell was golden.  At his best, he can out-evil Santa-bot and the Robot Devil.  At least the writers proved that Bender does have some sort of emotional ties with Fry (and to Leela, but to a much lesser extent) with his actions in Beast.

Actually, I could have done with 90% less Leela and 500% more Zapp in this movie.  Of course the lust-driven Leela-lovers will say she was the only one who kept her head.  Not that at all, even in "Heaven" she was miserable.  She's just a miserable, snobby bitch of a woman.

And yes, I "read" that she truely hates Fry.  She wants him gone, she treats him like crap, she wasn't happy to put just one laser site between his eyes, but three (damned, she's flexible) and when she kicked Fry to reveal that Yivo was raping them, she never looked back to see if she harmed Fry at all.

Her last comment to Fry sealed the deal for me:  She's fucking psycho.  She had no problem in getting married to Lars and rubbing it in Fry's face, but to make the comment, "You forgot about me fast enough when you met Colleen," strikes me as being very possessive of Fry, even though she apparently hates him.

Enough of that - everybody knows that I've turned into the ANTI-SHIPPER, completely because of BBS.

If the writers want to make a story for the end that brings me back to the SHIPPERS camp, they better contact Venus or Missy because they KNOW how to write a shippy story.  The current cast of clowns wouldn't know shippy if Seymore's fossilized corpse showed up at Rough Draft Studios.

And to quote my long-lost, close friend, "Mad Dog Buzz Sawyer", who is no longer with us and by God I miss him more each day goes by:

THAT'S MY OXYGEN!  DEAL WITH IT!
Books

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« Reply #48 on: 06-26-2008 19:15 »

Are people seriously saying they liked BBS more than BWaBB? Really? Beast With a Billion Back was the far superior movie. It wasn't perfect, the Coleen thing seemed out of place and the endings for both films were unsatisfying. But I honestly can't understand how BBS would in any way, be better. The comedy and story were much more refined in Beast. And you can sit back and just be entertained by it, rather than thinking about it like BBS.

BBS: 6.5/10
BWaBB: 9/10

/2 cents
winna

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« Reply #49 on: 06-26-2008 20:04 »

The time travel crap was most definitely a yahoo look what we did there moment.... but the show's fanbase loves overly complicated intelligent theoretical physics type things.  I don't think they intentionally said to themselves "Look at us write garbage and people buy it!"... I think they just messed up.... their intentions were good "connect Fry & Leela in an emotional jaw dropping capacity", but in doing so they messed things up.

You have to also realize this is a situational slapstick comedy... kicking fry because he's infected with an alien and not caring about fry afterwards is the joke.  They can have sentimental moments too... but it's a balance. 

Leela pointing lazers at Fry was reasonable too... at that point of the movie he was what appeared to be the interface of an interdimensional being that was scooping people up a la the body snatchers.  And it was logical for her to be suspicious of all of Yivo's promised well being the whole time.  There's a saying along the lines of If it sounds too good to be true... something something...  After awhile she realized it really was as good as it appeared to be... that seems normal to me. 

I'm going to say Fry handled his breakup well.  He stood up like a man... got angry... and said I'm done with it.  Afterwards is when he got all emotional.... to be honest I don't see the characters in their early 30s.... I see them in their mid-late 20s.... And I've seen lots of people deal with their relationships in just as bad, if not worse ways.

As for the reset button, you're absolutely right.  Fry & Leela can't live happily ever after unless the series ends completely.  It's one of television's most inherant rules....  If you want something emotional, shippy, and ending on a high note... I suppose the only place you'll get your fix is with fanfiction.

I heard something on a movie recently... Happy Endings are only stories that haven't finished yet.

Also, I said BWaBB was a better movie like 6 or 7 months ago....  The only person I've seen outright disagree with me was my old roommate, and he didn't see all of BWaBB, and he's probably more of a luke warm fan.... he doesn't have much invested in the characters or their relationships.
Xanfor

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« Reply #50 on: 06-26-2008 20:17 »

You did it, Ralph. You know how fundamentally attached to the 'Ship I am, you do. Way to stomp on my convictions like a nerd's face.

Thus, I hereby present a dichotomy: Futurama: TOS, consisting of "Space Pilot 3000" to "Bender Must Not Be Allowed on TV" (optionally including "Devil's Hands" ), and Futurama: TDT (The Dysfunctional Tetralogy), consisting all the movies. Much like the similar dualities of Original Series Star Trek and Everything That Followed, as well as Classic Doctor Who and NuWho, both sides have their advantages, but are different enough that an accurate comparison cannot truely be made.

Since Futurama: TDT is currently the official canon, I will no longer be officially shipping Fry and Leela, but will instead hope that Fry someday finds inner solace, preferably located somewhere near to more of his spine that he is slowly beginning to discover he has (see winna's post above), and hope that Leela eventually becomes so bitter that Mom names her as her successor. Quiet, Ignar. Whereas in the comfort of Futurama: TOS, I can comfortably write fanfic and ship to my deeply oppressed heart's content.

That being said, BWaBB is the best in the TDT series so for. I hope we see more like it. Go on Leela, keep it up, you're so close!
winna

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« Reply #51 on: 06-26-2008 20:22 »

To be honest, I think that would be the best way for the show to play out.  Honestly.
SonicPanther

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« Reply #52 on: 06-26-2008 22:50 »

It really frustrates me that I'm able to read these criticisms and agree with most of the points they make, but still maintain my original opinion. I don't even know how, but I can't agree with any different opinions than my own on these movies, even though I agree with the details that make up those opinions. I feel like I'm missing the big picture.

I much prefer BBS, by the way. Is it just me, or are the writers focusing on one element per movie? With BBS it was story, with BWABB it was humor, and it seems like it'll be parody in the next one. I don't understand why they're doing that - what made Futurama so great was how all of these elements would come together in an episode.
winna

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« Reply #53 on: 06-26-2008 23:31 »

You know, my roommate that disagreed with me said quite the opposite of what you said... He said the first movie was funnier to him, and the second movie was all story...  Perhaps some of what you said rings true though.... Perhaps the writers on some level wanted each movie to stand out on its own...  I think they're getting closer back to form though....
Sine Wave

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« Reply #54 on: 06-26-2008 23:39 »

I've only watched BWABB once (just finished), and I had a frustrating day, and I'm about to pass out, so this review and my state of viewing the movie may be biased, but I didn't like it that much. Much of what was supposed to be funny came off as just callus and mean (Bender giving up his firstborn? Plus half his other lines in the movie? Not funny at all. Just heartless). The whole Yivo relationship was unsettling to me as well. At first everyone seemed brainwashed, but then it turns out they just honestly enjoy it, then Leela converts for no reason other than being alone, I guess, and then Fry gets off without any blame for ruining "heaven." I don't know. Maybe I'm too attached to the characters to laugh at them. Maybe I like monogamy too much. Maybe I need more sleep.

For me, the most interesting parts were the very beginning and very end. Bender and Leela seemed to imply Leela and Fry had had a thing together between the movies ("Uh-oh, Fry's bimbo's are gonna meet", "You forgot about me quick enough when you met Colleen" ). So lets hear it for Fry for ruining his relationships with Leela and Yivo.
Frida Waterfall

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« Reply #55 on: 06-27-2008 00:13 »

Okay, I'm just going to spat some things out willy-nilly on the new movies. This entire thread may eventually get deleted, anyways. (I apologize if I repeat myself, I just want to be with the crowd at the moment)

"Bender's Big Score" had potential with the time travel plot incorporated. At first, I was expecting a big epic through time and space with connections with the Nibblonians and the Space Entinity. However, I felt that the Futurama staff did not use time travel to the plot's advantage. By making time travel a giant paradox-free gimic, they made the movie too easy to write. For a time travel movie, it sure didn't use time travel alot. In fact, we barely saw any time travel to other places than the 2000-2012 period. To me, it felt like the crew limited themselves to one key location to key around with. I'd also like to mention how not only was the time travel almost pointless to the main running plot, it completely destroyed past canon for me. It wasn't so much for me that they destroyed "Jurassic Bark". Most of the events in Jurassic Bark could still exist even with the time travel corruption. It did brush out any emotion that existed in the final scene, though, now knowing that Seymour will only get second-hand blasted to death. However, the mess that it made for "Luck of the Fryrish" can't be fixed for me unless if they totally remade the movie. The events in "Luck of the Fryrish" couldn't occur with the time traveling, as much as you try to look at it. Yancy just wouldn't name his kid after his brother if he were still alive- that would be silly considering he has a family name to carry on.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I can honestly not pinpoint the main plotline in "Bender's Big Score" nor any big-time leading characters. In a basic epic movie formula, you need to have characters that take on the "hero" image. I cannot think of a single character that meets that definition. Bender's involvement was at the beginning and at the end. Hermes was toned-out until the battle scene. Leela was stuck on Lars the entire movie. All Fry really did was cry and whine that he wasn't with Leela.

My conclusion is that "Bender's Big Score" is simply not an epic. It could have been an epic with time travel alone. But instead of just depending on time travel to cause all the conflict, they had to add in the "Internet Nudist Scammers Scamming Over Earth" element, which just made it too much. And it's not even like that was such a big plot. For Futurama's scale, a group or cult or leader taking over Earth is episode-epic. It happens quite often in episodes alone. A takeover of Earth just could not be movie-epic for Futurama. This is where "The Beast with a Billion Backs" separates itself from "Bender's Big Score"- "Beast" it the universal plot more suitable for the big movie. "Bender's Big Score" couldn't match that level of epicness even if they use both time travel and the scammer's plot. Besides, the more elements you use such as time travel and takeovers just makes the movie feel more crowded and confusing.

By the way, I need to write some thourough reviews on the movies soon.
Frida Waterfall

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« Reply #56 on: 06-27-2008 00:29 »

Going from my same train of thoughts from my previous post...

One of the things I wanted to mention at the moment was Bender. I preferred Bender much more in "The Beast with a Billion Backs" than "Bender's Big Score". I think the title alone just describes how the writers went about Bender in "Bender's Big Score". For the five-year haitus that the writers went through, Bender became the "breakout character" amongst casual viewers. When the oppertunity of a movie came around, it seems to me that they didn't want to dissapoint those fans and made sure that Bender definitely had plenty of screen time to hog. Though it wasn't totally obvious, you could tell that Bender in "Bender's Big Score" had too big of an ego. There were just one too many times for me when he declared himself "great". I know its in his personality, but that's not the part that I think fans really want. He was much more preferable in "The Beast with a Billion Backs". "Beast" gave me the Bender I want to see. I love Bender as the cruel robot he is. My absolute favourite humorous part of the movie was the entire "first-born son for an army scene". However, I didn't think he was the right robot for the role of leading the army of robots.

(I just kind of went everywhere in that paragraph above)...

Ever since I watched "The Beast with a Billion Backs", I'm starting to get the idea that Fry and Leela are going through a midlife crisis- particularly in the field of romantic relationships. Fry and Leela are both probably at the age of 33 at this point, so they're kind of at the age to get into this stuff (early though). (I should probably take this to the relationship thread later when I'm thinking more straight).

Sorry for the possible double post. I did have some stuff to say, but I didn't want to edit my previous post since some members are probably already reading it at this point and don't want to get flustered when they see my post with a new addition after a reply and since this thread is bound to be deleted, it should be okay.
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« Reply #57 on: 06-27-2008 00:41 »

@ Frida:

You beat yourself up too much.  You've told me before that you're afraid to write something that isn't volumes long for fear of missing something.  I think that you hit several nails on the head in a relatively short post.

 
Quote
Sine Wave:

For me, the most interesting parts were the very beginning and very end. Bender and Leela seemed to imply Leela and Fry had had a thing together between the movies ("Uh-oh, Fry's bimbo's are gonna meet", "You forgot about me quick enough when you met Colleen" ). So lets hear it for Fry for ruining his relationships with Leela and Yivo.

Oh?  You immediately feel Fry's to blame if a relationship between Leela and him didn't work out?  Sorry to tell ya, but Leela's not my idea of somebody I'd want to personally know, much less date.

Despite Bender's statement about "Fry's Bimbos", I rather doubt if Leela has bothered to give Fry the time of day - rather it was a comment to aggravate Chesty McNag-Nag.

I take her comment at the end as her being jealous/angry that Fry would find somebody else to love/lust over.  Despite the shitty way she treats him, she's rather possessive of him.  My personal assumption - if she has to be miserable, then by God Fry will be miserable too.  He's her 'safe-guy'; always there for her and if she can't ever find a guy, then she'll 'settle' for Fry.

All I can say is, "Run, Fry!  Run like the wind!"  Being married to that insensitive, self-centered, status-seeking nag would be a true Hell on Earth.

Ralph 'awaiting the angry Leela fans response' Snart
Frida Waterfall

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« Reply #58 on: 06-27-2008 01:00 »

I just want to push something else out into the open a bit more on-topic.

Fry and Leela recently have been very out-of-character. I know everybody is upset and infuriated by this, but the only people we can blame are the writers. The writers write these characters, think of their motives, and create their actions. For a show that's life and resurrection depended on the fanbase solely alone, I haven't seen the crew really reaching out and looking for what the fans want. I'd like to know if they even re-watched their older episodes before going to work on these newer ones. What they did to "Bender's Big Score" was unforgivable. After "Bender's Big Score", I just wish them to recall all the DVDs and make public announcements that they're re-doing "Bender's Big Score" to make it really what the fans want- a Futurama epic with lots of time travel, some Fry/Bender friendship, lightly done Fry/Leela relationship, plenty of humor to go around, and most importantly to all fans of the series, a full return of Fry's prophecy with Nibblonians and all.
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« Reply #59 on: 06-27-2008 01:19 »

Sorry Frida, the writers seem to be doing their own thing with no regard to the fans.  I knew we were in for a ride (and not a plesant one) when BBS started with no mention of Devil's Hands.  Then things went downhill.

The rest is history.
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« Reply #60 on: 06-27-2008 01:37 »
« Last Edit on: 06-27-2008 01:37 »

dammit late for the temporary party   mad

I like Futurama, particularly if watched with Winna

also, in these tough times this is my first post in on topic for absolutely bloody ages
winna

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« Reply #61 on: 06-27-2008 02:36 »
« Last Edit on: 06-27-2008 02:36 »

Awww... you're sweet mookie427.... I don't even remember why I was upset in the first place....

I think you hit the nail on the head Frida... your explanations are clearcut and precise, and I agree with you.

I still don't think the writers were out to fuck over the fanbase.... it is their fault... but I honestly think they were trying... trying for epic.... and a lot of BBS plays off eachother to try and force the story along (the problem with the movie)... And here's the thing here.... unfortunately for us, the movies are now canon.... they can't be recalled and remade.... that would suck shit too.  What we can hope for though.... is that the writers and creators of the show hear what we're saying.... that they get the feel for the show again and do better in the future.  I think they're getting in the swing of things though....  I really didn't like that nudist scammer plot...   roll eyes

I also don't think Leela is the whole problem of that relationship... Fry isn't exactly the catch of the day.... and I understand why Ralph says give the underdog a chance.... But... how much has Fry tried to improve himself over the years?  Should people really get into relationships with slackers just because they love eachother?  Maybe... but it's something to think about.

I really liked Xanfor's suggestion... if the series is to continue... it would be better if Fry & Leela went into friends mode.... They make great friends... but one shouldn't abuse the other to any serious extent (like what Ralph suggests Leela is doing with Fry).... possibly the writers can give them other more meaningful relationships (unfortunately, writing new characters into a series sucks dick too)... but Xanfor had a good proposition.
OrpheusLupus

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« Reply #62 on: 06-27-2008 02:47 »

I'm not ready to declare the writers evil myself, either.  They're in a bit of an odd position altogether, what with the absurdly long hiatus before the show started again and the suddenly change to full length and all.  It might take them a little while to get back into things by your definitions, but the movies certainly haven't been absolutely awful, horrid things.

Let's not forget that they also had to make things somewhat accessible for new people.  The irony is (while I myself like the movies just fine) from what I've seen people who are new to the series seem to like it better than a lot of people who were fans for a long time.  Perhaps it's worked too well.
Ralph Snart

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« Reply #63 on: 06-27-2008 05:09 »

 
Quote
They make great friends... but one shouldn't abuse the other to any serious extent (like what Ralph suggests Leela is doing with Fry)....

That I totally agree with.   The trio are at their best augmenting and helping each other.  The Honking is a great episode showing the deep friendship between the three.  Bicyclops showed that Leela has a strong sense of duty (which augments her Martyr complex) and Fry shows taht he isn't a complete doofus - he figured out that Leela was being conned and saved her at the last moment.  Leela and Bender went with Fry to retrieve his 7 leaf clover and later to rob a grave.  You don't get friendships any deeper than that.

The thing that upset the dynamics was Fry falling in love with Leela.  Leela the friend has several positive attributes, but Leela the love intrest just screws the dynamics.  Parasites Lost shows just how hypocritical Leela is about love and acceptance:  She wants to be accepted for who and what she is, yet she can't accept Fry for who and what he is.

The happy-go-lucky Fry is stuck in this infactuation loop and Leela seems to enjoy her position of the person being persued.  She can say NO and feel just a little more superior that not only is she higher ranking in the company, she now has a person who sees her as some sort of Goddess.

Granted, Fry doesn't seem to have a lot going for him.  Yes, he's a great friend who has placed his life on the line at least twice for Leela.  Neither time was trying to score points with her and he didn't use the opportunity to take advantage of Leela.  For all his "slackerness", he is a great friend, if somewhat impulsive and his roommate is a pathological liar and theif. 

Then there's Bender, capable of doing insanely selfish and cruel things, yet he draws limits on what he'll do to Fry and Leela.  Sometimes he'll even risk himself to help them (Bender Gets Made, he takes the chance of being killed by the Robot Mafia by protecting Fry, Leela and Nibbler from them).

The triefa are great as a team but the Fry/Leela shipper arc just ruins the dynamics - it gives Leela way too much power over Fry and Fry comes accross as emotionally weak and borderline stalkerish.

I've also stated before that because of the pending cancellation, things were speeded up to tie up some loose ends:  Leela's Background and parents, getting Fry and Leela closer emotionally, both growing during the fourth season.  Fry becoming less the mindless slacker (but still had his moments), Leela less domineering and beginning to enjoy life more.  The two did seem to be on a course for a symbiotic type of permament relationship.

Then the show got cancelled.  We were left with the open-ended Devil's Hands where Leela was going to sacrifice her left hand to hear the Opera Fry wrote for her, and Fry sacrificed the robotic hands that allowed his inner beauty to be transformed to vivid images via his holophoner.  The sacrifice wasn't lost on Leela - she was the only person left in the building after everybody left, disgusted with Fry.  The Leela there was very compassionate, telling Fry to not stop playing, she wanted to see how it ended.

Then the DVD's came out and trashed the entire fourth season - all of the personal growth that Fry, Leela and Bender had was thrown out the door, to totally not be acknowledged in any way.  I feel that was a very bad move and BBS went in a totally wrong direction.  Beast isn't as bad, but as I have said before, they've taken Fry and Leela from being tormented mid-twenty-somethings with a lot of baggage but also a lot of deep, personal caring for each other.

Now Fry and Leela are almost totally unlikable - their cute dysfunctions have been amped up - even Dr. Phil wouldn't be able to straighten this pair of wackjobs out.

Still, I think I'm going to enjoy the next DVD - I rather doubt if there will be much "ship" since the crew is going into the D&D Fantasy genre.  We get to see Leela's extreme competative spirit during the Demolition Derby.  I can see how reckless she's going to be by hearing her yell, "Everybody tighten your spincters!"

I know that Kelly howled with laughter when she saw Leela and the other Centuars doing an Irsih line dance.  Even though I'm almost totally ignorant of anything involved with the D&D scene I do have a good feeling about this DVD.

If they decide to throw the switch and bring Fry and Leela together, it won't be until the fourth DVD.  DXC has promised that it will end on a sweet note and if it's the last Futurama that's ever done, evrybody will be happy at the end.

With all that's being said on this message board and the fact that -mArc- has some sort of contact with DXC, I'm hoping that he and other writers are reading what the hardcore fans find missing.  That way, if another DVD gets the green-light or if FOX decides to give us another full season  of Futurama, the writers will aim some of the eps towards what the shippers want to see.
ALequalsGREAT

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« Reply #64 on: 06-27-2008 12:32 »
« Last Edit on: 06-27-2008 12:32 »

Whew! Reading this thread is rather arduous   big grin
Much like Sine I turned on BWABB rather late after a long day last night and wasn't able to give it the attention I wanted (many more viewings are in order, plus extra viewings of BBS this weekend, methinks...).
My first impression is that with the addition of so much more humor than the first movie, a lot more of it missed than I would have wanted (I really do need to rewatch it). I loved all of the 50's references both in and out of the movie- faux folds in the "posters" that decorate the box?  <3 <3 I will say that stupid Amazon shipped it in bubble and it got a bit bent, but I suppose that is what we get for a "carbon-neutral" package.
I will discuss the finer points of the movie after I get to really absorb it, but you all have made excellent points- I am anxious to watch it and dissect it a bit. I have to agree with the idea that we are now 50% of the way through this 'story' and feel premature in damning whatever or feeling betrayed; I would be lying if I said I was as happy with the movies as I have been with the series, but I have certainly been entertained and want to see how it ends. With that in mind, I am now even more curious about the role that BG will play.
To quote Hedonismbot in anticipation of the third installment of the saga: "Less reality, more fantasy!"    laff

edit* props to -mArc- for getting the site running in such short time   smile
Sil

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« Reply #65 on: 06-27-2008 14:07 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by Frida Waterfall:
 Source citation, please?

I'd love to believe this. Music in the movies really suffered without the orchestra. Most pieces seemed as if they were just pulled out of a folder of general Futurama transition music and edited for time.

My ears  wink It didn't appear to be reused score, and didn't sound as ass as BBS music-wise.
BeeJay

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« Reply #66 on: 06-29-2008 00:23 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by winna:
 I don't think BBS is the worst thing ever. I also think a large part of the problem was that they were trying too hard. They wanted to make a reference to every little thing about the series, but I don't think they were trying to fuck us over. It was also a direct to video stunt...

I agree that BBS wasn't the worst, and (although I had some problems with it) neither is BWABB.

The primary trouble in any sequel, be it in book, tv episode, or movie form, is in the writing.  A writers' "voice" will change more or less over time, some more than others.

The time lag between the last episodes and BBS, along with the change in format (the 22 minute wrap-it-all-up-neatly format versus the "serialization" format of the movies) could very well be why some viewers are dissatisfied with the new material.  The basic story line must be more detailed and contain more side-stories (often a deadly trap for groups of writers).

The original characters were written for the 22 minute format. Their transition to a serialized format has been a little on the bumpy side. Given the time gap as well, it might have been harder for the writers to "get into the head" of the characters, thus explaining the oddly flat personalities of certain characters in the movies.

<stepping down off soap box>
harpenden

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« Reply #67 on: 06-29-2008 19:19 »

My guess would be that the best predictor of writing quality is writer man-hours. I can't guess at the hours, but it's obvious from the credits that the writing staff for the first two movies  was much, much smaller than the series staff.

I think FOX cheaped out on us.
winna

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« Reply #68 on: 06-29-2008 19:47 »

It was a direct to video type thing....
winna

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« Reply #69 on: 06-29-2008 19:52 »

It was a direct to video type affair....
seattlejohn01

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« Reply #70 on: 06-30-2008 01:47 »
« Last Edit on: 06-30-2008 01:47 »

To me, there's 2 possible reasons for less writers.  The first is, they're taking a chance on these direct to video DVD's.  Just because there's a dedicated fan base like us doesn't necessarily translate to DVD sales, and that's what's driving this: the opportunity for the studio to make money.  They ain't doing it for love, that's for sure.  With the series, they knew how much money they'd make off of it & could budget accordingly; the DVD's were a gamble.  So, they probably didn't budget writing staff like the series for that reason.

The second possible reason is, many of the original writers have obviously moved on to other things since the series was cancelled.  I'm sure Matt Groening & David X Cohen wanted to maintain the quality of the writing, and, to be honest, most writers tend to write formulaic standard stuff; there's not that many writers who can write smart, funny, edgy stuff like this.  So, I'm thinking that Matt & David stuck with those writers who could do the job the way they wanted to see it done, and that meant less writers than the series.
winna

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« Reply #71 on: 06-30-2008 01:58 »

They could hire fan fic writers....
seattlejohn01

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« Reply #72 on: 06-30-2008 02:41 »

True.  Do we have any fan fic PEELers who have done the same kind of scripts/humor?
harpenden

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« Reply #73 on: 06-30-2008 19:48 »

 
Quote
I'm sure Matt Groening & David X Cohen wanted to maintain the quality of the writing, and, to be honest, most writers tend to write formulaic standard stuff; there's not that many writers who can write smart, funny, edgy stuff like this. So, I'm thinking that Matt & David stuck with those writers who could do the job the way they wanted to see it done, and that meant less writers than the series.

I don't follow.  Many posts here suggest that either BBS or BWABB or both were subpar and that this was because the writers had done a bad job; I was suggesting the more logical alternative that the movies were understaffed.  You seem to be suggesting that the movies were understaffed to make sure that all the writers were great, which may well be true but doesn't answer the question of why the movies are bad (if in fact one thinks they are).
winna

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« Reply #74 on: 06-30-2008 21:22 »

 
Quote
An excerpt from SP3k:
New crew? W-What happened to the world of tomorrow!
The other shadow turns on the 64th floor. He knocks on a couch at the robot's ass.
It doesn't look so shiny to me. Shinier than yours, meatbag!
Fry steps into the air.
seattlejohn01

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« Reply #75 on: 06-30-2008 22:01 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by harpenden:
 I don't follow.  Many posts here suggest that either BBS or BWABB or both were subpar and that this was because the writers had done a bad job; I was suggesting the more logical alternative that the movies were understaffed.  You seem to be suggesting that the movies were understaffed to make sure that all the writers were great, which may well be true but doesn't answer the question of why the movies are bad (if in fact one thinks they are).
I don't think either one was bad, but I think BBS was not as close to the series as it should have been.  If Matt & David decided to go with fewer writers, then those on staff were stretched to come up with a workable, funny script.  For example, a series like The Simpsons has approximately 30-40 writers working on each episode, broken down into 2 teams.  They select the funniest gags from each team & marry them into the episode.  If Matt & David didn't employ the normal compliment of writers, then those who did work on it might not get the same creative feedback or competition needed to recapture the spirit of the original series scripts & dialog.  That's what I meant; hopefully it makes sense to you.
harpenden

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« Reply #76 on: 07-01-2008 14:14 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by seattlejohn01:
If Matt & David didn't employ the normal compliment of writers, then those who did work on it might not get the same creative feedback or competition needed to recapture the spirit of the original series scripts & dialog.
The question isn't why a smaller staff might mean poorer writing; it's why there was a smaller staff.  Is it (A) because FOX (who actually employs the writers) wasn't willing to pay for a full staff, or (B) because FOX WAS willing to pay but as you originally suggested, Matt & David thought they could improve the quality by NOT hiring more?
 
Quote
Originally posted by seattlejohn01:
I'm thinking that Matt & David stuck with those writers who could do the job the way they wanted to see it done, and that meant less writers than the series.
If it was (B), then those here who think the job was NOT done well must think Matt & David's slightly crazy-sounding strategy failed badly.  My point is, why blame Matt, David and the writers when the more natural explanation is (A) FOX's cheapness?
La Belle Leela

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« Reply #77 on: 07-02-2008 21:55 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by seattlejohn01:
True.  Do we have any fan fic PEELers who have done the same kind of scripts/humor?

Sure. Go over to TLZ/Madhouse, take your pick!
  big grin
aknightofni

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« Reply #78 on: 07-02-2008 22:57 »

I think its important to remember these 4 movies are also the last possibility of the show returning, and the writers know it. They might have to sacrifice some of the back story, character development and interaction to make it broadly appealing enough to build a fan base. If they want the series to be able to return they can't cater to existing fans, they're arn't enough. They need to try and get more! They are counting on existing fans being able to relate enough to be patient and understanding, while hopefully drawing in new people who are at the "Futur-wha?" stage.

I enjoyed BBS / BWABB thoroughly, not to say I don't see problems with it, characters not behaving quite right as my mind has come to define them  smile but they both still had the laughs, the story, and showed that there is still potential just as long as their given a proper chance.
iceiwynd

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« Reply #79 on: 07-02-2008 23:50 »

The existing fans were enough to revive the show. There's a fairly solid fanbase already; I don't really think what's trying to be accomplished with these movies is to get a bigger fanbase - Futurama has a staff that seems very, uh, supportive and understanding, I guess, with the current fanbase and the hardcore nerds and whatever. Bender's Big Score kinda felt like a love note to them/us.

If it was about getting new people into the show, Bender's Big Score is pretty much the opposite of that, crammed with so many in-stuff (past episode references, several background characters, and the like) that a new fan wouldn't grasp at all and would probably make the plot even more confusing.

I think the out of character bits can more or less be blamed on taking some time to get back into the groove (unfortunately, they don't really have that time) and updating to stories that are four times the length of what they're used to. It's been years and that's a pretty significant change. I don't think it's much of a surprise that things feel a little off.
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